The Idiocy of Hindus - HAF's 'Not Cast in Caste'

[TatTvamAsi]

Hindu American Foundation (HAF) is a popular organization that claims to speak on behalf of Hindus, not just in America, but the entire world!

Their founder, Aseem Shukla, has become somewhat popular recently for his much-publicized 'debate' with that half-wit dolt Deepak Chopra on the roots of Yoga.

I used to have a lot of respect for HAF until very recently. This is because they have just released a report called Hinduism: Not Cast in Caste which ostensibly acts as a self-correcting mechanism within the Hindu ethos to expunge caste-based discrimination (otherwise known as 'casteism') once and for all.

At first glance, such a report may seem innocuous and even valiant to those who pine for the plight of the down-trodden in India (all of whom are automatically judged to be from a "low" caste :rolleyes:), but when looked at more deeply, this so-called scholarly report is little more than half-baked tomfoolery based on tenuous sources and are of highly questionable motives.

Rajiv Malhotra, whom I believe is doing extraordinary work in bringing the anti-Hindu agenda within western academia, Indian media, and elsewhere, to the forefront, has unequivocally lambasted this "report" stating that it is highly dangerous for Hindus, at a time when Hindus [on the world stage] are vulnerable and so easily targeted through various means, to criticize themselves at this juncture.

Here is the link to the 10 basic points of the report [full one has not been published for the public yet]: http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/hinduism-not-caste-caste-full-report

Here is Rajiv Malhotra's exhaustive rebuttal to the HAF's ignominious 'report': http://hindu-caste-haf.org/articles/19-rajiv-malhotras-critique-of-haf-report-on-caste

There have been many other luminaries in academia and elsewhere who have made in no uncertain terms this reports' irreparable damage to Hindus and the Hindu cause.

When there is so much trash being written about Hinduism, India, and Hindus/Indians by outsiders, what is the necessity for this pious-egotistic 'report'? The HAF has apparently used christian missionaries as sources for this report! Apart from glaring errors and mistakes of this report, Hindus have an inexplicable need to criticize, incriminate, and denigrate themselves. We Hindus will find it difficult to get people to argue for our cause, yet there will be a long line of so-called Hindus who are ready to enumerate the shortcomings of India, Hinduism, and Indians/Hindus.

Why is it that Indian Hindus have this need to "appear" to outsiders that we are morally upstanding and/or "kind" and "benevolent" when our actions speak far louder than any so-called report can? When organizations of other religions write reports, it is almost always about how the followers of their religion are being "persecuted" or are being targeted and in need of assistance etc. And these people are the ones committing untold atrocities across the world through unfair economic principles and trade, violence, and severely biased scholarship.

If a Hindu writes about the positive contributions of Hinduism and Hindus, there will be ten so-called Hindus waiting to rebut his every point and write a book each countering that. With "friends" such as these, we don't need the Abrahamics to attack us at all; we'll do it ourselves while proclaiming our 'secularism' and 'democratic principles' gleefully.

[sm78]

After a long time I agree with you on that. ;) While self criticism is not always bad, but in the present case it was dubious and greatly damaging to Hindu interest with no positive aspect.

I think its another case of corruption which is rabid among Hindus, the HAF executives must have recieved hefty donations from evangelists to publish such a report.

[Sahasranama]

This campaign is useless and will only bring more negative attention towards Hinduism. The campaign for yoga, however lofty, has also brought a lot of negative attention towards Hinduism from the yoga side. This is only because Aseem Shukla didn't know how to make a good case for himself. He was using terms like "Hinduism's copyright of yoga" which has only raised more suspicion. Aseem Shukla is just not the right person to defend Hinduism, we need someone who is intelligent and knowledgeable like Chanakya Pandit. Aseem Shukla is trained as a surgeon, he has his own biases about Hinduism. He is not trained in Hindu thought. A better defence of the Hindu legacy of yoga is something like this: http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/ (http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/)

[MahaHrada]

This campaign is useless and will only bring more negative attention towards Hinduism. The campaign for yoga, however lofty, has also brought a lot of negative attention towards Hinduism from the yoga side. This is only because Aseem Shukla didn't know how to make a good case for himself. He was using terms like "Hinduism's copyright of yoga" which has only raised more suspicion. Aseem Shukla is just not the right person to defend Hinduism, we need someone who is intelligent and knowledgeable like Chanakya Pandit. Aseem Shukla is trained as a surgeon, he has his own biases about Hinduism. He is not trained in Hindu thought. A better defence of the Hindu legacy of yoga is something like this: http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/ (http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/)

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning their history and religion at all, the majority of hindu and muslim intellectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance. Historical facts, like for instance the existence of a proto indo european culture and language or any other truth that is at odds with one or the other fairy tale, makes them feel offended victimized and then foaming at the mouths like any run of the mill mullah.

