PDA

View Full Version : One Humble Request Plzzz



anatman
08 January 2011, 12:07 AM
This message, because of the personal attacks given in ISKCON books,lectures and also by some of the temple devotees on JagatGuru Shankara Bhagvadpada, his philosophy and his true followers.

Firstly, I in no way am forcing the philosophy of Advaita on ISKCONites in the below views.

Let's start, here you need to understand the history of these philosophers(in brief).

Shankaracharya- Reinstalled Vedic sanathan dharma, as there was a decline in vedic principles and more importance was given to the rituals,
the knowledge part of the vedas was obscured and considered immaterial.

Ramanujacharya- He reintroduced Bhakthi, as the Bhakthi yoga marg started declining and the people were more into the Jnana marg.
This gave rise to mere intellectual discussions with dry heart. Bhakti Yoga is one of the main paths which leads to the purification of the heart and checks the Individual's Ego.

Madhvacharya- Introduced complete duality(Dwaitha), because there were these so-called Advaithic philosophers who were puffed up, egoistic and
took the terms "Aham Brahmasmi" and "Tat tvam asi" literally and were posing as Gods superfically [Just like the self-styled gurus who took over ISKCON(not all the branches, only some)after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, they misled and took advantage of the real sincere seekers for their own personal gain.]

When I read the personal attacks on Shankara and his followers by ISKCONites, I feel dissapointed.

These are serious accusations, terming them as Mayavadis/Impersonalists and Rascal Philosophers etc.

When you point a finger towards others, three fingers point back at you. So check on whether you(ISKCONites) are dedicated on the path that you follow, before terming others as false.

Please realize that the concept of Advaita is a thing to be realized(attained) and isn't a philosophy to be proved true or false based on Logic and Arguments.
Before you term the Advaita philosophy as false, Have you atleast tried understanding the concepts of Advaita?
It is fruitless to point fingers at Advaitists saying their path is wrong, without even following the path of Advaitha and understanding the Advaithic concepts.
Try to understand the concepts of Advaita deeply, only then you realize the beauty of this sublime philosophy.

Why?!! I can even quote some of the statements made by Srila Prabhupada in his books, lectures and conversations which have a core Advaithic concepts. This is not the point.

When you have decided to follow a certain path, it is important to have faith in it. If you are thinking I am the only one who knows the truth, the others are going on the wrong path, this kind of spiritual journey leads to Nowhere and you may think you are progressing, but in actuality
YOU ARE NOT!.

Live and let live: Follow the Spiritual journey which your Guru has guided you to. Let others also follow their own spiritual journey. Each individual is different and he has the right to follow his own spiritual methods. Personal attacks on other philosophers and their philosophies has to be stopped.
Attacks on other philosophers and philosophies not only weakens our Sanathan Dharma, it is also a disgrace to our great vedic religion and customs. Our communal Indian Government also have the intention
to deride Hindu religion.


So all I can request you(ISKCONites) is to concentrate on the path that you have decided to thread. Be more dedicated towards Krishna and the Bhakti marg. Stick to the four regulative principles and chant the Hare Krishna Mahamantra 16 rounds everyday.
When you give out lectures on philosophy, concentrate more on the beauty of Bhakti-marg, and other brilliant scientifically explained Vedic values and thought given out by Srila Prabhupada(MINUS the attack on Shankara's philosophy and his true followers.)

In this way, everything will be in peace.

Thank You.

PS: I know ISKCON's explanation of why Shankaracharya established the Monist Philosophy.
Please go through any of the available authorized Buddhist websites, there is no case that Buddha rejected the Vedas. Most of the terms used by Buddha have their source from Vedas.
(I can delve deeper about this, but I think the message has been put across)

None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Guru of all Adi Shankaracharya.

OM TAT SAT

Yogkriya
09 January 2011, 02:56 AM
Priya atmiya Anatman,

Namaskar!

Thank you for the excellent post!
Hope the spirit within this post rings the right notes across the HK camp and peace and mutual love prevails in the true Vedic Sanatana spirit.
Best wishes.

Jai Gurudev!

Yogkriya

Adhvagat
09 January 2011, 03:22 AM
I see no problem with confrontation of ideas. I only see a problem with the lack of fruitful outcome in most of them.

I think that what was said was said and Prabhupada had a reason to do it. That's part of his strong impetus and I'm not sure he would have accomplished what he did without it.

I was at new year's eve at an ISKCON temple... I discussed all these topics with several old devotees, had really sensitive, clarifying conversations with them. I was happy when at a class my siksha guru said that the realization of Brahman path is also valid, not just ISKCON's focus.

Sometimes I see an ISKCON devotee (mostly on internet) speaking aggressively about these subjects, but all I can see when I look at this is rajas and I'm sure it won't be long until it falls into tamas and tamas and Krishna consciousness are not very fond of each other.

None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Gurus who guided each one of us exactly the way we needed into the Truth.

Om Tat Sat

Yogkriya
09 January 2011, 04:50 AM
I

I think that what was said was said and Prabhupada had a reason to do it. That's part of his strong impetus and I'm not sure he would have accomplished what he did without it.



Sure he had a reason to do and say what he did and said.
His reason was to launch and promote his brand - Iskcon.
Its a marketing strategy. I would look at it like that.
Its a different thing that in its base can be
a) fulfilling his Guru's desire,
b) love for Krsna and promoting the ideal of Sri Chaitanya to spread Hari naam all over the world.
But criticizing other schools of Vedic thought to promote own lineage? - I consider this a below belt hit and unacceptable.
And that's where the whole problem lies.

A realized being will never demote another Vedic school of thought to promote his. In fact he has a all round knowledge. When Lord Shri Krishn talks about self realization, relation with God / Himself, he does not put down one or the other ways. He brings out the all round knowledge and gives it to Arjuna. This is Vedic culture. He talks on all branches of knowledge that people really practiced together. Otherwise, it would've been apt for Shri Krishn to tell Arjuna to bring his harmonium and khartals instead. Krishn made Arjun REALIZE the knowledge opening up his Agya chakra.

Coming back to what Srila Prabhupad ji did, when a leader does or says something, he establishes an example for his followers to follow. Unfortunately, this particular trait was not a good one for sure.
In India we say two lovers understand each other. When there are two lovers of God, they understand each other and appreciate.

Again, I'll bring in this simple example: you love your father and I love mine.
We both are filled with love for our parents and do things for them. So you should not put me down because I'm loving my father but not yours in the same way?!

Shri RamaKrishna Paramhans was also a great lover of God, totally intoxicated with God's love. But Prabhupad called him a "fool and rascal" simply because he is not worshipping God in form of Krishna but Kali? Though he also worshipped Krishn).
To promote Iskcon Prabhupad started attacking Hindus and spreading that there is no such religion as Hinduism and its a name given by invading persians (false info.), and its all hodge podge dried up branches of knowledge etc. All this was very unfortunate indeed and I will never stand by it or justify it for anything, no matter how many times he globe trotted. Of course I very much appreciate his work of spreading Krsna bhakti. This is definitely very commendable. Spreading of Krishna consciousness books and knowledge was done by Srila Prabhupad.
But then, this was his focus - spreading awareness about it and bringing people to accept it. There are Vedic disciplines that focus on realization more. Advaita is based more on realization than spreading/marketing etc..
Most Vedic Shaiva and yoga groups are not based on spreading more but realizing more. But if one school spreads more, it should not go about attacking others because it could spread more name.
There are sages who's name is not known to anyone, but they are self realized, have overcome maya, have been living in physical body in God communion for hundreds of years and yet they haven't marketed and advertised their name anywhere. So we see, in today's world of marketing, PR and advertisement that even Gurus make good use of, spiritual advancement does not depend on its advertising success.

Shri Shankaracharya was an outstanding stalwart connected to the divine land of Siddhasram who came to re-establish Vedic Sanatan dharma. Siddhashram has been sending in yogis of highest calibre to society from ages. His sidhis, realized knowledge and works were for the benefit of mankind. Nothing justifies an attack on him or his philosophy.
When a devotee/sadhak understands the Vedic knowledge on the whole, can he develop true humility, respect for all and a wholesome understanding of Vedic Sanatan Dharma. Otherwise, he gets influenced by ego and gets into the competitive mode: my God over your God, my lineage over your lineage etc.

Namaskar.
Om tat sat.

Yogkriya

Believer
09 January 2011, 04:15 PM
Another rambling on a lazy cold Sunday .....
---------------------------------------------------------------
-
Anatman, you have touched upon some very interesting topics that bring out passionate responses from both sides.

Whereas it is true that many unkind words were said about various acharyas/gurus/philosophers, and some of the younger over-indoctrinated ISKCONites still repeat those words like parrots on steroids, we must move beyond that. The reason is that we cannot afford to self-destruct by fighting each other. If there is a fight within a family, the differences must be patched up before outsiders start taking advantage of the family split. With all the conversions going on, we have no option but to be inclusive of all Hindus, even the ones who proclaim that they are not Hindus, but derive all their knowledge from the Bhagwad Gita. If some sampradayas are acting like rebellious, dim-witted teenagers, we cannot disown them. Their words might cause us immense pain, both at the personal level and through insults of our revered acharyas/gurus, but we still have to think of them as our own. That is the nature of human relationships, we are different bodies with the same set of indriyas.

We love their kirtans, their devotion and visit their temples, both in India and in other countires. We support them financially and feel a sense of pride when we see them dancing on street corners of the downtown areas of different cities, with their saffron robes flowing in the wind. Why not just confront any devotees talking non-sense, but not holding a grudge against the whole organization?

Yogkriyaji, I understand that for you and for many others, Prabhupad's utterances, when his brand was flying high are painful and have caused deep wounds. I am by no means trying to protect/sell ISKCON, or diminish the impact of damage they did to a whole lot of other sampradayas/gurus. There is no reason for any self realized soul to indulge in that kind of trash talk. But the reality is that it happened, and it happened in the past, and the guilty party has since left this world. All we can do is to very humbly remind their devotees about their folly, should any one of them repeat the same mistake and mouth bad words against other acharyas. We should remind them that they are hurting themselves, they are hurting us Hindus and they are hurting the cause of Vaishvanism. We need to put some sense into the thick heads, whenever we encounter them, but not disown ISKCON. It is a Hindu organization, and it is part of us. We the Hindus, own it. It is not a foreign philosophy/entity being forced on us. It is Hinduism under a different garb and its scriptures/philosophy is our property lock, stock and barrel. Why try to disassociate from our own?
-
Jai ShivaKrishna-Vishnu-Brahma
-

anatman
09 January 2011, 11:17 PM
My post had the clear intention of not hurting ISKCON.

It was only to stop them attacking our Jagatguru Shankaracharya, his philosophy, and his true followers.

The Rig-Veda declares: "Truth is one; sages call it various names- Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti." The Upanishads declare that all the paths lead to the same goal, just as cows of variegated colours yield the same white milk.:)

Believer
10 January 2011, 10:40 AM
My post had the clear intention of not hurting ISKCON.
Understood, and it was taken as such.


It was only to stop them (from) attacking our Jagatguru Shankaracharya, his philosophy, and his true followers.

There are two things to consider. Firstly, when somebody heaps curses/abuses at you and you don't accept them, they belong to him. So, I would not be overly sensitive to people who clearly have some malice in them and are under the influence of tamas/rajas-gunas. Secondly, If it does disturb me enough to lose my balance, I would confront the devotee(s) repeating the unflattering/unpleasant accusations and tell them how they are hurting Vaishanavism, Hinduism and are also hurting me personally. A saffron robe doesn't give anyone a license to be mean to other Acharyas.


The Rig-Veda declares: "Truth is one; sages call it various names- Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti." The Upanishads declare that all the paths lead to the same goal, just as cows of variegated colours yield the same white milk.:)
That is news to me. I thought the chocolate milk sold in the stores came from brown cows. Just kidding! :)

Yogkriya
10 January 2011, 03:01 PM
Dear ones,

Namaskar!

Just returned from an old American friend's house who is an old Srila Prabhupad disciple.
He wanted to discuss philosophy. I usually avoid this, since I know who I'm talking with. But it heated up and he ended up abusing "hindus", and generalizing India has these Gurus who are frauds and all... and then he called Shri RamaKrishna Paramhansa as a demon and demoniac.
I asked "why do you say so?" He said cuz Prabhupad said and he must repeat his words like a parrot, repeating his master's words and preaching them to all is Prabhupad's instructions and that includes the abuses too.

So we are happy to not go into that argument alley. The Prabhupad personality is gone. BUT his disciples have a task to preach and tell others as aggressively as Prabhupad abusing them. And to avoid confrontation, one must listen and accept otherwise it is a "vaishnava aparadha".
Calling Shri RamaKrishna Paramhansa is not an aparadha, preaching that Shri Adi Shankaracharya was a false Guru and came to spread false kowledge and cheat the people is not an offense, but contradicting Prabhupad on one point is great Vaishnava Aparadha.

So what's the options?? Stay away from Hare Krsnas? I like Bhakti Yoga. Devotion is great. But why this arrogance? If it was just Prabhupad who offended people and left, it would be one thing. But he left back generation after generations to repeat his offenses back to the generations of followers of other lineages. This is unfortunate.

Nobody wants to hurt Iskcon or HKs as Anatman said. Agree with Believer too. Hinduism is not name given by muslims. Plenty of evidence of its being known before muslims ever came. Its Sanatana Dharma and we respect everyone, since GOD (Governing Order of Divinity) gives through various channels in various ways. No wonder Lord Krishna didn't remain limited to talking on bhakti yoga alone in B.G. So the respect.
Its not that Iskcon and gaudiyas have a monopoly on God/Krsna.

Here's an interesting post from another member :

"Actually, The roots of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are from advaita philosophy. But suddenly they changed their track and took an exact opposite stance. When Caitanya said he was krsna he meant 'Aham Brahmasmi'., Almost all his associates like 'Nityananda, advaitaacharya..etc claimed the same. The other Vaishnava sects rejected them for they don't have authentic lineage and established Sastra. In those days, a philosophical school would be recognized only when it had its own Commentary on Brahma sutras and B-Gita. Their dualistic stupidity started in 17 th century when Baladeva Vidyabhushana joined Madhva-Dualists who helped him in writing Govinda-Bhashya for Brahma-Sutras and gave permission to use Madhva-lineage.

Even their so called Brahma samhita was written by an Advaitin. It was a portion of agama which describes the construction of 'Chakra or Yantra' that is to be placed in temple. It describes the Hexagonal star like diagram. It also describes the positions of various deities in that Yantra but it is no way concerned with inferior or superior status of deities somewhere in the cosmos. But HKs are ignorant of this fact and foolishly speak ill of Great Sri-Chakra yantra as 'Tamasic'. "

The over glorification of personalities stops one from questioning certain things in the later year writings. This glorification turns people into living Gods and you can't question them then.

The opinion of Lord Krishna about Lord Shiva and that of Prabhupad are clearly different. My question to my American Prabhupad disciple was I accept Krishna on Shiva, but you accept Prabhupad on Shiva. I accept the authority of Krishna over Prabhupad. So I'm into Krishna consciousness and you are into Prabhupada consciousness. And there clearly is a difference.

'Believer' has before also tried to bridge in the gaps. I'm happy about that.
Let's see the positive. There is some negative but let's not dwell on the negative and past. And we can keep shut while the HK can spread false offensive information about Shri Shankaracharya, Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa, all Hindus, Lord Shiva, all other "demi"-Gods and so on in the present and the future.
Remember, if you contradict anything, you may commit the most horrible sin of "Vaishnava aparadha". So please be very careful. We just need peace.
If your lineage, faith, Gurus, scriptures anything gets abused by the HKs, do not answer back, do not contradict, otherwise its "offensive". Just accept and be positive. ;)

|| Om Tat Sat ||

Yogkriya

anatman
10 January 2011, 09:35 PM
Hello YogKriya and Believer!!

I have a way to deal with them(Hare Krishnas).

I have some very good points which can easily disprove their origin from the Madvacharya sampradaya.

And also there are some Prabhupad-student conversations which are not on par with ISKCON's philosophy.

Since, they attack other philosophers without any knowledge.

We show to them the statements made by Prabhupada which are a contradiction to their own philosophy(so-called philosophy).

This is just to make them realize the folly of their own sect :)

Here is one example:

ISKCON's philosophy of this world(Jagat): Prabhupada says that this world is Real, but impermanent( ?? ). The world is True. The Material world is not false—but temporary. ( Source from Srimad Bhagvatam, BhagvadGita- As it is, etc)

But, NO!!, this statement is contradicted by Prabhupada himself..
Here's the link to Prabhupad's conversation with a university student.

http://www.vedaveda.com/speak_out/006.html

Prabhupad clearly mentions this world( Jagat) isn't true.
His statement is in line with Shankara's "Brahma satya, Jagat Mithya"

So which Prabhupad should I listen to? :confused:

devotee
10 January 2011, 10:02 PM
Namaste Anatman, Yogakriya and all,

We can feel happy that at least this forum has been able to accomodate both types of devotees without too much problem, thanks to Satay ! :)

We had heated but fruitful discussions with them (the ISKCONites) in the past and you can see them ( like http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5123 ) in the Advaita sub-forum here.

OM

Yogkriya
11 January 2011, 09:28 AM
Namaste Anatman, Yogakriya and all,

We can feel happy that at least this forum has been able to accomodate both types of devotees without too much problem, thanks to Satay ! :)

We had heated but fruitful discussions with them (the ISKCONites) in the past and you can see them ( like http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5123 ) in the Advaita sub-forum here.

OM

Namaste Devotee!

Yes there has been some discussions. Thanks to Satay and everyone.
The aggression is kept at a certain limit. Also the thing is that this is Hindu Dharma forums so other people also get to have a say here, not just the HKs.
Would it have been India Divine Audarya forum, comments contradicting HK philosophy would be removed and then consequently member blocked as there is no room for contradiction in HK philosophy. They make statement. If you don't accept, you are making Vaishnava Apradha. Simple.
Namaskar!

Yogkriya

anatman
12 January 2011, 12:19 AM
I'm happy about that.
Let's see the positive. There is some negative but let's not dwell on the negative and past. And we can keep shut while the HK can spread false offensive information about Shri Shankaracharya, Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa, all Hindus, Lord Shiva, all other "demi"-Gods and so on in the present and the future.
Remember, if you contradict anything, you may commit the most horrible sin of "Vaishnava aparadha". So please be very careful. We just need peace.
If your lineage, faith, Gurus, scriptures anything gets abused by the HKs, do not answer back, do not contradict, otherwise its "offensive". Just accept and be positive. ;)

|| Om Tat Sat ||

Yogkriya

I do not agree to just shut up and listen to ISKCON's false offensive information about Shri Shankaracharya, Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Hindus, Lord Shiva, "demi"-Gods etc.

What has to be done is to correct their ways.

The Great Philosophers like Shri Shankaracharya, Ramanuja etc corrected the misled public. Like-wise, we atleast try to make them understand that all spiritual methods are valid, not only the HK's method. In this way, the Guru bashing and Philosophy bashing will stop.

If they are not corrected, it is going to damage the reputation of Sanathan Dharma. (Think of it in the long term).

anatman
12 January 2011, 12:29 AM
Namaste Devotee!

Would it have been India Divine Audarya forum, comments contradicting HK philosophy would be removed and then consequently member blocked as there is no room for contradiction in HK philosophy. They make statement. If you don't accept, you are making Vaishnava Apradha. Simple.
Namaskar!

Yogkriya

Hahahhahaahahah, it is funny when you said "They make statement. If you don't accept, you are making Vaishnava Apradha. Simple" :laugh:

Yogkriya
12 January 2011, 01:25 PM
Hahahhahaahahah, it is funny when you said "They make statement. If you don't accept, you are making Vaishnava Apradha. Simple" :laugh:

Well yes. Its like an Islamic Fatwa.
Consider the following:
Islam: Allah is the only God. Islam is the only true religion.
Muhammad is the last messenger of God on earth. Rest is all false.
Christians: Jesus is the ONLY way. Nobody comes to God except through Jesus.
Hare Krsna: "harer näma harer näma harer näma eva kevalam" that was interpreted by the followers as "ONLY chanting name of Hari can give result in Kaliyuga. No other Vedic/any other mantra can give result. No other method of sadhna etc. This also was implied to mean that no other way of sadhna. Later it turned on that no other philosophy, saint, guru is bonafide except Hare Krishna one.

Now the Vedas don't claim such arrogance or restrictions. This is a trait of sub sects aggressively striving for independent personality recognition.
The Vedic culture is amazingly vast, deep and all engulfing. At no point Lord Rama says this particular practice is ONLY.. etc...

If Lord Rama and Krsna can worship Lord of the Lords - Shiva, how can it be an "offense" to Prabhupad disciples if Shiva is placed on the same altar as Krishna??? - See the contradiction between real Vedic and 'cult' mentality?

As 'BELIEVER' hinted, we are happy to see the dialogue. Bharat Vedic culture has been proud of the culmination of multi-faceted spiritual disciplines/philosophies existing within the same bouquet. Rightly so. With the same goal of Self realization and God realization.
The differences are external. Fools perceive the external vision limited to sensory organs alone. The wise dwell deeper within opening the divine vision perceiving the eternal within one and all.
As the Vedas claim - Truth is one. Wise call it by many names.
Jai Gurudev!
Namah Shivaya!

Yogkriya

Believer
12 January 2011, 05:00 PM
Consider the following:
Islam: Allah is the only God. Islam is the only true religion.
Muhammad is the last messenger of God on earth. Rest is all false.
Christians: Jesus is the ONLY way. Nobody comes to God except through Jesus.
Hare Krsna: "harer näma harer näma harer näma eva kevalam" that was interpreted by the followers as "ONLY chanting name of Hari can give result in Kaliyuga. No other Vedic/any other mantra can give result. No other method of sadhna etc. This also was implied to mean that no other way of sadhna. Later it turned on that no other philosophy, saint, guru is bonafide except Hare Krishna one. Very True!
Completely agree with all of that!!



What has to be done is to correct their ways.

The Great Philosophers like Shri Shankaracharya, Ramanuja etc corrected the misled public. Like-wise, we atleast try to make them understand that all spiritual methods are valid, not only the HK's method. In this way, the Guru bashing and Philosophy bashing will stop.

If they are not corrected, it is going to damage the reputation of Sanathan Dharma. (Think of it in the long term).Anatman, this is exactly what I try to emphasize - the long term effect of excluding/ignoring/attacking them, on the reputation of Sanatan Dharma. In fact when I bring out this point and try to bridge the gap, I am almost considered an 'agent' of the ISKCON and everyone gives me a piece of his/her mind under the guise of 'open discussion'. My point is that if someone wants to copyright a Bhagwad Gita/Bhagvatam based sampradaye as a brand new, non-Hindu organization which holds negative thoughts about other Hindu Acharyas/Gurus/Hindu Philosophers, then I have to confront him as he is stealing my Hindu religious/spiritual/cultural heritage and I must make him realize that. As you have so wisely stated, "What has to be done is to correct their ways."

Jai Shri ShivaKrishnaRama-Vishnu-Brahman
-

Eastern Mind
16 January 2011, 02:57 AM
Vannakkam: Recently when I was at Tiruchendur amongst the hordes of Murugan devotees, (about 100 000 on that day) it was interesting to watch the ISKCON people standing in the middle of the throngs trying to peddle the Tamil translation of 'BG as it is'. I really felt like inviting them inside but the queue was very long (4 hours or more) on that day. Undoubtedly they wouldn't have wanted to come with me. The stack of books certainly wasn't going down very fast and it was strangely reminiscient of the 70s days in airports. Most people just walked on by ignoring them ... too busy to get to the darshan line for Muruga's grace or to the nearby beach.

I see know reason why any Hindu of any sect would want to convert others to his way of thinking. Isn't it enough that we all have so much commonality already? But I see it here a lot in more subtle ways, and I'm as guilty as any I suppose. Perhaps that's just the nature of any dialogue.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
16 January 2011, 03:34 AM
Welcome back, EM ! How was your trip ?

OM

Eastern Mind
16 January 2011, 09:45 AM
Vannakkam Devotee: Trip was fine. Thanks.

Aum Namasivaya

giridhar
16 January 2011, 10:17 PM
Oh, for long i had wanted to write something like this !!! great Anatman !! Great !! great work !!

I can REALLY appreciate these words of yours, as personally, i had gone deep inside HK philosophy & then came out,having gotten the truth of the things.. By truth, i mean who IS the Lord of Lords ??

In the Maha Bharata, after Ashwathhaama's AAGNEYA Astra faisl to kill Krsna & Arjuna but annihilates a large pandava army, he asks VYASA , the reason for it.

VYAASA says: "Sa Esha Rudra Bhaktash cha Keshavo Rudra SAMBHAVA ha"..

Translated - This Keshava whom u r seeing here, is a great devotee of Shri Rudra & is an expansion of Shri Rudra.

