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Sahasranama
10 February 2011, 07:31 AM
http://newsblaze.com/story/20101212180038zzzz.nb/topstory.html


Christian Evangelist Father Johnson Reveals That India Embraces Christianity


By Bandyopadhyay Arindam

sanjaya
10 February 2011, 10:33 AM
Wow, this evangelist's honesty is almost chilling. He admits, among other things, that they stage miracles. This article really highlights what is so wrong with Christianity. I hope the government has the good sense to abandon secularism and just ban Christian missionaries outright.

PARAM
10 February 2011, 10:51 AM
Wow, this evangelist's honesty is almost chilling. He admits, among other things, that they stage miracles. This article really highlights what is so wrong with Christianity. I hope the government has the good sense to abandon secularism and just ban Christian missionaries outright.
Government will never ban it, Sonia Gandhi is also a hidden Christian, there are many in Congress and their allied UPA partners.
Just they call to their Muslim counterparts, which could be better for them.

Now Eastern Mind etc should declare that USA Embraces Hinduism, and my heartily wishes for our success

Warrior
10 February 2011, 11:25 AM
Hi all!
I am sure that they do not stage healing miracles. For example the healing of St. Pio of Pietrelcina is documented medically. Please read the following text.

<FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN lang=EN-CA style="text-shadow: none; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">More astounding still may be the thoroughly-documented cure of a construction worker named Giovanni Savino, who was severely injured on February 15, 1949, in a dynamite mishap. When Dr. Guglielmo San- guinetti, a physican, and Padre Raffaele, another Capuchin, and Father Dominic Meyer rushed to the injured man's side, “all three men noted that among Savino's numerous injuries, his right eye was gone entirely. They agreed that 'the socket was empty',” reports biographer Bernard Ruffin. Other doctors confirmed that the eye was completely annihilated and the other one badly damaged.

Believer
10 February 2011, 12:28 PM
I hope the government has the good sense to abandon secularism and just ban Christian missionaries outright.

Which government do you speak of Sire? :)
Sonia would like to convert India into a Catholic nation. The number of missionaries in India has gone up many folds since the fall of the BJP govt., who kept them in check for the few years that they were at the helm. More and more crypto Xitians are being brought into the govt. every day. The attack on Hinduism is on under the guise of secularism. Still Indian Hindus find a reason to not support BJP - the lesser of the two evils - for one reason or another. They will end up getting what they deserve, not what we would like to see.

Eastern Mind
10 February 2011, 12:49 PM
Vannakkam: It is really disheartening to hear such stories. It shows such a lack of understanding by the Catholics. On one hand, they compliment Hindus for being so nice, and then they use this to attack us from the inside. And then the Hindus are so stupid nice that they allow it. We need to fight fire with fire somehow. One good thing is that Hinduism is growing in the west.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
10 February 2011, 10:04 PM
Hi all!
I am sure that they do not stage healing miracles. For example the healing of St. Pio of Pietrelcina is documented medically. Please read the following text.

<FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN lang=EN-CA style="text-shadow: none; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA">More astounding still may be the thoroughly-documented cure of a construction worker named Giovanni Savino, who was severely injured on February 15, 1949, in a dynamite mishap. When Dr. Guglielmo San- guinetti, a physican, and Padre Raffaele, another Capuchin, and Father Dominic Meyer rushed to the injured man's side, “all three men noted that among Savino's numerous injuries, his right eye was gone entirely. They agreed that 'the socket was empty',” reports biographer Bernard Ruffin. Other doctors confirmed that the eye was completely annihilated and the other one badly damaged.

I'm not sure what this demonstrates. While many Hindus (including myself) believe that Hinduism is objectively true to the exclusion of contradictory religions, almost none of us believe that God is relegated to the Hindu community. I'm sure that anyone who prays to God with devotion can receive his blessing, including miraculous cures. This doesn't necessarily validate every doctrine of the person's religion, and it most certainly doesn't mean that Christians in India don't stage miracles in order to convert Hindus. Assuming that this interview is accurate, the priest in question blatently admitted to staging miracles. It'll be hard to deny what he himself has freely confessed.

Ramakrishna
10 February 2011, 10:11 PM
Namaste,

I don't have much to say. That just seriously angers me :po:

He is so happy seeing "idols being destroyed by the hands of those who had been idolaters" and them him and his new Indian Catholic converts go pray to bread and wine and they drink blood and eat flesh...

It's all types of Christians, from Catholics to evangelical Pentecostals who are destroying India. Obviously two things that would help stop this is ending caste discrimination and banning missionaries. The first one is much easier said than done, but the second one can be easily done. But it is sad how Christians are slowly taking over the government as well. Something has to be done...

Jai Sri Ram

bp789
10 February 2011, 10:24 PM
This is disheartening. Is there anything that can be done by plain old regular people to stop this? A lot of us live outside of India, so even though we know all about this, we don't really know what to do to stop this...

By the way, it is not only foreign missionaries that do this. Many successful missionaries are also Indian converts.

Ramakrishna
10 February 2011, 10:32 PM
This is disheartening. Is there anything that can be done by plain old regular people to stop this? A lot of us live outside of India, so even though we know all about this, we don't really know what to do to stop this...

Namaste bp789,

Especially after reading the thread about moving back to India, I am thinking about moving there and doing whatever I can do to stop this madness. I would like to add a third thing to the list I mentioned above to stop this, and that is education. I assume most Hindus in India, especially the poor ones, are just kind devoted people who are not very good at apologetics. But if they just learn a few basic things about their faith and how to defend against Christianity then they will be better off.

Reading about this pandit is inspiring: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/blogs-news/hindu-press-international/u-s--priest-helps-revive-hindu-faith-in-south-africa/10763.html

Jai Sri Ram

Ramakrishna
10 February 2011, 10:34 PM
Which government do you speak of Sire? :)
Sonia would like to convert India into a Catholic nation. The number of missionaries in India has gone up many folds since the fall of the BJP govt., who kept them in check for the few years that they were at the helm. More and more crypto Xitians are being brought into the govt. every day. The attack on Hinduism is on under the guise of secularism. Still Indian Hindus find a reason to not support BJP - the lesser of the two evils - for one reason or another. They will end up getting what they deserve, not what we would like to see.

