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Aum namah Śivāya
08 February 2011, 06:00 PM
This is a bit of an awkward subject for me, but one that I feel I need to ask.

I'm in the process of converting to Hinduism. I've highly respected it and studied its beliefs since I was about 13 years old (I am 22 now), but never knew that such an option was open to me.

I am currently trying to learn about Hindu morality. I'm especially interested in such right now in the area of sexuality, since I am engaged, and planning on getting married in a bit over a year. I've been reading Saivite Virtue (from Himalayan Academy (www.himalayanacademy.com)), and my fiance is reading it with me as well so that we can work on reforming our moral stance in our own relationship. We've become a bit more careless with this over the last several months, and I feel it has strained our relationship in some ways, indirectly.

Now I'm coming at this from an entire new angle, but for that reason a lot of things are fuzzy to us. That book suggests that sexual intercourse is wrong before marriage, but as we all know, there is a large array of possibilities between no physical intimacy at all, and sexual intercourse. That is the arena we are now in, and trying to figure out where to draw the line. I think having the physical closeness has really helped us in a lot of ways to trust each other more, but also I recognize that it is dangerous to go too far.

While I realize that some of this is a subjective matter, I would appreciate any advice that others would have for us. We do agree with the premises of that book, but wish that it would be a bit more specific.

Again I'm sorry for the awkward thread. I hate being explicit, so hopefully I was clear enough without being too graphic.

Eastern Mind
08 February 2011, 07:05 PM
Vannakkam Aum: Welcome to these forums.

I think you and your future wife alone have to decide. Certainly the tradition was and perhaps is to remain virgins until marriage. But in this day and age, quite frankly, in America it would be rare indeed. I cannot speak for the youth of India. I have heard via my single contact with a youth there that sexuality is far more pervasive that the traditionalist parent would have you believe. They keep it hidden just like we in America did 40 years ago.

You also have to remember that 'Saivite Virtue' was written from a very traditional viewpoint and is more applicable to non-dating single people. Certainly if there was to be intimacy, within an already committed relationship (I'm assuming you and your fiance see it that way) consequences would be less than just open promiscuity for no real reason other than getting drunk or something like that. But still the book (I am quite familiar with it. A couple of my kids took it as a course.) has a lot of value, even for us old married folk about just for methods of controlling all desires.

Another possibility is to hurry the marriage up. The recent thread on here about simple marriages may encourage you somewhat in this regard.

Regardless, I wish you and your future spouse well. Whatever you choose, its important not to beat yourselves up over it. Hindus are very forgiving people, and need to practice it towards themselves sometimes.

BTW, nice name.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
08 February 2011, 07:28 PM
What a wonderful honest post fully of such wonderful sentiment. That you are both so concerned about this is just awesome.

Having such a deep concern for these things, only blesses you both more.<3

Believer
08 February 2011, 08:49 PM
Many a times, we make up our minds as to what we want to do, and then look for reference points for validation of our thoughts/decisions.

1. Scriptures were written long time back for single people. You can be flexible with them in this day and age.
2. Whatever is happening around us must be the right thing to do.
3. Some other Indians are behaving in one way, that licenses us to do the same.
4. Being in a committed relationship, somehow changes what is right and what is not.

It is indeed commendable that the OP came here for some answers. But I suspect he already knows all the right answers. So, the question really is what do we think of the situation and what will we feel comfortable with. You could either follow the scriptures and be like 24 carat gold or you could dilute it to whatever purity you desire. It is all up to you. I understand that 'partial intimacy' is the least that young people would need to keep their sanity and be happy. If that is the extent of control that one can exert without going crazy, by all means live that lifestyle. But, please be aware that it is only a societal sanction and not a scriptural sanction. We should not confuse the two, or degrade the scriptures in any way, just because the social norms have changed/degraded.

In the final analysis, as EM has suggested, don't beat yourselves over this issue. We are not perfect and we all take liberty with different aspects of scriptures. If some intimacy is needed to keep the relationship intact and to keep your sanity, by all means indulge yourselves.