The article you mentionend is from the viewpoint of the history of Indian religion and philosophy and Hatha Yoga, utter hogwash. I could have commented earlier upon this topic but frankly i have given up any hope to stem the tidal wave of desinformation and half truths.

Rajiv Malhotra, who has had some good ideas in the past, is now entangled in delusional conspiracy theories and feels victimized by all and everybody, probably he snapped since the time he was trying to whitewash his money grabbing criminal Guru , being a disciple of Nithyananda, while he is doing that, with his other hand he is spitefully attacking stalwarts of Hatha Yoga like Iyengar who has done so much to educate people worldwide about hatha yoga.

The vitriolic atacks on western practioners of Yoga he has been broadcasting to other evil minded people, who in turn started attacking hatha yoga, has not at all been benefical to Hinduism.

In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west, it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.
Hatha Yoga became worldwide known and respected , only due to a handfull of people like Iyengar, Shivananda, Krishnamacharya and two or three lesser known people and their dedicated western disciples, that are now attacked by the very same people that always hated Hatha yoga and the "dirty beggars" that practiced it. They despised the Indian practioners back then, when it was rescued almost from oblivion, and now aparently they still hate it. These attacks have been unjustified in the 70ies and they are unjustified now, many westerners have contributed so much to the development of Hatha Yoga. Due to the combined effort of Indian Hatha yogis and western medical practicioners, hatha yoga has become worldwide renowned for its healing powers. Get rid of these raving mullahs please, or they will destroy what is left of hindu culture.

[Sahasranama]

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning theri history and religion at all, the majority hindus and muslim intelectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance. Historical facts like for instance the existence of a proto indo european culture and languageor any other truth that is at odds with one ore the other fairy tale, makes them feel offended victimized and then foaming at the mouths like any run of the mill mullah.
Are you talking about the Aryan Invasion theory?


The article you mentionend is from the viewpoint of the history of Indian religion and philosophy and Hatha Yoga, utter hogwash. I could have commented earlier upon this topic but frankly i have given up any hope to stem the tidal wave of desinformation and half truths.What of that article do you think is hogwash? The author has analysed older Hindu texts to find mention of yogic postures.


Rajiv Malhotra, who has had some good ideas in the past, is now entangled in delusional conspiracy theories and feels victimized by all and everybody, probably he snapped sincethe time he is trying to whitewash his money grabbing criminal Guru , being a disciple of Nithyananda, while he is doing that he is spitefully attacking stalwarts of Hatha Yoga like Iyengar who has done so much to educate people worldwide about hatha yoga.

The vitriolic atacks on western practioners of Yoga he has been broadcasting to other evil minded people who in turn started attacking hatha yoga, has not at all been benefical to Hinduism.
I can only agree with you on this one.



In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.Still hatha yoga did develop in Hinduism. I do think we should thank the westerners for taking so much interest in hatha yoga. They have played a large role in reviving the teaching. Maybe similar to the Buddhists who preserved the teachings of meditation.

[sanjaya]

Hmm, I always thought that the HAF was excluded from the mass idiocy. They've always been proactive about defending Hinduism in America, as opposed to the obliviousness of those who are fresh off the boat. And I know that Shukla is trained as a doctor, but let's face it: that's about as Hindu as you can get. I'd be really surprised to see them publishing reports that denigrate Hinduism. I'll have to take some time out today and read their report.

[sm78]

In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west, it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.
Hatha Yoga became worldwide known and respected , only due to a handfull of people like Iyengar, Shivananda, Krishnamacharya and two or three lesser known people and their dedicated western disciples, that are now attacked by the very same people that always hated Hatha yoga and the "dirty beggars" that practiced it. They despised the Indian practioners back then, when it was rescued almost from oblivion, and now aparently they still hate it. These attacks have been unjustified in the 70ies and they are unjustified now, many westerners have contributed so much to the development of Hatha Yoga. Due to the combined effort of Indian Hatha yogis and western medical practicioners, hatha yoga has become worldwide renowned for its healing powers. Get rid of these raving mullahs please, or they will destroy what is left of hindu culture.

While it is true that hatha yoga has never been given much importance in any of the pan-hindu sects, some sort of asana practice has long been part of hindu traditions, whether for theraputic reasons or balancing exercises to mantra sadhana and kundalini heat. My guru completed his sadhana back in 1930's. His guru back in 1890's. There sampradaya writings shows the practice of hatha yoga as intergral to sadhana, much before it was popularized from 70s.