Namaste Believerji,

I don't know much about Indian politics. Generally speaking, does the BJP take a strong stand against missionaries and do you think they would ban them, while the INC takes a softer stance on missionaries and the Christianizing of India?

Jai Sri Ram

Eastern Mind
10 February 2011, 11:07 PM
Hi all!
I am sure that they do not stage healing miracles. For example the healing of St. Pio of Pietrelcina is documented medically. Please read the following text.



Vannakkam: You're a Hindu?

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
10 February 2011, 11:24 PM
Which government do you speak of Sire? :)
Sonia would like to convert India into a Catholic nation. The number of missionaries in India has gone up many folds since the fall of the BJP govt., who kept them in check for the few years that they were at the helm. More and more crypto Xitians are being brought into the govt. every day. The attack on Hinduism is on under the guise of secularism. Still Indian Hindus find a reason to not support BJP - the lesser of the two evils - for one reason or another. They will end up getting what they deserve, not what we would like to see.

Yes, you bring up a good point. I almost hate to admit it (emphasis on the almost). But when it comes to running a country, Indians are completely inept. We fight over trivialities and allow things like this to happen in our own country. Maybe we should take a page out of the American evangelicals' book. America is a secular nation, and yet the evangelicals have everyone convinced that it was founded on Christian values. Let's contemplate this for a moment. Many of America's founders, including such prominent men as Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were avoid deists (which is effectively the same as being atheist). All of the documents written during America's founding, while invoking the idea of a Deity, express or imply that America is not a Christian nation. Paine even wrote an entire pamphlet denouncing organized religion, and by "organized religion" he had Christianity and Judaism in mind. Despite all this, these evangelicals have everyone convinced that America is a Christian nation founded on Christian principles. India, on the other hand, is the birthplace of the Vedas, the home of all our rishis and kings of old, the home of every avatar of God, the veritable holy land of Hinduism. You would think that we Hindus could proclaim India as a Hindu nation without any opposition, and yet we've managed to screw it up.

The fact of the matter is that we are a bunch of fools who've somehow managed to let the country fall into the hands of secularists and Christians. Many in India don't even recognize that the only reason the Christians are fond of secularism is because they see it as a prelude to overrunning the nation with Christianity. You don't see Christians being persecuted in America or Jews in Israel, nor do Muslims suffer for their religion in Saudi Arabia. The fact that there is such a thing as Hindu persecution in India is laughable. How can 80% of the population be persecuted by such a small minority? Yet somehow we've been so passive as to allow it to happen. I'm not suggesting militancy, but there are some simple things we could do to end all of our woes. Some states have already passed anti-conversion laws, but we ought to ban proselytizing outright, and fine people for publishing materials that promote Christianity. We would also do well to deport non-citizens who come to do missionary work. The indiginous Indian Christian population has lived in India relatively peacefully for the past millenium; ejecting the foreign Christians would mostly solve our problems with the Christian religion. And most importantly, as Ramakrishna has already said, Indians should be actively educated in Hinduism so that our own religion isn't alien to us.

sm78
11 February 2011, 02:15 AM
If you ask me, the greatest fault lie with the Hindu religious leaders, jagatgurus, seers and saints who have displayed no social consciousness and geopolitical understanding for over a millenium. Its a big shame and a sham in the name of spirituality. Ordinary people always followed and still follow their guidance. They pay hefty donations to these saffron clad monestry leaders, maintains them with food and shelter, falls to their feet every second. What do they get in return? Some abstract or sentimental nonsense about God and devotion, mostly.

A nineteenth century bengali scholarly work ("prachin bharoter dandaniti"~roughly translated as "the system of justice and punishment in ancient India") says that discussion, thoughts & developments regarding the art of statecraft, geopoliticts and justice which had always occupied the most central theme of our culture ~ its epics & puranas and even specialized literatures, virtually became extinct from 8th century onwards.

Philosophers got busy with whether vedanta means dvaita, advaita or dvaitadvaita or some other gibberish, often accoompanied with tiring tongue twisting 'logic'. The saints became busy with "bhakti-only" interpretations of our common man shastras, ignoring and eliminating many other important life-lessons embedded in these magnificent epics and purans - which formed the bedrock of common man's hinduism.

Have you ever heard a pravachak drawing conclusions about society's well being or and correct political jutice while giving pravachans on ramayana or mahabharata or gita?? 2 mega wars faought that changed the political landscape of ancient india, so many punishment and justice dispensed by Rama & Krishna on the way, yet not a single political lesson highlighted in any of the commenteries and lakhs of pravachans ??

Isin't this lack of intelligence and creativity? Hindus and hinduism has become too unrealistic and imaginary, dealing with imaginary relationships with imgainary gods of individual persons.

The immediate and concrete relationship of every individual is with the society he lives in and the people, plants & animals. That is the first living manifest of God - our own body and this world we live in. Yet, we disregard his most concrete & real manifestations while we wail and argue about our imaginary relationships with personal gods.

In years of Muslim tyranny we didn't had the power or means, but still there were some great voices of dissent who made religion and spirituality a real affair.

Now Hindu's have a majority and the religion is still not only in threat, but perhaves the greatest threat in 5000 years. Yet what do Hindu gurus, jadaguru's, yogis and saints spend their time on? Whatever they are upto you will never find this topic on their lips or in their mind. Most of them are busy participating in international conferences of religions and world peace, when not teaching yoga or making pravachan on bhakti or some dead saint's greatestness.

This cannot be stopped by common man like you or me, believe me, we had tried. Only power talks. While govt power is beyond reach at this point, power of these saints and saint-talkers is still huge even among those newly converted christians. If they united raise a call to stop conversion and counter aggression, christianity would have vanished. But they won't, fearing loss of their repuatation or imprisonment. One you think that who has renounced the world is least inclined to fear the loss of his body or imprisionment, yet these renunciates seem to be most obsessed with their bodies.

This is the legacy of buddist folly which have been essentially adopted by Hindus since the medevial phiolosophical movement.

