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Tirisilex
01 February 2011, 07:07 PM
Does Dvaita have a mental Model like Advaita? Can someone point me in the right direction about Dvaita?

grames
02 February 2011, 12:05 AM
What do you mean by "Mental model"???

kd gupta
02 February 2011, 08:53 AM
ino viśvasya bhuvanasya ghopāḥ sa mā dhīraḥ pākamatrā viveśa || 21/164/1mndlm
There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath entered into me the simple.
tasyedāhuḥ pippalaṃ svādvaghre tan non naśad yaḥpitaraṃ na veda || 22/164/1mndlm
Upon its top they say the fig is luscious: none gaineth it who knoweth not the Father.

suparṇaṃ viprāḥ kavayo vacobhirekaṃ santaṃ bahudhākalpayanti |5/114/10mndlm

Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures…..translation by mr Griffith

If somebody tries to learn , this advaita is the concept of jeeva being the part of parmatma , but not the parmatma .

And this is the mental model concept for dvaita .

Tirisilex
03 February 2011, 11:26 AM
When I say Mental Model I mean.. Like how Advaita separates the mind in different categories.. I.E. Manah, Chitta, Buddhi..

grames
07 February 2011, 07:43 AM
That is not Just "Advaita". It is the "Veda" which gives you all the idea of creation and the constitution of creations. The "Dvaita" model attribute the "power" and "cause" of such elements ( Bhutas) to Iswara, the Bagavan. He is OM, He is the one Who allow allow the Jiva to cognize, remember, recollect, contemplate as well as opposite of all these. Jiva do not have any control over any of these is the model that Vaishanva schools follows.

kd gupta
07 February 2011, 10:04 AM
Oh that is very nice gramesji .
Vinashyatswavinashyantam yah pashyati sa pashyati. 28/13
Here as you said ...He is OM, He is the one Who allow the Jiva to cognize, remember, recollect, contemplate...leads to Advaita , I feel .
But ...in my view...as well as opposite of all these...as you said is Dvaita model .
Thanks

grames
08 February 2011, 12:22 AM
Thats interesting Guptaji. Vaishnavas believe that, He is the Agent for cognizing, recollecting and contemplating etc. for a jiva. In simple terms, Jiva do not have any power on its own to do any sort of actions except the Kartatva (will) and so always "dependent" on Ishwara". How does it leads to "Advaita"?? I am very curious...

kd gupta
08 February 2011, 08:28 AM
Very simple...
यस्मिन्त्यासर्वानी भुतान्यात्मैवाभुद्विजन्तः , तत्र कह मोहः कह शोक एकत्वमनुपश्यतः .७/४० यजुर्वेद


Jyotishaamapi tajjyotistamasah paramuchyate;
Jnaanam jneyam jnaanagamyam hridi sarvasya vishthitam.

That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable
and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.18/13 gita

devotee
08 February 2011, 10:43 AM
Oh that is very nice gramesji .
Vinashyatswavinashyantam yah pashyati sa pashyati. 28/13
Here as you said ...He is OM, He is the one Who allow the Jiva to cognize, remember, recollect, contemplate...leads to Advaita , I feel .
But ...in my view...as well as opposite of all these...as you said is Dvaita model .
Thanks

Namaste Gupta ji,

After reading your post I am inclined to remind you of these verses from Bhagwad Gita and Kathopanishad :

Bhagwad Gita

Yadaksharam vedvido vadanti
Vishanti yadyatayo vItraagaah |
Yadichchhanto brahmacharyam charanti
Tatte padam sangraheNa pvakshaye || BG 8.11||

==> That akshar (syllable, imperishable) which the knowers of Vedas talk about, into whom the Sannyaasis enter into; for which (sages) observe Brahmacharayam ... I shall tell you of that highest state in brief.

Omityekaksharam Brahman vyaavharanmaamnusmaran |
Yah prayaati tyajandehi sa yaati parmaam gatim || 8.13 ||

He who reciting OM, the one syllable which is Brahman and remembering me leaves the body attains the Ultimate state.

Kathopanishad

Sarve Veda yat padammananti
Tapaansi sarvaaNi cha yad vadanti |
Yadichchhanto brahmacharyam charanti
Tatte padam sangraheNa bravImyotyetat || Chapter 1.15 ||

That highest state which is talked about by all the Vedas, which all the austerities talk about (for leading to), for which (sages) observe Brahmacharyam ... I shall tell you of that state in brief ... that is OM (or AUM) ... that is all.

****************

See the similarity in what is told by Lord Krishna in Bhagwad Gita and what the Yama says to Nachiketa in Kathopanishad. How does what Grames says lead only to Advaita & not Dvaita ?