But traditional hatha yoga centered around a few classical mudras like mahamudra and few asanas. I also don't know if it can be traced back prior to the hatha yoga and tantra, back into yoga sutras. We will never know, what patanjali intended - but basic asana, mudra, bandhas etc are well established both in texts and actual practice much before the current hype which started with Iyengar etc. But yes, perhaves that practice was integrated into normal spiritual dicipline and centered around few mudras as I said, and nothing like present day hatha yoga which has much western influence and contribution.

The persons who ridiculed hatha yoga back in 70's or prior were perhaves neo-ventains, followers of Ramakrishna and such people who didn't have any sampradaya background, but took pride in the pseudo intellectual dabbling as they continue to this day. But I am sure there were ancient/medieval genuine hatha yoga practicing hindu sects who were blissfully unaware of the whole issue.

[sm78]

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning their history and religion at all, the majority of hindu and muslim intellectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance.

This is true, Hindu intellectuals spend far too much time in researching western conspiracy theories and enemies of hinudism in the west, where the actual truth is the India and Hinduism does not matter much to 99% of the western population. Its just a soft target to deflect attention on and this preventing self criticism.

By self-criticism I mean constructive self-criticism like challanging exclusivity of Hindu temples, disinterest of hindu religious leaders in social well being of Hindus, and not like HAF's pamplet distribution to UNHC criticising the caste system.

From whatever angle one analyses, the bottomline is Hindu's have become quite stupid.

[MahaHrada]

Are you talking about the Aryan Invasion theory?


No i am talking of the widespread denial of the existence of P.I.E. culture and language, the common heritage of indian as well as european civilizations.



What of that article do you think is hogwash? The author has analysed older Hindu texts to find mention of yogic postures.


We are talking about Hatha Yoga here not Yoga as such. Hatha Yoga originated not earlier than the 12th century. Only a few sitting postures are taught in older hindu shastras. All other is fairy tales. Even Gorakhnath who is well known to be the founder of Hatha yoga, in his Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati, one of the oldest and most authentic shastras of the Nath sampradaya, (which sampradaya is the origin of Hatha Yoga), mentions only 4-or 5 seated positions. This means that the practice of Asanas as it used in Hatha Yoga is probably even later than Gorakhnaths time. (Gorakhnath lived around 12 century ce)

In the first tantric and agamic shastras (around at the earliest in 100 ce usually dated later) other than a set of simple seated bodily postures, only a few mudras and bandhas are known, meant to move the prana shakti during japa, this cannot be called Hatha yoga which consists of sequences of body postures, combined with corect breathing which grant diverse benefits.




Still hatha yoga did develop in Hinduism. I do think we should thank the westerners for taking so much interest in hatha yoga. They have played a large role in reviving the teaching. Maybe similar to the Buddhists who preserved the teachings of meditation.



Among millions of western practicioners there are virtually none who deny the origin of Hatha yoga in India and its connection with bharata dharma. This is all propaganda and lies.

There are even many who use hindu mantras and prayers in their sessions even if they are not hindus and have only little knowledge of Hindu Dharma.

I don´t know why anyone should want to deny to others to benefit from Hatha Yoga also if they are non Hindus. What is wrong for instance about Yoga against obesity? Many Hindus also suffer form obesity and visit clinics. (instead of learning Yoga)

Is it unspiritual to be healthy and spiritual to be sick?

But instead of being proud that millions of people benefit form Hatha Yoga practice, even learn to respect Hindu deities and prayers, instead of realising that Hindus in turn are benefitting from the improvement of the practice by the addition of western knowledge of anatomy and medicine, some of the hindu leaders start a literal hate campaign against foreign Yogis.

Congratulation on your leadership.With these leaders you do not need enemies.

[MahaHrada]

While it is true that hatha yoga has never been given much importance in any of the pan-hindu sects, some sort of asana practice has long been part of hindu traditions, whether for theraputic reasons or balancing exercises to mantra sadhana and kundalini heat. My guru completed his sadhana back in 1930's. His guru back in 1890's. There sampradaya writings shows the practice of hatha yoga as intergral to sadhana, much before it was popularized from 70s.

But traditional hatha yoga centered around a few classical mudras like mahamudra and few asanas. I also don't know if it can be traced back prior to the hatha yoga and tantra, back into yoga sutras. We will never know, what patanjali intended - but basic asana, mudra, bandhas etc are well established both in texts and actual practice much before the current hype which started with Iyengar etc. But yes, perhaves that practice was integrated into normal spiritual dicipline and centered around few mudras as I said, and nothing like present day hatha yoga which has much western influence and contribution.

The persons who ridiculed hatha yoga back in 70's or prior were perhaves neo-ventains, followers of Ramakrishna and such people who didn't have any sampradaya background, but took pride in the pseudo intellectual dabbling as they continue to this day. But I am sure there were ancient/medieval genuine hatha yoga practicing hindu sects who were blissfully unaware of the whole issue.