I echo Believer's sentiment in stronger words, we Hindus in India deserve this. Nobody else is to be blamed. But among the Hindus, the common man who has to work 9 hours, look after a family, in one of the poorest countries of the world, where everyday is a struggle for survival, is the last person to be blamed. Those who are sitting in monesteries on high pedastals, feeding on the poor man's labour and basically doing nothing, needs to be accountable first.

Sahasranama
11 February 2011, 05:53 AM
The fact that there is such a thing as Hindu persecution in India is laughable. How can 80&#37; of the population be persecuted by such a small minority? Yet somehow we've been so passive as to allow it to happen.I'd like to read more about the Hindu persecution in India, does anyone have a link?

Sahasranama
11 February 2011, 06:03 AM
Have you ever heard a pravachak drawing conclusions about society's well being or and correct political jutice while giving pravachans on ramayana or mahabharata or gita?? 2 mega wars faought that changed the political landscape of ancient india, so many punishment and justice dispensed by Rama & Krishna on the way, yet not a single political lesson highlighted in any of the commenteries and lakhs of pravachans ??Swami Chinmayananda and Swami Dayananda of the Arsha Vidya Gurukula have talked a lot about politics. I remember in one lecture that Chinmayananda talked about Christian missionaries targeting the uneducated Indians. He also said, don't let the Christian missionaries tell you that your gods are imaginairy while their God is real.

Here is another example of Chinmayanda talking about politics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vQw0mmcU64

sm78
11 February 2011, 06:46 AM
Swami Chinmayananda and Swami Dayananda of the Arsha Vidya Gurukula have talked a lot about politics. I remember in one lecture that Chinmayananda talked about Christian missionaries targeting the uneducated Indians. He also said, don't let the Christian missionaries tell you that your gods are imaginairy while their God is real.

Here is another example of Chinmayanda talking about politics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vQw0mmcU64


There are one or two others as well, and then there was the swamy who was killed in Orrisa for opposing Christians. I personally knew Swami Ashimananda who is now in custody for the Malegaon blast. But you will exhaust the count within 10.

But there are lakhs and lakhs of sannyasis belonging well known orders with influence and clout. Thousands get ordained every year. But more important are the big shots, Jagadgurus, world leaders of spirituality who have sprawling ashrams accross the globe, lakhs of devotees, non-stop coverage on devotional TV's. What are they doing? Is it an unfair question to ask for the society who take care of their maintainence and get nothing in return?

I know its another difficult pill to sallow, but till our leaders change or they are changed, there is little hope Hinduism.

Who are at the forefronts of Muslim and Christian aggression? Mullahs, religious warriors, fathers, ministers and priests, is it not?

Who are at the forefront of Hindu defence, one may ask? One can say no one. But there were, are many householders, ordinary people who have fought the Hindu cause - but almost no (No, in the sense of proportion) Gurus, Yogis or saints. But the fact is, these are the people who must be at the forefront.

NayaSurya
11 February 2011, 07:53 AM
The immediate and concrete relationship of every individual is with the society he lives in and the people, plants & animals. That is the first living manifest of God - our own body and this world we live in. Yet, we disregard his most concrete & real manifestations while we wail and argue about our imaginary relationships with personal gods.



Such a wonderful sentiment, some here in my homeland search for Beloved all their lives, without ever seeing He dwells so very close in the eyes of the ones around you. Here, they have this thing called Child Fund which was previously christian child fund or some such nonsense and I see them use children from India so often...it makes me sick that they use them on these commercials and speak of how filthy and hungry they were before CCF stepped in and helped...they speak of giving them an education.:mad:

The truth is... it is indoctrination to the most desperate. It's hard not to become angry so I speak much of this with my children and tell them never to give money to such insidious organizations. Donating to locations such as Parmarth Niketan where the funds would go to support Hindu groups care for children is the only option. I can do very little from this space to help but I will do whatever I can...I will begin telling everyone whom I know is not christian here about this issue in hopes they will also avoid such charities as CCF.

sm78
11 February 2011, 08:10 AM
@anantam: you have asked me what I am personally doing w.r.t this issue. Firstly, understand that I am not posing myself as a Jagadguru, a world leader of spirituality having huge reach across the hindu population. My job is not to inspire others in any matter be it spirituality or politics. Neither am I a khastriya with power and presence and required bravery. I mostly do Shudra work, and being able to take care of my dependants and keeping my religious practice alive in home and community is more than my share of things.

However as a member of the community I often wonder who is to blame for our plight. And we discuss these thoughts at an intellectual level in these forums. One may question value add of internet intellectual discussions, but the fact you are here rules out such stands.

All I am doing here is sharing my thoughts on the issue like everybody else. Me being a secret Hindu terrorist or not being one, doesn't make any difference to the basic premise of internet discussions and content of my posts. Either what I say is incorrect or they are correct. They will not change based on what I do.

However to satisfy your curiosity and possibly sarcasm, I can tell you I have been involved in the Hindutva movement in the past, mostly in the periphery, like many other ordinary people. Thus I have somewhat been able to see the people at work and who does what.

Sahasranama
11 February 2011, 09:09 AM
These videos have been posted earlier on the forum, but for those who have not seen it yet, this is another shocking revelation of the missionary work in India:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Zxjndf0mw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkvdtzk1pbo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52Jok2Jzt3s&feature=related

sanjaya
11 February 2011, 10:15 AM
I'd like to read more about the Hindu persecution in India, does anyone have a link?

Wikipedia has an article on Hindu persecution, with a section on the persecution occurring in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#In_the_Indian_subcontinent

Believer
11 February 2011, 10:07 PM
Deleted - System glitch - multiple posts.

Believer
11 February 2011, 10:08 PM
at
If you ask me, the greatest fault lie with the Hindu religious leaders, jagatgurus, seers and saints who have displayed no social consciousness and geopolitical understanding for over a millenium.

SM78, thank you for taking the time to list all the problems from your perspective. It must have been a very painful thing to do - to see the problems and not be able to do anything, other than to bring them to everyone's attention.