Also, in the chapter dealing with SAHASRANAAMA stotras in Mahabharata:

BHeeshma readily gives out the VISHNU stotra but accepts his INABILITY to give SHIVA stotra & says that this Krsna, the greatest devotee of Shri Rudra, is ALONE capable of giving THAT stotra. NO mortal afflicted with old age, death,birth can give that secret stotra !! Then Krsna says that he Himself chants Shri Rudram everyday morning, as His first job...

There are numerous instances in the Mahabharata itself to understand the Lord of Lords.....

My humble point is that let each one follow his path SINCERELY. He cannot but come to the truth. Truth can not be hidden...

I was a Shri Raam Bhakta who was led to Parama Shiva. Even now the very word "Raam" brings copious tears from my eyes, for it is Hanuman who is my Guru.

Let each follow the path SINCERELY. I dont like the hindus to become like Islamists & Christians,parading their path to be the ONLY ONE..

Om Shakti
Giridhar









This message, because of the personal attacks given in ISKCON books,lectures and also by some of the temple devotees on JagatGuru Shankara Bhagvadpada, his philosophy and his true followers.

Firstly, I in no way am forcing the philosophy of Advaita on ISKCONites in the below views.

Let's start, here you need to understand the history of these philosophers(in brief).

Shankaracharya- Reinstalled Vedic sanathan dharma, as there was a decline in vedic principles and more importance was given to the rituals,
the knowledge part of the vedas was obscured and considered immaterial.

Ramanujacharya- He reintroduced Bhakthi, as the Bhakthi yoga marg started declining and the people were more into the Jnana marg.
This gave rise to mere intellectual discussions with dry heart. Bhakti Yoga is one of the main paths which leads to the purification of the heart and checks the Individual's Ego.

Madhvacharya- Introduced complete duality(Dwaitha), because there were these so-called Advaithic philosophers who were puffed up, egoistic and
took the terms "Aham Brahmasmi" and "Tat tvam asi" literally and were posing as Gods superfically [Just like the self-styled gurus who took over ISKCON(not all the branches, only some)after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, they misled and took advantage of the real sincere seekers for their own personal gain.]

When I read the personal attacks on Shankara and his followers by ISKCONites, I feel dissapointed.

These are serious accusations, terming them as Mayavadis/Impersonalists and Rascal Philosophers etc.

When you point a finger towards others, three fingers point back at you. So check on whether you(ISKCONites) are dedicated on the path that you follow, before terming others as false.

Please realize that the concept of Advaita is a thing to be realized(attained) and isn't a philosophy to be proved true or false based on Logic and Arguments.
Before you term the Advaita philosophy as false, Have you atleast tried understanding the concepts of Advaita?
It is fruitless to point fingers at Advaitists saying their path is wrong, without even following the path of Advaitha and understanding the Advaithic concepts.
Try to understand the concepts of Advaita deeply, only then you realize the beauty of this sublime philosophy.

Why?!! I can even quote some of the statements made by Srila Prabhupada in his books, lectures and conversations which have a core Advaithic concepts. This is not the point.

When you have decided to follow a certain path, it is important to have faith in it. If you are thinking I am the only one who knows the truth, the others are going on the wrong path, this kind of spiritual journey leads to Nowhere and you may think you are progressing, but in actuality
YOU ARE NOT!.

Live and let live: Follow the Spiritual journey which your Guru has guided you to. Let others also follow their own spiritual journey. Each individual is different and he has the right to follow his own spiritual methods. Personal attacks on other philosophers and their philosophies has to be stopped.
Attacks on other philosophers and philosophies not only weakens our Sanathan Dharma, it is also a disgrace to our great vedic religion and customs. Our communal Indian Government also have the intention
to deride Hindu religion.


So all I can request you(ISKCONites) is to concentrate on the path that you have decided to thread. Be more dedicated towards Krishna and the Bhakti marg. Stick to the four regulative principles and chant the Hare Krishna Mahamantra 16 rounds everyday.
When you give out lectures on philosophy, concentrate more on the beauty of Bhakti-marg, and other brilliant scientifically explained Vedic values and thought given out by Srila Prabhupada(MINUS the attack on Shankara's philosophy and his true followers.)

In this way, everything will be in peace.

Thank You.

PS: I know ISKCON's explanation of why Shankaracharya established the Monist Philosophy.
Please go through any of the available authorized Buddhist websites, there is no case that Buddha rejected the Vedas. Most of the terms used by Buddha have their source from Vedas.
(I can delve deeper about this, but I think the message has been put across)

None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Guru of all Adi Shankaracharya.

OM TAT SAT

anatman
17 January 2011, 11:20 AM
Oh, for long i had wanted to write something like this !!! great Anatman !! Great !! great work !!

I can REALLY appreciate these words of yours, as personally, i had gone deep inside HK philosophy & then came out,having gotten the truth of the things.. By truth, i mean who IS the Lord of Lords ??


Thanks!!

The intention of the post is to make the Harekrishnas to come out of their false theory that their path is the only truth and rest of the spiritual seekers like the Advaitins etc are deluded, fools and rascals.

The Harekrishnas have to come out of their narrow, bigoted mind and try to realize the fact that all the spiritual methods are valid.

The Vedas themselves declare that the "Truth is one; sages call it various names- Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti."

You can make progress spiritually by having a open, un-bigoted mind. Only then can you realize the truth!

Accusing others of their spiritual practices and philosophies will only hinder the Harekrishnas spiritual progress.

The followers of the Buddha were advised not to believe anything without considering it properly.
In the Kalama Sutta,the Buddha gave the following guidelines to a group of young people:
'Do not accept anything based upon mere reports,
traditions or hearsay,
Nor upon the authority of religious texts,
Nor upon mere reasons and arguments,
Nor upon one's own inference,
Nor upon anything which appears to be true,
Nor upon one's own speculative opinion,
Nor upon another's seeming ability,
Nor upon the consideration: 'This is our Teacher.'
'But, when you know for yourselves the certain things are unwholesome and bad: tending to harm yourself of others, reject them.
'And when you know for yourselves that certain things are wholesome and good: conducive to the spiritual welfare of yourself as well as others, accept and follow them.'


Great words from the Buddha, the Ninth Avatar of

Maha-Vishnu.

Eastern Mind
17 January 2011, 12:42 PM
Vannakkam all: Although the task of changing someone else's behaviour may be admirable, I feel it is nigh impossible. Try altering the behaviour of any fundamentalist sect within any religion. I know such narrow bigoted ways don't reflect very well on any religion, but I don't see any obvious solution. Souls are in a certain position of awareness because of the collective mind's level of consciousness. Can we teach a kindergarten child linear algebra? It is a waste of time. Time would be better spent raising our own levels of consciousness rather than trying to think of changing others. They have to see that themselves.

In my latest experience at Tiruchendur, who do you think looked happy and having fun? All the Murugan bhaktars following the golden chariot, the small children in tow, the people frolicking in the waves, the Ayyapan guys on a pit stop to Kerala, the vendors and hawkers. Many smiles were had by all. People just sitting watching the waves. Then, in dire contrast, looking unhappy about the lack of 'success' were the ISKCONites in the middle of the crowd. To almost everyone else, it was a happy joyous celebration of the New Year. So if someone can't see that picture while standing right in the middle of it, then how can we expect they might change from us saying something.

it reminded me of the one Australian guy on our passage via Beijing who decided he was going to singlehandedly alter the way the Chinese handled security at the airport. "Good luck with that" I thought. :)

Aum Namasivaya

Yogkriya
17 January 2011, 02:34 PM
Om Nama Shivaya!!! :)
Jai Shri Krsna!!

Sahasranama
17 January 2011, 08:51 PM
दुर्गति नाशिनि दुर्गा जय जय, काल विनाशिनि काली जय जय
durgati nāśini durgā jaya jaya, kāla vināśini kālī jaya jaya

उमा रमा ब्रह्माणि जय जय, राधा सीता रुक्मिणि जय जय
umā ramā brahmāṇi jaya jaya, rādhā sītā rukmiṇi jaya jaya

साम्ब सदाशिव साम्ब सदाशिव, साम्ब सदाशिव जय शङ्कर
sāmba sadāśiva sāmba sadāśiva, sāmba sadāśiva jaya śaṅkara

हर हर शङ्कर दुखहर सुखकर, अघ तम हर हर हर शङ्कर
hara hara śaṅkara dukhahara sukhakara, agha tama hara hara hara śaṅkara

हरे राम हरे राम राम राम हरे हरे, हरे कृष्ण हरे कृष्ण कृष्ण कृष्ण हरे हरे
hare rāma hare rāma rāma rāma hare hare, hare kṛṣṇa hare kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare

जय जय दुर्गा जय मा तारा, जय गणेश जय शुभ आगारा
jaya jaya durgā jaya mā tārā, jaya gaṇeśa jaya śubha āgārā

जयति शिवाशिव जानकिराम, गौरिशङ्कर सीताराम
jayati śivāśiva jānakirāma, gauriśaṅkara sītārāma

जय रघुनन्दन जय सीताराम, व्रज गोपी प्रिय राधेश्याम
jaya raghunandana jaya sītārāma, vraja gopī priya rādheśyāma

रघुपति राघव राजाराम, पतितपावन सीताराम
raghupati rāghava rājārāma, patitapāvana sītārāma

giridhar
17 January 2011, 10:52 PM
**************************************************************************************************** *******************
[QUOTE=anatman;56782]Thanks!!

The intention of the post is to make the Harekrishnas to come out of their false theory that their path is the only truth and rest of the spiritual seekers like the Advaitins etc are deluded, fools and rascals.

The Harekrishnas have to come out of their narrow, bigoted mind and try to realize the fact that all the spiritual methods are valid.

The Vedas themselves declare that the "Truth is one; sages call it various names- Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti."

You can make progress spiritually by having a open, un-bigoted mind. Only then can you realize the truth!

**************************************************************************************************** *******************


V true !! I had a tough time coming out of their teachings. HK teachers always reminded me more of Christian orientation towards Hells & Heavens, sufferings in hells, trying to intimidate people to do good actions by reminding them of sins...

Vedas never give the connotation of sin , but only karmic reactions & exhort men to move beyond them. I have attended lectures of Krsna devotees in HK centers in mumbai, Tamilnadu etc etc... Everywhere, i found the same theme - leaving this world for Krsna, Everything is false etc etc. I found no strength in their messages. But i was amazed at their will power to convert other hindus to their path - reminding me of christians who do the same. I was even afraid whether my sadhana was wrong. They would make you feel that unless u chant Hare Krsna Maha Mantra, you would go to hell. Where is then difference between christians & these hindus ? Oh my God !! Wot a terrible time i had !!

Stil, i respect Swami Prabhupada A LOT, for He was the only one who boldly taught the importance of Japa Yoga. Then, fortunately i read Shri Tulsidas, who has stressed only Japa, of all sadhanas ...

Anyways, Anatman Bhai !! HK ppl & many others like them (christians & muslims) can never be convinced to harbor a 'broad mindedness'.. Because we feel they are wrong by being bigoted in their minds.But they are true to themselves & their teachings !!! & here in , lies the whole danger. They are true according to what they are taught !!!

giridhar
17 January 2011, 11:01 PM
Vannakkam all: Although the task of changing someone else's behaviour may be admirable, I feel it is nigh impossible. Try altering the behaviour of any fundamentalist sect within any religion. I know such narrow bigoted ways don't reflect very well on any religion, but I don't see any obvious solution. Souls are in a certain position of awareness because of the collective mind's level of consciousness. Can we teach a kindergarten child linear algebra? It is a waste of time. Time would be better spent raising our own levels of consciousness rather than trying to think of changing others. They have to see that themselves.

In my latest experience at Tiruchendur, who do you think looked happy and having fun? All the Murugan bhaktars following the golden chariot, the small children in tow, the people frolicking in the waves, the Ayyapan guys on a pit stop to Kerala, the vendors and hawkers. Many smiles were had by all. People just sitting watching the waves. Then, in dire contrast, looking unhappy about the lack of 'success' were the ISKCONites in the middle of the crowd. To almost everyone else, it was a happy joyous celebration of the New Year. So if someone can't see that picture while standing right in the middle of it, then how can we expect they might change from us saying something.

it reminded me of the one Australian guy on our passage via Beijing who decided he was going to singlehandedly alter the way the Chinese handled security at the airport. "Good luck with that" I thought. :)

Aum Namasivaya


v well said !!! v correct !! its not necessary to change them also !! for they would never change !!! cos as i said above, they are TRUE to their teachings !!

& NOONE can change the TAMIL people.. Forget NOT HK ppl !!! This tamil land iS THE ANCIENT SHIVA BHOOMI ..In the tamil ppl's blood, runs the Shiva Naama .. The ancient dharma, the undated, the primordial path to the One without a second.. The very Word PAANDYA means = ANCIENT .. So ancient are the tamil ppl that no historian can put a date on them !!!

The immovable Annaa Malai Hill is witness to the ANCIENT dispute between the two powerful gods. & then the One without a second , the one with five faces & faces six, came to show to the 3 worlds who the ONE IS ..

He is the one with 5 & 6. He is the one with powers 5 & 6 ... No NEW philosophy , can be thrust on them ...

It is not surprising that HK faced defeat in Tamil Nadu !!

Hara Hara Mahaadev !!!

Adhvagat
18 January 2011, 01:21 AM
Giridhar, your words don't sound all that inclusive either. How what you are saying is any different from the exclusion you blame ISKCON for? Please clarify.

Regarding the concept of hell, I guess I have a better understanding now with views from multiple schools. I think they are real and are not at the same time. Just like any suffering in this world can be real... As long we are attached to the object that causes the suffering.

Here in Brazil, a very catholic nation, I can clearly see the natural progression society is making. In the 70s came Chico Xavier who spread to Christians and Catholics the concept of Karma and Reincarnation through the teachings of his non-incarnated spiritual master. So it was an elevation from the gross aspects of spirituality to something closer to the Truth. Now ISKCON has a basis for spreading the nature of the soul and a more advanced philosophy as show in the Bhagavad-gita. I know the figures are quite different on an already Hindu society, but here it's quite an observable progression.

And don't misunderstand me, ISKCON flaws are quite visible from around here, however I'm not really sure about the proper course of action needed to change this. I'll start with myself.

Om Tat Sat

giridhar
18 January 2011, 03:07 AM
Giridhar, your words don't sound all that inclusive either. How what you are saying is any different from the exclusion you blame ISKCON for? Please clarify.

Regarding the concept of hell, I guess I have a better understanding now with views from multiple schools. I think they are real and are not at the same time. Just like any suffering in this world can be real... As long we are attached to the object that causes the suffering.


Here in Brazil, a very catholic nation, I can clearly see the natural progression society is making. In the 70s came Chico Xavier who spread to Christians and Catholics the concept of Karma and Reincarnation through the teachings of his non-incarnated spiritual master. So it was an elevation from the gross aspects of spirituality to something closer to the Truth. Now ISKCON has a basis for spreading the nature of the soul and a more advanced philosophy as show in the Bhagavad-gita. I know the figures are quite different on an already Hindu society, but here it's quite an observable progression.

And don't misunderstand me, ISKCON flaws are quite visible from around here, however I'm not really sure about the proper course of action needed to change this. I'll start with myself.

Om Tat Sat


u r right in that hells have a relative existence. In fact, we can create new heavens & hells as millions of islamists have done already by their concept of JANNAT where the holy Ghaazi (islamic warrior) enjoys with virgins , after having slain infidels (hindus & all non-islamic people) on earth ... Creation of such hells is a matter of OCCULTISM which i shall not go in detail , here...

My point was not about that. But about how i would discuss, introduce or whatever, spiritual science to people (whether they may be novice or advanced sadhaks). The same fear psychosis is created by christianity. The Mother of Sri Aurobindo Ashram says how people are driven by fear. Fear is the cause of death. When fear is removed from the cells of body, then even physical death no longer exists. When this removal of fear is so difficult, why the teaching of spiritual science by laying more emphasis on hells, bad karmas... ? I never said they are untrue. Let me say: "We are not moving from error to truth, but from lower truth to higher truth". This makes such a difference !!

Take another eg: Swami Prabhupada calls "Kaali" & "Durga" as - "dangerous energies that are employed by Shri Krsna in killing demons". What non sense ? Shri Aurobindo prayed to Durga (Just Google "A hymn to Durga" ). Reading it, one understands who Shri Durga is ? She is not some dangerous energy who cannot touch "Baanke Bihari Lord Krsna".. She is not someone who does not have access to Krsna loka but always stays "just outside" Krsna Loka planets..

Come on, The Srimad Bhagavatam praises Maarkandeya rishi. He composed Devi Maahatmyam or Durga Sapta Shati (700 shlokas just like Bhagavad Gita)..

Why did Shri Krsna ask Arjuna to PRAY TO SHRI DURGA on the eve of Mahabharata war - a war MOST CRUCIAL TO THE WORLD. (This war paved the way for overmental consciousness to become firmly established on earth.)

Ved Vyaasa says: "Shri Krsna is the greatest devotee of Shri Rudra and is an expansion of the latter. "

HK HIDES ALL THESE FACTS. They do selective quoting !! ALL TANTRIKS know that all avataars of Shri Vishnu are empowered by some form of Shakti..

Here it goes :

1. matsyam (fish) - Kamala devi
2. Koorma (tortoise) - Bagalaa Mukhi devi
3. Varaaham (boar) - Vaaraahi devi
4. Nara simha (man-lion) - Bhairavi devi
5. Vaamana (dwarf man) - Dhoomaavati devi
6. Parashuraama (angry passionate man) - Chhinna masta devi
7. Shri Raam (Saatvic calm man) - Taara Devi
8. Bala Raama ( Asuric power of Lord - the second power according to Sri Aurobindo) - Maatangi Devi
9. Shri Krsna (Overmental Man) - Kaali devi (Tantriks know that both Krsna & Kaali have the same beeja mantra KLEEM).

10. KALKI - TRIPURA SUNDARI (O Enemy of Tripuras , Mahaadev !!)

Such glorious truths - HK hides.. I can give endless list of selective quotnig from scriptures to suit what their teachers say. Nay, I can even start a thread on those topics - if the moderators allow.

The Koorma Puraana was first narrated by Koorma Avataara of SHRI VISHNU HIMSELF. He says clearly that the traditional Vaishnava tilak of two white lines & a red line in between was first worn by SHRI VISHNU as it stands for the TRISHUL OR TRIDENT signifying the absolute power of Parama Shiva. He wears it being the most supreme devotee of Parama Shiva.

Aye, why this selective quoting ? If , when glorifying Shri Vishnu, by saying the truth that He is the greatest devotee of Shri SHiva, is His greatness reduced? Why hide the truth?

By text distortion, what have they achieved? I have posted elsewhere the contribution of Shaktas & Shaivas to Bhaarat Maata who IS Shri Durga. How have the Vaishnavas , with their world shunning philosophy , helped my Mother Bhaarat when she was plundered by Asuras in the last 1000 years. To quote Swami Vivekananda: "These Go-swamis have made weeping women, of men.." They tell you to cry & cry in separation from Krsna.

But Aye, my bretheren, my blood has always boiled in excitement at the Krsna who lifted Govardhana on a single finger, at that Krsna who repulsed JaraSandha 18 times in the battle field ( !!!), at that Krsna who did SEVERE tapasya in the mountains with raised arms standing on toes chanting the letters holy five to please the Great God,at that Krsna who abstained from the Bhaarata war due to His SUPREME POWER, at that Krsna who Himself said He would do ANYTHING to help fulfill Arjuna's vow to kill Jayadratha in the war...

MY mind seldom goes to that Krsna who dances with the gopis (even though i know love is the highest principle).. Parashuraam , when handing over the Sudarshan Chakra & the duties of that yuga , to Shri Krsna , told him: "Enough of dancing with gopis & playing on your flute. Now, take this chakra & do that for which thou hast embodied on earth...."

I Pray to that Shri Krsna, who is the Lion among men, who created Nara Rishi (arjuna) from His own body by Tapasya Shakti....

Do these Shri Krsnaas have adoration in HK ? Do their Krsna Murtis have one that lifts Govardhana mountain? Maybe one or two.. ( I have gone to many a HK temple, so i CAN SAY this).

Aye, my fellow sadhaks, how long can love alone do the divine work in the world ? Even the Mother of Sri Aurobindo Ashram had to abandon love & call my loving Mother Kaali . (She has already descended on the earth).

When preaching to the mass on spiritual science, never overly stress on love to the exclusion of EVERYTHING ELSE, never do selective quoting of texts, never read only portions of a text but read it completely, & NEVER, NEVER assume leadership role of all sadhaks & all paths to the One without a second.

This is my humble opinion & retort to HK people who do such things..

Kaali, Kaali, Mahaa Kaali, Bhadra Kaali Namostute !!

kd gupta
18 January 2011, 04:42 AM
Hahahhahaahahah, it is funny when you said "They make statement. If you don't accept, you are making Vaishnava Apradha. Simple" :laugh:
Contradiction ...it is everywhere . People believe on vyakti puja [ person worship ] but deny idol worship :cool1: . See
http://www.aryasamaj.org/newsite/node/1422#comment-1813

Eastern Mind
18 January 2011, 04:56 AM
Vannakkam: At the same time as we make observations about HK, I personally accept them as part of the Hindu fold. They are still my brothers and sisters, albeit in the same way I may not respect a blood brother who strays from dharma somewhat. (If my brother chooses or becomes an alcoholic, or is just a rude person, he is still my brother) We all have so much in common regarding the ultimate goals, vegetarianism, lifestyle etc.

I think we need to emotionally limit comments to observations rather than nasty criticism, as most of us know where that can lead us to. Other aspects such as feeding the poor at temples, daily rounds of personal sadhana, bhakti, almost single-handedly demonstrating our faith to the western world historically, etc. are admirable qualities and in summation outweigh the one characteristic of having this strong need to proseletyse.

Aum Namasivaya

devotee
18 January 2011, 05:19 AM
At the same time as we make observations about HK, I personally accept them as part of the Hindu fold. They are still my brothers and sisters

Yes, that is absolutely correct ! We must not forget that. :)


I think we need to emotionally limit comments to observations rather than nasty criticism, as most of us know where that can lead us to.

Yes, this is a valuable suggestion, EM ! This would improve the quality of posts and discussion on the forum. This would be more satisfying for all of us.

Truly speaking, I love going to ISKCON temples. They are so well kept & the environment is full of bhakti. I can just ignore what I don't like & if necessary can smile and walk away with, " Thank You very much" ... but I must learn to have more patience and inner peace.

OM

Eastern Mind
18 January 2011, 05:44 AM
Truly speaking, I love going to ISKCON temples. They are so well kept & the environment is full of bhakti. I can just ignore what I don't like & if necessary can smile and walk away with, " Thank You very much" ... but I must learn to have more patience and inner peace.

OM

Vannakkam Devotee: So true about the ignore bit. Its when we have this predetermined confrontational mood that determines an uncomfortable meeting.

I remember my own Guru's (He knew Prabhupada as a friend) comments on the matter when devotees were commenting back in the 60s 70s. He said, "Someone has to do what they're doing (being very visible out on the street etc.) If they weren't doing that, we would be." So I have tremendous admiration for that work. They brought Indian version of bhakti right to the streets of America without watering it down to include pews, suits and ties, or a mixed philosophy. It must have been very tough for someone to dedicate themselves to that version of being so different from the norm here. Constant criticism, scorn, being called a cult and much more. Refuge in Krishna allowed them to continue. I have nothing but admiration for that.

Aum Namasivaya

Yogkriya
18 January 2011, 09:04 AM
u r right in that hells have a relative existence. In fact, we can create new heavens & hells as millions of islamists have done already by their concept of JANNAT where the holy Ghaazi (islamic warrior) enjoys with virgins , after having slain infidels (hindus & all non-islamic people) on earth ... Creation of such hells is a matter of OCCULTISM which i shall not go in detail , here...

My point was not about that. But about how i would discuss, introduce or whatever, spiritual science to people (whether they may be novice or advanced sadhaks). The same fear psychosis is created by christianity. The Mother of Sri Aurobindo Ashram says how people are driven by fear. Fear is the cause of death. When fear is removed from the cells of body, then even physical death no longer exists. When this removal of fear is so difficult, why the teaching of spiritual science by laying more emphasis on hells, bad karmas... ? I never said they are untrue. Let me say: "We are not moving from error to truth, but from lower truth to higher truth". This makes such a difference !!

Take another eg: Swami Prabhupada calls "Kaali" & "Durga" as - "dangerous energies that are employed by Shri Krsna in killing demons". What non sense ? Shri Aurobindo prayed to Durga (Just Google "A hymn to Durga" ). Reading it, one understands who Shri Durga is ? She is not some dangerous energy who cannot touch "Baanke Bihari Lord Krsna".. She is not someone who does not have access to Krsna loka but always stays "just outside" Krsna Loka planets..

Come on, The Srimad Bhagavatam praises Maarkandeya rishi. He composed Devi Maahatmyam or Durga Sapta Shati (700 shlokas just like Bhagavad Gita)..