Yes, exactly the same misogynists that nowadays march around and smear western hatha yoga have done that in the past.

My early posting and yours have overlapped. Like i said in my other posting, of course there are a few bandhas and mudras and a few seated postures that are earlier. But sequences that are done for hours are a modern invention, and shastras talking about more than a few seated postures and Kriyas are dating at the earliest from the 12th century and originated solely from the Nath sampradaya.

Of course there have been other early sequences of bodily postures in India, done in physical education by kshatriyas and dancers for instance.

But to say Hatha yoga is vedic is utter hogwash, it is not based on upanishads or patanjalis yoga sutras, another medieaveal fairy tale, but on writings like Hatha yoga Pradipika, Goraksa Sataka, gheranda Samhita and other nath shastras, which in turn are partly based on earlier tantras and agamas, regarding the kriyas, bandhas and seated asanas. Where the sequences come from is unknown, but there is a fair chance that meera nanda is correct about tibeto burmese and chinese influences.

[Sahasranama]

Indeed, there's mostly mention of seated postures like padmasana, virasana and others, but also some standing postures which is used for tapasya. I would not deny that Hatha yoga has been developing throughout the history of Bharata Dharma.


Among millions of western practicioners there are virtually none who deny the origin of Hatha yoga in India and its connection with bharata dharma. This is all propaganda and lies.I agree and that's why I said that Aseem Shukla has probably raised more suspicion than doing anything helpful for the Hindus.


There are even many who use hindu mantras and prayers in their sessions even if they are not hindus and have only little knowledge of Hindu Dharma.I have noticed this too and I am always delighted to see westerners chanting mantras and doing kirtana, even if they don't know much about Hinduism.



I don´t know why anyone should want to deny to others to benefit from Hatha Yoga also if they are non Hindus. What is wrong for instance about Yoga against obesity? Many Hindus also suffer form obesity and visits clinics.

Is it unspiritual to be healthy and spiritual to be sick?

But instead of being proud that millions of people benefit form Hatha Yoga practice, even learn to respect Hindu deities and prayers, instead of realising that Hindus in turn are benefitting from the improvement of the practice by the addition of western knowledge of anatomy and medicine, some of the hindu leaders start a literal hate campaign against foreign Yogis.

Congratulation on your leadership.With these leaders you do not need enemies.Yes, you make a good point, yoga can also be used for therapeutic purposes and we should be proud that people all over the world are using hatha yoga to make themselves healthier.

[BryonMorrigan]

The thing that always irritates me about Western attacks on "caste-ism" is the idea that the West is immune from such concepts.

For example: My "real" last name is not "Morrigan." That's a pseudonym that I use for writing and the Internet, in order to not air my "business" in public. My real last name identifies me as an "Immemorial Noble" of England. Basically, that means that I am a direct descendant of the English nobility. In 1066 CE, my ancestor of the same name was a knight in William the Conqueror's Norman invasion of England, and his descendants held many titles in England until our family fell out of favor in the 1700s, leading my branch to move to the US and start anew.

For hundreds of years, my lineage and last name would have been all that was needed to show that I was essentially of the Western version of the "Kshatriya" varna, and certainly above the status of the Western "Vaishyas" with names like "Baker," "Smith," or "Cooper." Still, in modern times, many people of noble descent have dropped the "de," or "von," from their last names in order to not seem so "snooty."

In ancient Rome, the "castes" were (in this order) Patrician, Equite, Plebeian, and Servi.

Anyone who thinks that Western societies have no "Shudras," should really walk around a Western city for a few hours. You will see them...and you will see many Westerners recoiling from them as from "untouchables."

The West has no more moral "authority" on this matter than India, and should instead focus on helping the Indian government deal with the Christian and Muslim terrorists in the Northeast and Northwest.

[BryonMorrigan]

And this is one of my favorite excerpts from Malhotra's counter-essay:

"The new buzz of excitement in these radical right-wing Christian circles is that this is the right time to introduce bills in the US Congress whose ultimate effect would be to pressure the Indian government on certain social policies. Demands will be made that could try to: (1) open the floodgates for massive faith-based funding from overseas, in the guise of human rights, far more openly than before; (2) enact laws or policies in India to curtail Hindu voices further; (3) require that US corporate activities and investments in India should give employment preference to certain "minorities" and "oppressed" peoples, and Christian groups have prepared their ground forces in India over several years to pounce on this opportunity and claim the lion's share of the benefits; and (4) start prosecuting caste-based "human rights violations" under international laws."

People in India need to realize that the Left in the USA and the Left in India are two different things. India is generally FAR to the Left of the USA in political issues...and the Right-Wing in America is basically nothing more than a tool of the Christian Dominionists. This is why, in America, I am considered to be a "Liberal," but in India I would basically be considered a "Moderate" or even "Right-Winger" on many subjects.