I concur with you on most thing. The high priests of other religions do consider the protection and propagation of their religion as one of their major tasks, which sadly is totally absent in Hinduism. The only reason I can think of for that, is that there is a total lack of spirituality in other religions. It is impossible for a spiritually realized soul to play that game. So the Hindu high priests, who are spiritually realized souls, can be excused on those grounds. But it is at the lower level, the every day 'pandits' who should be held accountable for that. For them priesthood is just a profession, a way to make a living by performing pujas/ceremonies/delivering sermons etc.. This bottom line clergy, who are in touch with temple going people on a daily basis are the ones who should be shaping the opinion of the common man. Even they could be under instructions from the temple management to desist from political talk, or if they own their temple, they might be afraid of the heavy hand of the politicians governing their area/district coming down to snuff them. As we know, politicians do have a host of goondas, who do their dirty work. Just my thoughts on who is responsible for this task of shaping the thinking of/electrifying the general population, and why they are not doing it.

Believer
11 February 2011, 10:09 PM
Deleted - System glitch - Multiple posts.

Sean
11 February 2011, 11:03 PM
Believer, I do feel that a religion's strength lies in not pushing it on people. Nothing gets people's attention like someone who's sure and doesn't care what the next person thinks.

mohanty
12 February 2011, 02:12 AM
No offence, but is the article for real? The Father Johnson guy says exactly what many Hindus would like to hear. Not that it is not true, but what are the odds of a Christian preacher openly saying things like "white man's burden" and admitting to devious modes of indoctrination?

sm78
12 February 2011, 02:27 AM
Believer, I do feel that a religion's strength lies in not pushing it on people. Nothing gets people's attention like someone who's sure and doesn't care what the next person thinks.

Very true. If only all Hindus were such self conscious thinking individuals, no religion would have made in roads.

saidevo
12 February 2011, 03:40 AM
namaste Sahasranama.


I'd like to read more about the Hindu persecution in India, does anyone have a link?

Please read these books if you haven't already:
History of Hindu-Christian encounters
http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books/hhce/

Hindu Society under Siege
http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books/hsus/

This link has many books that deal with Hindu dharma rakShaNa:
http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books.html

Rationalist
12 February 2011, 03:58 PM
Believer, I do feel that a religion's strength lies in not pushing it on people. Nothing gets people's attention like someone who's sure and doesn't care what the next person thinks.

Christianity must be wiped out. I am so sick of seeing demon spawn running around and converting everyone to Demonianity.

sm78
21 February 2011, 08:15 AM
As I often myself travelling on road in south india, often through country side, I get to see the effects of christianity and how it is changing the indian society.

This time it was in a Bangalore suburb rural area on a Sunday evening and for a long strech of the road, Christian public congregations was very much in my face. Many churches, many of them decorated with lights on the Sunday evening, and some functions being held in open air under tents - very much like Hindu satsangs. Two functions seemed to be linked with a weird (from the poster) "Crusade for Christ" movement or cult? I could hardly any notice any Temple or Hindu funtions. There were small deserted temples in a few corners. In such situations it seems a little strange that Christianity is protrayed as a small minority in India. The father was right, India is indeed embracing Chirstianity and I wonder when official figures will start reflecting this fact.

After usual bout of sadness and depression at the state of affairs, and I began to wonder, why suddenly Hindus are embracing such a primitive and backward set of beliefs when their own religion offers much greater depth and spiritual relief. But people don't follow religions for spirituality. Religion is intrinsically related to society, culture and polictics, and even if Hindu religious leaders deny that fact, it won't change the reality. Spirituality needs no religion - not even Hinduism.

I thought how few or perhaves no practicing Brahmins, temple priests etc would ever probably accept Xianity, even after a 1000 preachings and display of fake miracles, even though they are equally or perhaves more financially needy when compared to the rural converting crowd. It is because these communities are actually involved in the Hindu religions with real commitments to it. For the rest of us, Hinduism demands no direct involvement or commitment, except donations to maintain these priests and the population of sadhus. We have very little or no ownership in our temples, we merely go there to offer our prayers, meditate and offer our donations. Beyond that we have no clue who runs these temples or their role in the community.

A church on the other hand offers a perfect socio-cultural and political congregation. People own what goes around their churches (or they are made to believe as such). At any rate they are much more involved with the Church activity than an average Hindu would be with the temples in their locality.

This non-involvement of average Hindus in temple affairs and consequently such low involvent of temples in the day to day life, culture and politics of a community has made them completely vulnerable. How long will they sustain purely on the common beliefs on local deities by the population. When you don't matter much, you cease to matter at all. This is what is happening with common man;s Hinduism - it has mattered so little for so long now, it is ceasing to matter at all. Xianity provides a much more vibrant social and communal well being, while temples are become relics of past ideals.

TatTvamAsi
22 February 2011, 03:22 AM
hmm.. terribly disappointing.. in fact.. as each day passes, more of these christian vermin, with funds from the west, are chipping away at Indian culture.

It is especially bad in south India. I hope Hindus will realize the danger and defeat these asuras sooner rather than later.

Kumar_Das
22 February 2011, 08:06 AM
Namaste bp789,

Especially after reading the thread about moving back to India, I am thinking about moving there and doing whatever I can do to stop this madness. I would like to add a third thing to the list I mentioned above to stop this, and that is education. I assume most Hindus in India, especially the poor ones, are just kind devoted people who are not very good at apologetics. But if they just learn a few basic things about their faith and how to defend against Christianity then they will be better off.

Reading about this pandit is inspiring: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/blogs-news/hindu-press-international/u-s--priest-helps-revive-hindu-faith-in-south-africa/10763.html

Jai Sri Ram

This is exactly what I try to achieve with my posts. Defense against xtians and muhammadans. Unfortunately the asuras are winning even here on this forum, as I see many of their posts cluttering the forum up...

Kumar_Das
22 February 2011, 09:15 AM
After usual bout of sadness and depression at the state of affairs, and I began to wonder, why suddenly Hindus are embracing such a primitive and backward set of beliefs when their own religion offers much greater depth and spiritual relief. But people don't follow religions for spirituality. Religion is intrinsically related to society, culture and polictics, and even if Hindu religious leaders deny that fact, it won't change the reality. Spirituality needs no religion - not even Hinduism.