Why did Shri Krsna ask Arjuna to PRAY TO SHRI DURGA on the eve of Mahabharata war - a war MOST CRUCIAL TO THE WORLD. (This war paved the way for overmental consciousness to become firmly established on earth.)

Ved Vyaasa says: "Shri Krsna is the greatest devotee of Shri Rudra and is an expansion of the latter. "

HK HIDES ALL THESE FACTS. They do selective quoting !! ALL TANTRIKS know that all avataars of Shri Vishnu are empowered by some form of Shakti..

Here it goes :

1. matsyam (fish) - Kamala devi
2. Koorma (tortoise) - Bagalaa Mukhi devi
3. Varaaham (boar) - Vaaraahi devi
4. Nara simha (man-lion) - Bhairavi devi
5. Vaamana (dwarf man) - Dhoomaavati devi
6. Parashuraama (angry passionate man) - Chhinna masta devi
7. Shri Raam (Saatvic calm man) - Taara Devi
8. Bala Raama ( Asuric power of Lord - the second power according to Sri Aurobindo) - Maatangi Devi
9. Shri Krsna (Overmental Man) - Kaali devi (Tantriks know that both Krsna & Kaali have the same beeja mantra KLEEM).

10. KALKI - TRIPURA SUNDARI (O Enemy of Tripuras , Mahaadev !!)

Such glorious truths - HK hides.. I can give endless list of selective quotnig from scriptures to suit what their teachers say. Nay, I can even start a thread on those topics - if the moderators allow.

The Koorma Puraana was first narrated by Koorma Avataara of SHRI VISHNU HIMSELF. He says clearly that the traditional Vaishnava tilak of two white lines & a red line in between was first worn by SHRI VISHNU as it stands for the TRISHUL OR TRIDENT signifying the absolute power of Parama Shiva. He wears it being the most supreme devotee of Parama Shiva.

Aye, why this selective quoting ? If , when glorifying Shri Vishnu, by saying the truth that He is the greatest devotee of Shri SHiva, is His greatness reduced? Why hide the truth?

By text distortion, what have they achieved? I have posted elsewhere the contribution of Shaktas & Shaivas to Bhaarat Maata who IS Shri Durga. How have the Vaishnavas , with their world shunning philosophy , helped my Mother Bhaarat when she was plundered by Asuras in the last 1000 years. To quote Swami Vivekananda: "These Go-swamis have made weeping women, of men.." They tell you to cry & cry in separation from Krsna.

But Aye, my bretheren, my blood has always boiled in excitement at the Krsna who lifted Govardhana on a single finger, at that Krsna who repulsed JaraSandha 18 times in the battle field ( !!!), at that Krsna who did SEVERE tapasya in the mountains with raised arms standing on toes chanting the letters holy five to please the Great God,at that Krsna who abstained from the Bhaarata war due to His SUPREME POWER, at that Krsna who Himself said He would do ANYTHING to help fulfill Arjuna's vow to kill Jayadratha in the war...

MY mind seldom goes to that Krsna who dances with the gopis (even though i know love is the highest principle).. Parashuraam , when handing over the Sudarshan Chakra & the duties of that yuga , to Shri Krsna , told him: "Enough of dancing with gopis & playing on your flute. Now, take this chakra & do that for which thou hast embodied on earth...."

I Pray to that Shri Krsna, who is the Lion among men, who created Nara Rishi (arjuna) from His own body by Tapasya Shakti....

Do these Shri Krsnaas have adoration in HK ? Do their Krsna Murtis have one that lifts Govardhana mountain? Maybe one or two.. ( I have gone to many a HK temple, so i CAN SAY this).

Aye, my fellow sadhaks, how long can love alone do the divine work in the world ? Even the Mother of Sri Aurobindo Ashram had to abandon love & call my loving Mother Kaali . (She has already descended on the earth).

When preaching to the mass on spiritual science, never overly stress on love to the exclusion of EVERYTHING ELSE, never do selective quoting of texts, never read only portions of a text but read it completely, & NEVER, NEVER assume leadership role of all sadhaks & all paths to the One without a second.

This is my humble opinion & retort to HK people who do such things..

Kaali, Kaali, Mahaa Kaali, Bhadra Kaali Namostute !!


Namaskar Giridhar!

Excellent post!!

Yes I have numerous times pointed out as well to the HKs about selecting acceptance. When Krsna worshipped Shiva with pashupat yog (and one becomes a staunch Shaiv wearing ashes, rudraksh, following all practices in consciousness and in every way), they cancel it out as "oh he just offered his respects to Shiva as he offers or bows to even his devotees"... Prabhupad never translated that part when Shri Krishn talks about Lord Shiva in Anushasan Parv Mahabharat, when all the other rishis talk about Lord Shiva, Prabhupad excludes all this.
HK accept Padma Puran but not Shiv Gita from it?? Again selective acceptance. They won't accept Krishn and Ram IF they are not matching their lineage's guideline and philosophical doctrine that was developed pretty in the last 200 years.
Krsna tells Arjun to go worship Durga. Why? There was also a Hanuman mantra that Arjun received from Krsna and besides Lord Hanuman Arjuna also goes on to worship and please Lord Shiva again. The part where Shiv Gita comes in Padma Puran, HKs say oh well that's fabricated or "in tamas"
Yeah right! But not!

So is it KRISHNA Consciousness or Prabhupada Consciousness??

If it were KRISHNA Consciousness, then KRISHNA SHOULD BE ACCEPTED! Without selective bias of the sect!! Period. Yes Krishna and Kaali have the same seed/beej mantra KLIM. KLIM is also Kaam beej for Anang or Kaam dev who was later born with the blessings of Lord Shiva as Krishna's son.
And the HK gurus also use The tantrik Kaam Gayatri Mantra which is considered as highly secretive within the sect and ordinary HKs are not given this mantra which increases attraction.
Lord Nrsinghadev appears in the mode of tamas or rather uses tamas for destroying Hiranyakashyap. So all the modes have their own place in life and sadhna. But they say all Shiva related scriptures are in the mode of "tamas"! Why?! Some or the other story has to be concocted to cancel out everybody else to keep Krishna up above the rest. 100%. Shiva 87% Vishnu 93%.. etc doctrine.
Why this constant need to prove my God over your God my sampradaya over your, my way over your competition? The God positioning agenda of the HK!
Constant competition and fighting is not exactly a symbol of Sato guna!
Why a Hindu put down? In Islam, no Islamic are Infidel. In HK non HK are Karmis. Even though Krishna taught Karma yoga in BG. He didn't tell Arjuna to go on Book distribution, make more bhaktas, or say let's get some khartals, mridanga and sing and dance, forget the war! ;)

Of course Yogeshwar shri Krishna's gopi and flute past time was a very short part of his life here. But that was what the Brijbasis were connected more with so this is what was promoted more, which is ok. But Shri Krishna came to give and show a lot more than that.

If HK is so selected why claim to be flag bearer of VEDIC culture? When Vedas are not read or accepted?
Sure initial Vaishnav tilak represented Trishul/trident of Shiva. Why have repulsion towards Tripunda then? If HK declare that all Vedic/tantrik other sadhnas are "useless in Kaliyuga" and only Hare Krsna changed mantra is effective, then why call themselves as Vedic? This is a sectarian problem. It has nothing to do with the Vedic Sanatana Hindu Dharma that is vast as the ocean with depth of understanding, yet calm. Smaller streams make more noise.

Naaskar!

Yogkriya

Yogkriya
18 January 2011, 09:11 AM
Vannakkam Devotee: So true about the ignore bit. Its when we have this predetermined confrontational mood that determines an uncomfortable meeting.

I remember my own Guru's (He knew Prabhupada as a friend) comments on the matter when devotees were commenting back in the 60s 70s. He said, "Someone has to do what they're doing (being very visible out on the street etc.) If they weren't doing that, we would be." So I have tremendous admiration for that work. They brought Indian version of bhakti right to the streets of America without watering it down to include pews, suits and ties, or a mixed philosophy. It must have been very tough for someone to dedicate themselves to that version of being so different from the norm here. Constant criticism, scorn, being called a cult and much more. Refuge in Krishna allowed them to continue. I have nothing but admiration for that.

Aum Namasivaya


Yes only fanatical mindset can get you to do that, or unflinching faith/love.
So all that is very good. Now if just the negative side could go out of it, it would be just wonderful. I love bhakti. The HK kirtans are wonderful. The bhakti mood is great. Loving Krishna is great!! The preaching is nice in terms of bringing it all to the west minus the fools and rascals calling to Indian saints and bullshitting Hinduism/Adi Shankara/etc..
Iskcon/HK/Gaudiya would be great if it leaves out the politics of religion - put downs of others and concocted stories. Just pure bhakti. That will be the real
"Nectar of Devotion".

Jai Shri Krishn!!
Namah Shivaya!

Yogkriya

anatman
18 January 2011, 09:42 AM
I was going through a Harekrishna website, and it mentions that in the Maha-mantra :

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

The word Rama refers to Balarama???

Is this true?

I thought the word Rama refers to the Greatest Vishnu avatar, the maha purusha Sri Ramachandra..

Yogkriya
18 January 2011, 10:11 AM
I was going through a Harekrishna website, and it mentions that in the Maha-mantra :

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

The word Rama refers to Balarama???

Is this true?

I thought the word Rama refers to the Greatest Vishnu avatar, the maha purusha Sri Ramachandra..





Yes to Balarama, but also to Rama (Shri Ramachandra).

devotee
18 January 2011, 10:06 PM
I was going through a Harekrishna website, and it mentions that in the Maha-mantra :

Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

The word Rama refers to Balarama???

Is this true?

I thought the word Rama refers to the Greatest Vishnu avatar, the maha purusha Sri Ramachandra..




What you think is right. The ISKCON's interpretation is not correct. :)

In fact, the Mantra also is inverted. It should be Rama first, i.e.

"Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare"

This is the way this mantra has been given in Kali SantArNa Upanishad. :)

OM

giridhar
18 January 2011, 11:15 PM
Namaskar Giridhar!

Excellent post!!

Yes I have numerous times pointed out as well to the HKs about selecting acceptance. When Krsna worshipped Shiva with pashupat yog (and one becomes a staunch Shaiv wearing ashes, rudraksh, following all practices in consciousness and in every way), they cancel it out as "oh he just offered his respects to Shiva as he offers or bows to even his devotees"... Prabhupad never translated that part when Shri Krishn talks about Lord Shiva in Anushasan Parv Mahabharat, when all the other rishis talk about Lord Shiva, Prabhupad excludes all this.
HK accept Padma Puran but not Shiv Gita from it?? Again selective acceptance. They won't accept Krishn and Ram IF they are not matching their lineage's guideline and philosophical doctrine that was developed pretty in the last 200 years.
Krsna tells Arjun to go worship Durga. Why? There was also a Hanuman mantra that Arjun received from Krsna and besides Lord Hanuman Arjuna also goes on to worship and please Lord Shiva again. The part where Shiv Gita comes in Padma Puran, HKs say oh well that's fabricated or "in tamas"
Yeah right! But not!

So is it KRISHNA Consciousness or Prabhupada Consciousness??

If it were KRISHNA Consciousness, then KRISHNA SHOULD BE ACCEPTED! Without selective bias of the sect!! Period. Yes Krishna and Kaali have the same seed/beej mantra KLIM. KLIM is also Kaam beej for Anang or Kaam dev who was later born with the blessings of Lord Shiva as Krishna's son.
And the HK gurus also use The tantrik Kaam Gayatri Mantra which is considered as highly secretive within the sect and ordinary HKs are not given this mantra which increases attraction.
Lord Nrsinghadev appears in the mode of tamas or rather uses tamas for destroying Hiranyakashyap. So all the modes have their own place in life and sadhna. But they say all Shiva related scriptures are in the mode of "tamas"! Why?! Some or the other story has to be concocted to cancel out everybody else to keep Krishna up above the rest. 100%. Shiva 87% Vishnu 93%.. etc doctrine.
Why this constant need to prove my God over your God my sampradaya over your, my way over your competition? The God positioning agenda of the HK!
Constant competition and fighting is not exactly a symbol of Sato guna!
Why a Hindu put down? In Islam, no Islamic are Infidel. In HK non HK are Karmis. Even though Krishna taught Karma yoga in BG. He didn't tell Arjuna to go on Book distribution, make more bhaktas, or say let's get some khartals, mridanga and sing and dance, forget the war! ;)

Of course Yogeshwar shri Krishna's gopi and flute past time was a very short part of his life here. But that was what the Brijbasis were connected more with so this is what was promoted more, which is ok. But Shri Krishna came to give and show a lot more than that.

If HK is so selected why claim to be flag bearer of VEDIC culture? When Vedas are not read or accepted?
Sure initial Vaishnav tilak represented Trishul/trident of Shiva. Why have repulsion towards Tripunda then? If HK declare that all Vedic/tantrik other sadhnas are "useless in Kaliyuga" and only Hare Krsna changed mantra is effective, then why call themselves as Vedic? This is a sectarian problem. It has nothing to do with the Vedic Sanatana Hindu Dharma that is vast as the ocean with depth of understanding, yet calm. Smaller streams make more noise.

Naaskar!

Yogkriya


dat was excellent yogkriya !! there are some guys here whom i appreciate, for their posts - yogkriya,anatman,satay .... !!

we need boldness, raw courage !! I really appreciate Shri Prabhupad's courage in stressing the importance of Naama japa.

@ de same time, u have hit the nail, yogkriya !! Spiritual Science & unfoldment of the spirit inside, through the instruments - mental, vital & physical has to be like the blossoming of a flower - SPONTANEOUS ! Only love can give courage. Love of the Ishta.. A mad love. But it should not be blinding.

I too like HK temples for the air of bhakti, the constant chanting & the cleanliness in temples. I have always felt the atmosphere in HK temples to be free for everyone. a place where i can love my God.

I am only against narrow mindedness, selective text quotings...

Infact, Yogkriya, i dont know whether you have been deeply into HK at any point of time in ur life.. Can you imagine the shock i had when i studied the Mahabharata ? Wherein Shri Krsna glorifies Parama SHiva? The shock when i knew for the first time, that Shri Krsna DID SEVERE TAPASYA FOR PARAMA SHIVA ?? Not only Krsna but EVERY AVATAAR OF VISHNU DID SEVERE TAPASYA FOR PARAMA SHIVA !!! I was so deep into HK books.. They reduce Shri SHiva to be just an instrument of Shri Sankarshana . For them , all it matters is Vaasudeva, Sankarshana, Pradyumna & Aniruddhha..

In one of the subforums on HDF, a vaishnava even claimed superiority of vaishnavism over shaivism on the fact that shaivism cannot do without vishnu while vaishnavism can easily explain creation & everything without depending on Shiva :banghead: :banghead: My god !! this is the thinking !! hmmm...

But i immediately thought - oyeee !! It is Shaivism that is naturlly broadminded than vaishnavism , for it gives equal place & importance to Shankara & Vishnu ..

"If u consider Shri Shiva or SHri Brahma to be on par with Shri Krsna, you are a PAASHANDI - an Atheist !!!!!!!!!! " - WORDS of Shri Prabhupada..

Such teachings go against the very nature of Sanatan Dharma - tha natural spontaneuous unfolding of Spirit from inside to outside ...

Even in Bengal, Krsna is worshipped with Kaali. The Radha-Krishna is symbolic of the DIVINISATION OF MATTER rather than leaving the world for Purusha. ( Intrstd ppl can study Shri Aurobindo ) . But HK people have propogated this image for the very defeat of what it stands for. and still, they claim they HAVE UNDERSTOOD everything !! ??

Radha-Krishna stands for the ANANDA Shakti which has rarely descended on earth,while many other forms of Shakti have descended. It is ONLY ANANDA SHAKTI that can change cells of the body making death itself non-obligatory - says Shri Aurobindo & Mother...

All Shaivas know very well this ANANDA SHAKTI - thanks to the 4 pillars of faith. The ANANDA THAANDAVAM is exactly this. Tirumoolar mentions this CLEARLY.

One purana ( dont remember now which one) says clearly that it is Kaali who was born as Krsna & Shri Shiva as Radha. Krsna is the soft male aspect of PARAMA SHIVA while Kaali is the Ghora female aspect of PARAMA SHIVA..

Worth Remembering - In Shankara Narayanan Murthy in Vadakkumnathan temple in Thrissur (established by SHRI PARASHURAMA - AVATAAR OF VISHNU) - the left half is Vishnu & right half is Shankara. So???

Left is Shakti & right is Shakti maan .... That solves everything , i mean the creation problem, the problem as to who the origin is ?? If the Murthy is wrong, then sure PARASHURAMA must have taken some addictives while installing the Murthy :Roll: :Roll:

There is also the famous SHANKARA NARAYANAN KOVIL where the same image is there......


HK have NO bleady right to assume lordship over the dharma that can comfortably flourish inspite of them !!!

Om Shakti, Jai KAALI !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sahasranama
19 January 2011, 12:36 AM
But i immediately thought - oyeee !! It is Shaivism that is naturlly broadminded than vaishnavism , for it gives equal place & importance to Shankara & Vishnu .

It's actually the vedas and puranas who give equal importance to both Shiva and Vishnu. The vedas say "Aum namo bhagavate rudraya vishnave mrityor me pahi" and the puranas say "Shivasya hridaye vishnu, vishnor hridaye shiva." In history both Shaivas and Vaishnavas have fought to prove their own superiority. But we are all Hindus, we should stand strong together against the abrahamic religions.

I can understand your shock, I have also read a lot of ISCKON books, but simultanuously, I was also reading the Gita Press edition of various puranas, so I was never really sucked into the ISCKON dogma. You are right to point out the flaws of the ISCKON doctrine, but do so gently. Many guru's from India have done a lot to conform to western standards, while Srila Prabhupada has made people comform to Hindu standards. Hare Krishnas talk about the gods with as much reverence and faith as any other Hindu, even though they follow the hierarchy of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Many other western converts reduce the gods to metaphors of energies or to symbolic representives of certain powers, I do not see this flaw in ISCKON. They are really Hindu at heart and not afraid to show this (even though they avoid the word Hindu:rolleyes:).

Yogkriya
19 January 2011, 02:16 AM
dat was excellent yogkriya !! there are some guys here whom i appreciate, for their posts - yogkriya,anatman,satay .... !!

we need boldness, raw courage !! I really appreciate Shri Prabhupad's courage in stressing the importance of Naama japa.

@ de same time, u have hit the nail, yogkriya !! Spiritual Science & unfoldment of the spirit inside, through the instruments - mental, vital & physical has to be like the blossoming of a flower - SPONTANEOUS ! Only love can give courage. Love of the Ishta.. A mad love. But it should not be blinding.

I too like HK temples for the air of bhakti, the constant chanting & the cleanliness in temples. I have always felt the atmosphere in HK temples to be free for everyone. a place where i can love my God.

I am only against narrow mindedness, selective text quotings...

Infact, Yogkriya, i dont know whether you have been deeply into HK at any point of time in ur life.. Can you imagine the shock i had when i studied the Mahabharata ? Wherein Shri Krsna glorifies Parama SHiva? The shock when i knew for the first time, that Shri Krsna DID SEVERE TAPASYA FOR PARAMA SHIVA ?? Not only Krsna but EVERY AVATAAR OF VISHNU DID SEVERE TAPASYA FOR PARAMA SHIVA !!! I was so deep into HK books.. They reduce Shri SHiva to be just an instrument of Shri Sankarshana . For them , all it matters is Vaasudeva, Sankarshana, Pradyumna & Aniruddhha..

In one of the subforums on HDF, a vaishnava even claimed superiority of vaishnavism over shaivism on the fact that shaivism cannot do without vishnu while vaishnavism can easily explain creation & everything without depending on Shiva My god !! this is the thinking !! hmmm...

But i immediately thought - oyeee !! It is Shaivism that is naturlly broadminded than vaishnavism , for it gives equal place & importance to Shankara & Vishnu ..

"If u consider Shri Shiva or SHri Brahma to be on par with Shri Krsna, you are a PAASHANDI - an Atheist !!!!!!!!!! " - WORDS of Shri Prabhupada..

Such teachings go against the very nature of Sanatan Dharma - tha natural spontaneuous unfolding of Spirit from inside to outside ...

Even in Bengal, Krsna is worshipped with Kaali. The Radha-Krishna is symbolic of the DIVINISATION OF MATTER rather than leaving the world for Purusha. ( Intrstd ppl can study Shri Aurobindo ) . But HK people have propogated this image for the very defeat of what it stands for. and still, they claim they HAVE UNDERSTOOD everything !! ??

Radha-Krishna stands for the ANANDA Shakti which has rarely descended on earth,while many other forms of Shakti have descended. It is ONLY ANANDA SHAKTI that can change cells of the body making death itself non-obligatory - says Shri Aurobindo & Mother...

All Shaivas know very well this ANANDA SHAKTI - thanks to the 4 pillars of faith. The ANANDA THAANDAVAM is exactly this. Tirumoolar mentions this CLEARLY.

One purana ( dont remember now which one) says clearly that it is Kaali who was born as Krsna & Shri Shiva as Radha. Krsna is the soft male aspect of PARAMA SHIVA while Kaali is the Ghora female aspect of PARAMA SHIVA..

Worth Remembering - In Shankara Narayanan Murthy in Vadakkumnathan temple in Thrissur (established by SHRI PARASHURAMA - AVATAAR OF VISHNU) - the left half is Vishnu & right half is Shankara. So???

Left is Shakti & right is Shakti maan .... That solves everything , i mean the creation problem, the problem as to who the origin is ?? If the Murthy is wrong, then sure PARASHURAMA must have taken some addictives while installing the Murthy

There is also the famous SHANKARA NARAYANAN KOVIL where the same image is there......


HK have NO bleady right to assume lordship over the dharma that can comfortably flourish inspite of them !!!

Om Shakti, Jai KAALI !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hare Krsna Giridhar Prabhuji!! ;)

Thanks for your kind words.
Yes indeed Srila Prabhupada spread naam Japa.
From sadhnatmak aspect, when we go deeper into mantra jap, the mantra should permeat the being and becomes more subtle. This is avoided in Iskcon philosophy as I have observed from their lectures on it. Subtle sadhna opening the macro cosmos canceling it out as the "mystic yoga" and a "non-bonafide" activity insisting on remain on the outward level of perception of the five senses only. Also if we go into the Vedic science or tantrik mantra practices, the HK don't even consider half of the things involved in the practice. No nyas, viniyog - rich, chhanda, devata, bijou, tatva; dhyan, anushthan, sankalp, mantra samarpan/arpan, homa, etc. (not writing in the right sequence), pranayam kriya, mantra chakra bhedan, dish, rang varn, kaal, sthan, all leading to mantra jagaran. Then only a sadhak can become mantra drishta. Again, there are three ways of chanting a mantra ( I'd rather not use the word chanting here), swar and gati - three main ways of chanting the Mansik, Vachik and Upanshu. The HK insist on Vachik paddhati of chanting loudly vibrating the physical body. This is good, but with time, sadhak should go in deeper with the help of upanshu and mansik jap. I think upanshu is the best that gives the result and effect of both mansik and vachik jap. Svar and pranayam (mind can only be controlled with control over prana) is also very important. All these aspects makes a sadhak "holy" literally. The mantra vibration energy sanchar is free flowing. Of course ahar, vichar and other aspects of ashtang yoga are also important. Shiva emphasizes the importance of prana so many times in his words. If we careful read Lord Krishna's words on how he went about getting initiating in Pashupat yoga through rich Upamanyu and then controlling the vital airs, prana of his body, fixing his mind on the mantra, isht - Shiva and asan, then we realize its importance. Twice Krishna gives Kriya yog or Yogkriya to Arjuna in B.G. that Prabupada glides past (yet he calls his commentary BG as it is!). Here Krishna emphasizes the importance of meditating on the Anahat and Agya and controlling the prana. Most important. This is all rocket science!! This along with the bandhas, gives progress to mantra shakti (mantra that is given by able siddh Guru with shakti bee) with supersonic speed. I have not touched the mantra sanskars here. I don't know if anyones interested and maybe an open form is not the right place for such things. Many things connected to mantra practices are not discussed openly really. But I have given some keys here that a knowing sadhak can recognize and realize their importance. Lord Shiva reveals some deep insights into the practices. I don't accept that it is not possible in Kaliyuga concept of HK. Yes exact Vedic practices are hard to follow because the person is not as capable anymore, the cleanliness, pure vibrations have changed, and many other factors connected with the way today's man is. Today's man is weaker. But Tantrik sadhna, Kriya yog and mantra are effective. Bhakti is a free flowing aspect. Bhakti devotion surrender to Guru and Isht is the basic. Again surrender is the first and the advanced aspect too.