[MahaHrada]

Indeed, there's mostly mention of seated postures like padmasana, virasana and others, but also some standing postures which is used for tapasya.

Yes, tapasya, that is correct, that indeed is the most ancient element of Yoga that indeed goes back to vedic times but rather to the shramanas, than to the vedic community.

[Sahasranama]

How do you explain this line from the Hatha Pradipika:

praṇamya śrī-guruṃ nāthaṃ svātmārāmeṇa yoghinā |
kevalaṃ rāja-yoghāya haṭha-vidyopadiśyate || 2 ||

Yogin Swâtmârâma, after saluting first his Gurû Srinâtha explains Haṭha Yoga for the attainment of Raja Yoga.

What is raaja yoga here?

[MahaHrada]

How do you explain this line from the Hatha Pradipika:

praṇamya śrī-guruṃ nāthaṃ svātmārāmeṇa yoghinā |
kevalaṃ rāja-yoghāya haṭha-vidyopadiśyate || 2 ||

Yogin Swâtmârâma, after saluting first his Gurû Srinâtha explains Haṭha Yoga for the attainment of Raja Yoga.

What is raaja yoga here?

Raja Yoga is the practice of the Shadangas according to the tantras, which is other than in Pantanjali Yoga sutras. Raja Yoga here is concernend with the conquest of the three lakshyas, the 16 adharas and the chakras. It means in the context of the H.Y.P. or Natha sampradaya, that the stages of Raja Yoga are first concerned with the marma points,(Pratyahara) moving conciousness and prana shakti up and down the body in certain sequences, dharana is meditation on the bhutas and other objects partly internalised in the body, partly located outside (16 adharas), while dhyana is fully internalised, dwelling on the chakras and nada/Bindu only, and samadhi is achieved by Kundalini jagaran either by Laya Yoga or nada Anusandhana or both.

Some would say that the whole krama starting with becoming mindful of the marmas and ending with kundalini Jagaran is Raja Yoga. Others may say that only the last stage Nada Anusandhana or Laya Yoga is truly Raja Yoga.

The Verse does not mean thatthe Raja Yoga described is only based on Patanjali and is something separete or even more advanced than Hatha Yoga, it only means that the HYP gradually leads one through all the steps to the topmost achievements, which are described in the HYP as Raja Yoga. So the Raja Yoga meant in that verse is exactly what is described in the very same shastra, of course it is not what Patanjali understood as being Raja Yoga according to the samkhya doctrine, as some uneducated people that want to belittle Hatha Yoga and Tantra as being inferior to Patanjalis Raja Yoga might like to make people belive. Exactly what one would expect of people that look down on Hatha Yoga.

People confuse the Patanjali Yoga darshana which is based on Samkhya darshana, with the Hatha Yoga originating from Nath sampradaya which is based on the tantras and agamas and aims to realise the shambhavi or samarasya achievement rather than aiming for complete mental isolation, reached in the state of Kaivalya of the Samkhya doctrine and propagated in Patanjalis Yoga sutras as the highest achievement.

[MahaHrada]

In the version of the HYP in 10 chapters, which is a more complete variety of the shastra the verse runs like this:

sri AdinAthaya namostute tasmai
yenopadistA hatha yoga vidyA
virAyate pronnata rAja yogam
Arodhum Icchor adhirohinIva

I bow to sri adinatha who propagated the hatha yoga knowledge
which is regarded a ladder to reach the highest state of Raja Yoga.

Which is a little more clearly in pointing out that the HYP teaches a graded path, (beginning with yama niyama, asana, pranayama and culminating in Raja Yoga)

[Sahasranama]

Interesting, that is the first verse in the 4 chapter version, I posted the third verse, where can we get the 10 chapter version?

[MahaHrada]

Interesting, that is the first verse in the 4 chapter version, I posted the third verse, where can we get the 10 chapter version?

The 10 chapter version begins with a salutation to Ganesha and the statement:

atha hatha pradipo likhyate, "now the hathapradipa is written" followed by the quote i mentioned as verse 3 and then it goes right on with verse 2 of the 4chapter version "pranamya srigurum..." etc.

followed by verse 3 which is also quite similar to the 4 chapter version:

"bhrAntya bahumata dhvante rajayogamajAnatAm
hathapradipikam dhatte svAtmArAmaH ksamAkarah"

For the benefit of those deluded by divergent views who are full of ignorance of Rajayoga, Svatmarama expounds, full of compassion, the Hathapradipika.

So it is very clearly stated, if we look at the verses in context, in the beginning of the shastra that the aim of the book is to provide a complete yoga manual for absolute beginners those "full of ignorance of Rajayoga" and it will gradually lead them from the very beginning, in this case yama and niyama, to the highest states of Yoga.