I thought how few or perhaves no practicing Brahmins, temple priests etc would ever probably accept Xianity, even after a 1000 preachings and display of fake miracles, even though they are equally or perhaves more financially needy when compared to the rural converting crowd. It is because these communities are actually involved in the Hindu religions with real commitments to it. For the rest of us, Hinduism demands no direct involvement or commitment, except donations to maintain these priests and the population of sadhus. We have very little or no ownership in our temples, we merely go there to offer our prayers, meditate and offer our donations. Beyond that we have no clue who runs these temples or their role in the community.

A church on the other hand offers a perfect socio-cultural and political congregation. People own what goes around their churches (or they are made to believe as such). At any rate they are much more involved with the Church activity than an average Hindu would be with the temples in their locality.

This non-involvement of average Hindus in temple affairs and consequently such low involvent of temples in the day to day life, culture and politics of a community has made them completely vulnerable. How long will they sustain purely on the common beliefs on local deities by the population. When you don't matter much, you cease to matter at all. This is what is happening with common man;s Hinduism - it has mattered so little for so long now, it is ceasing to matter at all. Xianity provides a much more vibrant social and communal well being, while temples are become relics of past ideals.

I'm sorry but your points are invalid.

'Participation' and 'active involvement' in place of worship aren't what true worshippers need to be commited to a religion.

I know Kristies very well. And I posted before that I have had experience going to church.

Kristianese people-ism (gathering of church members, holy communion, sunday worship, activities of their ministries, sermons and preaching by their pastors) is one of the most hilariously stupid and redundant as well as obnoxiously fake outward spiritualism I have ever seen.

bottomline:

Kristianity is a dirty mleccha religion. And vast majority of Kristies are hilariously stupid when it comes to religion. Of all the Abrahamic religions, Kristies disgust me the most. The Jews are not bad and I can even stand the Hammies. But Kristies are below both.

1) Church serves as some sort of cheap and shallow social experience. It targets on meek and the poor and wants them to remain in their condition
so that they are dependant on it.

2) Kristies go to church to gossip and compare clothing.

3) The moment two Kristies step out of the church, they are total strangers.

Theres alot of difference between Hindus in Temples and Kristies in their churches. You will find Hindus eating prasada and sitting with their families even as a form of relaxation. Hindus don't put up an act. Sure Hindus aren't as much "brother, brother" the way Hammies or Kristies are. But atleast Hindus don't hamp it up for show. For Kristies and Hammies they get to stroke their ego through their religion and religious identity, their affection towards fellow members of their is 100% feigned because the next moment a Kristy or a Hammy denounces being one, they will turn upon you and roast you for being a heathen/murtad like as though they never once knew you and their comraderie is an extension of their own self-centredness.

In church, Kristies behave like as if they are a bunch of braindead sheep that follow the orders of their pariah preachers. You will hear their nuns and "fathers" saying "you are not supposed to ask such questions", "just have faith" and "thats satan influencing you".

sanjaya
22 February 2011, 10:34 AM
I'm sorry but your points are invalid.

'Participation' and 'active involvement' in place of worship aren't what true worshippers need to be commited to a religion.

I know Kristies very well. And I posted before that I have had experience going to church.

Kristianese people-ism (gathering of church members, holy communion, sunday worship, activities of their ministries, sermons and preaching by their pastors) is one of the most hilariously stupid and redundant as well as obnoxiously fake outward spiritualism I have ever seen.

bottomline:

Kristianity is a dirty mleccha religion. And vast majority of Kristies are hilariously stupid when it comes to religion. Of all the Abrahamic religions, Kristies disgust me the most. The Jews are not bad and I can even stand the Hammies. But Kristies are below both.

1) Church serves as some sort of cheap and shallow social experience. It targets on meek and the poor and wants them to remain in their condition
so that they are dependant on it.

2) Kristies go to church to gossip and compare clothing.

3) The moment two Kristies step out of the church, they are total strangers.

Theres alot of difference between Hindus in Temples and Kristies in their churches. You will find Hindus eating prasada and sitting with their families even as a form of relaxation. Hindus don't put up an act. Sure Hindus aren't as much "brother, brother" the way Hammies or Kristies are. But atleast Hindus don't hamp it up for show. For Kristies and Hammies they get to stroke their ego through their religion and religious identity, their affection towards fellow members of their is 100&#37; feigned because the next moment a Kristy or a Hammy denounces being one, they will turn upon you and roast you for being a heathen/murtad like as though they never once knew you and their comraderie is an extension of their own self-centredness.

In church, Kristies behave like as if they are a bunch of braindead sheep that follow the orders of their pariah preachers. You will hear their nuns and "fathers" saying "you are not supposed to ask such questions", "just have faith" and "thats satan influencing you".

Wow...I couldn't have put it better myself. That's a pretty accurate description of what I've seen in Christian behavior as well.

Rationalist
24 February 2011, 07:04 PM
I'm sorry but your points are invalid.

'Participation' and 'active involvement' in place of worship aren't what true worshippers need to be commited to a religion.

I know Kristies very well. And I posted before that I have had experience going to church.

Kristianese people-ism (gathering of church members, holy communion, sunday worship, activities of their ministries, sermons and preaching by their pastors) is one of the most hilariously stupid and redundant as well as obnoxiously fake outward spiritualism I have ever seen.

bottomline:

Kristianity is a dirty mleccha religion. And vast majority of Kristies are hilariously stupid when it comes to religion. Of all the Abrahamic religions, Kristies disgust me the most. The Jews are not bad and I can even stand the Hammies. But Kristies are below both.

1) Church serves as some sort of cheap and shallow social experience. It targets on meek and the poor and wants them to remain in their condition
so that they are dependant on it.

2) Kristies go to church to gossip and compare clothing.

3) The moment two Kristies step out of the church, they are total strangers.

Theres alot of difference between Hindus in Temples and Kristies in their churches. You will find Hindus eating prasada and sitting with their families even as a form of relaxation. Hindus don't put up an act. Sure Hindus aren't as much "brother, brother" the way Hammies or Kristies are. But atleast Hindus don't hamp it up for show. For Kristies and Hammies they get to stroke their ego through their religion and religious identity, their affection towards fellow members of their is 100% feigned because the next moment a Kristy or a Hammy denounces being one, they will turn upon you and roast you for being a heathen/murtad like as though they never once knew you and their comraderie is an extension of their own self-centredness.

