Krishna's Real Nature

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

I am having trouble trying to understand one particular passage of the Gita, whereby Krishna reveals to Arjuna that He is the Lord of the Universe, both immanent and transcendant. I have taken this verse from an English translation, so perhaps this is the reason why my understanding is flawed? I have provided the Sanskrit as well below:

B.G. 9:4
mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

I pervade the entire universe in my unmanifested form,
All creatures find their existence in Me, but I am not limited by them.

B.G. 9:5

na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
paśya me yogam aiśvaram
bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

Behold my divine mystery! These creatures do not really dwell in Me,
and though I bring them forth and support them, I am not confined within them.

What mystery is Krishna speaking of? Why does Krishna say that all things do not really dwell in Him? Does this not contradict the preceding verse? I would appreciate any opinions on this.

Om namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

　
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté sunyata07

Several of us discussed this in 2009. Take a look and see if this satisfies you. If you wish to pursue it further, I think it is worthy of additional review.

HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1125


praṇām

[sunyata07]

Thanks for the link, Yajvan.

Namaste.

Om namah Shivaya

[devotee]

Namaste Sunyata,



B.G. 9:4
mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

The literal meaning of the above verse is :

By Me, in my unmanifested form, this whole world is (pervaded). All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

B.G. 9:5

na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
paśya me yogam aiśvaram
bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

And yet these beings are not in me. See my mystical prowess that even on being source of all beings and their sustainer, my Self is not in them.


What mystery is Krishna speaking of? Why does Krishna say that all things do not really dwell in Him? Does this not contradict the preceding verse?

Yes, Lord Krishna is certainly talking in paradoxical terms. These two verses can be understood correctly only when we understand the nature of Self and the manifested world. The Self of Krishna is Niraakaar Brahman. The JIvaas (beings) are created by Maya ... they have illusory existence only. They don't really exist as they appear to be.

In the first verse He says that the entire world is pervaded by Him alone i.e. He alone is the essence of all beings/this entire manifested world. However, the essence of this manifseted world is the Fourth state of Self i.e. Nirvishesha Brahman. That is the Self of Krishna, His True Nature. The whole creation (the 1st and 2nd state of Self i.e. Visva and Taijasa) are projected from the fourth but they are only illusory. Let's remember that two states are not simultaneously possible. The Self can be perceived either in Visva or in Turiya but not both. When Turiya shines then Visva, Taijasa and Prajna all disappear.

So :

a) The essence of all beings is the Fourth (the fourth state of Brahman). So, that is what Lord Krishna wants to say by the first verse.
b) However, the Fourth state can be always alone because it shines in its complete glory only when all the three states vanish i.e when all "prapancha" (activities) go silent. That is the end AUM ... the soundless Reality. The sound and the soundless state cannot co-exist. When the Soundless Reality shines then neither of the three states can exist & that is why the 2nd verse from Lord Krishna. If the True Self of Krishna (i.e. the Turiya) shines, all beings disappear & when the being is in existence, the Turiya cannot shine. That is why He says that no beings are "really" in Him (as His true nature is beyond Maya ... when the True nature of Krishna shines in someone, then Maya disappears) and His True Self is not in any being (though He alone is the underlying, invisible, unmanifested Reality).

Dear Sunyata, I have tried to explain as much I could have done. If it is still not clear, it is because there is nothing by which It can be compared ... there is nothing which we have ever seen or perceived like It ... no, no, ... It is something which we cannot even correctly imagine because It is beyond all mental concepts.

OM

[Obelisk]

Namaste Sunyata,

I haven't fully read the Bhagavad Gita, but I too think these verses could be a very good reference to the question of duality and non-duality. When Shri Krishna says "behold my divine mystery", he could be pointing out how although in actuality everything is One and part of Him - the Absolute Brahman, the illusion of duality in our existence makes us feel that we are separate from Him. Also, although all beings are all a part of Brahman, they are not the Parabrahman and therefore they are not synonymous either. The drops are inseparable parts of the ocean, but not the ocean itself.

That's how I understood it. I'd be grateful if anyone could correct me if I'm wrong; I'm still consider myself a novice in these advanced concepts. :)

[sunyata07]

Thank you for your efforts at explaining this to me, Devotee. I will try to ponder on these words while I reread chapter 9 of B.G. Your point about the different states of consciousness is something I have been thinking about recently after reading Yajvan's thread about one stop enlightenment.

Would I be wrong in suggesting that the True Nature of the Lord that Krishna speaks of is similar to the concept of Nirguna Brahman (attributeless reality)?

Thank you again for your help.