The 10 chapter version is available form lonavla institue Lonavla 41401 Pune India A-7 gulmohar apartment, Bhangarvadi

[PARAM]

.........................

It was wonderful great Hindu Warriors, before spreading of Christianity might be your forefathers were King / Earl / Duke of some Kingdom or Empire.
But I have to clear something, In India there was never Casteism, all this is made politically
in caste they only want reservation quota, that’s why they call themselves Dalit / Backward to get SC / ST / OBC etc caste based benefits.

Hinduism clears Varna system, and that is based on Karma and not Birth, and no Varna among four was untouchable, only Adharm or Kukarm doers were untouchables, anti Hindus are spreading lies.



---------------

-------------- Is this a Yog thread ?

[sm78]

For example: My "real" last name is not "Morrigan." That's a pseudonym that I use for writing and the Internet, in order to not air my "business" in public. My real last name identifies me as an "Immemorial Noble" of England. Basically, that means that I am a direct descendant of the English nobility. In 1066 CE, my ancestor of the same name was a knight in William the Conqueror's Norman invasion of England, and his descendants held many titles in England until our family fell out of favor in the 1700s, leading my branch to move to the US and start anew..

Side tracking a bit, but it really amazes me how people in the west keep track of their family tree to such long way back. In our case we forget after 3-4 generations. I don't know, it must be better in south india since it has been more stable, but this culture is indeed missing now in India (used to be very important once). I don't think it is common among Indians to think about their family tree or trace back and research out broken links.

I admire this western practice, because it gives much pride and clarity about one's nationality and history. It is a good thing, I think.

[Shanti]

:iagree:

Just the other day my son was asking me for the names of his great, great, great grandfathers and grandmothers and I felt horrible having to tell him that I didn't know.

My husband's family is from south India and he does have a much better understanding of at least the past 3-4 generations. I don't know beyond my grandparents on my mother's side and great-grandparents on my father's.

~S

[Shanti]

Thanks for the links on the reports, I'm going to read them tonight.

~S

[BryonMorrigan]

Side tracking a bit, but it really amazes me how people in the west keep track of their family tree to such long way back. In our case we forget after 3-4 generations. I don't know, it must be better in south india since it has been more stable, but this culture is indeed missing now in India (used to be very important once). I don't think it is common among Indians to think about their family tree or trace back and research out broken links.

I admire this western practice, because it gives much pride and clarity about one's nationality and history. It is a good thing, I think.

Frankly, if not for my lineage being "noble," I'd never be able to go so far back. I like to joke that I use Wikipedia instead of Ancestry.com, because most of my ancestors have entries.

Also, I think a lot of the reason that Westerners, particularly Americans, are so interested in genealogy is due to the lack of a "connection" to the soil. I live in a country that really belongs to the Native Americans against whom some of my fellow countrymen committed genocide. Many Americans, when they look to our recent history of genocide, slavery, and oppression...try to find ancestors that are more "acceptable" to be proud of... That's why you see so many "Proud Irish," or other minority white ethnic groups, rather than people saying, "Boy, am I proud of my English heritage!" The Irish never committed genocide against anyone, or forced them into slavery, so it's much "easier" to be proud of being Irish...

...Though I will say that I am looking forward to one day visiting this castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warwick_Castle), (which my family ruled from 1267 to 1449), so that I can take my kids to see the family name on the gates (http://static.zooomr.com/images/557708_a2c0fc21ff_o.jpg). ;)

[Eastern Mind]

Also, I think a lot of the reason that Westerners, particularly Americans, are so interested in genealogy is due to the lack of a "connection" to the soil.

Vannakkam Bryon et al:

I find this topic interesting only in that I'm not so sure. I haven't really done a lot of study in it. In my personal family there is very little interest. It took an in-law who had an interest in genealogy as a subject to research our family tree, and display a chart at family reunions. Even then people walk past with polite interest towards it, but the fact is no one else cared enough to do anything. So I am not sure how many people are really that keen. Perhaps some other westerners on here can shed some light on it. Who is the odd duck: Bryon, or me?:) Maybe its about 50 -50. I honestly don't know.

Certainly were it not for the Mormons and their extensive record keeping, most of us wouldn't know where to look. The hidden secret there, I believe, is conversion after death, but I'm not sure.

Personally, I prefer the Tamil (at least in Sri Lanka) naming system which discards a the family name completely in 3 generations. For those westerners who don't know this system it goes like this - AB, BC, CD, DE etc. with the single second name being used as the name to go by, and the first name being the father's name, with his first name being his father's name etc. I should mention that for most who have moved to the west, they've adapted the western system, mostly because the teachers, beaurocrats (sp) , and immigration couldn't figure out their system because when asked for a family name, there wasn't one.