In church, Kristies behave like as if they are a bunch of braindead sheep that follow the orders of their pariah preachers. You will hear their nuns and "fathers" saying "you are not supposed to ask such questions", "just have faith" and "thats satan influencing you".

I hate Christianity. If I had three wishes, I would wish that the Adharmic religions never existed and the damage they have caused be undone.

I despise Christians even more. They are the most intellectually incapable and most ignorant people I have ever met. They are as idiotic as the sheep the caveman Israelites led throughout the Eastern Mediterranean. They are the bane of civilization and literally, the reason why the world is in the condition it is. I now understand why Nero wanted to wipe them out.

Your post reminds me of a time when some white girl who sat next to me was talking about her sex-life. The conversation she was having with other guys (talk about chastity) eventually gravitated to Church. It was then that I actually heard her say "He (God/Jesus) always forgives us" :laugh: when I heard of the guys criticizing Christians for their hypocritical nature.

This is the Kali Yuga after all, a time when demonic ideals take on the guise of righteousness and overtake the world.

jaggin
10 May 2011, 10:09 AM
Wow, this evangelist's honesty is almost chilling. He admits, among other things, that they stage miracles. This article really highlights what is so wrong with Christianity. I hope the government has the good sense to abandon secularism and just ban Christian missionaries outright.

If you believe that you are extremely gullible. The article wasn't written by Johnson. My experience with news reporters is that they ask dieologically slanted questions, and then turn the answers into their own views of what the person said. The result is usually as far from the truth as one could imagine.

However there are elements of truth, ie Christians do build hospitals and schools and work with the poor. It is also true that miracles can take place in Christian work but only if people believe. Efforts to engender belief are not meant to deceive but to inflate the possible. This is an end justifies the means since people being healed is a good thing.

jaggin
10 May 2011, 10:16 AM
I hate Christianity. If I had three wishes, I would wish that the Adharmic religions never existed and the damage they have caused be undone.

I despise Christians even more. They are the most intellectually incapable and most ignorant people I have ever met. They are as idiotic as the sheep the caveman Israelites led throughout the Eastern Mediterranean. They are the bane of civilization and literally, the reason why the world is in the condition it is. I now understand why Nero wanted to wipe them out.

Your post reminds me of a time when some white girl who sat next to me was talking about her sex-life. The conversation she was having with other guys (talk about chastity) eventually gravitated to Church. It was then that I actually heard her say "He (God/Jesus) always forgives us" :laugh: when I heard of the guys criticizing Christians for their hypocritical nature.

This is the Kali Yuga after all, a time when demonic ideals take on the guise of righteousness and overtake the world.

Hating people puts you right in the devil's anteroom as his best pal. You will fit right in with Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

If Hinduism stands for hating people then it is an evil religion.

Christianity on the other hand is a religion based on love for people.

jaggin
10 May 2011, 10:58 AM
I'm sorry but your points are invalid.

'Participation' and 'active involvement' in place of worship aren't what true worshippers need to be commited to a religion.

I know Kristies very well. And I posted before that I have had experience going to church.

Kristianese people-ism (gathering of church members, holy communion, sunday worship, activities of their ministries, sermons and preaching by their pastors) is one of the most hilariously stupid and redundant as well as obnoxiously fake outward spiritualism I have ever seen.

bottomline:

Kristianity is a dirty mleccha religion. And vast majority of Kristies are hilariously stupid when it comes to religion. Of all the Abrahamic religions, Kristies disgust me the most. The Jews are not bad and I can even stand the Hammies. But Kristies are below both.

1) Church serves as some sort of cheap and shallow social experience. It targets on meek and the poor and wants them to remain in their condition
so that they are dependant on it.

2) Kristies go to church to gossip and compare clothing.

3) The moment two Kristies step out of the church, they are total strangers.

Theres alot of difference between Hindus in Temples and Kristies in their churches. You will find Hindus eating prasada and sitting with their families even as a form of relaxation. Hindus don't put up an act. Sure Hindus aren't as much "brother, brother" the way Hammies or Kristies are. But atleast Hindus don't hamp it up for show. For Kristies and Hammies they get to stroke their ego through their religion and religious identity, their affection towards fellow members of their is 100&#37; feigned because the next moment a Kristy or a Hammy denounces being one, they will turn upon you and roast you for being a heathen/murtad like as though they never once knew you and their comraderie is an extension of their own self-centredness.

In church, Kristies behave like as if they are a bunch of braindead sheep that follow the orders of their pariah preachers. You will hear their nuns and "fathers" saying "you are not supposed to ask such questions", "just have faith" and "thats satan influencing you".

Pardon my ignorance but are you referring to your reaction to Christian worship when you state "hilariously stupid." Obviously my reaction is different perhaps because I am not hilariously stupid, so I wouldn't be likely to have that reaction. Now if a person were to not be so emotionally invovled and could actually make an objective reasonable deduction based on superior knowledge, how would the assessment turn out?

This is as absurd a statement as any I have ever seen. The prime objective of Christianity is to eliminate sin and it does it better than any other religion. So if Christianity is dirty does that make Hinduism a pile of s**t?

1. Church is a gathering of believers. As such it is going to have social value as well as religious value because God is more interested in people than He is in ritual. It is the nature of Christianity to form loving relationships. Church does not target the poor and I have never known any church to champion or encourage poverty. The opposite is true. Those who have much, have a Christian obligation to help those who have little.

2. This is human nature not Christianity and not the purpose of church gatherings.

3. Granted that this can be the case when people do not practice their Christianity well but it has not been my experience with the churches that I have attended. However it is often quite true that people come from disparate backgrounds and neighborhoods so that their paths would not normally cross. However I do happen across church members in the marketplace and always stop to chat a minute.

I am sure instances can be found of this but it is not good Christian practice.

That is a bit bizarre but I can imagine it happening in a Catholic Church which is quite different from reformed Christian churches, although you might hear the latter if a concept appears to have an evil source. (lies fit into that category)

Adhvagat
10 May 2011, 11:23 AM
This is as absurd a statement as any I have ever seen. The prime objective of Christianity is to eliminate sin and it does it better than any other religion. So if Christianity is dirty does that make Hinduism a pile of s**t?