OM

kd gupta
08 February 2011, 11:00 AM
Namaste Devoteeji
Yes , the fourth goal and is the moksha , the ultimate for Advaitins .

grames
09 February 2011, 02:02 AM
Very interesting.... but still wondering how does it lead to "Advaita"?

Here is what Shri Krshna says in BG..


sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham BG 15.15


I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

It will be very interesting to note down Shri Shankara bashya on this particular verse along with Anandagiri's tika or Madhusudhana's "gUDhArthadIpika".

Ofcourse, Advaitins have their own "interpretations" of these Bashyas too.

kd gupta
09 February 2011, 09:01 AM
Dear grames
You are missing the very point . Being vaishnav I suggest you to go to the conversation with krsn when Uddhav returns from Vrindavan with loosen heart . Krsn asks , uddhav, the gyani advaita, we both will now enjoy the moksha at heaven . Uddhav says , no krsn Now I believe in bhakti , the dvaita and will prefer to live in vrindavan .
I shall also like to say that we see the advaita as motherhood in woman , but tell me , is it possible without being dvaita as a wife ?

grames
10 February 2011, 07:09 AM
A big OOPS....

Not sure where such conversation happens and would you like to provide me any references?

Advaita as "Advaitin" believe is not the same "Advaita" in the Abedha of Bedhabedha. I hope and wish you are very clear about this distinction.

Hare Krshna!


Dear grames
You are missing the very point . Being vaishnav I suggest you to go to the conversation with krsn when Uddhav returns from Vrindavan with loosen heart . Krsn asks , uddhav, the gyani advaita, we both will now enjoy the moksha at heaven . Uddhav says , no krsn Now I believe in bhakti , the dvaita and will prefer to live in vrindavan .
I shall also like to say that we see the advaita as motherhood in woman , but tell me , is it possible without being dvaita as a wife ?

kd gupta
10 February 2011, 09:16 AM
In fact I am not very much inclined to this type of conflict . Uddhav,s thought and not the conversation ,is such.....
The Vraja ladies in this being blessed by the embrace of Uttamas'loka in the rāsa dance was, o pity, not reserved for the goddess on His chest who is so intimately related, this was not the favor for the women of heaven with their scent and luster of a lotus flower, and much less was it granted to others of worldly beauty . Oh, let me be devoted to the dust of the lotusfeet of the gopīs in Vrindāvana, let me be any of the bushes, creepers or herbs [there in relation] to them who, in worship of the feet of Mukunda, for whom one searches with the help of the Vedas, gave up the family members so difficult to leave behind and the path of civil correctitude...61,62/47/10th scand

kd gupta
10 February 2011, 12:18 PM
This is my view to controll the wandering soul with the help of intelligence for steadying mind .
Sanstabhya +atmanam +atmana..3/43 gita...steadying mind with intelligence to controll the soul .