Offence - HK claim "it is highly offensive if you place Shiva on same altar with Krishna" Offensive to whom? To Krishna comes the answer. Cuz Shiva is Krishna's servant and devotee. So then Krishna bowing down to Shiva and worshipping him putting him on the altar of all his chakras should be even more offensive as per this perspective - I ask. HK reply comes - oh no Krishna just offered his respects to Shiva as he even respects his devotees. Sadhna, worship, is not simply "offering respect". Similar lame concocted explanations are circled around.

The beauty of Yog and Sanatana Dharma is that it takes all aspects of human growth together. The physical aspect is not neglected. As per Krishna's example that he gives to Arjun in B.G. - Soul the passenger, Body the Chariot, horses five senses and Charioteer/chauffeur the mind, the without the chariot, the passenger can go nowhere. So one can't just tend to the passenger and neglect the chariot and let it be broken and fallen. If there is life, there are problems in it and they need to be resolved and its part of spiritual life's progress too.

When I started reading into the HK doctrines, there were things that I didn't agree with and I started digging in deeper, because I didn't want to reject or criticize anything without understanding it first. I never became an Iskcon or Gaudiya follower for that reason as the narrow minded dogmatic, judgmental, sectarian approach didn't appeal to me much. The only thing appealing was as you mentioned the cleanliness, some principles and Bhakti to Lord Shri Krishna chanting his name.

Anand Shakti - I think Lord Krishna revealed this to Arjuna at a point. Can't really remember the exact place.
Literal Radha as a person - why is Radha not in Vedic scriptures? - HK explanation - oh well Radha's name is so so so exalted that as soon as shri Vyasadeva started to write in Bhagawatam about Radha and the word Radha cam in his mind, he fell in a trance and couldn't write it!! But why didn't he fall into a trance thinking about Krishna is beyond my understanding.

Krishna Kaali, Shiva Radha - Yes I've heard about this. This is also believed in the Tripur Sundar mahavidhya aspect, if I can remember correctly. There is also a story that comes somewhere when Lord Shiva the Nataraj was dancing and Kaali joined in with all the Ganas and the Ganas were so mesmerized that they asked Kaali how can they again have the blissful vision of this rasa dance along with Shiva. Kaali promised that she will manifest her aspect along with Shiva on earth and they can witness this. By the way, all the gopis, Krishna, Krishna's father Nandbaba all worshiped Lord Shiva. There is also an ancient Shiva mandir with Shivalingam there that was worshipped by Nandbaba.

Yes Shakti aspect is important. Shakti tattva is not easy to understand, but nothing works without it either. That is why our Gods appear with their respective shaktis, the Bhairavs appear with their Bhairavis and the Goddess have the Bhairav aspect too.
So we accept Vaishnav, Shaiv and Shakt aspects of the Vedas without the limitations of HK doctrine that was developed merely in the last 200-300 years. Not Vedic, not exactly coming directly from Krishna or Brahma as is claimed. Because IF it were coming directly from Lord Krishna in an unbroken disciple succession, then Krishna would've been accepted completely, not very selectively.
These new doctrines also cancel out most of the other Vedic literature as "in the mode of tamas" where Krishna is not claimed as supreme. The mad God positioning agenda is not good putting down other forms of God.
Yet we honestly appreciate the Srila Prabhupada and HKs for the work on promoting Bhakti of Shri Krishna.

In my recent discussion with a Prabhupad disciple I was told that all other Demi Gods are not eternal and they die. I asked What is death?? If according to B.G. only thing that dies is the material body, soul is eternal, then the so called 'deem' Gods don't have human like material bodies. Then what dies??? They were really baffled and tried to wriggle out of the question saying "we just follow Prabhupad and won't listen to your explanations!" :) Ok. Fine. But following Prabhu ka pad doesn't mean being closed to knowledge. Since the last many years HK leadership has done substantial work by reading other books and bringing in the knowledge into its camp by lectures and books writing them as HK stuff modifying them as HK. A lot of these things were not really there before. That's interesting too. :)

Warm regards,

Jai Mahakaal!

YogKriya

giridhar
19 January 2011, 02:28 AM
It's actually the vedas and puranas who give equal importance to both Shiva and Vishnu. The vedas say "Aum namo bhagavate rudraya vishnave mrityor me pahi" and the puranas say "Shivasya hridaye vishnu, vishnor hridaye shiva." In history both Shaivas and Vaishnavas have fought to prove their own superiority. But we are all Hindus, we should stand strong together against the abrahamic religions.

I can understand your shock, I have also read a lot of ISCKON books, but simultanuously, I was also reading the Gita Press edition of various puranas, so I was never really sucked into the ISCKON dogma. You are right to point out the flaws of the ISCKON doctrine, but do so gently. Many guru's from India have done a lot to conform to western standards, while Srila Prabhupada has made people comform to Hindu standards. Hare Krishnas talk about the gods with as much reverence and faith as any other Hindu, even though they follow the hierarchy of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Many other western converts reduce the gods to metaphors of energies or to symbolic representives of certain powers, I do not see this flaw in ISCKON. They are really Hindu at heart and not afraid to show this (even though they avoid the word Hindu:rolleyes:).


very well said !! esp, the quote from Shri Rudram !!

your point is noted - abt gentle criticism. My words may appear harsh,but im not at heart. I have a habit of speaking out truth openly, even if it sounds rash. will take care.

Your last line is a fantastic truth !! But it is to be noted that Shri Aurobindo has mentioned vaishanavism as a religion & gave no further higher place to it. But he has not mentioned anywhere about Shaivism in that way. For, whether people like it or not, Sanatan Dharma is the Shaiva way wherein the truth is more than trinity. There are many people unconnected with Shaiva Maarga who have verified the supreme truth propounded by this path - Max Theon (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theon/Theon.htm), Ramalinga Swamy etc etc. The list is endless.

Infact, wherever the word Sanatan Dharma is used, it is directly or indirectly referred to Shaiva Maarga simply cos the supreme truth is not a being sitting in a throne giving handouts for punishment & rewards.. All other Gods are necessary in the scheme of evolution, but are all subservient to the One Parama Shiva.

Studying NITNEM, the sacred sikh prayers , composed by Guru Nanak & Guru Gobind Singh, we realize they state the same thing. Though they say that Akaal Purakh (Akaal Purush) creates & destroys millons of Ramas,Krsnas,Shivas, the ultimate truth for them is Akaal, Mahakaal, Sat, Omkaar..

We very well know that the nouns EESHWAR, EESHA, etc etc in vedas & all scriptures refer not just to the avataars who are time bound , but the One beyond them.

Same is said by Shri Aurobindo ...

"Thillai Vaazh Anthanar tham adiyaarkkum adiyen"
- My obeisances to the Holy Brahmins of Thillai !! Servitors of the Servitors of Eeshan, am i !!

anatman
19 January 2011, 02:53 AM
Literal Radha as a person - why is Radha not in Vedic scriptures? - HK explanation - oh well Radha's name is so so so exalted that as soon as shri Vyasadeva started to write in Bhagawatam about Radha and the word Radha cam in his mind, he fell in a trance and couldn't write it!! But why didn't he fall into a trance thinking about Krishna is beyond my understanding.


Good one!!


[quote=Yogkriya;56829]
In my recent discussion with a Prabhupad disciple I was told that all other Demi Gods are not eternal and they die. I asked What is death?? If according to B.G. only thing that dies is the material body, soul is eternal, then the so called 'deem' Gods don't have human like material bodies. Then what dies??? They were really baffled and tried to wriggle out of the question saying "we just follow Prabhupad and won't listen to your explanations!" :) Ok. Fine. But following Prabhu ka pad doesn't mean being closed to knowledge. Since the last many years HK leadership has done substantial work by reading other books and bringing in the knowledge into its camp by lectures and books writing them as HK stuff modifying them as HK. A lot of these things were not really there before. That's interesting too. :)
/quote]

"we just follow Prabhupad and won't listen to your explanations!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This shows HKs narrow mindedness and not willing to accept or even read anything which is not Srila Prabhupad's

HKs should just stick to their 4 regulative principles, Krishna Bhakti, morning aarthi's(which are wonderful) etc.

They trying to propagate their Philosophy becomes an issue or it should be confined between their own 4 walls.

sm78
19 January 2011, 04:14 AM
In our individual opinions and perceptions, HK and Gaudiya Vashnava may not be well developed systems, philosophically and theologically, to the kind of sophistication we as individuals can accept. For me they are quite primitive not different essentially in conception to the desert religions sans the jehad(which is the problem).

But the world needs all types of religions, because there are various types peoples. We also need various methods of upasana for different temperments.

While Gaudiya type mishmash sentimental vaishnavism did cause lot of problems for India during the Islamic aggression period (e.g the famous incident in Bengal where the King was completely oblivious to the growing muslim menace and actually expected Krishna to intervene when Muslims finally showed up at his door!)...right now their societal impact is mostly positive. But at that time nobody criticized this religion, when it was needed.

So no point in picking a fight or criticizing, as they are not hurting the larger good of the community anymore. There is no point in discussing their theology, as it has no value. They may be untrue from your or my perspective, but it is good for them, and that's enough.

From my shakta perspective all religions and acharas are lower and imperfect compared to the shakta religion, but that would be baseless for a shaiva.

Now, it only has downsides of further fragmenting an already fragmented society. If HK's are not mature enough to adjust with changing times, then at least those who claim to follow superior systems need to do that.

Sahasranama
19 January 2011, 04:41 AM
Both vaishnava and shaiva marga are part of Sanatana Dharma, Giridhara. I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Yogkriya
19 January 2011, 05:03 AM
Everything is great.. someone wants to follow Shiva, someone Durga and someone Krsna or Ram. Then different methods/ways of worshiping etc..
All that is fine. Nobody should be putting a finger at HK for following their method and Isht dev. This is their choice and leads to God(head).
The only problem occurs when they try to insist to you that what you are following is wrong and lower than what they are following. Even upto the point if it cancels out the original Sanatana Dharma Vedic thought or even if it contradicts Lord Krsna himself - their Isht. This is double standard and hypocrisy. If this was simply practiced by them for their own self, still ok. But when they go out and start preaching (since its basically a preaching sampradaya) to the whole world that only their version is right, then it disturbs all - Gurus, other lineages, other sampradayas, practices, bonafide Vedic thought.. everything.
How can some who never ever practiced Kundalini dhyan yog, experienced the awakening of the chakras and Nirvikalpa samadhi avastha comment on it and call it the same AS IT IS??? What Krishna says and what Prabhupada says are worlds apart. Krishna's understanding of Dhyan and Shri Prabhupada's understanding of it is so different. Yog is "karte ki vidhya". Knowledge experiential - anubhav siddh. Without practical practice and experience one cannot authoritatively preach about it. How can then Prabhupad call his commentary on B.G. as AS IT IS??? It's impossible for him know it AS IT IS. This is arrogance!! Even Bhagvadpad Shankaracharya - who was an epicenter of Siddhis honestly and humbly calls his commentary of Bhagvad Gita as Bhashya. All scholars call it Bhashya - commentary. They comment their own thought and understanding of it. If Shri Prabhupada comments on the yogas, he should speak from experience and anubhuti and as far as I understand, neither he nor his Guru ever practiced or have any deeper understanding on the subject of Dhyan yog. So it cannot be as it is. So it is intellectual speculation, interpretation as per intellectual understanding. GOD cannot be intellectualized.
So on one hand we have bhakti whatever category of it raganuga or "in the mode of radha/manjari bhav/gopi bhav/Radha bhav" etc.. which doesn't need much intellectual scriptural flowery word prowess. Simple devotional love towards Isht (Krsna). On the other hand these stories, intellectual argumentation scriptural jumbling, etc.. I'll be happy with if HK were into simple bhakti here. "bhole bhav mile raghurai".

Jai Shri Krishna! Jai BHole Nath!

Yogkriya

sm78
19 January 2011, 05:33 AM
The only problem occurs when they try to insist to you that what you are following is wrong and lower than what they are following. Even upto the point if it cancels out the original Sanatana Dharma Vedic thought or even if it contradicts Lord Krsna himself - their Isht. This is double standard and hypocrisy. .................

Yogkriya

Should it be your headache to point out the fallacy with their theology? You are not understanding that this so called contradictions, their belief in superiority of their deity is their fundamental theology and there is no point arguing about it, if you don't agree with it or find it unauthentic. There is no one single true religion, no one single "vedic" religion, how much we stress that word. The entire history of Hinduism is various sects, lineages right from the so called "vedic" times, and nothing is perfectly vedic. There is no such thing. You can be most vedic from your point of view and even find all the support from scriptures...but it does not matter.Its your theology, its your religion.

People have tried to define a common basis of sanatana dharma sects and religions, but even such efforts are superficial. In the end the actual common basis is the most natural kinship of belonging to the same cultural and spiritual heritage. Even if we have different religious understanding, we are still decendants of the same Rshi's. Perhaves the common belief in a timeless, deathless, unborn Atman is another common (and philosophical) basis (even if HK's see this personally as Krishna, they agree with his impersonal true nature). Loosely defined adhereance to a corpus of literature we called vedas is the final common basis. Beyond this three, any attempt to define a more true Vedic religion is just another sectarianism.

If it hurts you to hear Shiva given a lower strature avoid theological discussions with HK or HK's all together.

Someone else will find holes in your understanding which you may be unable to accept or understand. Where will that lead us?

Adhvagat
19 January 2011, 06:10 AM
Sm78... What is lokasamgraha?

Giridhar, regarding the thread about selective quoting that you was thinking about starting, please do so.

Yogkriya
19 January 2011, 06:31 AM
Should it be your headache to point out the fallacy with their theology? You are not understanding that this so called contradictions, their belief in superiority of their deity is their fundamental theology and there is no point arguing about it, if you don't agree with it or find it unauthentic.

If they call it all Vedic and only bonafide, then yes, it becomes my headache after a certain given point. If they call Hinduism as hodgepodge invalid dried out branches of hodge podge knowledge, All Vedic mantras as ineffective, all sadhnas ineffective, Yogis as materialists, all other sages and saints as "fools and rascals, condemning married life and calling it as certificate for prostitution etc, then yes it should be contracted and opposed without a doubt. Hindus let others **** over them till it gets over. This is not correct.
A number of religious sects came out of Hinduism by pursuing one or another aspect taken from it and calling it a different name. It really doesn't matter. Why abuse the origin?! Yes that is a problem in the common interest of Sanatana Dharma. Personally I may not care what someone is following. Its his or her life. But we all contribute to common cause of supporting our spiritual / religious culture and heritage.


Someone else will find holes in your understanding which you may be unable to accept or understand. Where will that lead us?

As I said before, their philosophy is not my problem, but I cannot close my eyes to fanatic limitations preached as Bharatiya Vedic Sanatana to the hole world. Fine find a hole with my philosophy. I'm not preaching a philosophy here to start with. I'm simply accepting the whole instead of the selective part of it and refuting the condemnation of the whole that is being carried out all over the world, thanks to world-wide preaching.



People have tried to define a common basis of sanatana dharma sects and religions, but even such efforts are superficial. In the end the actual common basis is the most natural kinship of belonging to the same cultural and spiritual heritage. Even if we have different religious understanding, we are still decendants of the same Rshi's.

When you say, we are still descendants of the same Rishis, one has to see how much of the rishi is left in us! When we talk of gotra how much is left of that rishi to this day!



If it hurts you to hear Shiva given a lower strature avoid theological discussions with HK or HK's all together.

You know I have thought and actually acted mostly on your piece of advice much before you have given it here - to avoid and not bother.
So I can avoid all the religions, any debates, whatever. In principle this is ok. I can devote more time for my sadhna, which pretty much is more important anyway. And following the same advice, it would've been cool for Shankaracharya not to bother establishing Vedic Sanatana Dharma at the time of Buddhism, nor for Krsna (since there are so many belief systems there anyways..). Also, following the pseudo-secular thing, it would be good altogether for the Hindus to be at peace and not contradict whatever the Brits and the Islamists did to their culture, scriptures etc.. This is also one way. If I don't like something I can ignore it, go and rest in my hut. It is after all not good to feel very passionate about the world as there always be contradictions and quarrel. You are making a point. But yet the saints come to establish the truth again and again. The scriptures also tell a person to live in this world like a lotus in water. In it, but not perturbed, touched by it. I'm trying to have a balance. My posts are not to alter HK philosophy for them.



As I said, the only valid purpose of such debates were lokasamgraha - which no longer is valid. Now, the only lokasamgraha debates needs to be carried out with followers of desert religions. But no-body is doing that.

I debate the jihadi desert cults too. Especially the Z.Naik followers.
If I have something to give, I will. Its not about finding fault. Its about keeping the good. We all do our bit, Keep it all together.

Jai Mahakaal!

Yogkriya

Yogkriya
19 January 2011, 06:33 AM
Sm78... What is lokasamgraha?

Apparently "shastrarth"..?!

sm78
19 January 2011, 08:05 AM
Sm78... What is lokasamgraha?

Nevermind, I used a wrong word in wrong context.....
That word is used to denote to continue to be engaged in work for others...invalid use in my post, post corrected - thanks for pointing.

Yogkriya
19 January 2011, 12:42 PM
Dear devotees,

In continuation of this initial thread started by Anatman, I'd like to copy paste some interesting views of the HK philosophy and doctrines in which Adi Shankara's true identity is revealed and a little more light is shed on Shanyas, position of women etc. I've put some little commentary "as it is" to bring about the shadow underneath the bright shining stories. Enjoy!


http://nitaai.net/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1670

Bhagvadpad Adi Shankaracharya's true identity revealed by Lord Shiva himself through the Hare Krsna version of Padma Puran. Its important to note that the great Vedic sages - Kanada, Gautama,Sakti, Upamanyu, Jaimini, Kapila, Durvasa, Mrikandu, Brihaspati, Bhargava, and Jamadagni are all considered under HK doctrine as ATHEISTS and PASANDIS. And I was getting upset upon Shri Ramakrishna Paramhansa being called as fool and rascal by Prabhupad!! No one is spared. Of course all these elevated Rishis are no match for the Gaud Goswamis of bengal. :D

"Lord Shiva continued, "Hearing the frightful words of the demigods, Lord Vishnu, Purushottma consoled the devas,and said to me,'O Rudra,O you of might arms, O you who are the best of the gods, for the purpose of deluding the enemies of the demigods prepere a course of conduct to be followed by pasandis. Narrate to them the dark puranas, which will take them astray. O intelligent one, you should create holy texts that will cause the demons to become confused.

"'Through devotion to Me,and for the good of the world, You should approach atheistic sages such as Kanada, Gautama,Sakti, Upamanyu, Jaimini, Kapila,[not to be confused with Kapila,the son of Devahuti], Durvasa, Mrikandu, Brihaspati, Bhargava, and Jamadagni. Exert upon them your power of suggestion. Being infused by your power they will become powerful pasandis. There is no doubt about it. Empowered by you, these brahmanas will narrate to the three worlds the Puranas and doctrines in the mode of ingnorance. O Shiva, on your person you should bear symbols like a skull, animal skins, ashes, and bones. Dressed in way you should fully delude everyone in the three Worlds. You should also inaugurate the pasupata order [The pasupates are a group of followers of Lord Shiva] with its divisions like kankala, saiva, pasanda and mahasaiva. Through these persons you should preach a doctrine whose followers wear no particular identifying marks and are outside the Vedic fold. Wearing ashes and bones, they will be bereft of higher consciousness and will consider you to be the greatest god.

"'Taking to these doctrines, all of these demons will become averse to Me in a moment.There is no doubt it. O powerful Rudra,in every age in My different incarnations I too shall worship you to delude the demons. Following these doctrines,they will undoubtedly fall down.'"

- So here you can also understand why Vishnu, Ram, vaman, Krsna all worshipped Lord Shiva?! That was just to delude all rishis and you guys!!! ;) All that was fake worship?? Amazing explanation.


http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/35871-enclyopedia-defeat-advaitham.html

Learn about Adi Shankara's position here:
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showtopic=1007

The "VEDA"base reveals the falsity of Shri Adi Shankaracharya declared in "VEDIC" book written what.. a couple of hundred years back Chaitanya Charitamrita: http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/25/en1
according to it Chaitanya goes to Shankaracharya's followers and explains real "direct" meaning of Vedanta Sutras:
CC Madhya 25.25: "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu explains the direct meaning of the Upanishads. When all learned scholars hear this, their minds and ears are satisfied.
CC Madhya 25.26: "Giving up the direct meaning of the Vedanta-sutra and the Upanishads, Sankaracarya imagines some other interpretation.
CC Madhya 25.27: "All the interpretations of Sankaracarya are imaginary. Such imaginary interpretations are verbally accepted by learned scholars, but they do not appeal to the heart.
CC Madhya 25.41: "Not accepting the transformation of energy, Sripada Sankaracarya has tried to establish the theory of illusion under the plea that Vyasadeva has made a mistake.
CC Madhya 25.42: "Sripada Sankaracarya has given his interpretation and imaginary meaning. It does not actually appeal to the mind of any sane man. He has done this to convince the atheists and bring them under his control.
CC Madhya 25.43: "The atheists, headed by the Mayavadi philosophers, do not care for liberation or Krishna's mercy. They simply continue to put forward false arguments and countertheories to atheistic philosophy, not considering or engaging in spiritual matters.
CC Madhya 25.44: "The conclusion is that the import of the Vedanta-sutra is covered by the imaginary explanation of Sankaracarya. Whatever Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said is perfectly true.
After this Prakasananda Sarasvati - follower of Adi Shankara accepts Chaitanya s "supreme personality of Godhead Krsna" :)


Srila Prabhupad on Sanyas, when asked if his wife can see him or he his wife:
http://www.harekrsna.de/Sannyasa-Asrama.htm

Airport Reception, 09-11-69, London:
"No. I cannot see. I cannot see at least my wife. BUT IF MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS COME TO SEE ME, THEY CAN SEE. But my wife cannot see me. That is stopped. That is the system of sannyasa. A SANNYASI CANNOT MEET HIS WIFE AGAIN. THAT IS RENOUNCEMENT. RENOUNCEMENT MEANS RENOUNCING CONNECTION WITH WOMAN, OR RENOUNCING SEX LIFE. THAT IS RENOUNCEMENT."
- Reveals that just seeing a woman or meeting a woman arouses thoughts of SEX (?). Marriage is anti-Vedic/spiritual. Seeing sons does not bring attachment to a sanyasi but seeing wife does? To what? sex?
Another opportunity to take a shot at the HINDU word :
"Note: Now we see many big temples ruled by **boards**, Temple Presidents and sannyasis etc. (many secret inside dealings) in “equal?” salaries deal? Janmastami etc., Hindu jackpots for big pay shareout among members? THIS is what it means to become darkened if you take money for YOURSELF. It affects the mind and you become materialist also."

Its interesting to note how HK temples are run through GBC boards how lavish funds collected and err.. I'll not go into the past scandals.
Talking about sanyas Prabhupad misses the main point of Yoga - San-Nyas. One who is not acquainted with the method of Nyas dhyan cannot think about it. In his words sanyasi keeps preaching and traveling all over the world.

"According to the Vedic teachings, anyone who does not accept the Vedic way of life, he is called atheist. Therefore, according to Vedantists, Buddhists are called atheist. Actually Buddha philosophy does not accept God, neither soul. They simply philosophize on the material elements, and they want to finish the material exis..., dismantle the material elements. Nirvana. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu has remarked that the Buddhists are honest. They frankly say that "We don't accept your Vedas." But the Shankarites, they are cheaters, because they are accepting Vedas, but on the basis of Buddha philosophy. That is cheating."
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 09-17-72, Los Angeles
Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupad on Sanyas for women:
"03-14-67 Letter to Brahmananda:
A female is never awarded the order of Sannyasam. Because a female is never considered independent and Sannyasam was never awarded to any female in the past by the great Acaryas like Sankara, Ramanuja etc. THE FEMALE SANNYASINS ARE TO BE IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTOOD AS PRETENDERS OR PROSTITUTES."

- Here for some reason Prabhupad gives example of Shankara.
So we can understand that female sanyasinis run the risk of looking like prostitutes. Wow! In some other place he okays in a way for a woman to lead sanyas like life since her husband has left her.

In all there are 4 stages of development and perfection of Sanyas. Second stage of Sanyas is collecting money:
Says Prabhupad referring about the fallen Guru Kirtananda of Iskcon:
"08-30-60 Letter to Brahmananda:
A sannyasi has got four stages of elevation: kuticak, bahudaka, parivrajaka and paramahamsa. THE SANNYASA IN THE PARAMAHAMSA STAGE IS THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF EVERYONE. I have asked Kirtanananda Maharaja to work on the bahudaka stage for the present. I discussed this point with him when I was in New Vrindaban. This stage means he should move amongst people to draw their attention to the New Vrindaban scheme and try to attract their attention for its development. SO HE SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BEGIN THIS BAHUDAKA PROGRAM AND COLLECT MONEY FROM OUTSIDERS, NOT FROM INSIDERS."