A pile of ****? Perhaps a nice pile of pure cow dung (useful to seal our houses from radiation while christians and muslims bomb each other to death)!

I see that catholicism still allows people to smoke and eat meat. And evangelicals still eat meat.

I'd say Hinduism eliminates more sins when we consider vegetarianism, ahimsa and the view that the Earth is a living being that needs respect and not something given by God to be enjoyed upon, therefore Hinduism also has the potential to eliminate sin in the envinronmental spectrum, a much needed attitude nowadays.

Ah, and if Christianity considers sex an original sin (from which kids born as sinners already), why doesn't it advocate that sex should only be practiced for procreation as some stricter sects of Hinduism advocate?

Hinduism would actually be purer and better at eliminating sins just by looking at the basics. ;)

sanjaya
12 May 2011, 12:54 AM
If you believe that you are extremely gullible. The article wasn't written by Johnson. My experience with news reporters is that they ask dieologically slanted questions, and then turn the answers into their own views of what the person said. The result is usually as far from the truth as one could imagine.

It's relatively easy to type these words, much harder to actually demonstrate that what you say is true. In my experience, Christians are liars who refuse to plainly state their intentions and motivations. Even you, one of the more polite Christians, tend to obscure yourself in vagueness instead of saying outright that you want us to convert. If you have any reason to believe that the interview written here was conducted in an untoward manner, please demonstrate why this is so.

You say I'm gullible, yet expect me to swallow Christianity without even giving it a second thought. We'll not believe the claims of Christians so readily, as you have proven yourselves untrustworthy to Hindus time and again.

wundermonk
12 May 2011, 04:08 AM
Christianity on the other hand is a religion based on love for people.

It doesnt follow from this statement that other religions are not. Moreoever this statement is meaningless if you have to kill heathens and/or convert them to your brand of Christianity and then, ONLY THEN, love them.

If I lead an exemplary life (helping others, doing my Karma, providing for my family, etc.) without believing in the exclusivity of Jesus as the sole pathway to God, where do you think I will be in my afterlife? What is your religion's theological position on this issue?

An example of a person that may have led an exemplary life without believing in Jesus could be Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims and Christians tried their best to convince him to believe in the same fairy tales that they did. But the Mahatma remained Hindu. Is your position that Mahatma Gandhi burned in hell for not believing in the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost? If someone *CAN* go to heaven without believing in the Christian trinity, why convert/evangelize in the first place?

sanjaya
12 May 2011, 12:33 PM
If I lead an exemplary life (helping others, doing my Karma, providing for my family, etc.) without believing in the exclusivity of Jesus as the sole pathway to God, where do you think I will be in my afterlife? What is your religion's theological position on this issue?

Christianity asserts an equality of all sins for the purpose of judgment and eternal reward/punishment. It's not an oversimplification to say that if you lead an exemplary life but stole a paper clip once when you were ten years old, you go to hell for all eternity. If one asserts this equality of all sin and eternal punishment as the default consequence, and if we accept Christian substitutionary atonement, then I suppose it makes sense that the only cure is to transfer your sin to Jesus (by converting to Christianity) so that you don't have to go to hell for it.

Christianity is logically consistent. After all it has to, they've had 2000 years to refine the theology. The problem with Christianity isn't that it's irrational, it's that it betrays our basic sensibilities about what God ought to be like. Of course there's also the numerous historical errors in the Bible (incorrect description of creation, anachronism in the story of Abraham, lack of physical evidence for the exile, lack of contemporary references to Jesus, etc.). But I think this is secondary to the problem of a God who effectively legitimizes sin by punishing all misdeeds with the same sentence. The teaching of karma agrees far better with my personal conscience, for it asserts that sins are punished proportionate to their magnitude.

I think that most evangelicals don't believe in their own religion, despite how strongly they claim to. If I believed that my family and friends were going to eternal hell unless they converted to Christianity, I would be begging them day and night to convert, and I would do little else. Most evangelicals do not make this sort of a scene, and when confronted about it, excuse themselves via the sovereignty of God in all things. I, however, find this to betray their professed belief in this most harsh Christian doctrine.

jaggin
30 June 2011, 08:41 AM
It doesnt follow from this statement that other religions are not. Moreoever this statement is meaningless if you have to kill heathens and/or convert them to your brand of Christianity and then, ONLY THEN, love them.

If I lead an exemplary life (helping others, doing my Karma, providing for my family, etc.) without believing in the exclusivity of Jesus as the sole pathway to God, where do you think I will be in my afterlife? What is your religion's theological position on this issue?

An example of a person that may have led an exemplary life without believing in Jesus could be Mahatma Gandhi. Muslims and Christians tried their best to convince him to believe in the same fairy tales that they did. But the Mahatma remained Hindu. Is your position that Mahatma Gandhi burned in hell for not believing in the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost? If someone *CAN* go to heaven without believing in the Christian trinity, why convert/evangelize in the first place?

I agree. I don't think that person's attitude was coming from his religion. However I don't remember a high occurrence of love mentioned in the Vedas. It would be helpful for me to see some examples.

Killing people is rarely an act of love. Converting people is an act of love if that salvation is necessary and most Christians would agree that it is.

You will end up wherever God decides you should go.

Many Christians believe that but I do not. I can only speculate but I suspect theat Ghandi ended up being reincarnated. I doubt that he would have had a clue how to get to Heaven. Heaven is nice but I don't see it as an objective. However I don't see how a non-Christian could get there easily. I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely for an enlightened person to get there. Conversion isn't for the purpose of going to Heaven but to eliminate sin in this life.

charitra
30 June 2011, 10:44 AM
I agree. I don't think that person's attitude was coming from his religion. However I don't remember a high occurrence of love mentioned in the Vedas. It would be helpful for me to see some examples.

Killing people is rarely an act of love. Converting people is an act of love if that salvation is necessary and most Christians would agree that it is.

You will end up wherever God decides you should go.