Now this is soul which runs for food , bravery ,gyan. ..like dvaita advaita shaiva vaishnav etc etc. If one makes the mind , not to eat , soul will not be able to live in the body .
The brahmana Jada Bharata said: My dear King, although you are not at all experienced, you are trying to speak like a very experienced man. Consequently you cannot be considered an experienced person. An experienced person does not speak the way you are speaking about the relationship between a master and a servant or about material pains and pleasures. These are simply external activities. Any advanced, experienced man, considering the Absolute Truth, does not talk in this way.My dear King, talks of the relationship between the master and the servant, the king and the subject and so forth are simply talks about material activities. People interested in material activities, which are expounded in the Vedas, are intent on performing material sacrifices and placing faith in their material activities. For such people, spiritual advancement is definitely not manifest.A dream becomes automatically known to a person as false and immaterial, and similarly one eventually realizes that material happiness in this life or the next, on this planet or a higher planet, is insignificant. When one realizes this, the Vedas, although an excellent source, are insufficient to bring about direct knowledge of the truth.As long as the mind of the living entity is contaminated by the three modes of material nature (goodness, passion and ignorance), his mind is exactly like an independent, uncontrolled elephant. It simply expands its jurisdiction of pious and impious activities by using the senses. The result is that the living entity remains in the material world to enjoy and suffer pleasures and pains due to material activity.Because the mind is absorbed in desires for pious and impious activities, it is naturally subjected to the transformations of lust and anger. In this way, it becomes attracted to material sense enjoyment. In other words, the mind is conducted by the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance. There are eleven senses and five material elements, and out of these sixteen items, the mind is the chief. Therefore the mind brings about birth in different types of bodies among demigods, human beings, animals and birds. When the mind is situated in a higher or lower position, it accepts a higher or lower material body.The materialistic mind covering the living entity's soul carries it to different species of life. This is called continued material existence. Due to the mind, the living entity suffers or enjoys material distress and happiness. Being thus illusioned, the mind further creates pious and impious activities and their karma, and thus the soul becomes conditioned.The mind makes the living entity within this material world wander through different species of life, and thus the living entity experiences mundane affairs in different forms as a human being, demigod, fat person, skinny person and so forth. Learned scholars say that bodily appearance, bondage and liberation are caused by the mind. When the living entity's mind becomes absorbed in the sense gratification of the material world, it brings about his conditioned life and suffering within the material situation. However, when the mind becomes unattached to material enjoyment, it becomes the cause of liberation. When the flame in a lamp burns the wick improperly, the lamp is blackened, but when the lamp is filled with ghee and is burning properly, there is bright illumination. Similarly, when the mind is absorbed in material sense gratification, it causes suffering, and when detached from material sense gratification, it brings about the original brightness of brahman.There are five working senses and five knowledge-acquiring senses. There is also the false ego. In this way, there are eleven items for the mind's functions. O hero, the objects of the senses [such as sound and touch], the organic activities [such as evacuation] and the different types of bodies, society, friendship and personality are considered by learned scholars the fields of activity for the functions of the mind.Sound, touch, form, taste and smell are the objects of the five knowledge-acquiring senses. Speech, touch, movement, evacuation and sexual intercourse are the objects of the working senses. Besides this, there is another conception by which one thinks, "This is my body, this is my society, this is my family, this is my nation," and so forth. This eleventh function, that of the mind, is called the false ego. According to some philosophers, this is the twelfth function, and its field of activity is the body.The physical elements, nature, the original cause, culture, destiny and the time element are all material causes. Agitated by these material causes, the eleven functions transform into hundreds of functions and then into thousands and then into millions. But all these transformations do not take place automatically by mutual combination. Rather, they are under the direction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The individual soul has many ideas and activities created in the mind by the external energy. They have been existing from time immemorial. Sometimes they are manifest in the wakening state and in the dream state, but during deep sleep [unconsciousness] or trance, they disappear. A person who is liberated in this life [jivan-mukta] can see all these things vividly. There are two kinds of ksetrajna--the living entity, as explained above, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is explained as follows. He is the all-pervading cause of creation. He is full in Himself and is not dependent on others. He is perceived by hearing and direct perception. He is self-effulgent and does not experience birth, death, old age or disease. He is the controller of all the demigods, beginning with Lord Brahma. He is called Narayana, and He is the shelter of living entities after the annihilation of this material world. He is full of all opulences, and He is the resting place of everything material. He is therefore known as Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By His own potency, He is present within the hearts of all living entities, just as the air or vital force is within the bodies of all beings, moving and nonmoving. In this way He controls the body. In His partial feature, the Supreme Personality of Godhead enters all bodies and controls them. My dear King Rahugana, as long as the conditioned soul accepts the material body and is not freed from the contamination of material enjoyment, and as long as he does not conquer his six enemies and come to the platform of self-realization by awakening his spiritual knowledge, he has to wander among different places and different species of life in this material world. The soul's designation, the mind, is the cause of all tribulations in the material world. As long as this fact is unknown to the conditioned living entity, he has to accept the miserable condition of the material body and wander within this universe in different positions. Because the mind is affected by disease, lamentation, illusion, attachment, greed and enmity, it creates bondage and a false sense of intimacy within this material world.This uncontrolled mind is the greatest enemy of the living entity. If one neglects it or gives it a chance, it will grow more and more powerful and will become victorious. Although it is not factual, it is very strong. It covers the constitutional position of the soul. O King, please try to conquer this mind by the weapon of service to the lotus feet of the spiritual master and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Do this with great care….11/scand 5 sribhagvatam .

grames
14 February 2011, 01:14 AM
Dear Guptaji,

What you have posted in one of the sublime message that every spiritual aspirant take their life time to understand and digest. Just this excerpt from the whole history of Bharata and RshabaDeva's teaching will not do any justice as in concluding or even making any opinions. If i understand what you are trying to say, you are meaning that both Advaita and Dvaita are two faces of the same coin? If this is your understanding, it has lot of scope to create confusion in the mind of "others" though they shouldn't matter to you. But, for a reader of your message i believe you should make it very clear that, it is NOT ADVAITA or DVAITA but both which is a daunting task. :). For few, the Advaita in Bedhabedha makes the dominant principle and for some the Dvaita in Bedhabedha makes the dominant principle. In both cases, they are not kevala Advaita or kevala dvaita and i hope this is your stand point. But clarify if this is not the case.

Thanks