Gauranga from Navadbipa is actually the "supreme personality of God'head' : http://gauranga.blogspot.com/
So here even Lord Krishna is overridden by Gauranga. Now we know why Krishna is only selectively accepted!!

Simply VEDIC (http://www.simplyvedic.org/html/literature/library/Harinama-cintamani.html) reveals many fanciful stories some of which are:

"Even demigods like Siva, though far superior in many
ways to the ordinary jivas, are nevertheless captivated by the
material glare due to false identification, and so fall in this
category of misra-sattva."
"Brahma, Siva and the other demigods are misra-sattva, being
influenced by maya. The Visnutattva forms, Their abobes, Their
pastimes, and all else in the spiritual sky exist in pure
goodness."

Here it actually goes upto the extent of claiming that Lord Shiva is under maya and affected by materialistic things or in "direct contact" with material energy. Now I don't really understand what is a "material energy" and how can someone like Lord Shiva be directly or indirectly in contact with it for that matter.
But in truth Lord Shiva is not affected by any gunas of prakriti or Maya.
Further :
"Krsna's sixtyfour qualities are unlimited and transcendental.
Brahma and Siva are expansions of His qualities, but they only
partially display the transcendental nature of the Supreme Lord,
which is infinite, eternal, unending and absolutely spiritual.
Krsna alone has the full sixtyfour qualities of the Supreme
Person; even His full expansions like Lord Narayana and avataras
like Lord Ramacandra are ornamented with only sixty of them.
Demigods up to the level of Siva possess fiftyfive of these
qualities, but only in limited measure. Ordinary jivas have just
fifty, visible in mere fractional degrees, like small drops. Only
Krsna, even amongst all His Visnu expansions, is the master of
four exceptional qualities visible in Him alone."

Please note that Krsna has now 64 qualities whereas Shiva 55 pretty close to normal aam admi common man having 50 qualities. Please also don't forget as we earlier learned that Krsna is 100%, Vishnu is 94 and shiva 74 or something of the infinite... ugh.. sorry guys my maths is weak.. moreover when it comes to calculating the infinite!

Here, as the site suggests, SIMPLY VEDIC means the information here IS Vedic. Not HK. And only HK is Vedic. But as another gentleman suggested well, it should not be my headache.
So I think this should be enough for my sore eyes for now! :)

Hare Ramo!

Yogkriya

Adhvagat
19 January 2011, 01:12 PM
In all there are 4 stages of development and perfection of Sanyas. Second stage of Sanyas is collecting money:
Says Prabhupad referring about the fallen Guru Kirtananda of Iskcon:
"08-30-60 Letter to Brahmananda:
A sannyasi has got four stages of elevation: kuticak, bahudaka, parivrajaka and paramahamsa. THE SANNYASA IN THE PARAMAHAMSA STAGE IS THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF EVERYONE. I have asked Kirtanananda Maharaja to work on the bahudaka stage for the present. I discussed this point with him when I was in New Vrindaban. This stage means he should move amongst people to draw their attention to the New Vrindaban scheme and try to attract their attention for its development. SO HE SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BEGIN THIS BAHUDAKA PROGRAM AND COLLECT MONEY FROM OUTSIDERS, NOT FROM INSIDERS."

Yogkriya, if this thread focused so much on criticizing ISKCON's selective quoting, please don't do so with Prabhupada.

There's nothing wrong with this quote, only when coupled with your negativity and lack of presented information.

ISKCON goal was to grow. Sannyasis collected to build temples and spread sankirtana. So why is there a problem there?

I really wanna know more about the points some of you bring, but please don't do that to your own credibility.

devotee
19 January 2011, 10:14 PM
Namaste all,



But the world needs all types of religions, because there are various types peoples. We also need various methods of upasana for different temperments.
.........
no point in picking a fight or criticizing, as they are not hurting the larger good of the community anymore. There is no point in discussing their theology, as it has no value. They may be untrue from your or my perspective, but it is good for them, and that's enough.
........
Now, it only has downsides of further fragmenting an already fragmented society. If HK's are not mature enough to adjust with changing times, then at least those who claim to follow superior systems need to do that.

1. It has been rare when I agreed with sm78 so much. I fully endorse his views on this aspect. :)

I also would emphasize here that it is against the very essential part of Hinduism --- being respectful (not only tolerant as the Abrahimic religion followers say) even to opposing views. Various sections within Hinduism having many contradicting philosophies are bound together by this one essential feature. Let's not forget that there have been many Vaishnavite-Shaivite fights in the past because of not following this simple rule.

Let's not lose sight of this at any cost.

2. In Satay words, " There is no point fighting with them. They are doing exactly what they have been told to do by their Guru".

Now, all those who are so severely critisizing them,plese tell me, "Should one follow his Guru or listen to your logic ?".

3. Third and most important point we all should note that we are against the Forum Laws to crirticise them (if that cannot be avoided) on this section i.e. ISKCON section of the forum. THIS IS THEIR AREA and WE ALL SHOULD RESPECT THEIR RIGHTS TO HAVE THEIR SAY WITHOUT ANY FEAR OF CRITICISM/ATTACK.

I would request Satay to please remove this thread from here and take it to "Hot Topics" section of the forum.

OM

giridhar
19 January 2011, 11:46 PM
Hare Krsna Giridhar Prabhuji!! ;)

Thanks for your kind words.
Yes indeed Srila Prabhupada spread naam Japa.
From sadhnatmak aspect, when we go deeper into mantra jap, the mantra should permeat the being and becomes more subtle. This is avoided in Iskcon philosophy as I have observed from their lectures on it. Subtle sadhna opening the macro cosmos canceling it out as the "mystic yoga" and a "non-bonafide" activity insisting on remain on the outward level of perception of the five senses only. Also if we go into the Vedic science or tantrik mantra practices, the HK don't even consider half of the things involved in the practice. No nyas, viniyog - rich, chhanda, devata, bijou, tatva; dhyan, anushthan, sankalp, mantra samarpan/arpan, homa, etc. (not writing in the right sequence), pranayam kriya, mantra chakra bhedan, dish, rang varn, kaal, sthan, all leading to mantra jagaran. Then only a sadhak can become mantra drishta. Again, there are three ways of chanting a mantra ( I'd rather not use the word chanting here), swar and gati - three main ways of chanting the Mansik, Vachik and Upanshu. The HK insist on Vachik paddhati of chanting loudly vibrating the physical body. This is good, but with time, sadhak should go in deeper with the help of upanshu and mansik jap. I think upanshu is the best that gives the result and effect of both mansik and vachik jap. Svar and pranayam (mind can only be controlled with control over prana) is also very important. All these aspects makes a sadhak "holy" literally. The mantra vibration energy sanchar is free flowing. Of course ahar, vichar and other aspects of ashtang yoga are also important. Shiva emphasizes the importance of prana so many times in his words. If we careful read Lord Krishna's words on how he went about getting initiating in Pashupat yoga through rich Upamanyu and then controlling the vital airs, prana of his body, fixing his mind on the mantra, isht - Shiva and asan, then we realize its importance. Twice Krishna gives Kriya yog or Yogkriya to Arjuna in B.G. that Prabupada glides past (yet he calls his commentary BG as it is!). Here Krishna emphasizes the importance of meditating on the Anahat and Agya and controlling the prana. Most important. This is all rocket science!! This along with the bandhas, gives progress to mantra shakti (mantra that is given by able siddh Guru with shakti bee) with supersonic speed. I have not touched the mantra sanskars here. I don't know if anyones interested and maybe an open form is not the right place for such things. Many things connected to mantra practices are not discussed openly really. But I have given some keys here that a knowing sadhak can recognize and realize their importance. Lord Shiva reveals some deep insights into the practices. I don't accept that it is not possible in Kaliyuga concept of HK.

Anand Shakti - I think Lord Krishna revealed this to Arjuna at a point. Can't really remember the exact place.
Literal Radha as a person - why is Radha not in Vedic scriptures? - HK explanation - oh well Radha's name is so so so exalted that as soon as shri Vyasadeva started to write in Bhagawatam about Radha and the word Radha cam in his mind, he fell in a trance and couldn't write it!! But why didn't he fall into a trance thinking about Krishna is beyond my understanding.

Krishna Kaali, Shiva Radha - Yes I've heard about this. This is also believed in the Tripur Sundar mahavidhya aspect, if I can remember correctly. There is also a story that comes somewhere when Lord Shiva the Nataraj was dancing and Kaali joined in with all the Ganas and the Ganas were so mesmerized that they asked Kaali how can they again have the blissful vision of this rasa dance along with Shiva. Kaali promised that she will manifest her aspect along with Shiva on earth and they can witness this. By the way, all the gopis, Krishna, Krishna's father Nandbaba all worshiped Lord Shiva. There is also an ancient Shiva mandir with Shivalingam there that was worshipped by Nandbaba.




Bhai ! u summed it up !! U have mentioned a lot abt mantra japa vidhi.. Are u formally trained ? Excuse me for this stupid question.. I have PM ed u. pls check..

Abt ur Radha not being mentioned in Vedic books & the explanation offered !!:Roll:

dats great !! really great !! amazing !!

Ppl who are afraid of Jnana behave like this. Servility to any doctrine will close knowledge..

Jai Kaali

giridhar
19 January 2011, 11:54 PM
While Gaudiya type mishmash sentimental vaishnavism did cause lot of problems for India during the Islamic aggression period (e.g the famous incident in Bengal where the King was completely oblivious to the growing muslim menace and actually expected Krishna to intervene when Muslims finally showed up at his door!)...right now their societal impact is mostly positive. But at that time nobody criticized this religion, when it was needed.

So no point in picking a fight or criticizing, as they are not hurting the larger good of the community anymore. There is no point in discussing their theology, as it has no value. They may be untrue from your or my perspective, but it is good for them, and that's enough.


Ur first para says the damage Goswamis caused to hindu society !! In Sri Prabhupada's own words: "Aurangzeb was envious of Radha Krishna temple in Vrindavan (envious??. He was a GHAZI , for God's sake !!)

By propagating unnecessary softness based on love principle to the common man, they have already created enough damage in hindu society - sapped the vitality...

What more is needed ??

giridhar
20 January 2011, 12:00 AM
Sm78... What is lokasamgraha?

Giridhar, regarding the thread about selective quoting that you was thinking about starting, please do so.

Maan !!! It wud b a big effort & it would amount to fault finding. Enough info is available in this thread itself , isnt it ?? :)

giridhar
20 January 2011, 12:09 AM
Dear devotees,

In continuation of this initial thread started by Anatman, I'd like to copy paste some interesting views of the HK philosophy and doctrines in which Adi Shankara's true identity is revealed and a little more light is shed on Shanyas, position of women etc. I've put some little commentary "as it is" to bring about the shadow underneath the bright shining stories. Enjoy!


http://nitaai.net/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1670




Hey !! This link 'explains' as well, why ALL AVATAARS OF VISHNU PRAY TO SHIVA AS WELL !! My my !!! The wondeful fact is that HK ppl have explanations & reasons for everything.. Something like Christians & Islamists - Proselytising religions.. Their philosophy & approach appeared to me to be from a world of an asura hell bent on sapping the vitality of Hindu society..

Hey PIETRO !! Yogkriya is better EQUIPPED to start a thread on "selective quoting & text torturing by HK" ..

Yogkriya - batton is passed to you. will you ?? :laugh:

Jai Kaali

Sahasranama
20 January 2011, 12:18 AM
I am really tired of internet flame wars between immature Shaivas and Vaishnavas, so I'll refrain from feeding the trolls.

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 12:27 AM
Namaskar!

So we gather from the above two posts that we should not criticize the HK on selective comments. After all they only do what their Guru told them to. And Criticism may not do anything good.
Ok. I'm happy not to criticize. But how do we stop their criticism? or the so called "hard preaching"? Or should we?

After about a 1000 years of Islamic onslaught, 200 years of British imperialism and about 60 years of pseudo-secular anti Hindu Congress rule, we Hindus are anyways not very much interested in standing up for us. Anybody can come and play with our scriptures, culture, values anything. We should not fight, criticize, condemn, attack or defend. Anybody can call our sages and saints as atheists, pasandis, fools and rascals, just because they are feeling high about their own thing. This is alright. Hinduism is great and we are always so patient. Apparently that's why we keep letting Pakis keep sending in infiltrators and that is why a Hindu kashmir is now 90% Islamic state ready to break away from India under Pakistani propaganda brainwashing.
I agree with everything that harmonizes us. Maybe I should also agree with our politicians that Rama was a myth. Its their own belief or disbelief and profit agenda. Not my headache. Just as we are trying to agree with Shri Prabhupada that most Hindu saints are not upto the mark, fools and rascals, Shankaracharya preached mayavad, Advaita Vedanta is Mayavad and people preaching it are pasandis and rascals. After all he just established Iskcon and it had to grow and needed money. A new unknown brand in the market has to criticize the prevalent brands and put them down to increase its own chances of survival and expansion and fan following. This can be a principle of marketing. Yes, I appreciate the preachings on Lord Krsna/Krishna and bhakti, sankirtan 100%. I would be ok to mention here that my wife helped raise thousands of dollars for Iskcon temple. And I know well many HK GBC Gurus too. My address is towards the problem with the doctrines that are not about harmonizing. That are out there criticizing the whole of Hindu Sanatana Dharma. We have enough of that from the Evangelics, Churchian sects and Islamists, not to talk about the Skeptics. Why the Hare Krishnas?? Why in the name of Lord Krishna?? Why would a tongue that chants harinaam criticize similar (some greater) sons of the soil who's hearts are filled with Lord's name too?! Only because they are a "different sampradaya"?

The word Sampradaya is funny. One of the understandings is Sam=equal pradaya= giver. But how much the equality goes down the drain, how much narrow mindedness sweeps in so quickly is the funny aspect.
Another term that have been been twisted through the years -
Brahmachari - general taken understanding - man who refrains from having sex or any physical, emotional contact with women (often in the name of a religious principle). Here its understanding and functions expected also differs in various organizations/sects/etc. Iskcon - young man who stays at the temple and offers himself for carrying out various chores asked of him in the name of God for the organization.
Akhara - a wrestler who abstains from marriage/sexual relationship and takes care of his exercise/wrestling regime.
Other meanings similar.
But, Brahm-Chari = Brahm jaisa acharan karne wala. One who acts in accordance to Brahm. No mention of sex.

Think of marriage, wife, woman = think of sex?!?? Why?
Most sages in Vedic culture were married and had children. They did their part in continuing Gods creation. Most Gods also have their consorts alongside them.
And so our terms, values, meanings all are changed to a point that we no longer have that. Maybe we really shouldn't bother contradicting or criticizing that. Jo ho raha hai wo hone den. If the old is changed with much better new, then it can be considered ok. If not?!
At some point, I feel we need to counter that. My sole purpose of writing the posts. Some sub sects sampradayas with overzealous yearning for establishing separate identity highjacks the whole Sanatana Dharma and reduces it to a very narrow sect doctrine. Maybe that is good for someone. But some don't want to lose the beauty of it all. When you are used to diving in the ocean, you can't do well in a well.

My humble obeisance to all Krsna/shiva/other devotees.
Jai Gurudev!


Yogkriya

giridhar
20 January 2011, 12:31 AM
Both vaishnava and shaiva marga are part of Sanatana Dharma, Giridhara. I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Ya, i never said no to that !!

& Im not popularizing any single path too. Let all follow what appeals to his self....

Another fifty years will tell what the truth is. It will be clear to everyone. My Mother Kaali will make it clear.

A deep study of Shaiva Maarga will tell that realized people who are NOT in any way connected with that path, say the same thing.. Satya Sai Baba is lover of Both Krsna & Rudra ! His knowledge of truth , when He communicates is, SAME as what the Shaiva Maarga says .. This is just one example.. I have given examples in my earlier post in this same subforum..


So has Sri Aurobindo Mother , with their concept of Supramental body, SO is Ramalinga Swamy with His GOLDEN DEATHLESS BODY, So is the RIG VEDA WITH the CHINMAYA DEHA & JYOTIRMAYA DEHA...

That is what JNAANA SAMBANDHAR taught. It was JNAANA SAMBANDHAR who was the GURU of RAMALINGA SWAMY, who got His body changed to jyotirmaya deha..

The aim of all paths, all philosophy, IS TO CHANGE MATTER. ALL else is FALSE.. EVEN DEATH IS FALSEHOOD..I PROCLAIM THIS ..DEATH IS FALSEHOOD...

Now, Even now, people of other paths - vaishnava,even the Shakta , think Shiva is a God among the trinity..

But genuine TANTRIKS know the reality.. I have met many genuine tantriks,sincere tantriks full of love for the Mother, Shakti.. I have learnt the truth from their holy lips...


A little patience will tell people what or who Shiva is ?? Even intellectual understanding will put all doubts to rest. Just as Advaita is not a philosophy , but a state to be realized or attained or whatever.... So is the Shivam or Shiva Tattva...


I hope sahasranama bhai, i made it clear to you :) Thank you,

"O Lord of Thillai !! remove the veil !! "
I again reiterate that let everyone follow his path, but no trying to assume superiority...

Let the HK ppl give their advice in Saudi... Let them tell that the Allah who is ineffable is advaita & false teaching & let them quote PADMA PURANA there !! :Roll:

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 12:38 AM
Bhai ! u summed it up !! U have mentioned a lot abt mantra japa vidhi.. Are u formally trained ? Excuse me for this stupid question.. I have PM ed u. pls check..

Abt ur Radha not being mentioned in Vedic books & the explanation offered !!:Roll:

dats great !! really great !! amazing !!

Ppl who are afraid of Jnana behave like this. Servility to any doctrine will close knowledge..

Jai Kaali

Yes. Have been doing sadhnas. Thanks.
Yes its hard to expand horizon with limited perceptions.
Best wishes to you!
Yogkriya

giridhar
20 January 2011, 12:47 AM
Dear devotees,


Please note that Krsna has now 64 qualities whereas Shiva 55 pretty close to normal aam admi common man having 50 qualities. Please also don't forget as we earlier learned that Krsna is 100%, Vishnu is 94 and shiva 74 or something of the infinite... ugh.. sorry guys my maths is weak.. moreover when it comes to calculating the infinite!

Here, as the site suggests, SIMPLY VEDIC means the information here IS Vedic. Not HK. And only HK is Vedic. But as another gentleman suggested well, it should not be my headache.
So I think this should be enough for my sore eyes for now! :)




:Roll: :Roll: :laugh:

A math teacher that i am, even i get a vertigo looking at these calculations..

u r amazing !!!

:bowdown:

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 12:51 AM
Ya, i never said no to that !!

& Im not popularizing any single path too. Let all follow what appeals to his self....


A deep study of Shaiva Maarga will tell that realized people who are NOT in any way connected with that path, say the same thing.. Satya Sai Baba is lover of Both Krsna & Rudra ! His knowledge of truth , when He communicates is, SAME as what the Shaiva Maarga says .. This is just one example.. I have given examples in my earlier post in this same subforum..

But wait, Sai Baba is considered as "demoniac" and fraud by most HKs!



So has Sri Aurobindo Mother , with their concept of Supramental body, SO is Ramalinga Swamy with His GOLDEN DEATHLESS BODY, So is the RIG VEDA WITH the CHINMAYA DEHA & JYOTIRMAYA DEHA...

That is what JNAANA SAMBANDHAR taught. It was JNAANA SAMBANDHAR who was the GURU of RAMALINGA SWAMY, who got His body changed to jyotirmaya deha..

Read about Ramalinga Sawmi and Thirumoolar, Bognathar (who eventually also attained this golden eternal body, (a true master of parkaya parvesh siddhi as well), amazing siddhas.


The aim of all paths, all philosophy, IS TO CHANGE MATTER. ALL else is FALSE.. EVEN DEATH IS FALSEHOOD..I PROCLAIM THIS ..DEATH IS FALSEHOOD...

Now, Even now, people of other paths - vaishnava,even the Shakta , think Shiva is a God among the trinity..

But genuine TANTRIKS know the reality.. I have met many genuine tantriks,sincere tantriks full of love for the Mother, Shakti.. I have learnt the truth from their holy lips...

Tantra and tantrik - two misunderstood words for the society due to charlatans. Genuine tantriks are respected high calibre sadhaks. Nothing works without Shakti. All deities have worshipped shakti at some or the other point.



A little patience will tell people what or who Shiva is ?? Even intellectual understanding will put all doubts to rest. Just as Advaita is not a philosophy , but a state to be realized or attained or whatever.... So is the Shivam or Shiva Tattva...
Right. Advaita is a state and is about realization. Not preaching.



I hope sahasranama bhai, i made it clear to you :) Thank you,

"O Lord of Thillai !! remove the veil !! "
I again reiterate that let everyone follow his path, but no trying to assume superiority...

Let the HK ppl give their advice in Saudi... Let them tell that the Allah who is ineffable is advaita & false teaching & let them quote PADMA PURANA there !! :Roll:

Talking about Padma Purana - the glorious Shiv Gita comes in the Padma Purana that Shri Prabhupada decided not to touch or translate or comment upon at all. Lord Rama's words became unimportant because they were not falling in line with the lineage's authentic doctrines. Truly amazing reading the Shiv Gita. Worth having a copy.

Namah Shivaya!

Yogkriya

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 12:56 AM
:Roll: :Roll: :laugh:

A math teacher that i am, even i get a vertigo looking at these calculations..

u r amazing !!!
:bowdown:

"Please note that Krsna has now 64 qualities whereas Shiva 55 pretty close to normal aam admi common man having 50 qualities."

Yes Yogeshwar Lord Shri Krishna has all these qualities (as mentioned on the site - highest fame, richness, austerity etc... But the writers again glide past when Shri Krishn gets these boons from Mahadev Shiva after worshipping him. 8 boons from Shiv and 8 boons from Parvati that also included unending fame and glory.
Haribol!!

giridhar
20 January 2011, 01:06 AM
"Please note that Krsna has now 64 qualities whereas Shiva 55 pretty close to normal aam admi common man having 50 qualities."

Yes Yogeshwar Lord Shri Krishna has all these qualities (as mentioned on the site - highest fame, richness, austerity etc... But the writers again glide past when Shri Krishn gets these boons from Mahadev Shiva after worshipping him. 8 boons from Shiv and 8 boons from Parvati that also included unending fame and glory.
Haribol!!

yes !! 8 boons from each !! its there in the Mahabharata !!!

Shri Aurobindo has CLEARLY SAID this: Shri Krishna is the HIGHEST God of the overmind region." Says the Mother: "Overmind the region where all Gods of Hinduism exist.."

But beyond overmind, is the supramental region - satyam, ritam , Brihat of the Rig Veda..

All AVATAARs of VISHNU represent evolution of species..Krishna stands at the overmental level wherein all knowledge exists, there is total deathlessness but there is still some ego, as eacg God thinks He represents the Supreme (Shivam)..

In the Supramental , there is ONENESS..

If the HIghest avataar ,at overmental region, submits to Shri Rudra, then....

well, it is better left unsaid abt Shri Rudra...

To quote Bheeshma: "No mortal equipped with old age,disease,decay can describe Shri Rudra-Shiva... If anyone knows about Him, then it is this wielder of Chakra & Mace - Krishna...." - Maha Bharata.

O Kaali - my Sweet Mother !!

anatman
20 January 2011, 01:54 AM
After about a 1000 years of Islamic onslaught, 200 years of
British imperialism and about 60 years of pseudo-secular
anti Hindu Congress rule, we Hindus are anyways not very
much interested in standing up for us. Anybody can come and
play with our scriptures, culture, values anything. We should
not fight, criticize, condemn, attack or defend. Anybody can
call our sages and saints as atheists, pasandis, fools
rascals, just because they are feeling high about their own
thing. This is alright. Hinduism is great and we are always
so patient. Apparently that's why we keep letting Pakis keep
sending in infiltrators and that is why a Hindu kashmir is now
90% Islamic state ready to break away from India under Pakistani
propaganda brainwashing.
I agree with everything that harmonizes us. Maybe I should
also agree with our politicians that Rama was a myth.
Its their own belief or disbelief and profit agenda.
Not my headache. Just as we are trying to agree with
Shri Prabhupada that most Hindu saints are not upto the mark,
fools and rascals, Shankaracharya preached mayavad,
Advaita Vedanta is Mayavad and people preaching it are pasandis
and rascals. After all he just established Iskcon and it had
to grow and needed money. A new unknown brand in the market has
to criticize the prevalent brands and put them down to increase
its own chances of survival and expansion and fan following.
This can be a principle of marketing. Yes, I appreciate the
preachings on Lord Krsna/Krishna and bhakti, sankirtan 100%.
I would be ok to mention here that my wife helped raise thousands
of dollars for Iskcon temple. And I know well many HK GBC Gurus
too. My address is towards the problem with the doctrines that
are not about harmonizing. That are out there criticizing the
whole of Hindu Sanatana Dharma. We have enough of that from the
Evangelics, Churchian sects and Islamists, not to talk about the
Skeptics. Why the Hare Krishnas?? Why in the name of Lord Krishna??
Why would a tongue that chants harinaam criticize similar
(some greater) sons of the soil who's hearts are filled with
Lord's name too?! Only because they are a "different sampradaya"?