My best wishes to both of you.

sanjaya
08 February 2011, 10:12 PM
I'm not sure how much of this comes from Hinduism and how much from traditional Indian culture. But personally I think that "don't do anything until marriage" seems simple and straightforward enough. Having said that, I don't think that it's worth it to start dwelling on issues like "sexual purity." Seems to me that if people raise their kids right and make them spiritually-minded, these things will just work themselves out.

I would be interested to know if this topic is discussed at all in Hindu Scripture. My guess is that any guidelines given would be more for the sake of utility than absolute morality, but I honestly don't know.

Aum namah Śivāya
09 February 2011, 10:42 AM
Vannakkam Aum: Welcome to these forums.

I think you and your future wife alone have to decide. Certainly the tradition was and perhaps is to remain virgins until marriage. But in this day and age, quite frankly, in America it would be rare indeed. I cannot speak for the youth of India. I have heard via my single contact with a youth there that sexuality is far more pervasive that the traditionalist parent would have you believe. They keep it hidden just like we in America did 40 years ago.

You also have to remember that 'Saivite Virtue' was written from a very traditional viewpoint and is more applicable to non-dating single people. Certainly if there was to be intimacy, within an already committed relationship (I'm assuming you and your fiance see it that way) consequences would be less than just open promiscuity for no real reason other than getting drunk or something like that. But still the book (I am quite familiar with it. A couple of my kids took it as a course.) has a lot of value, even for us old married folk about just for methods of controlling all desires.

Another possibility is to hurry the marriage up. The recent thread on here about simple marriages may encourage you somewhat in this regard.

Regardless, I wish you and your future spouse well. Whatever you choose, its important not to beat yourselves up over it. Hindus are very forgiving people, and need to practice it towards themselves sometimes.

BTW, nice name.

Aum Namasivaya

Thank you for your reply. I don't think either of us currently have a problem with remaining virgins until married. There still is a lot of wiggle room that we need to try to work out, though.

I do like the book, and if the reasons it gives for its conclusions are correct, then they make sense as well. I think a middle path is needed with such matters.

Getting married sooner is something we thought of, but that opens a whole new can of worms that I'll probably be starting a thread on soon. I will definitely cheeck that thread out though; thanks. :)


Many a times, we make up our minds as to what we want to do, and then look for reference points for validation of our thoughts/decisions.

1. Scriptures were written long time back for single people. You can be flexible with them in this day and age.
2. Whatever is happening around us must be the right thing to do.
3. Some other Indians are behaving in one way, that licenses us to do the same.
4. Being in a committed relationship, somehow changes what is right and what is not.

It is indeed commendable that the OP came here for some answers. But I suspect he already knows all the right answers. So, the question really is what do we think of the situation and what will we feel comfortable with. You could either follow the scriptures and be like 24 carat gold or you could dilute it to whatever purity you desire. It is all up to you. I understand that 'partial intimacy' is the least that young people would need to keep their sanity and be happy. If that is the extent of control that one can exert without going crazy, by all means live that lifestyle. But, please be aware that it is only a societal sanction and not a scriptural sanction. We should not confuse the two, or degrade the scriptures in any way, just because the social norms have changed/degraded.

In the final analysis, as EM has suggested, don't beat yourselves over this issue. We are not perfect and we all take liberty with different aspects of scriptures. If some intimacy is needed to keep the relationship intact and to keep your sanity, by all means indulge yourselves.

My best wishes to both of you.

Thank you for your advice. I think you are judging me too harshly, though, if I understood your post. I don't have preconceived ideas of what I want to hear from this thread, and I don't think that standards can change just because one is in a relationship.

Like I said, I'm just in the process of converting, so please be patient with me. I don't know what the scriptures say on this matter. I am just beginning to study them in depth. My sole reference at this point is the book I referenced in my OP.

Aum namah Śivāya

Adhvagat
09 February 2011, 12:32 PM
Aum namah Śivāya, I guess Believer gave a very sensible suggestion.

I think Believer sometimes sound harsher than he actually means (in my opinion, don't take that as an offense Believer).

I guess he only stated points for everybody, when we are discussing something publicly is always nice to engage in discussions that can be of interest to other people as well.