Om namah Shivaya

[kd gupta]

It will be useful to follow a simple verse and then equating it to a parallel complicated verse eg...12/7 verse is good to understand more about the above quoted verses 9.4 and 9.5
Ye chaiva saattvikaa bhaavaa raajasaastaamasaashcha ye;
Matta eveti taanviddhi na twaham teshu te mayi.
Whatever being (and objects) that are pure, active and inert, know that they proceed
from Me. They are in Me, yet I am not in them.
It is therefore said in gita.....prapadyante....surrender .

[charlebs]

I think krishna means that he is our emotion, like shiva is our will. and brahma is our knowledge. they may incarnate from time to time, but their supreme forms always inspire and -control- us in a sense.

[pineblossom]

For me....

We are witnessing here the mystery of the unstruck sound - that in hearing we hear not and that in seeing we see not. Yet Krishna is within all and pervades all - particularly that which is beyond our senses.

My translation says;

In Me are all existences contained;
Not I in them.

We cannot hold the concept of God captive to our limited vision and finite existence. Quite simple, Krishna explains that he is in everything even when he is Unmanifest.

[Kumar_Das]

B.G. 9:4
mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

I pervade the entire universe in my unmanifested form,

God has His presence over all things. None can escape from God.


All creatures find their existence in Me,Nothing can exist separate from God. They all exist by the will of God. God is the Creator of all. By Him that which is non-existent proceeds into existence. This is not within the power of individual entities themselves, but God alone.


but I am not limited by them.

The created is bound by the Creator. Never the other way around. Some might get the impression that God is "stuck" with us. We come back and forth in states of existence. And He appears doomed to act upon us always somehow. But no, He is fully Sovereign. His Will is Independent. And He has Absolute Control. Creation is not restriction which God is bound to. What you must know is that it is His exercise of His Supremacy.


B.G. 9:5

na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
paśya me yogam aiśvaram
bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

Behold my divine mystery! This truth is hard for the created to fully understand.


These creatures do not really dwell in Me,

The two of us do not exist on the same level in any way. Least of all being inclusive within the nature/state of existence of God.

The two are mutually separate and different types of existences.



and though I bring them forth and support them,
God mentions His relation. His function. His attributes. He creates and He preserves/supports their existence.


I am not confined within them.

Just so you didnt understand what He said. He repeats Himself to make it clear. He is in no way, His existence, included within our Being, our states of existence, our Nature.

That is why, right before that verse ^ He mentions His attributes. He is the Creator and the Supporter. God can only be that because He is in a certain way. That is you derive your existence from His, never in any way the other way around. He acts upon you as He pleases, and if you and He were the same, nothing would make sense. That is an impossibility. If His nature was included within yours, He would be creating parts of Himself while creating you. His nature is permanent, His nature if full. There is nothing about Himself that He needs to complete.

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

In order to understand the Yoga Aishvara of Paramathma, lets make a humble attempt....

Sri Keshava says Bhagavad Gita 9.4

maya tatam idam sarvam
jagad avyakta-murtina

the most important term here is "Avyaktha murtina"...lets understand in detail....

what - idam sarvam jagat...this entire Universe
by whom - mayaa tatam...is prevaded by Me
how - avyaktha murtina....lets understand the term avyaktha...
.the term vyaktha indicates identification of individuality...individuality can be considered only when a boundary exists..everything within the boundary, then can be considered as vyaktha or an individual entity....
avyaktha..means that which cannot be distinctly or individually recognised
- how? this is because there is no boundary...
- why? because Parabramha is infinite and anything that is infinite
cannot be defined in a boundary and hence there is no individuality or vyaktha...

now, Paramathma also uses yet another term murtina...murti very roughly indicates
model...as Parabramha is infinite...and as infinity is
boundless, Parabramha, is modelled as infinite boundlessness, or avyaktha murti

to summarize...this entire universe is prevaded by Me who is modelled as the boundless infinity

mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na caham tesv avasthitah

mat sthani...sthana is location or place....mat sthani means accommodated or placed in Me
sarva bhuthani....every bhutha....
aham na avastithaha teshu...lets understand the term avasthithaha after the next section....

everything is accomadated in Me, but I am not "avastithaha" in them....

now comes the most interesting part...how are we supposed to understand this...
Sri Hrishikesha Himself gives us an example to help us understand this beautiful point in Bhagavad Gita 9.6

yathakasa-sthito nityam
vayuh sarvatra-go mahan
tatha sarvani bhutani
mat-sthanity upadharaya

the most important term here is "Aakasha"...

upadharaya...understand

yatha aakasha...Just like in the Aakasha or Sky,
stitho nityam...is accommodated eternally...nityam indicates this is eternal...
[this answers many other questions related to the other thread regarding Jeevas, but lets not go there now]
mahan vaayuh sarvatra-gah ....that mighty wind which blows everywhere....

tatha sarva bhuthani man sthany....similarly every bhutha is accommodated in me...