Great points!!

We Hindus (majority) are very tolerant.
We were tolerant when the Christians and Muslims invaded our country.
But, look what has happened to this country now!

If the HKs are allowed to propagate their made up philosophy, it's going to replace the genuine Hindu content, which in actuality shows the way to the Truth!.

So why not fight and defend the actual Truth? Is there anything wrong?

If the Hks claim that their path is the only way to the truth and it's philosophy is the only one which is authorized, they need to back it up quoting statements from the Shrutis and not smrithis.

All we do here is to ask the HKs to explain some contradictory statements given in the Shruthis.

But its proven again and again that the ISKCONites go dumb when asked to explain some statements given in the Shrutis.



Shri Aurobindo has CLEARLY SAID this: Shri Krishna is the HIGHEST God of the overmind region." Says the Mother: "Overmind the region where all Gods of Hinduism exist.."

But beyond overmind, is the supramental region - satyam, ritam , Brihat of the Rig Veda..

All AVATAARs of VISHNU represent evolution of species..Krishna stands at the overmental level wherein all knowledge exists, there is total deathlessness but there is still some ego, as eacg God thinks He represents the Supreme (Shivam)..

In the Supramental , there is ONENESS..

If the HIghest avataar ,at overmental region, submits to Shri Rudra, then....

well, it is better left unsaid abt Shri Rudra...

To quote Bheeshma: "No mortal equipped with old age,disease,decay can describe Shri Rudra-Shiva... If anyone knows about Him, then it is this wielder of Chakra & Mace - Krishna...." - Maha Bharata.


Yes, even the Pandavas themselves were the devotees of Shiva.
I have visited a temple in Karnataka, where Bhima installed the "Bhima linga" when he was on the Theertha yatra.


Krishna has only 64 qualities?
Too less for the infinite, supreme personality of Godhead :), and the qualities of the infinite can be counted with our fingers itself :)

giridhar
20 January 2011, 02:37 AM
Great points!!

Yes, even the Pandavas themselves were the devotees of Shiva.
I have visited a temple in Karnataka, where Bhima installed the "Bhima linga" when he was on the Theertha yatra.


Krishna has only 64 qualities?
Too less for the infinite, supreme personality of Godhead :), and the qualities of the infinite can be counted with our fingers itself :)


oh, u see. just as Sai Baba must be a fraud ( quoting YOGKRIYA :) ), BHEEMA must have been a tamasic person to dedicate a temple to Shiva, who is the chief executrix of the 'material' universe "empowered" by krsna.

Saatvic ppl read 'saatvic' puranas ( i need to learn how to classify books based on mental moods ..hmmm.. can keep learning ) , rajasic ppl rajasic puranas & ......

So Bad, Supreme personality Krsna had to pray to the most tamasic God & receive boons !! That too, a severe penance !! May be He too was overpowered by His own Maya :( ....

Anatman, Yogkriya & others,

Sometime i had intense communication over gmail with one ADIPURUSA (dont remember his email id)... He belonged to Vrindavan HK.. The topic was ofcourse on glories of Shri Krsna..

Then, when i quoted Shri Aurobindo (a bengali; he too was a bengali i guess) saying Krsna was highest God of overmind region & supramental exists beyond it, & then Bheeshma's words in Mahabharata that Shiva created Vishnu , Brahma, Indra & ALL Gods.. thats it !! HE STOPPED MAILING ME.... because according to BHEESHMA is one of the 12 MAHAA JANAAS who know the absolute truth which is - Krsna is the supreme personality... ( Only HK know , who is conversant with the absolute truth.. I guess Agastya needs to learn some more from HK ?? )

To my repeated emails, there was no answer..

Hindus are always taught , sermoned to keep quiet.. NOT ANYMORE.. cos we have lost enough... HK even repeatedly make fun of hindu efforts to build Raam temple in Ayodhya.....

They seem to be nowhere in philosophy as well in action - direct contradiction to Shri Krsna ??

I proclaim this: In the coming few countable years, the lost dharma will be re-established. That dharma is not, that of solely love. That dharma reflects someone's signature in this HDF, which says: Lets us win by our sword - cattle, wealth etc .. (I dont know whose signature it is; the owner can show up :) )

Even the Devi Mahaatyam (DURGA SAPTASHATHI) , in its last few chapters where it says Shankar Rudra was created by Mahaa Kaali & Vishnu by Maha Lakshmi... It cannot but help use the adjective "VEERYA VAAN" for Shankara..

It is the Supreme Father , who is born as Shankara, taking forms at will... Noone is VEERYA VAAN as Him.

Swami Vivekananda says: Aye Hindus, Never, Never forget that the Lord you pray to, is the Lord of ascetics, the Lord of Gauri, the powerful Lord ... !!!

Humble pranaams to yogkriya, anatman & many others...

Jai Mahakaali !!

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 04:16 AM
Yes Anatman and Giridhar. You know all this information about Lord Shiva, Goddess. That is why HK discipleship is strictly instructed not to read any books, literature that is not authorized, translated, purported by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and not published by the BBT (Bhaktivedanta Book Trust) of Ikscon. Their arch rivals the Gaudiya muth that Iskcon is an offshoot of has started publishing their own interpretations and advise not to read Iskcon published books.

If you guys are reading Mahabharata not published by BBT and are in HK camp, that copy of Mahabharata is considered not valid and of doubtful content as not written, interpreted by the bonafide authority of Pure Devotee Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji. And Prabhupad's Mahabharata version conveniently deletes major part of Anushasan parv where Shri Krishn talks about Lord Shiva, where Bheeshm and a number of sages including Vyas, Kapil, Valmiki and the list goes on.. talk about Lord Shiva's grace in their lives and his mercy and position above all. All this part is unavailable in Prabhupad BBT published Mahabharata.
So conclusion HK conclusion - "that part is doubtful and probably concocted."
Similarly Shiv Gita is also purposely not included in copy of Padma Purana and given a similar reason. When enquired, I was told "Oh well there are so many Gitas and they are mostly concocted, they just change name of Krsna to other deity and we cannot accept all of them as bonafide. We only accept Gita of Krsna and that too by bonafide 'pure devotee' in proper parampara".

Our conclusion: why did HK re-interpret most scriptures that they accept from smritis? To mould it as per their doctrines. Original versions are not accepted!! This is a problem. I don't accept that the lineage comes directly from Brahma or Krishna, since Brahma and Krishna are contradicted and not accepted so many times or accepted very selectively.

Some more verses from the scriptures on Lord Shiva:

Eka eva rudra na dvitīyāya tasthur ( Yajurveda 1:8:6 d)
ie., Rudra is truly one for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second.

"Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the UNIVERSE'S FATHER. HIM GREAT AND LOFTY, BLISSFUL, imperishable(ACHYUTAM), LET US CALL SPECIALLY AS THE SAGE IMPELS US". ( Rigveda 6:49:10 )

"He(Rudra) through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power." ( Rig veda 7:46:2 )

We Worship Tryambaka(shiva), Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He LIBERATE (moksha) us, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give us Immorality.( Rig veda 7 :59 :12 )

(A majority of HK preach to the world that Shiva cannot be considered independent of his own will from Krsna and cannot liberate from cycle of Birth and death so he has to ask Krsna. Shiva bhakta goes to abode of Shiva which is between material and spiritual world and there he does hari 'bhajan' (apparently with khartals, harmonium and mridangam - so learn beforehand to play)and then realizes Lord Shiva's true position and then either comes back to earth to carry out hari bhajan sankirtan to Krishna or gets raised to Krishna's devotees land to get nearer to Krishna with the help of number one Vaishnav Shiva - Vaishnava yatha Shambhu - they quote. Shiva pretty much is able to give material benefits only and ghosts and demons worship him).

But contrary to the pure devotee Prabhupad, RigVed says that Rudra/Shiva is self dependent:
"To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call." (Rigveda 7:46:1 )

More:

LORD OF ALL BEINGS ART THOU IN GLORY, Rudra, armed with the thunder, MIGHTIEST OF THE MIGHTY. Transport us over trouble to well-being repel thou from us all assaults of mischief. ( Rig veda 2:33:3 )


"With firm limbs, MULTIFORM, the strong, the tawny adorns himself with bright gold decorations: THE STRENGTH OF GODHEAD NEVER DEPARTS FROM RUDRA, HIM WHO IS SOVEREIGN OF THE UNIVERSE, THE MIGHTY. "( RigVeda 2:33:9 )

Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to him who is in form of Çipivista.(visnu) ( Yajurveda iv. 5.5 f )

Homage to you(rudra) who is sparkling hearts of the gods ( Yajurveda iv. 5. 9 p )

The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage ( Yajurveda v. 5. 9. i )

I can quote more and more, but its not a thread on Lord Shiva.
Yet for interest and continuation of discussion I quote from the HK favorite "amla purana" or pure purana in the mode of Sato guna Shrimad Bhagwatam:

" O Lord siva , Those devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet will certainly recognise as Paramātmā in each and every being, and as such they do not differentiate between one living being and another. Such persons treat all living entities equally. They never become overwhelmed by anger like animals, who can see nothing without differentiation ". ( Srimad bhagavatam 4:6:46 )

"O Bhagavan shiva , you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 4:6:43 )

The initiator of Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Sampradaya (HK camp) Lord Brahma Himself says:

"Lord Brahmā said: O supreme lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way" ( srimad Bhagavatam 4:6:42 )

"O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Hari Himself, approached Supreme Lord Śiva [Sadāśiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him. ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:19)

(But the HK version preached around claims that Hari commanded/instructed Lord Shiva to go and drink the poison and Lord Shiva following the command of his master Hari as the number one Vaishnava. - This is a good example of scriptural bungling).

"The demigods Headed by Lord Sri Hari observed Supreme Lord S'iva sitting on the summit of Kailâsa Hill with his wife, Bhavânî, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The demigods offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect" ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:20 )

"The prajâpatis said: O God of all gods (Deva deva), Mahâdeva, Supereme soul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:21)

"O lord, you alone are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire worlds( sarva jagat) because you are alone its ruler (tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagataīśvaro ). Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are alone the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship." (Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:22)

"O lord Shiva, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:23 )

" O Lord Shiva, You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, and you are alone that Secret Para Brahman (tvaḿ brahma paramaḿ guhyaḿ ). You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. You are the Supreme soul and supreme personality of godhead (tvam ātmā jagad-īśvaraḥ) " ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:24 )



tvaḿ śabda-yonir jagad-ādir ātmā prāṇendriya-dravya-guṇaḥ svabhāvaḥkālaḥ kratuḥ satyam ṛtaḿ ca dharmastvayy akṣaraḿ yat tri-vṛd-āmananti ( SB 8:7:25 )

"O lord Shiva, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of entire creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [ṛta]. You are the shelter of the syllable oḿ, which consists of three letters a-u-m." ( Srimad Bhagavatam 8:7:25 )

"O Shiva, father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuṇa, master of the waters, is your tongue." ( SB 8:7:26 )

O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head ( SB 8:7:27)

"O lord shiva, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gâyatrî are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart" ( SB 8:7:28)

"O lord, the Vedas are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramātmā." (SB 8:7:29)

O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature - goodness, passion and ignorance - are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance ( SB 8:7:30 )

O Lord Girîsha, since the You are Brahman which is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahmâ, Lord Vishnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra ( SB 8:7:31)

"When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. . What then is to be said of your destroying the Dakṣa-yajña, Tripurāsura and the kālagara ? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. because, We all do not know how this happens " ( SB 8:7:32)


"Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your Supreme Trascedental Reality". ( SB 8:7:33)

"Even personalities like Lord Brahmâ and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the Truth (sat) and unTruth(Asat) (sad-asatoḥ parataḥ). Since no one can understand your actual nature (nāñjaḥ svarūpa-gamane). how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. As far as we are concerned, we are creatures of Lord Brahmâ's creation. Under the circumstances, therefore, we cannot offer you adequate prayers, but as far as our ability allows we have expressed our feelings." (SB 8:7:34)

"O Supreme Ordinator ( maheśvara) , your actual identity is impossible for us to understand.(etat paraḿ prapaśyāmo na ) As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. But your transcedental nature is unknown (avyakta-karmaṇaḥ) ( SB 8:7:35)

Lord Shiva is known as MAHESHWARA and MAHADEV. See what Lord Krishna says to Arjuna about Lord SHIVA in Bhagvad Gita:

upadrastanumanta ca
bharta bhokta mahesvarah
paramatmeti capy ukto
dehe 'smin purusah parah (Bhagavad Gita 13:23)

"Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer who is MAHESHWARA, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as Paramatma,the Supreme soul of universe".

There is no need for more quotes I suppose. And yes indeed Shiva is Sat-Chit-Anand. Satyam-Shivam-Sundaram.
Thank you.
Namah Shivaya!
Jai Mahakaal!

Yogkriya.

giridhar
20 January 2011, 04:38 AM
Yes Anatman and Giridhar. You know all this information about Lord Shiva, Goddess. That is why HK discipleship is strictly instructed not to read any books, literature that is not authorized, translated, purported by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and not published by the BBT (Bhaktivedanta Book Trust) of Ikscon. Their arch rivals the Gaudiya muth that Iskcon is an offshoot of has started publishing their own interpretations and advise not to read Iskcon published books.


Some more verses from the scriptures on Lord Shiva:

Eka eva rudra na dvitīyāya tasthur ( Yajurveda 1:8:6 d)
ie., Rudra is truly one for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second.

"Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the UNIVERSE'S FATHER. HIM GREAT AND LOFTY, BLISSFUL, imperishable(ACHYUTAM), LET US CALL SPECIALLY AS THE SAGE IMPELS US". ( Rigveda 6:49:10 )



Namaste Yogkriya !!

You thrill me by ur quotes on Shri Rudra. I am moved to tears whenever i read abt these quotes on Shri Rudra ...

My request to YOU & ANATMAN -

Kindly check ur PM.. Pls visit my thread link given there.. Kindly, Kindly post ALL such quotes on Shri Rudra there !! pleaassseee.. I beg of you, YOGKRIYA.

Also, Dear ANATMAN, Pls clear my doubt in that thread ....

This SHIVA RAATRI , i would celebrate with your answers..

My heart yearns for that doubt to be cleared & to listen to more mantras on Shri Rudra..

Jai Kaali !!
Jai Maha Kaali !! Jai BHadra Kaali !!

O Kaali !! Thou verily are the Mother of Gods !!
And the Father is my Beloved ...

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 04:40 AM
I quoted a few verses on Lord Shiva.
To further the thread on its topic - definite modifications and changes have occurred in the HK versions of scriptures that differ from original and rejection of original versions and authorities have taken place and continues. Not just that, criticism of Hindu Sanatana Dharma on the whole is also preached world over.
- This is being objected to. Hindus don't follow a narrow minded God positioning agenda.
Krishna bhakti preached and practiced by HK is wonderful. Sankirtana of Shri Chaitanya is wonderful. Not that is any monoply of HKs either.
Krishna is adored and worshipped in Bharat for thousands of years.

What is objectionable must be countered to help keep the values, knowledge, gyan, heritage and culture of the great rishis/sages, towering spiritual personalities and their works closer to their roots.
Jai Bharat!

Yogkriya

giridhar
20 January 2011, 04:57 AM
I quoted a few verses on Lord Shiva.
To further the thread on its topic - definite modifications and changes have occurred in the HK versions of scriptures that differ from original and rejection of original versions and authorities have taken place and continues. Not just that, criticism of Hindu Sanatana Dharma on the whole is also preached world over.
- This is being objected to. Hindus don't follow a narrow minded God positioning agenda.
Krishna bhakti preached and practiced by HK is wonderful. Sankirtana of Shri Chaitanya is wonderful. Not that is any monoply of HKs either.
Krishna is adored and worshipped in Bharat for thousands of years.

What is objectionable must be countered to help keep the values, knowledge, gyan, heritage and culture of the great rishis/sages, towering spiritual personalities and their works closer to their roots.
Jai Bharat!

Yogkriya

Obviously !!

Shri Aurobindo says: "Nationalism is of the highest form of Spirituality". Obviously, cos every nation is a manifestation of Shakti while Bhaarat is actually Shri Durga in Her FULL form & not just any manifestation.

Nationalism towards Bhaarat is special in that way.. But HK , following Shri Prabhupad, is very indifferent to nationalism.. It is just another 'ism's acc. to them..

Even when Kar sevaks were burnt in train in Godhra, few yrs back, HK devotees in my college were totally indifferent & even questioning the need for a temple at THAT spot..

This is what is called TAMASIC Adhyaatma..Tamasic spirituality...
Jai Bhaarat !!

Adhvagat
20 January 2011, 06:27 AM
Hello all, so why not avoid turning this into a dumb fight and offer material to people who may be interested study and better educate themselves?

Provide the proper scriptural reference for someone to study and realize their misunderstandings in a clear manner.

Because:

1) It's a bloddy mess with all these posts, mockings and jokes.
2) If a tamasic-minded HK devotee came here he would just pour verses or whatever and say you're ignorant.
3) As you can see no HK came here, if you want to fight this fight you're at the wrong battlefield.
4) People interested in knowing more about what you are saying are going to get discouraged (I'm on this class right now).

Anyway, if that's not possible, I'll just continue my study efforts and stop looking here for further material.

Thanks.

Om Tat Sat

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 12:59 PM
Hello all, so why not avoid turning this into a dumb fight and offer material to people who may be interested study and better educate themselves?

Provide the proper scriptural reference for someone to study and realize their misunderstandings in a clear manner.

Because:

1) It's a bloddy mess with all these posts, mockings and jokes.
2) If a tamasic-minded HK devotee came here he would just pour verses or whatever and say you're ignorant.
3) As you can see no HK came here, if you want to fight this fight you're at the wrong battlefield.
4) People interested in knowing more about what you are saying are going to get discouraged (I'm on this class right now).

Anyway, if that's not possible, I'll just continue my study efforts and stop looking here for further material.

Thanks.

Om Tat Sat


Hi Pietro!

There are a number of points. It takes great many hours to explicitly refer, re-explain everything. A number of these points have been mentioned elsewhere in this forum by me too. Prominent ones I have mentioned in my previous post (also see scriptural references to Lord Shiva) why we don't accept criticism from the HKs and why we counter back some issues. To simply tag it as a "dumb fight" is watering down sincere well meaning efforts of others. Except for quotations, I do not copy-paste stuff.
I don't come here as to a battlefield but to seek more harmony of thoughts within the Hindu Sanatana Dharma (as the forum aptly is called), learn and teach. Yes I have debated HK people on a number of occasions before including Iskcon and Gaudiya Muth Gurus for days and months on different forums as well as in person. I still go to an Iskcon temple for good and offer my respects and prayers, meet the Gurus that I have known, have helped with certain services many times and don't mind doing service.

Anyways, to sum up some of the main points AGAIN, here :

Position of HK on
1. Lord Shiva (belittling him to a semi/demi dependent little above jiva God)
2. Hindus/Hinduism/origin of Hinduism/ - spreading false information.
3. Understanding of Sanatana Vedic Dharma - to be limited to only HK.
4. Addressing Vedic sages, saints, from other lineages than HK with abusive
terms, putting them down,
5. Scriptural bungling - rewriting original scriptures, terming scriptures not
in line with HK doctrines as tamasic (in mode of ignorance) to cancel, belittle them.
6. Concocting fanciful stories to glorify some personages/supporting any act
of theirs including abusing others as "bonafide".
7. Concocting pseudo-explanations to things not in line with HK lineage's
propaganda. Canceling out words of other scriptures, bonafide
personalities including that of Lord Krsna, Brahma with made up
explanations/stories to not accept.
8. Preaching, spreading God positioning agenda - my God form over your
God, my lineage, conclusion over yours, my mantra over all other,
anything - fanaticism putting down others.
9. Ideology, concept of blasphemy - If you don't accept my way, conclusion, opinion,
over yours, you commit the grave "Vaishnava aparadha" and will be doomed blasphemed by
Vaishnavs, Krsna will kick your ass etc.
10. Canceling out conclusions given by all other Vedic sages and perching Prabhupad's opinions about
things above all, expecting all others not related to him to do exactly the same leaving their own.
Considering him illuminated masted in every type of knowledge and sadhna.
11. Fanciful stories about Chaitanya Mahapprabhu, Prabhupad and other HK lineage personages.
... other similar traits shoved down the throat of rest of the world -

- are all NOT ACCEPTABLE.

and are REASONS FOR CRITICISM.

NOW THE HKs can believe all they want to. No problem.
WE LOVE KRSNA AND BHAKTI. This is great!! :) But we don't accept abuses, arrogance and put downs.

Logic here is simple - You wanna worship 1 - worship 1. No need to say 2 is bad.
I me mine our better than you yours is symbolic of EGO - an important hurdle in spiritual progress. We don't want to be in a God positioning competition of sorts. In Sanatana Hindu Dharma Person A has devotion towards Lord Ram and person B has devotion towards Lord Shiva, yet person C is ardent devotee sadhak of Goddess Kali. All are fine with each other, nobody puts down other for that. You are still a Hindu. You are still embracing each other. Eternal truths are still the same. Ways, methods differ. That is okay. One is closer to bhakti - sakhi, manjari, raganutit whatever. Others are closer to Kriya Yog. Yet others are able to use a combination of methods together i.e. Kriya, hath, bhakti, tantra that gives an even more powerful way to take charge of different aspects. All that is fine. If I love my wife and she's beautiful I can tell you I love my wife and I think she's most beautiful - this is attachment, love, devotion. You can appreciate this and be happy for me. But if I tell you - hey I love my wife and she's the most beautiful and that your wife is not so beautiful and she's got all these limitations and flaws, then I'm sure you will not like this, since your attachment and love is towards your wife and I should respect and appreciate that. Similarly is the love and attachment towards one's Isht devta. Goswami Tulasidas was a great devotee of Lord Ram and had direct darshan of him. HKs call him in mayavad etc. and reject his Ramcharitmanas - approved by Lord Rama, Hanuman and Shiva.

So, I have given before some examples from the above points for reasons of non acceptance of some HK doctrines and attitudes.

The satire comes in because many people are not new-bees in this forum and may have been discussing the issues for a good while. So the writings of the writer reflect his level of understanding of the issue, not as per who has come to learn at what level since some know more, some less about a given topic. Simple.
So some 'smack in the face' odder issues are taken up at random (example "if you make woman sanyasins they may run risk of looking like imposter or a PROSTITUTE" - Srila Prabhupad) that cannot evoke any positive reactions.

This is the understanding. Not "dumb fight". With one of the issues on Lord Shiva - explanations have been given by me in another thread - Gaudiya position/understanding on Lord Shiva with good authentic Vedic references. You may check it out.

Hope I was able to offer a clearer explanation.

Regards,

Jai Gurudev!!
Yogkriya

Adhvagat
20 January 2011, 02:15 PM
Yogkriya, that's definitely a better way to put...


Krsna will kick your ass.

That would be a great honor, if you think about it, right? :p

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 03:18 PM
Yogkriya, that's definitely a better way to put...

That would be a great honor, if you think about it, right? :p

Pietro,
These words are not mine.
Its an exact expression by an American very hard talker Prabhupad disciple repeated over and over again -
"Krsna will kick their ass!".

It however is interesting how you had nothing to say about a long post, but " kick ass" grabs your attention. :)

Adhvagat
20 January 2011, 03:45 PM
Pietro,
These words are not mine.
Its an exact expression by an American very hard talker Prabhupad disciple repeated over and over again -
"Krsna will kick their ass!".

It however is interesting how you had nothing to say about a long post, but " kick ass" grabs your attention. :)

If the simple expression of gratitude that I wrote above isn't enough, what else should I say?

I also don't really get why and what you're trying to express by stating this last phrase. Perhaps you're saying that I'm shallow? I was making a joke to lighten things up. I understood that phrase was not yours.

If you were expecting me to refute what you listed, mind you that most of the things I also disagree with.

My current goal in life is to research and study the Vedas, be it from the viewpoint of any sect, sampradaya or school. Right now I'm merely a student, I don't have much to say, specially on these matters that I recognize as not really healthy to spiritual advancement and/or require a deeper understanding of scriptures.

Yogkriya
20 January 2011, 04:02 PM
If the simple expression of gratitude that I wrote above isn't enough, what else should I say?

I also don't really get why and what you're trying to express by stating this last phrase. Perhaps you're saying that I'm shallow? I was making a joke to lighten things up. I understood that phrase was not yours.

If you were expecting me to refute what you listed, mind you that most of the things I also disagree with.

My current goal in life is to research and study the Vedas, be it from the viewpoint of any sect, sampradaya or school. Right now I'm merely a student, I don't have much to say, specially on these matters that I recognize as not really healthy to spiritual advancement and/or require a deeper understanding of scriptures.