Many Christians believe that but I do not. I can only speculate but I suspect theat Ghandi ended up being reincarnated. I doubt that he would have had a clue how to get to Heaven. Heaven is nice but I don't see it as an objective. However I don't see how a non-Christian could get there easily. I wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely for an enlightened person to get there. Conversion isn't for the purpose of going to Heaven but to eliminate sin in this life.

Himalayan academy has sent the below excerpt today, thought would be apprpriate here. Read on:

Dr. Ramdas Lamb's Take on Conversion Challenges (http://www.hinduismtoday.com/blogs-news/hindu-press-international/dr--ramdas-lamb-s-take-on-conversion-challenges/11257.html)[/font]

"The problem of conversion will be solved if the Hindu parents live and practice Hinduism in their lives. Just preaching is not enough and it is not going to work. You have to walk the talk. Parents have to silently put Hinduism in action so that the children can observe and follow them. This is how I have taught my children and it has worked very well." These views were expressed by Dr. Ramdas Lamb, Associate Professor, Dept. of Religion, University of Hawaii while speaking on the subject- "Effects of Conversion on Native Cultures and Society" at a meeting organized by Vivekananda International Foundation on Thursday, 23rd June, 2011. The event attended by a large number of intellectuals and students of Delhi University was chaired by Shri Bharat Gupt, an Associate Professor in English at the College of Vocational Studies of the University of Delhi.

Dr. Ramdas Lamb began his speech by stating, "There is a need to understand the dynamics of conversion. I am not against conversion and I cannot be as I am myself a convert. But then we need to understand what is conversion and how conversion is taking place." [/font]
He went on to say, "There are three types of religions. The first type are those who are based on the teaching of a single prophet. So the process of converting to a prophetic religion is giving up everything else. In this type of conversion the loyalty to one type of teaching becomes important. It is a conversion of loyalty from one belief system to another belief system. Their truth is the only truth and has to be followed. This is the kind of consciousness that is there in Christianity and Islam. If you are a Christian you are good and will go to heaven but all others would go to hell. For a good Christian, the Christianity is more important than your family, than your community and even more important than your country. So the religion becomes more important than your father and mother and your brother and sister. You can leave everyone but not Christianity. So in this case, tolerance for others is bad and the concept of tolerance does not exist. When you convert to this kind of prophetic religion you gain the attitude that you are going to heaven while others are going to hell. You are right and others are wrong. This could even make you a bit high headed." [/font]

The second type of religion is ethnic religion. This kind of religion is based on a group of people. If you do not belong to that ethnicity you cannot be a part of that religion. For instance if you are not Japanese you cannot be a Shinto. So it is a very small concept of religion. This kind of religion is very bound by genetics." [/font]
]

Then comes the third type and they are universal religions and Hinduism is one of the major universal or world religion that I see when I teach religions. Hinduism is the largest non converting religion. This is the religion which does not proselytize. When you convert to a universal religion, you gain consciousness. The purpose of the universal religion is only to expand consciousness. So we grow and we add, we do not subtract. You add consciousness and you add awareness. This is what universal religion teaches." [/font]
[

]Dr. Ramdas Lamb said, "When my guruji gave me diksha he told me to allow thoughts to come and allow consciousness to expand. He told me that I was a soul and a soul has no limitations whatsoever. Therefore your brain should not be bound by any limits. So far I have taught around ten thousand students and this is what I teach them. I am trying to get my students understand Hinduism as a universal religion. Needless to say many of my students get deeply interested in Hinduism because they want to expand their consciousness. They are not looking for a label which prophetic religions provide you. If you have to enhance your perception of reality and you have to allow consciousness to grow within then ignore the labels, that is what a universal religion gives you an opportunity to do." [/font]

He further stated, "What missionaries do not tell people here is that Christianity is losing popularity in Christian countries. Why it is losing popularity is that actually it does not teach much. For becoming a Christian you have to believe in something. Once somebody becomes Christian he is assured that he is going to heaven. So much so that even if I kill or loot somebody, it does not matter as my going to heaven is certain because of my having become a Christian. Therefore it removes responsibility. They do not have much to offer in terms of teaching. Also if you ask questions, it is not appreciated. In contrast my guru always told me that Lord Rama has given you brain and you must use it for thinking and questioning." [/font]



]Introducing Professor Ramdass Lamb, chairperson for the event Shri Bharat Gupt said, "Professor Lamb is one of the very few professors of Hindu religion in American Universities. Why he is one of the few, the reason is that he is Hindu himself. Around forty years back he became a sadhu and wandered in various places for around one decade. Later on the behest of his guru he became a householder and a professor. For a lot of die hard Hindus it is difficult to understand how a sannyasin becomes a householder but then there are times when certain things become essential as they are done due to apat dharma [dharma to be followed in emergency situations] or yuga dharma [dharma to be followed according to the need of a particular period of time] . But what is most important is that he is one of the very few Hindus who are there in the American academia." [/font]

]He went on to say, "You know Hinduism is not taught in India and there are no departments of religious studies in India. The cruel joke is that though we declare ourselves the torch bearers of eastern spirituality, there is no formal study of it at all. This is the real face of the Indian secularism that thinking about religion is kept out of the educational system. So as a consequence we have no Hindu professors teaching Hinduism anywhere in the world. If we are not training scholars in Hinduism then how will they teach Hinduism in the universities abroad. As a result our own children are studying Hinduism books written by non Hindu scholars in the universities abroad." [/font]


Shri Bharat Gupt pointed out, "There are forces who say that if the colour of one's skin is white one cannot be a Hindu and there are others who say that if you have left India and settled abroad, you cannot be a Hindu. So according to such people neither Professor Lamb, nor my two children settled abroad can be treated as Hindus. If this is how we are going to think, then finally how many Hindus will be there in this world. Time has come that we now need to openly debate on many such questions and arguments." [/font]

The event ended with a lively interaction between the audience and the speaker. Expressing their views during this period, some of the youth leaders of Delhi University made a somewhat sensational revelation that there were forces which were trying to convert the cream of the students of Delhi University to Christianity and so much so that around three to four hundred bright students who came to Delhi from all parts of India were getting converted every month. Shri Mukul Kanitkar of Vivekananda International Foundation invited these students to share the details of such conversions so that appropriate measures could be taken to check this menace which was there right in the capital of India. [/font]