the nature of self (not Atman self)

[Eric11235]

Vannakam

During some periods of intense meditation, I have come to a realization of the contradictory nature of the self. I'm feeling that after I post this, I will have my "argument" refuted or specified, which is fine with me. Anyway, I've realized that the self is both non-existent and exists in everything.

What I mean by this is that we all exist within each other and everything else. However, the body prevents us from being aware of this connection, so while I am aware that I am everything and everything is me (likewise for anyone who reads this), I cannot feel my existence in everything because of the human vessel. Also of note, the senses exist in the body and emotions are formed by the body and not the soul or not necessarily.

The soul is constant, and exists among everything as everything is part of the universal. However, the universal is also what happens when one attains moksha (or the soul reassimilates with the universal) moksha which is the problem with my argument.

If anyone takes issue with this please let me know, I will try to be part of the discussion should one arise, but there are no guarantees I will.

In conclusion my basic argument is that the self only exists in the body and the soul is part of the universal in some respects but the body and brain partition us. This is how I view everybody, as my equal, no one is below, and no one is above, we are all on level ground.

I hope this helps somebody, and hopefully no one will take heavy issue with it.

Namaste

[Onkara]

Namasté Eric
I think that is good insight you share with us, thank you. :)
I would like to add that it is not the body alone which "prevents us" but my identification with the body and my actions which bind me (Bhagvad Gita (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/) 7.13).

The body still has a divine purpose/cause. Prakriti is one with the Lord (Bhagvad Gita (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/) 7.4, 14.20). So we too are one on the material level (prakriti) as well as spritual level (atman) (Bhagavad Gita (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/) 5.7, 13.20).

Best wishes!

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric


you mention,

I cannot feel my existence in everything because of the human vessel.
What you say is reasonable. Yet be advised that not feeling your existence everwhere is just temporary. What you are talking is bout is called the blossoming of Being or satatoditam, without break or pause - the contiguous level of Being on every strata of creation being experienced. This comes with time if one continues their practice.

More on this if there is interest is here on these HDF posts:

1. One stop enlightenment ? http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6901 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6901)
2. Ādi Śaṅkara's Self and non-Self: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4033)


praṇām

[Eric11235]

Vannakam,

Yajvan, thank you for posting the other threads, I think in your terms I am between I am the universe and I am. I don't know how good that is. But I should note that during particularly intense meditations my concept of self starts to melt. So I think i'm doing something right.

I've also noticed that with the realization of the nature of self and the I am the Universe and I am there is extreme detachment. I became one with everything and lost all desires and I was ready for death if it should choose to take me. It was a powerful experience, I felt the true nature of the soul and atman. Moksha is still far away but I feel i've made a great stride

Onkara, you make a good point.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric


Vannakam,

I think in your terms I am between I am the universe and I am. I don't know how good that is. But I should note that during particularly intense meditations my concept of self starts to melt. So I think i'm doing something right.

What you offer is encouraging... Note we have 3 levels here:


I am
I am the universe
I What is key is what occurs outside of meditation. During meditation we are grooming the awareness, the nerverous system to adapt to this natural level of Being.

Talk to us aout your everyday experiences, walking down the street or interacting with others. Talk to us about what you experience during sleep and dream time. Are you observing these modes of consciousness?

praṇām

[Eric11235]

Vannakam yajvan

In my everyday life, I keep an amiable tone of voice and treat people as equals as I am aware of the nature of the true self. If something that could be perceived as negative occurs, I take it peacefully and do not get angry or sad as I realize that bad things are bound to happen and they must not be taken as the end of the 4 yugas. I also cultivate self awareness by looking at a metaphysical mirror, looking at how I react to various emotions and realizing that since the soul is constant, these emotions are on a human level and while not necessarily a bad thing, occur naturally and should not be totally avoided, and when I walk down the street I am lost in contemplation, singing, or performing japa (with my mala concealed in a baggy)

In regards to dreams, they are closely connected to the Novel I am writing, I have dreams about my characters and their interactions, but sometimes I have dreams about life itself.

In terms of interaction with other people. Despite relative detachment (not true detachment as of yet) I keep animated and talkative, perhaps a little too much so in some cases, but I try to keep people talking so the conversations aren't one sided, when I am along I contemplate what all this means and I feel myself getting closer to the divine, realizing more about my self, atman and the universe as a whole. I also realize that others approval is not necessarily everything and that since the self exists in everything, I should not take avoidance or overlooking as something negative

While this is written from my point of view and thus is slightly biased I am reporting my experiences as truly as I can while at the same time may paint an overly positive picture.

It should be of note that I came to these realizations while reading the Bhagavad Gita for the first time, but that the realizations did not spring but were rather reinforced by Krishna's discourse. I maintain action in this world while keeping detached inside, as that is what Krishna says is the better of the dichotomy (Inaction vs. Action) and while Inaction is good I feel that I should be active.

Namaste

[Eric11235]

Something has happened and I need elucidation.