Thanks for the clarification Pietro. For a while it seemed to me that there was a sarcasm directed at me for some reason.. but I guess not.
Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part and thanks again.

I think you should explore more and go with your heart. The lord will ring the right bells when you come across right channel of giving you his love and knowledge. My suggestion about the Hare Krsnas regarding the beautiful and good things they have is the mass Sankirtan experience, focus on Krsna (minus the selective acceptance) devotional love, spirit of community service, good vegetarian food, getting up early morning, cleanliness, mantra chanting, trying to do things for Krsna. Preaching zeal is also good. Rest of the things not so positive are as mentioned in earlier post list.
Wish you success and love of divine in whatever form you accept Him/Her,
:)
Om tat sat!

Yogkriya

Adhvagat
20 January 2011, 04:36 PM
Sorry if it was understood as sarcasm. Not my intention...

Thank you for the wishes and the same to you.

Om Tat Sat

Rasa1976
20 January 2011, 07:25 PM
Please realize that the concept of Advaita is a thing to be realized(attained) and isn't a philosophy to be proved true or false based on Logic and Arguments.

Namaste,

What I don't understand is, if you have realized the truth of Advaita, why is there a concern over arguments? There are always arguments. But if you have realized non-duality, why the attention devoted to two sides arguing?

It may ease your mind to remember the social context in which Prabhupada launched his attack on unqualified monism - America in the 1960s.

I regularly see on this forum Indian members who are appalled at the extent to which Westerners may regard themselves as Hindus, Vedantists, etc. They perceive a certain superficiality in them. That I think is well taken.

Now imagine you have moved from Vrindavan to NYC and have drug-users suddenly announce to you they are God. They have no idea who is God, yet they have decided they are God. *Somehow* this idea crept over here from India, yet I have no idea who or why.

Another objection Prabhupada had is that along with whatever Advaita Westerners were given, they had somehow received no tools by which to remember God (name, form, etc.). Just that they were God.

So now you are probably witnessing that much of this type of preaching has crumbled since the influence of time always enters our descriptions. But that is not by itself an invalidation of Prabhupada's approach. Just that his students need to continue to educate themselves. Remember that neophytes rarely know Vaisnava etiquette, what to speak of how to handle other groups. Also, most of the glorification in your post about Sankara are things I have also heard from Prabhupada and other Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

Anyways, most of these complaints seem to be directed outside this forum, to other individuals, or are a reaction to forums that no longer exist. Maybe some of these points should be considered in our progress.

giridhar
21 January 2011, 12:15 AM
[SIZE="2"]Hi Pietro!

Anyways, to sum up some of the main points AGAIN, here :

Position of HK on
1. Lord Shiva (belittling him to a semi/demi dependent little above jiva God)
2. Hindus/Hinduism/origin of Hinduism/ - spreading false information.
3. Understanding of Sanatana Vedic Dharma - to be limited to only HK.
4. Addressing Vedic sages, saints, from other lineages than HK with abusive
terms, putting them down,
5. Scriptural bungling - rewriting original scriptures, terming scriptures not
in line with HK doctrines as tamasic (in mode of ignorance) to cancel, belittle them.
6. Concocting fanciful stories to glorify some personages/supporting any act
of theirs including abusing others as "bonafide".
7. Concocting pseudo-explanations to things not in line with HK lineage's
propaganda. Canceling out words of other scriptures, bonafide
personalities including that of Lord Krsna, Brahma with made up
explanations/stories to not accept.
8. Preaching, spreading God positioning agenda - my God form over your
God, my lineage, conclusion over yours, my mantra over all other,
anything - fanaticism putting down others.
9. Ideology, concept of blasphemy - If you don't accept my way, conclusion, opinion,
over yours, you commit the grave "Vaishnava aparadha" and will be doomed blasphemed by
Vaishnavs, Krsna will kick your ass etc.
10. Canceling out conclusions given by all other Vedic sages and perching Prabhupad's opinions about
things above all, expecting all others not related to him to do exactly the same leaving their own.
Considering him illuminated masted in every type of knowledge and sadhna.
11. Fanciful stories about Chaitanya Mahapprabhu, Prabhupad and other HK lineage personages.
... other similar traits shoved down the throat of rest of the world -

- are all NOT ACCEPTABLE.

and are REASONS FOR CRITICISM.

But if I tell you - hey I love my wife and she's the most beautiful and that your wife is not so beautiful and she's got all these limitations and flaws, then I'm sure you will not like this, since your attachment and love is towards your wife and I should respect and appreciate that. Similarly is the love and attachment towards one's Isht devta. Goswami Tulasidas was a great devotee of Lord Ram and had direct darshan of him. HKs call him in mayavad etc. and reject his Ramcharitmanas - approved by Lord Rama, Hanuman and Shiva.




Far from a dumb fight, this is a serious understanding.. Just like Pietro, i was & am into spiritual quest..To find out the truth , the one. whether through scriptures or through practical sadhanas - path is immaterial...

The most important part which hindus have missed is that the Hindus ( & Israelis) are the chosen people of the Supreme - as stated by Shri Aurobindo. This Land Bhaarat is the Chosen land. (Israelis are also chosen ppl but their land will be destroyed & they wud come to live in Bhaarat. That is cos, of similarities between Vedic (or Tantric ? ) & Kabbalistic paths, leading to the still more ancient roots - Chaldean !!! ( Many verses of RIK veda talk of a still more ancient civilization !! )

But truth is zero, minus, the matter. Matter stands for the body & this earth. Both are linked or rather one. If one attains absolute deathlessness, then the whole nature changes - This was the successful attempt of Shri Aurobindo Mother.

How does Sanatan Dharma help in this? It teaches - never neglect matter - both body & outside. & What does HK preach ? Blind neglect of matter , leaving the world for Purusha - that too by worshipping Shri Krsna !!

See Pietro, more than an accusation, this is an honest sincere attempt to correct ourselves.. Advaitins too, blindly understanding one quote "Brahma Satyam, Jagat Mithya" blindly took to sanyaas & neglected matter..

WHy did Jainism & Buddhism take roots ( these religions are described as severe obstacles by The Mother) in Bhaarat? Some time before that itself, the vitality sapped .. When body becomes weak from inside, diseases have the right to attack. BHaarat had become so bad, so sapped of vitality- "that city came to be considered as a vestibule to the desert" - to quote Shri Aurobindo..

We are emerging back, bouncing back. We need Shakti. Shakti upaasana - for what ? to re-conquer matter for The Mother. Conquering Matter includes automatically conquering mind & vital energies.. ( advanced sadhaks can understand this )..

SO, why these discussions ? cos - Yogkriya put it aptly !!

Why spread false message & then ASSUME lordship over all & deride others ? As it is, it is v difficult to surmount Maaya. Why create confusion in the minds of Sadhaks? Why - I was in deep darkness for 6 years !!! Not knowing who Shri Krsna was & is...

The vedas are nothing but visions of Rishis & it need not be perfect & complete !! The living experience of Shri Aurobindo who rediscovered lost secret of the veda (actually more ancient than Rik veda) is more important than all existing scriptures... His mammoth work SAVITRI is much more than the vedas...He has said that it is Shri Krsna who will lead to the Supreme - which was called by the Shaiva saints as Param Jyothi. The Mother also calls it the same - Vast Grace Light a translation of Shri Rama Linga swamy's "Arul Perum Jyothi". This is the jyothi or the light of Love , as many ancient religions of Egypt etc have called It..

The above examples are so that ppl dont think this is a fight between Shaiva & Vaishnava.. Much more than that , all falsehood should be & will be removed... "ALL religions will go" - said THE MOTHER. & Shri Aurobindo called vaishnavism as a RELIGION. Though vaishnavism worships VIshnu & Shri Aurobindo said Krsna will lead the evolution, He dint give more importance to vaishnavISM, WHY ???????


Cos all religions will go. Vishnu is described as the "Lion" & "terrible" & "staying in the mountains" in Rik veda - "All these epithets apply typically to Shri Rudra" - said Aurobindo in THE SECRET OF THE VEDA....

Where is the leonine Vishnu - the cosmic man - who leads the mankind through the untrodden path to the heights of PARAM SHIVA JYOTHI ?

Finally, is the picture of Shri Vishnu/Krsna conveyed by HK correct ? It causes sadhana to become static - "bound by love & static" - said THE MOTHER ...

After all mistakes done by them how can they assume SUPERIORITY & misguide others - far from guiding on the evolution path ??


knowledge or jnaana is confined to ANY book - not even the "ONLY FAULTLESS BOOK" Srimad Bhagavatam or any book ..... . Sanatan Dharma is SANATANA = ETERNAL. It is about EVOLUTION ONLY..... Just evolution. Can we create a new race on earth by submitting our will to His will...

In this i have answered Sahasranama's query to me as to "whether shaiva & vaishnava are in sanatan dharma or not?

Jai Kaali !!

anatman
21 January 2011, 01:26 AM
What I don't understand is, if you have realized the truth of Advaita, why is there a concern over arguments? There are always arguments. But if you have realized non-duality, why the attention devoted to two sides arguing?

It may ease your mind to remember the social context in which Prabhupada launched his attack on unqualified monism - America in the 1960s...........


I am only a defender of the Advaita philosophy..

Plzz go through my message and the replied posts of everyone again and understand the intention behind the post.

I can't start all over again to explain what Prabhupad did, what his accusations are etc....

Jai Shankara!!

Yogkriya
21 January 2011, 02:16 AM
Namaste,

What I don't understand is, if you have realized the truth of Advaita, why is there a concern over arguments? There are always arguments. But if you have realized non-duality, why the attention devoted to two sides arguing?

It may ease your mind to remember the social context in which Prabhupada launched his attack on unqualified monism - America in the 1960s.

I regularly see on this forum Indian members who are appalled at the extent to which Westerners may regard themselves as Hindus, Vedantists, etc. They perceive a certain superficiality in them. That I think is well taken.

Now imagine you have moved from Vrindavan to NYC and have drug-users suddenly announce to you they are God. They have no idea who is God, yet they have decided they are God. *Somehow* this idea crept over here from India, yet I have no idea who or why.

Another objection Prabhupada had is that along with whatever Advaita Westerners were given, they had somehow received no tools by which to remember God (name, form, etc.). Just that they were God.

So now you are probably witnessing that much of this type of preaching has crumbled since the influence of time always enters our descriptions. But that is not by itself an invalidation of Prabhupada's approach. Just that his students need to continue to educate themselves. Remember that neophytes rarely know Vaisnava etiquette, what to speak of how to handle other groups. Also, most of the glorification in your post about Sankara are things I have also heard from Prabhupada and other Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

Anyways, most of these complaints seem to be directed outside this forum, to other individuals, or are a reaction to forums that no longer exist. Maybe some of these points should be considered in our progress.

Namaste Rasa!

Realization is a constant process. It may not be apt to consider that debaters on this forum have realized Advaita and are siddhas. Nor do I mean you are saying that exactly. But the question - if you have realized, points a bit towards that. Arguments or rather a healthy debate - again points towards harmonizing more to which even a sidhh purush like Adi Shankara had to take part in, as with time sampradayas, lineages tend to change for good or not, distortions sweep in as part of development. Nothing is permanent. Change is the nature of maya, life. Life's reality changes, contradicts itself again and again.
Truth - God - soul - is eternal, permanent.

Shri Prabhupad's hard talk and abusing others, it was a bad example partly. Preaching was a difficult thing 60s 70s of America, because of the people he had to deal with and their level of understanding. But he was not just abusing simply the westerners who had no tools given to understand advaita and ran the risk of considering themselves as God, but he drove back the abuse towards India - in fact all non Vaishnav lineages, saints, sages etc. THAT was unfortunate. Now we have western Prabhupad disciples who arrogantly announce this Guru is rascal number one, that Guru, lineage, people are rascals, demoniac etc. These are Prabhupada's direct disciples from America mostly and elsewhere and have been in HK system for the last at least 30+ years having taken initiation from Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Some are Gurus too.
They claim to have instructions from Prabhupad to preach on his behalf and speak in the exact tone and words going even a step ahead in abusing others.
Most are very judgmental.
I can disagree with someone, but will not resort to abusing or cursing. More so when a sadhak's mind and consciousness is a thousand times more focused and energized, the curses can have a bad effect. This also earns the sadhak some bad karma that he again has to work out through more sadhna or go through it.

So now we have thousands of Prabhupad disciples and then the following generation telling people Fools, rascals, pasandis, demoniac etc..
Their judgment is not always perfect and they make offenses, earning bad karma and evoking displeasure in return. This in turn is not beneficial for Iskcon or Gaudiyas on the whole.

Pivoting from the words of Krishna in B.G. every living entity has paramatma seated in his heart and is conditioned soul unless realized and freed from the shackles of maya and revealed the higher self and God/divine. So everyone has some goodness and some not so good qualities, attitudes etc. You already know all this I believe. And I have also enumerated the goodness in HK and appreciated the work of Shri Prabhupada. Truth should be brought out objectively, analyzed on basis of good intentions and accepted in some way. If he did something great, it is there. If there was something wrong, it is also there and can be accepted to avoid offenses further.
When Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu went to and took initiation from an Advaita Guru, he recognized his oneness with his Lord that is close to the spirit of "aham brahmasmi", even though through him being in the mood of Radha (sakhi bhav, manjari bhav, raganutit etc...).
My take on his exalted position is that he was a great saint immersed in the ocean of devotion to Lord Krsna. But he did feel and acknowledge his separation from Krsna which signifies that he was not Krsna himself as claimed by his more later day followers. How can one cry in separation from his own self? This is contradictory in principle. Whatever explanation for its support may be imagined.

The Advaita take on this is that when the devotee/sadhak's consciousness gets totally immersed through the stages of dhyan-> dharana-> and samadhi with his Ishta dev / shakti, his separate identity on a worldly level becomes for him at a certain point. What separates is the EGO. The identity of the soul still remains.
God <-EGO-> soul. This is a stage of Aham Brahmasmi. It is also realizing that everything emanates from the divine, including the Maya, prakriti, purusha and jagat. It is a stage of seeing (not through physical eyes) the divine behind the veil of maya, behind everything and eventually behind the SELF too. The stage is also revealed to Parth Arjuna by Lord Keshava in the universal form.
The Aham Brahmasmi is not arrogance and display of the ego as wrongly understood in the HK camp. This is wrong understanding of Advaita. On the basis of the false understanding of Aham Brahmasmi many unrealized Gurus claimed ultimate divinity and eventually earned more false ego instead of transforming it. On the basis of this many HKs abused and condemned these false Gurus and even the true ones too, not able to realize the difference.
That is why advanced ideas are not revealed to people of all levels who are at different stages of development of consciousness and level of understanding through realizing.

So we are careful with the abuses and offenses. Vaishnavs are particular about not making offenses in general. Hence the attitude started of rascals, demons etc. gets off in the wrong places many times which is unfortunate. This is result of not realizing and simply parroting the words. Nobody from the HKs wants to understand Aham Brahmasmi, just criticize it on the basis one some false understanding and some people who falsely claimed to be God.

One of the ten thousand names of Lord Shiva is Krishna. KRIshna starts from the root KRI - KRI is also KRIYA, which acts, through which is known, which empowers and reaches. KRING is the tantrik Beej for KALI. So is KLIM. KLIM is also the root Beej for mool shakti Kamakhya. KLIM is all attracting. KRISHN is all attracting.
There are a couple of other variations of the Beejas that I will not discuss for certain reason. म ं m sound is shakti in it.

So yes coming back to it, I agree it was a difficult task to preach for Srila Prabhupad to hippies and others with a completely different mindset, but his responsibility was there and any good thing or mistake he made later got magnified on certain levels. In one of the talks with Gaudiya Muth's Narayan Maharaj before he left body, Prabhupad asked for forgiveness for offenses he made, but it was for preaching's sake. This is documented somewhere, but I can't remember and was published. Narayan Maharaj was a good devotee a Godbrother of Srila Prabhupad, but later in his last years got kind of competitive with Iskcon and criticized it openly, which again wasn't good. Now his followers will follow in his footsteps criticizing Iskcon. So Prabhupada ji's abusing all other bonafide Gurus, saints, lineages was not good and not very responsible attitude from the Sanatana Dharma harmony point of view. It may have been ok as a cult leader establishing authority of own. But not in harmony with Sanatani Vedic integral spirit that wishes goodness upon all living beings, not just a particular sect, regardless of their level of understanding.

The complaints are on topics, not directed to people outside this forum. Because the forum deals not just with members but topics prevalent.

Of anything that Prabhupad said about Adi Shankaracharya, that he came to preach false knowledge was the most prominent - that totally disqualifies all his life time's work and dismisses it as false. So it becomes immaterial if Prabhupad talked about any other qualities of Shri Shankara.

Kind regards,

Jai Gurudev!

Yogkriya

giridhar
21 January 2011, 02:48 AM
Namaste Rasa!

The Aham Brahmasmi is not arrogance and display of the ego as wrongly understood in the HK camp. This is wrong understanding of Advaita. On the basis of the false understanding of Aham Brahmasmi many unrealized Gurus claimed ultimate divinity and eventually earned more false ego instead of transforming it. On the basis of this many HKs abused and condemned these false Gurus and even the true ones too, not able to realize the difference.
That is why advanced ideas are not revealed to people of all levels who are at different stages of development of consciousness and level of understanding through realizing.



waah !!! true ! true !! claps, for a very valid truth spoken out !! keep up !!





One of the ten thousand names of Lord Shiva is Krishna. KRIshna starts from the root KRI - KRI is also KRIYA, which acts, through which is known, which empowers and reaches. KRING is the tantrik Beej for KALI. So is KLIM. KLIM is also the root Beej for mool shakti Kamakhya. KLIM is all attracting. KRISHN is all attracting.
There are a couple of other variations of the Beejas that I will not discuss for certain reason. म ं m sound is shakti in it.



Shiva Sahasranama stotra - "Ushneeshi suvaktrash cha udagro vinathasta thaa .
deerghash cha Harikeshash cha suteerthaha KRISHNA eva cha !! "




Of anything that Prabhupad said about Adi Shankaracharya, that he came to preach false knowledge was the most prominent - that totally disqualifies all his life time's work and dismisses it as false. So it becomes immaterial if Prabhupad talked about any other qualities of Shri Shankara.




Shri Shankara was a siddha come on purpose. It is better to advance ourselves a lot before commenting on Him... I agree with you yogkriya !!

devotee
21 January 2011, 04:53 AM
Namaste Rasa,


Namaste,

What I don't understand is, if you have realized the truth of Advaita, why is there a concern over arguments? There are always arguments. But if you have realized non-duality, why the attention devoted to two sides arguing?

It may ease your mind to remember the social context in which Prabhupada launched his attack on unqualified monism - America in the 1960s.

I regularly see on this forum Indian members who are appalled at the extent to which Westerners may regard themselves as Hindus, Vedantists, etc. They perceive a certain superficiality in them. That I think is well taken.

Now imagine you have moved from Vrindavan to NYC and have drug-users suddenly announce to you they are God. They have no idea who is God, yet they have decided they are God. *Somehow* this idea crept over here from India, yet I have no idea who or why.

Another objection Prabhupada had is that along with whatever Advaita Westerners were given, they had somehow received no tools by which to remember God (name, form, etc.). Just that they were God.

So now you are probably witnessing that much of this type of preaching has crumbled since the influence of time always enters our descriptions. But that is not by itself an invalidation of Prabhupada's approach. Just that his students need to continue to educate themselves. Remember that neophytes rarely know Vaisnava etiquette, what to speak of how to handle other groups. Also, most of the glorification in your post about Sankara are things I have also heard from Prabhupada and other Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

Anyways, most of these complaints seem to be directed outside this forum, to other individuals, or are a reaction to forums that no longer exist. Maybe some of these points should be considered in our progress.

Thank God, you are there to put forward your points in favour of ISKCON otherwise it was just a one-sided onslaught. I was afraid that this sudden hostility against ISKCON might have disheartened ISKCON followers. I do miss Grames today who could have defended ISKCON alongwith people like you. :(

I am an Advaitin and one of our ISKCON friends on this forum (Krishna Das, perhaps) did call all Advaitins as Rascals and demonic. I was seriously looking for any protruding teeth from my mouth or horns on my head which perhaps I missed to notice !!

However, I agree with your views that it was wrong on the part of some of the teachers from India or from the West to freely "distribute" the knowledge of Advaita without considering their suitability as students to understand the finer points contained in the philosophy. Even if they understood Bhakti part of the path, I must give credit to Srila Prabhupad for that. In fact, the western mind is so much accustomed to Abrahimic religion that the biggest problem in their mind is, "whether the God I am worshipping is true God/ Supreme God or not" .... because that assures them whether they are going to get salvation or not. If we keep that point in mind then Prabhupad's insistence on "Krishna" alone even at the cost of other devas can be understood in the right perspective.

Eeven today during discussion on some other forum, I felt that "Advaita Vedanta" spiked with a dose of "Buddhism" has become a fashion & it is "cool" to declare oneself "awakened" ! It looks like "awakening" was being sold freely the next shop and "hey, you are not even aware of it. What shame !" ! Every one & sundry wants to prove that "he is awakened" !

I believe, Advaita is ccertainly not for them as they are not ready now. IMHO, Bhakti path is easy and good for them & there ISKCON is doing a commendable job.

OM

Eastern Mind
21 January 2011, 05:14 AM
Vannakkam:

Jumping on the bandwagon of criticism is contagious. Not only that, it's fails in an understanding of karma. So when you criticise (as opposed to making rational respectful observations) another sampradaya, expect it to rebound on you someday towards your sampradaya. Much better just to say, 'this isn't for me' which is just an honest self-reflection of your own spiritual leanings, and not a ganging up on. Most of us here pretty much know waht we already stand for. Some few sincere seekers do pass by for a look at SD, and I wonder what they think of topics such as this. But all in all, I do thing discussions like this are valid as they may be conducive to self-reflection in each of us.

Aum Namasivaya

Rasa1976
21 January 2011, 06:11 AM
Shri Prabhupad's hard talk and abusing others, it was a bad example partly. Preaching was a difficult thing 60s 70s of America, because of the people he had to deal with and their level of understanding. But he was not just abusing simply the westerners who had no tools given to understand advaita and ran the risk of considering themselves as God, but he drove back the abuse towards India - in fact all non Vaishnav lineages, saints, sages etc. THAT was unfortunate. Now we have western Prabhupad disciples who arrogantly announce this Guru is rascal number one, that Guru, lineage, people are rascals, demoniac etc. These are Prabhupada's direct disciples from America mostly and elsewhere and have been in HK system for the last at least 30+ years having taken initiation from Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Some are Gurus too.
They claim to have instructions from Prabhupad to preach on his behalf and speak in the exact tone and words going even a step ahead in abusing others.
Most are very judgmental.
I can disagree with someone, but will not resort to abusing or cursing. More so when a sadhak's mind and consciousness is a thousand times more focused and energized, the curses can have a bad effect. This also earns the sadhak some bad karma that he again has to work out through more sadhna or go through it.

So now we have thousands of Prabhupad disciples and then the following generation telling people Fools, rascals, pasandis, demoniac etc..
Their judgment is not always perfect and they make offenses, earning bad karma and evoking displeasure in return. This in turn is not beneficial for Iskcon or Gaudiyas on the whole...

...When Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu went to and took initiation from an Advaita Guru, he recognized his oneness with his Lord that is close to the spirit of "aham brahmasmi", even though through him being in the mood of Radha (sakhi bhav, manjari bhav, raganutit etc...).
My take on his exalted position is that he was a great saint immersed in the ocean of devotion to Lord Krsna. But he did feel and acknowledge his separation from Krsna which signifies that he was not Krsna himself as claimed by his more later day followers. How can one cry in separation from his own self? This is contradictory in principle. Whatever explanation for its support may be imagined.

Namaste Yogkriya!

I am not in agreement with the current Iskcon guru system - I lived in the locus of it when it all began - so I naturally think Prabhupada had a style that spawned a million bad imitations. That is, he could insult you in a way that would make you want to come back for more. And he was friendly with at least one of the Sankarites he would routinely challenge, and they would go back to being friends after they squared off in public. The thing we are facing nowadays is something like in today's music, where you are bombarded by countless acts obsessed with acting cool without having any actual talent.

Prabhupada preached that everyone has to realize "aham brahmasmi" qualitatively and much of the over-emphasis on lineage in the beginning was due to the fact that many of his own disciples would go off and get confused by other camps while traveling through India. It's not good to mix things up when you are just a sprout. It's better to cooperate with the ones that planted and watered you in the first place.

You say that if Chaitanya was in separation from Krishna he could not be Krishna. If Chaitanya was Krishna, he could do anything he wants, really. The siddhanta here is that the internal purpose for Chaitanya's advent was to experience the love for himself attained by the best of the gopis. Separation is the highest aspect of this love since there is increased hankering and that is what Krishna wanted to experience.