What I can read into his words is: Do what you feel comfortable with.

Any attitude that will cause mental negation and repression is not the right thing to do. Do what is within, not what comes from without as a repressive order.

When I was younger I didn't understand that, mostly because of natural anarthas from within, now with natural inclination to spirituality this approach is clearer.

Om Tat Sat

Eastern Mind
09 February 2011, 12:36 PM
Like I said, I'm just in the process of converting, so please be patient with me.

Aum namah Śivāya

Vannakkam: Best wishes with that too. Welcome to the fold, and there is substantial information here on it as well. You sound like you're very clear on a lot of stuff.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
09 February 2011, 03:49 PM
I think you are judging me too harshly, though, if I understood your post.

My apologies if my choice of words and my writing style came out as too harsh for you. Did not mean to put you down or hurt you in any way.

As Pietro has correctly read into my comments,

1. Understand the difference between societal sanctions and scriptural sanctions.
2. Apply however much of the scriptural sanctions is physically possible for you. Pre-marital partial or total abstinence is not for everybody.

Aum namah Śivāya
09 February 2011, 04:01 PM
My apologies if my choice of words and my writing style came out as too harsh for you. Did not mean to put you down or hurt you in any way.

As Pietro has correctly read into my comments,

1. Understand the difference between societal sanctions and scriptural sanctions.
2. Apply however much of the scriptural sanctions is physically possible for you. Pre-marital partial or total abstinence is not for everybody.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry that I misinterpreted your post.

Can you clarify what the scriptures say on this matter? I am unaware of it.

Aum namah Śivāya
09 February 2011, 04:03 PM
Another possibility is to hurry the marriage up. The recent thread on here about simple marriages may encourage you somewhat in this regard.

Could you link me to this thread? I could not find it with a search. I'm still trying to learn my way around the forums.

Aum namah Śivāya

Eastern Mind
10 February 2011, 12:12 PM
Could you link me to this thread? I could not find it with a search. I'm still trying to learn my way around the forums.

Aum namah Śivāya

Vannakkam: Not sure if it'll help, but... http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6946&highlight=weddings

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
11 February 2011, 12:47 AM
Can you clarify what the scriptures say on this matter? I am unaware of it.

The essence of Hinduism is purity in thought, word and deed. But let us consider our good old American justice system. You can have a trial by a judge or by a jury. The judge is going to look at the law and very coldly, apply it to see if you are guilty or not. However the jury, comprising of average citizens are going to think of their own behavior/shortcomings under similar circumstances, and realizing that they are not perfect, would cut you some slack. So, the jury will be a bit lenient with their decision. The scriptural sanctions are like trial by judge and the societal sanctions are like trial by jury.

I am quite far from that time in my life, but I do remember something about the raging hormones. It is best to control the senses, not just at your age, but throughout your life. But if that is not possible, or a relationship is at stake, or too much control causes tension/confusion/friction, then by all means do what helps you keep your sanity, and the relationship alive. We will look the other way and cut you some slack. ;)

Aum namah Śivāya
11 February 2011, 01:11 AM
The essence of Hinduism is purity in thought, word and deed. But let us consider our good old American justice system. You can have a trial by a judge or by a jury. The judge is going to look at the law and very coldly, apply it to see if you are guilty or not. However the jury, comprising of average citizens are going to think of their own behavior/shortcomings under similar circumstances, and realizing that they are not perfect, would cut you some slack. So, the jury will be a bit lenient with their decision. The scriptural sanctions are like trial by judge and the societal sanctions are like trial by jury.

I am quite far from that time in my life, but I do remember something about the raging hormones. It is best to control the senses, not just at your age, but throughout your life. But if that is not possible, or a relationship is at stake, or too much control causes tension/confusion/friction, then by all means do what helps you keep your sanity, and the relationship alive. We will look the other way and cut you some slack. ;)


Thanks for your explanation. I will have to become more familiar with the scriptures. My fiance and I were discussing it tonight, and have decided to be more pure.

Since I have started meditating more regularly, I have realized that I've really had no desires, so I don't think that it will be overly difficult.