20 minutes ago, I started feeling strange. Nothing about my body changed, but I felt something, then I became hyper aware of everything. I became aware of the smallest particles surrounding me. Every sense became this indescribable feeling, and at first it was terrifying. I don't know what it is though.

Now, the feelings of awareness of the universe are dissipating and knowledge is taking its place. I think i'm starting to feel true detachment. I see everything from a neutral lens.

If anyone else has experienced this, please comment, I need help understanding this

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric

Over time & with one's practice and attention ( sādhana), sattā ( Being) becomes satta ( seated) in ones awareness.

You are experiencing the expansion of awareness. Note that awareness is in you and around you. We take it easy and know that only good is happening. We allow this experience to unfold.

praṇām

[Eric11235]

Vannakam yajvan

The feeling has subsided and Detachment has become the dominant feeling throughout my body. Desire has ceased (at least temporarily) and I am in complete self awareness.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric


Vanakkam yajvan

The feeling has subsided and Detachment has become the dominant feeling throughout my body. Desire has ceased (at least temporarily) and I am in complete self awareness.

We need to see if this takes hold. How will we know, I will explain in a moment. First , lets talk about this word 'terrifying'. Note this feeling/experience is new to you. The body circuitry is settling-in with this new mode of functioning. Not to worry - just be easy about it. Calmness is said to be the means.

Now to see if this new mode takes hold. We cycle though 3 types of awareness ~states~ in a given day. Wake, dream and sleep. For you , perhaps the 4th, (turīya) is taking hold. This is not new consciousness/awareness but the basis of all awareness a human can experience. For you it is becoming ( me hopes) your standard operating system.

How do we know it is taking hold ? Note your experiences in the next few days. During wake dream and sleep this sense of SELF does not diminish. You continue to be possessed of the Self as the wise say. What dos that mean ? Your frame of reference is from your Self, this is called Self-referral.

Let me offer a fancier word - it is cittaviśrānti. This means the condition of the mind that is seated in the Self. Some would say a concentrated mind, devoid of random thoughts, noise, perutations and the like. It is becoming ( of has become) seated in purity.


For you it suggests a more balanced time, even-ness - sama.

More as you ask questions.

praṇām

[Eric11235]

Namaste

I am hoping that it takes hold, what you speak of is certainly possible. As for the re-wiring, I think to put it in computer terms the state of hyper-awareness was somewhat of a restarting of the system. Sort of like installing a new operating system for the constant soul.

At this particular moment, I am feeling a pure sense of detachment. I do not feel any sense of need. By this I mean that restraint is setting in. And although my body is telling me to follow the desires, my new frame of mind is restraining (not necessarily in a harmful manner) me from doing these things.

I am also in a state of complete self awareness. I am aware of all my actions and desires and it is almost like watching myself from a slight distance, seeing how I am and how I do things. It is very interesting.

Accompanying the detachment is a non-emotional joy. A joy that cannot be described as it is. A joy that comes from commune with the divine. A joy that need not be expressed outwardly. very pleasant

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric


How do we know it is taking hold ? Note your experiences in the next few days. During wake dream and sleep this sense of SELF does not diminish. You continue to be possessed of the Self as the wise say. What dos that mean ? Your frame of reference is from your Self, this is called Self-referral.
I was hoping to hear back from you on your night time exprence. Can you advise?

praṇām

[Eric11235]

Vannakam Yajvan, I was curious as to why you didn't answer

For my night experiences and the preceding hours, things reverted slightly back to normal, but with heightened awareness. Things aren't permanently changed yet, but I feel myself flowing in and out of detachment. I sometimes stop feeling completely and feel teh calmness of the universe, feel the constancy of the soul, and lose all emotion.

On occasion, I will be standing and my mind will step back and look at how I perceive events. It will see the neutrality of all actions, and I will feel no attachment to things, no desires. Desire and emotion stem from the perception of good and evil (bad), once that perception is taken from the equation, you can become detached.

However, there is something that has changed. My mind feels like it exists on two planes, one plane is this reality and I feel my body experiencing these things. But at the same time I feel Atman, the true self, and it perceives everything impartially.

This is leading to Cognitive Dissonance as I experience emotion and don't at the same time. My sleep is more emotionally filled and my sleeping consciousness is strange.

This is how things are at the moment. Please respond as you see fit. Turiya is coming I believe.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric



Please respond as you see fit. Turiya is coming I believe.

It is good to hear of your progress. You mention turīya is coming. The good news, it is there already. It is the underlying continuity, the foundation on which wake, dream, and sleep rest on.
What is coming is more of its exposure to one's daily life. This is all good.

praṇām

[Eric11235]

Vannakam

What is meant by Turiya coming, is my awareness of it. I know it is there, but I have yet to truly experience it. Which is why I say it is coming

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Eric



Vannakam

What is meant by Turiya coming, is my awareness of it. I know it is there, but I have yet to truly experience it. Which is why I say it is coming

I will be good for you to spend some time with the following posts;
IMHO these offer a substantial foundation on this matter - we then can take the conversation further.

The import of turīya: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

Finding turīya : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2996

Revisting turīya: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312

praṇām