Srila Prabhupada's denouncing the doctrine of Advaita doesn't sublate the mission of Sankara. Buddha didn't sublate the Vedas, he just kicked them out for the time being. Prabhupada prayed to Krishna, "you can do anything you want with me", so his mission had a purpose even if it became so quickly degraded. I personally have a very high regard for Sankara after spending time in Iskcon. He wrote great works of bhakti. Prabhupada himself glorified some of these works.That is the perfection of life, that no matter how wrong-headed someone might seem, if they somehow manage to develop just a drop of prema.

Anyways, most of the fighting between the two groups is as old as time. Surely you have seen or heard of the way Advaitins have belittled Vaisnavas in the more distant past. But you should see some of the phoney-baloney spiritualists we have in the West. If you were to tell them that the goal of yoga was love of God, they would not even know what you are talking about. At least for a time Iskcon was the only true Indian export of the 20th century - even if it was a very short time at that!

Yogkriya
21 January 2011, 12:00 PM
Namaste Rasa,

Thank God, you are there to put forward your points in favour of ISKCON otherwise it was just a one-sided onslaught. I was afraid that this sudden hostility against ISKCON might have disheartened ISKCON followers. I do miss Grames today who could have defended ISKCON alongwith people like you. :(

Dear 'devotee',
Please accept my obeisance. Namaskar!

Looks like you totally missed my points in favor of ISKCON, which is why you feel its a "one sided ONSLAUGHT". :rolleyes:
Nor is it a sudden HOSTILITY towards ISKCON. I have discussed issues with Grames at length before on Gaudiya perspective on Shiva thread and can afford only so much time to go on repeating the same arguments again. If a person is not interested in Krsna but a later day sampradaya's interpretations, it is fine and he should follow it in his heart to reach Krsna. That I cannot debate. Similarly I can follow What Krsna, Rama, Brahma and multitude of sages have said about Shiva.
And then for me Supreme is ShivaHari. But this is not always liked, as the competition falls down. :)

Shastrarth is not a matter of ill-argument (kutartk) and competitive clash of EGOS - which it becomes at a certain point. This should be avoided. As it helps generate 'dvesh-bhav' against one for of deity or the other - be it Shiva or Krsna/Vishnu. This is not acceptable to Lord Shiva and definitely not to Lord Krishna.

My "onslaught" is about dealing with sectarian issues that seep in as certain distortion due to various reasons, instead of erecting a wall of sampradaya opposition. At the same time I do notice and appreciate the good in ISKCON that I have enumerated before (the post that you missed). In spite of anti-Hindu, belittling Shiva as a demi-God stance of HK, I do not feel any "hostility" towards them as you have unaptly assumed in the post.


I am an Advaitin and one of our ISKCON friends on this forum (Krishna Das, perhaps) did call all Advaitins as Rascals and demonic. I was seriously looking for any protruding teeth from my mouth or horns on my head which perhaps I missed to notice !!

Indeed never heard any advaitins to have any of those!:cool1:


However, I agree with your views that it was wrong on the part of some of the teachers from India or from the West to freely "distribute" the knowledge of Advaita without considering their suitability as students to understand the finer points contained in the philosophy. Even if they understood Bhakti part of the path, I must give credit to Srila Prabhupad for that. In fact, the western mind is so much accustomed to Abrahimic religion that the biggest problem in their mind is, "whether the God I am worshipping is true God/ Supreme God or not" .... because that assures them whether they are going to get salvation or not. If we keep that point in mind then Prabhupad's insistence on "Krishna" alone even at the cost of other devas can be understood in the right perspective.
OM

"Krishna alone" perspective of Prabhupad is fine. Advaita is also fine. The duty of Guru is to correct understanding of the disciple. In Hinduism, people are free to follow Krishna only, Shiva only, Durga only, Kali only, Ganesha only, Lakshmi only, Murugan only, and so on.
If that is the requirement, then do Krishna only.
It is when someone does Krishna only BUT other NOT cuz other is lower, demi, servant etc.. Goswamis pure devotees, others fools rascals, demoniac etc.... and that gives rise to a different type of onslaught.
All this should be avoided.

Once you dump the Integrity part of Sanatana Dharma, you are left with sectarian fanatic competition and it no longer is SANATANA.
This is an important part that Shiva and Krsna reveal, that is missed by the sub-sampradayas as their focus gets more on separate identity.

Truth is one, wise call him by many names.
Namaskar!

Yogkriya

Yogkriya
21 January 2011, 12:53 PM
Namaste Yogkriya!

I am not in agreement with the current Iskcon guru system - I lived in the locus of it when it all began - so I naturally think Prabhupada had a style that spawned a million bad imitations.

Namaste Rasa ji!

Why not? The current Iskcon Guru system - GBC - Governing Body Commission was established and defined by BhaktiSiddhanta Sarasvati Thakkur - Guru of Prabhupada which couldn't be implemented properly then and Prabhupad applied it to Iskcon as how it should be after him.
Of course the deviations and changes do come in. When it all began was apparently one of the worst times with most so called Gurus perched on by Prabhupada fell down bad with various scandals (sex, money laundering, drugs, murder etc.). But the system in principle was okayed by Prabhupad. Those people weren't really ready.


That is, he could insult you in a way that would make you want to come back for more. And he was friendly with at least one of the Sankarites he would routinely challenge, and they would go back to being friends after they squared off in public. The thing we are facing nowadays is something like in today's music, where you are bombarded by countless acts obsessed with acting cool without having any actual talent.

I would've come back! ;) At a point, I wanted to debate Prabhupad, since I became tired of talking to GBCs and other people parroting things without realization in it. Their compulsion was to say exactly what he said, but not question the why and how. I had some interesting realizations about Srila Prabhupada that I had through sadhna and my conversations with him, which I'm not sure would be appropriate to describe here.
One thing I would say is if he would be more integral and not used kind of abusive attitude towards others, he would be loved not only in the HK fold. He was a strong preacher.


Prabhupada preached that everyone has to realize "aham brahmasmi" qualitatively and much of the over-emphasis on lineage in the beginning was due to the fact that many of his own disciples would go off and get confused by other camps while traveling through India. It's not good to mix things up when you are just a sprout. It's better to cooperate with the ones that planted and watered you in the first place.

Not really known Prabhupad to be preaching on realizing "aham brahmasmi". Though he did say things against Advaita, and aham brahmasmi lumping it all up into "mayavad" almost making it sound identical of a dirty word.

I do however remember a talk with a neophyte disciple of his who was insisting on going to preach. Prabhupad told him to realize himself first and understand first, then preach. This is positive.
But in the zeal of preaching not many people honestly realize. What is taken as realization during book distribution, namahata programs, temple service is a very different type of realization and revelations a sadhak gets during meditation, Yog siddhi sadhana. In HK, all the book distribution kind of "realizations" are almost considered at par with a yogi's revelations with higher cosmic states of consciousness.

I think nothing is easy and free. Neither bhakti, nor yog. Important is to have the right Guru and disciple.


You say that if Chaitanya was in separation from Krishna he could not be Krishna. If Chaitanya was Krishna, he could do anything he wants, really. The siddhanta here is that the internal purpose for Chaitanya's advent was to experience the love for himself attained by the best of the gopis. Separation is the highest aspect of this love since there is increased hankering and that is what Krishna wanted to experience.

Yes I am aware of that siddhant explanation of the Gaudiyas. But the siddhanta was made in the last about 300 hundred years only. The perfect yogeshwar Shri Krishn with all the opulences, qualities is in constant enjoyment of his Ananda shakti which is above other enjoyments.
Separation is object of desire unattained. It sadhak on the way.
Possibly we can let such an explanation that Krsna wanted to "feel love" and came to feel it like Radha in seperation from him, incarnating in "channa avatar" = hidden unmentioned avatara of Gauranga. This explanation is one from the heart of a bhakta which is talking of love, attachment, emotions, sentiments. Here no conclusions, debates, flowery language of scriptural this over that etc. are required. Here is a bhakta with his heart and he should go after his Ishta. Period. Here one cannot expect or insist on Vedic Truth and its explanations. What the bhakta feel is good as love and devotion are of prime importance here and they should be considered thus.
However from an Advait point of view and on what GOD is, one beyond the bondage of Maya, prakriti, in pure super consciousness and bliss, there is no necessity for another need. The needs are of Jivas who run here and there to fulfill them.
Yet, Krishna was also called mayavi, player with maya and was master of Lilas. If Krsna wants to feel something, our logic or arguments cannot stop him. So based on nature of God as explained by the sages and Vedanta, I don't consider Chaitanya to be Krishna. Krishna was Krishna. But being a bhakta, I leave the possibility open too. I'm not any judge here.


Srila Prabhupada's denouncing the doctrine of Advaita doesn't sublate the mission of Sankara. Buddha didn't sublate the Vedas, he just kicked them out for the time being. Prabhupada prayed to Krishna, "you can do anything you want with me", so his mission had a purpose even if it became so quickly degraded. I personally have a very high regard for Sankara after spending time in Iskcon. He wrote great works of bhakti. Prabhupada himself glorified some of these works.

Please send me any references where Prabhupad is glorifying Shri Shankaracharya's works. Of course they are the ones that hail Hari!
One "bhaj Govindam - moodh mate" has been around HK circles pretty much when talk starts on Shankara canceling out all his works and asking to Bhaj Govindam bringing it all back into validating HK doctrines then. :)



That is the perfection of life, that no matter how wrong-headed someone might seem, if they somehow manage to develop just a drop of prema.

I have to agree Rasa. Prema binds the Ishta to Bhakta. Can't help remembering "Sabse unchi prem sagai" bhajan of Chitra Singh.

It is amazing how Srila Prabhupada incessantly talked about Lord Krsna bhakti and his qualities. Its even more amazing how Shri Shankara talked about God as Govinda, Devi, Shiva, Bhairava.... with amazing devotion and power, without the need to put down the other form. The thing I love about Shankara is that he directly realized what he spoke. The truth in his words emanated from his realization of it and not just from scriptural reading and believing.
In Kriya Kundalini Yog, stages when a siddha sadhak has his chakras activated and Kundalini shakti reaches Sahastrar through Manipur upwards, various branches of knowledge opens up to him with direct understanding and perception of these knowledges. Then it is no longer necessary for him to read or cram up books. The subtle macro cosmos hidden underneath the sheath of maya and gross material form reveals itself to him and so do the Vedas and scriptures.

My Gurudev Paramhansa Swami Nikhileshwarananda whos sanyasi image is on my avatara could speak on any scripture, recite any sanskrit shloka from any of the 108 upanishads, 4 Vedas, or reveal the now disappeared scriptures without ever looking at a book.



Anyways, most of the fighting between the two groups is as old as time. Surely you have seen or heard of the way Advaitins have belittled Vaisnavas in the more distant past. But you should see some of the phoney-baloney spiritualists we have in the West. If you were to tell them that the goal of yoga was love of God, they would not even know what you are talking about. At least for a time Iskcon was the only true Indian export of the 20th century - even if it was a very short time at that!

Agree again. Its been around for a long time! The same about Shiva-Rama/Krsna followers too.
Like it is said: "The problem is not with Shiva and Rama. The problem is with Shiva's ghosts and Rama's monkeys." - implying that each considering higher his master, Ishta wants to feel prouder. :)
I feel lucky to cry with love on Janamashtami and Shivratri, any day in Shiva or Rama temple alike. Who can claim to understand their greatness?! Our knowledge and theories are bookish for most part!
Thanks for the satsang.

Jai Gurudev!!

Yogkriya

Rasa1976
22 January 2011, 07:54 AM
Please send me any references where Prabhupad is glorifying Shri Shankaracharya's works. Of course they are the ones that hail Hari! One "bhaj Govindam - moodh mate" has been around HK circles pretty much when talk starts on Shankara canceling out all his works and asking to Bhaj Govindam bringing it all back into validating HK doctrines then. :)

Srila Prabhupada, who began the performance of the Ratha-yatra festival all over the world, was inspired in part by the Jagannathastakam...



In the afternoon, Sevasiva Rath came again to see Prabhupada, accompanied this time by another Puri brahmana. They gave Prabhupada some Jagannatha prasadam and sang the Jagannathastakam. In silent appreciation Prabhupada listened as the brahmanas sang the famous prayers with each verse ending jagannathah svami nayana-patha-gami bhavatu me (“O Lord of the universe, kindly be visible unto me.”) When the two brahmanas finished singing, Prabhupada said, “So these European and American Vaisnavas, they are hankering after jagannathah svami nayana-patha-gami bhavatu me. Now it is through your intervention that they may be able to see Jagannatha Svami. They are hankering like that-jagannathah svami nayana-patha-gami.. http://www.sivaramaswami.com/en/2007/03/04/prabhupada-in-puri/


I don't think it would have come as any surprise to him that this hymn was written by Sankara, since he had translated one of the chapters of the Bhagavata he named "Chanting the Song Sung by Lord Siva" all in praise of Sri Krishna.

Here is another great work of bhakti by Sankara I enjoy called Bhagavan Manasa Puja http://www.celextel.org/adisankara/bhagawanmanasapooja.html

I guess we could go back and forth for weeks on end, you saying Shiva is Bhagavan because Krishna is his servant, me saying Chaitanya is Radha-Krishna combined who was born with all the symbols of an avatar imprinted on his holy lotus feet. Or maybe that we both know either to be supreme because we have personally witnessed the brahmajyoti emanating from them penetrating the darkest regions of our heart. Some of these arguments I think are good because they keep angry people stuck on the subject of the Absolute. So if we kept it up long enough maybe Sankara would appear himself and tell us both of us were right and compose another hymn!

As far as the guru system, I don't know where Prabhupada personally sanctioned it. The confession that came forth from the 11 appointed gurus in the 1987 guru reform, which was centered in the Philadelphia area, was that "there was never an appointment". There are endless webpages you can find on this subject, perhaps this one by Gurukripa is most relevant right now.. http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials3931.htm

That system (zonal acarya) was abolished, and a new one put in place called MASS (multiple acarya successor system). That is based (as far as I know, since I have been inactive in Iskcon since) on the CC verse "yare dekha, tare kaha krsna-upadesa. One must therefore become a sincere servant of Krsna. amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa (Madhya 7.128). One should become a guru and spread Krsna consciousness all over the world."

This verse to me seems to imply the requirement of realization, which you have emphasized several times. But recently it seems there is a sort of rubber-stamping by the GBC, after a brief term of qualification. However, let me also say that even though I don't agree with the current system, that doesn't mean that some qualified gurus won't come out of it. I do think there are some gurus that will help disciples advance until death. Just that the system itself seems too liberal and somewhat artificial.

Sahasranama
22 January 2011, 07:59 AM
Talking about ratha yatras: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkRZI7OxBs

devotee
22 January 2011, 09:18 AM
Namaste Yogkriya,



Looks like you totally missed my points in favor of ISKCON, which is why you feel its a "one sided ONSLAUGHT". :rolleyes:
Nor is it a sudden HOSTILITY towards ISKCON. I have discussed issues with Grames at length before on Gaudiya perspective on Shiva thread and can afford only so much time to go on repeating the same arguments again. If a person is not interested in Krsna but a later day sampradaya's interpretations, it is fine and he should follow it in his heart to reach Krsna. That I cannot debate. Similarly I can follow What Krsna, Rama, Brahma and multitude of sages have said about Shiva.
And then for me Supreme is ShivaHari. But this is not always liked, as the competition falls down. :)

Shastrarth is not a matter of ill-argument (kutartk) and competitive clash of EGOS - which it becomes at a certain point. This should be avoided. As it helps generate 'dvesh-bhav' against one for of deity or the other - be it Shiva or Krsna/Vishnu. This is not acceptable to Lord Shiva and definitely not to Lord Krishna.

My "onslaught" is about dealing with sectarian issues that seep in as certain distortion due to various reasons, instead of erecting a wall of sampradaya opposition. At the same time I do notice and appreciate the good in ISKCON that I have enumerated before (the post that you missed). In spite of anti-Hindu, belittling Shiva as a demi-God stance of HK, I do not feel any "hostility" towards them as you have unaptly assumed in the post.

I understand your view point and agree with you. However, normally such "debates" tend to degenerate into personal attacks, sarcasms & insults & serves no purpose except creating bad blood. That is why I wanted to stop it. Again I didn't want that they should feel unwanted/unwelcome here, as in this thread almost everyone had some grudge against ISKCON without anyone standing in favour of ISKCON. That gave an impression of some ganging up against them (it was not true but it appeared like that). As you also agree, they are very much part of our Hindu family in spite of our differences with them & therefore they are our own brethren. The points being brought up in this thread have been discussed/debated earlier too (I being part of some of such debates) and it did not result in any better situation.

However, if this debate can bring out something good, there is nothing like it. :)

OM

Deva
23 January 2011, 02:45 PM
Arguments will not solve the dilemma of infinite samsara – birth, death, disease, old age or death. The monists and the dualists will forever argue who possesses the correct philosophy. There’s not enough time left in our lives for argumentation. If your path liberates you from samsara, then that is the correct one. Are you liberated? How do you know? Before enlightenment – chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment – chop wood, carry water. Let the real spiritual masters disseminate spiritual knowledge and not the immature followers of Prabhupada, Shankara or any other.

Yes Srila Prabhupada said many things; wrote volumes of literature. Prabhupada is a great spiritual master. Still, he may not be perfect. What to speak of his followers. Only God is perfect. Shankaracharya is incarnation of Lord Shiva. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is incarnation of Krishna. They are perfect. Follow one of Them and choose your spiritual master, who is a representative, very carefully. In the Sri Upadeshamrita it states, “A sober person, who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals, is qualified to make disciples all over the world.” This should be the barometer when accepting a spiritual teacher. Doesn’t this make more sense, rather than criticizing each other and the great spiritual teachers also?

No spiritual master desires to lose disciples to another sect. They must uphold the dignity of their particular Sampradaya. However, they may try to convince others by logic, which includes the recitation of proofs (verses) from previous spiritual teachers. Hence, they teach their disciples to do the same. It is practice for the student to also uphold the dignity of their line. Nevertheless one sometimes offend others due to lack of maturity. In the interim, the student may not perfectly present the philosophy so arguments many ensue. Arguments may be presented by neophytes but it is all inconclusive. At the end of the day, has our devotion to God increased. Do we love our spiritual master and God even more, or do we hate our opponent?

For the Vaisnava’s or Shankarites please don’t forget the words of Shankara from the famous Bhaja Govinda prayers, “Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time of death the rules of grammer, which you are trying to cram and master, will not be able to rescue you at all.”

If you are interested please visit my website www.aumganesha.com (http://www.aumganesha.com/). There you will find information on the glorious Ganesha Purana.

Yogkriya
24 January 2011, 01:34 AM
Arguments will not solve the dilemma of infinite samsara – birth, death, disease, old age or death. The monists and the dualists will forever argue who possesses the correct philosophy. There’s not enough time left in our lives for argumentation. If your path liberates you from samsara, then that is the correct one. Are you liberated? How do you know? Before enlightenment – chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment – chop wood, carry water. Let the real spiritual masters disseminate spiritual knowledge and not the immature followers of Prabhupada, Shankara or any other.

Yes Srila Prabhupada said many things; wrote volumes of literature. Prabhupada is a great spiritual master. Still, he may not be perfect. What to speak of his followers. Only God is perfect. Shankaracharya is incarnation of Lord Shiva. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is incarnation of Krishna. They are perfect. Follow one of Them and choose your spiritual master, who is a representative, very carefully. In the Sri Upadeshamrita it states, “A sober person, who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals, is qualified to make disciples all over the world.” This should be the barometer when accepting a spiritual teacher. Doesn’t this make more sense, rather than criticizing each other and the great spiritual teachers also?

No spiritual master desires to lose disciples to another sect. They must uphold the dignity of their particular Sampradaya. However, they may try to convince others by logic, which includes the recitation of proofs (verses) from previous spiritual teachers. Hence, they teach their disciples to do the same. It is practice for the student to also uphold the dignity of their line. Nevertheless one sometimes offend others due to lack of maturity. In the interim, the student may not perfectly present the philosophy so arguments many ensue. Arguments may be presented by neophytes but it is all inconclusive. At the end of the day, has our devotion to God increased. Do we love our spiritual master and God even more, or do we hate our opponent?

For the Vaisnava’s or Shankarites please don’t forget the words of Shankara from the famous Bhaja Govinda prayers, “Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time of death the rules of grammer, which you are trying to cram and master, will not be able to rescue you at all.”

If you are interested please visit my website www.aumganesha.com (http://www.aumganesha.com/). There you will find information on the glorious Ganesha Purana.

Namaskar Deva!

Thanks for your input. Generally speaking nice advice.
Specifically speaking - no its not about criticizing. Its a technical problem. Problems need to be addressed as in spiritual life and in material life.
I agree life is short no time for arguments. Your post is in line with the spiritual advice of the Gurus, but what happened to some of the Gaudiya Gurus criticizing others? Some of them almost made it look like its them against rest of the Gurus of the world.



In the Sri Upadeshamrita it states, “A sober person, who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals, is qualified to make disciples all over the world.” This should be the barometer when accepting a spiritual teacher.

Prabhupad spoke all the time and called people rascals, fools, demoniac, pasandis, mayavadis etc.. It was a regular. :)

So we accept that all these are great masters and we should not waste time and keep on following one. Then someone comes and tells "oh but you are not following Iskcon and not chanting HK mantra. What? Advaita? So you are in mayavad! Demoniac!! you rascal? You are a fool and a pasandi!!! Did you know that as per Padma Puran Shankaracharya spread false knowledge? And Ramakrishna was a fool and Sai baba is a fraud and rapist and all these Hindus and gurus are in maya? If you pray to your demi-God/s you can't get liberated! Shiva is a demi God in mode of Tamo Guna and can give only material things and has no control over urges (mohini example that the HK give) and anger and is dependent on Krsna. You are a fool and a rascal no.1. You are the rascal fooled by another rascal."

Fine. We hear that and smile. And carry on our sadhna further. Prabhupad maharaj ki jai!! :)



No spiritual master desires to lose disciples to another sect. They must uphold the dignity of their particular Sampradaya.

Sects, sampradayas, religious groups care more for that. Not real spiritual masters. They don't care for any competition really. Otherwise it's just another political party. Congress versus BJP. Iskcon versus Gaudiya Muth..etc.

Thank you for the nice post. Most of what I agree with. Yes argumentations, as I said before, especially ill-argumentation (kutark) increases 'dvesh bhav' which should be avoided. Increasing sadhna, devotion, closeness to Ishta and Guru AND sadbhavna for ALL people is more important instead of criticizing all Hinduism, rest of the Gurus of the world.
Thank you for the Ganesh site. Its great you are promoting glories of Lord Ganesha.

Regards.

Yogkriya

giridhar
24 January 2011, 03:58 AM
Namaskar Deva!

Thanks for your input. Generally speaking nice advice.
Specifically speaking - no its not about criticizing. Its a technical problem. Problems need to be addressed as in spiritual life and in material life.
I agree life is short no time for arguments. Your post is in line with the spiritual advice of the Gurus, but what happened to some of the Gaudiya Gurus criticizing others? Some of them almost made it look like its them against rest of the Gurus of the world.


EXACTLY THAT !!

yogkriya has summed up what i tried in the thread

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=57013&postcount=115,
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=57018&postcount=117.

Sadhana is no easy path given the obstacles in this life & from the past (as if the former were insufficient !!).

I was deep into HK philosophy. Its easy to say :"dont argue. its bad for sadhana." true. But noone knows hw bad i felt when i realized many mistakes in HK philosophy. Forget even that. Let there not be any mistakes.

I too was parroting "mayavadis are rascals".. I realized my mistakes. Shri Shankara is not a pasandi !! I have no right to assume upper hand over others.

I realized all this cos i turned to serious sadhana. That made me face BRUTALLY the faults in me. By Grace of Shakti, i was able to bear all.

Its no use putting down others' paths & ways. "Brahmam Sat Jagat Mithya" is greatly misunderstood by many.

Hardly a Guru will be born as great as Shankara - One who had to toil to overthrow buddhism from Bhaarat.

Honestly, theres no attempt to 'gang' up against HK or anyone else. Personally, i have better work to do. But, at the same time, in this physical world, falsehood HAS TO BE UPROOTED. By falsehood is meant all negativities including arrogance & trying to assume upper hand.

In the end, im not a pasandi :)

Adhvagat
04 March 2011, 03:19 PM
Your post is in line with the spiritual advice of the Gurus, but what happened to some of the Gaudiya Gurus criticizing others? Some of them almost made it look like its them against rest of the Gurus of the world.

That is indeed a sad reality.

Kumar_Das
20 March 2011, 12:54 PM
None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Guru of all Adi Shankaracharya.



None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Gurus who guided each one of us exactly the way we needed into the Truth.

:rolleyes:

Adhvagat
20 March 2011, 01:30 PM
:rolleyes:

You can speak your mind.

I was clearly not happy with some people's attitude back in those posts.