One member (a cousin) of my family dug a little once to check if her mother had been scammed researching a family Scottish clan tartan or Coat of Arms, and indeed she had as the cousin turned up 3 different ones. For a research fee of $400, of course any unscrupulous artist 'historian' could come up with something.

Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

namaste Singhi,


I admire this western practice, because it gives much pride and clarity about one's nationality and history. It is a good thing, I think.

You do know that we as in hindus do also keep track of our generations, however, the information is not readily available. Let me explain. When my grandmother on my mom's side passed away (about 25 years ago now), since my mom is the only child, I as her eldest son got to do the kriya karma for my grandmother. I went through all the rituals that one goes through if a parent dies. The last act of this is to take the ashes to hardiwar and actually locate your family prohit. The brahmin (or his family) who has been responsible for performing the last rite actually doing the puja while you drop the ashes in the river. In my case, I had to find the prohit from my mom's side and the way you confirm that he is who he says he is by asking if he can show you the signatures of the last person who came to visit him from your family. I was able to see my father's and my grandmother's (the very grandmother I was going to perform the rites for) signatures in his book. That was from the visit when my mother's father passed away years before and my father and my mother's mother came to do the final rites for him.

The point of this story is that the family history is maintained albiet in a strange place and not easily available but it is there if one goes looking. I was able to look at previous generations of my mom's family side, the people who visited this guy's own great grandparents. Strange eh? Of course, I wasn't smart enough to write down everyone's names nor was in that frame of mind at that time to think about family history.

[BryonMorrigan]

One member (a cousin) of my family dug a little once to check if her mother had been scammed researching a family Scottish clan tartan or Coat of Arms, and indeed she had as the cousin turned up 3 different ones. For a research fee of $400, of course any unscrupulous artist 'historian' could come up with something.

Yeah, I used to own a store selling medieval "Ren wear" stuff and weapons, and we purchased the software program that a lot of those people use to give people "coats of arms." I tried it on myself, using different software, and came up with different "answers" each time...all wrong!

The idea that families have coats of arms is absurd. They were, in 99% of cases, issued to an individual, and not passed down. Each person was usually issued a "variation" on the one of his father. (For example, in my family, they were always some kind of variation of a red shield with a yellow horizontal stripe through the middle.) Furthermore, they were almost never given out to anyone who wasn't "noble," as they usually were issued with knighthood or some other title.

Scottish clans are different, however. If you have the right surname...or can prove lineage...that's often enough to get "in" the clan. Each major clan has "septs" or sub-clans that held fealty to the main clan. All you have to do is show that you're associated with the ruling clan or one of the septs...and there are some awfully "common" names on those sept rolls (http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/septs.htm). (Not that it makes much difference. I'm a member of Clan Wallace through my mother, and I've never gotten anything "out" of it, other than having a cool tartan to wear to Scottish festivals...)

[Eastern Mind]

If you have the right surname...or can prove lineage...that's often enough to get "in" the clan. .

Vannakkam: I think I stepped out of the 'Arthur' clan when I changed my name to Murugan 31 years ago. Incidentally, your name or Morgan is mostly what westerners hear when I introduce myself. Sometimes they ask, "Is that Irish?" I just smile. There was a time when I tried to explain, but its such a ridiculously long story, usually misunderstood, that I just don't bother any more. If someone persists, I go into Dumbhood, (which isn't all that hard for me) and ask them what their name means as its so unusual. (Smith for example)
:)

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

I just realized what thread this conversation was taking place in and I apologize for adding to the deviation.

[satay]

namaskar sir Arthur. :)


Vannakkam: I think I stepped out of the 'Arthur' clan when I changed my name to Murugan 31 years ago.
Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

namaskar sir Arthur. :)

Vannakkam HH Sri Sri Satay: The correct title is 'KING'.

Aum Namasivaya

[satay]

Vannakkam HH Sri Sri Satay: The correct title is 'KING'.

Aum Namasivaya

Oh how I dislike this HH Sri sri sri nonsense in front of someone's name. Don't get me started on that. :)

[charitra]

Vannakkam: I think I stepped out of the 'Arthur' clan when I changed my name to Murugan 31 years ago. Incidentally, your name or Morgan is mostly what westerners hear when I introduce myself. Sometimes they ask, "Is that Irish?" I just smile. There was a time when I tried to explain, but its such a ridiculously long story, usually misunderstood, that I just don't bother any more. If someone persists, I go into Dumbhood, (which isn't all that hard for me) and ask them what their name means as its so unusual. (Smith for example)
:)