lets understand in detail...Sri Vaasudeva, in this example compares

Aakasha to Him
Vaayu to bhutani

points to note:
Aakaasha or sky or space is infinite from our perspective...Aakasha is also without boundary...
standing on top of a high mountain, when we look at the sky, we can infact see the horizon of the earth, which is the boundary of earth, which makes earth a vyaktha or an individual
entity, but we cannot comprehend a boundary on the vast infinite sky..we cannot recognize individuality in sky...sky for us is modelled as avyaktha....we cannot see a boundary....
thus Paramathma uses Aakasha or sky or space as an analogy to Him...

vaayu or air or atmosphere is located in sky or space...Aakasha is prevading everywhere and vaayu is accomadated in Aakasha or sky or space....without space, air or atmosphere cannot exist...similarly in the infinity called Parabramha, everything is accommodated,
just like atmosphere is accommodated in the sky or space

coming back to the term "avastithaha"
"air" needs a space to be accommodated and thus is accommodated in the space
....where as the space itself does not need the air, or anything, to be accommodated...
similarly, all the beings need the all prevading Parabramha to be accommodated...where as Parabramha
is not in need of a place for accommodation in the bhuta ....

now comes the most interesting part...which answers your question....
when we consider the atmosphere, after the exosphere, which is the final layer of atmoshpere
or
the point after which where air does not exist, does the sky or space or Aakasha also cease to exist?....is the entire space or Aakasha filled with air?

the answer is No..."atmosphere does not exist in space"....and this, my dear friend is exactly what Sri Janardhana is saying in Bhagavad Gita 9.5...

na ca mat-sthani bhutani
pasya me yogam aishvaram

na cha...ALSO not
mat sthani bhutani....accommodated in Me....

just like wind is accommodated within the space and also is not accommodated in space
similarly
sarva bhutani are in Paramathma and are not in Paramathma...

lets understand the above mentioned statement...
so, what is the exosphere we are talking about here....
Hiranyagharbha or Bramhaanda or this prakrthi is the region where bhuthas exists

just like air exists till exosphere...beyond prakruthi..its the Avyaktha Akshara Parabramha without bhutani just like space or sky is without air.....

Just as wind is located in sky[within exosphere] and wind does not exist in sky[beyond atmosphere]

similarly bhutani exist in Parabramha[within prakruthi] and bhutani do not exist in Parabramha[beyond prakruthi]

[sunyata07]

Thank you, Sanathana Dharma for that truly brilliant post! :) Well-written and very clear. I'm grateful for all the answers given to me for my understanding of this seemingly paradoxical gem Krishna has revealed to Arjuna.

Namaste.

Om namah Shivaya

[proudhindu]

Pranaam Sanatana Dharma ,

Thanks for the detailed explanation.Kindly post more frequently.

[SanathanaDharma]

Pranaam sunyata07 and proudhindu,

its He who has created everything..its He who has given the knowledge, it He who is knowledge and its His words which are like nectar...this humble mind only tries to understand the knowledge again only because He makes it understand...
its a pleasure to share such knowledge with people like you....

[kallol]

Namaste,

I am having trouble trying to understand one particular passage of the Gita, whereby Krishna reveals to Arjuna that He is the Lord of the Universe, both immanent and transcendant. I have taken this verse from an English translation, so perhaps this is the reason why my understanding is flawed? I have provided the Sanskrit as well below:

B.G. 9:4
mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

I pervade the entire universe in my unmanifested form,
All creatures find their existence in Me, but I am not limited by them.

B.G. 9:5

na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
paśya me yogam aiśvaram
bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

Behold my divine mystery! These creatures do not really dwell in Me,
and though I bring them forth and support them, I am not confined within them.

What mystery is Krishna speaking of? Why does Krishna say that all things do not really dwell in Him? Does this not contradict the preceding verse? I would appreciate any opinions on this.

Om namah Shivaya

All have given excellent explainations and there is a seperate link on this subject. As this is another thread, so I will take liberty to state my understanding.

Taking analogy from light and object -

1. All objects are illuminated or are known only when they are in light. However light is not limited by the objects. Light (consciousness) pervades all.

2. Now what are objects ? It is only a namarupa (name and form) of the the permanent Brahman state. Seperately these objects do not have existence. These forms and names are not permanent. These are nothing but brahman. Like a sand castle on beach. Castle is impermanent but sand is. Castle is another form and name of the sand. Similarly the percievable creation is only name and form of brahman. These are not seperate entities.

So the names and forms do not really exist - it is only brahman that exists.

However because of consciousness, the creations of names and forms happen. Consciousness only supports them. Consciousness is not limited by them.

This theory is difficult to grasp - and is a mystery to the common men.

Love and best wishes