Aum Namasivaya

namaste all,

An interesting discussion on family name here. I decided to chime in after reading what Sri Eastern Mind mentioned about Tamil system. That one is just practiced only by Tamils however. In the adjacent Telugu speaking:D Andhra state following a typical family name system is the rule just as in USA. Although the names BEGIN with family name and end with given name. E.g., son of one Mr. Thota Krishna Murthy is Thota Rama Rao and his son is called Thota sivaram. As you can see, dads name doesn’t figure in the name of the offspring, although it is very customary to name the m after grandparents. When a dad takes his child for a school admission in Andhra state, the staff will frown if the family name of parent and kid isn’t identical. I like this system than the Tamil one, because in the latter the fun of tracking back your family tree is nonexistent. Just like Byron was all excited to go to England with his kids with all the anticipation. My niece had met with a girl who had same (her dads) last name at JFK and they both had some excited hour talking about their families.
The one I like most and believe most civilized is the one existing in Iran, it is similar to the western/ Andhra system, however after marriage the wife gets to keep her paternal last name until her death. Just the kids take dads last name. The advantage is that with each marriage/ divorce the women don’t need to keep changing the last name:) . Why should they?
Shanti.

[PARAM]

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Caste is follow to the forefathers and clan; and Varna is the Karma.

My Family know about tree much more

[TatTvamAsi]

After a long time I agree with you on that. ;) While self criticism is not always bad, but in the present case it was dubious and greatly damaging to Hindu interest with no positive aspect.

Self-criticism, when in proper context, is actually beneficial to progress. Hinduism has a self-correcting mechanism built in and that is why debate was encouraged.


I think its another case of corruption which is rabid among Hindus, the HAF executives must have recieved hefty donations from evangelists to publish such a report.

I wouldn't go as far as saying they are working with evangelists; I just think they made a (rather serious) mistake which actually goes against what they (HAF) claim they are representing and fighting for.

[TatTvamAsi]

This campaign is useless and will only bring more negative attention towards Hinduism. The campaign for yoga, however lofty, has also brought a lot of negative attention towards Hinduism from the yoga side. This is only because Aseem Shukla didn't know how to make a good case for himself. He was using terms like "Hinduism's copyright of yoga" which has only raised more suspicion. Aseem Shukla is just not the right person to defend Hinduism, we need someone who is intelligent and knowledgeable like Chanakya Pandit. Aseem Shukla is trained as a surgeon, he has his own biases about Hinduism. He is not trained in Hindu thought. A better defence of the Hindu legacy of yoga is something like this: http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/ (http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/)

I haven't read that article you've linked to yet, but I don't agree with you saying Shukla isn't qualified to stand up for Hindus on the global stage; he is educated, articulate, and is (bookishly) knowledgeable about Hinduism. The simple fact is that there is hardly anyone who will even speak up for Hindus let alone take the cause to such heights.

I do agree though that if there is someone like Chanakya, such a person would be ideal. However, we can only hope that such a person comes sooner rather than later.

Conversely, there are all sorts of turds who think they know something about Hinduism, whether it is Yoga or otherwise, to comment on it. Should the "other side" not be knowledgeable enough about Hinduism in order to "debate"? Unfortunately, that won't happen because anyone can claim anything these days.

I still believe HAF's goal is virtuous, but their method and this report, specifically, is highly detrimental to the Hindus' cause.

[Adhvagat]

I'd like to know more about Chanakya Pandita. History, what he did to unify India and such.

What should I read?

[TatTvamAsi]

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning their history and religion at all, the majority of hindu and muslim intellectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance. Historical facts, like for instance the existence of a proto indo european culture and language or any other truth that is at odds with one or the other fairy tale, makes them feel offended victimized and then foaming at the mouths like any run of the mill mullah.

The two words in bold are oxymorons when it comes to history, philosophy, and cultures of other nations.

Your asinine comments on how "Hindus believe in fairy tales" should be dealt with accordingly by the mods. However, it is pathetic that you have the audacity to call Hindu history a 'fairy tale' while you make no mention of jewish and christian garbage - nonsense that supports incest, genocide, and terrorism along with giving voice to absurdities like "creationism" and talking bushes. :rolleyes: What are those? "Facts", according to you?

This PIE (proto-Indo-European) culture and religion you talk of is a bastard-child of the Aryan Invasion Theory; so-called scholars in the west who want to obfuscate the matter since that fairy tale of a theory (AIT) was debunked so thoroughly, they came up with this alibi to claim that Hinduism and the Vedas came from outside India.

It must be hard to swallow the fact that europeans descended from barbaric hordes (including the Romans). Watching people being eaten alive by animals is not "civilized" by any account. This PIE is more of a distraction than any real scholarship.

If anyone here thinks of themselves as Hindu, there is no doubt that the Vedas, Sanskrit, and Hindu Dharma arose in Aryavarta/Bharatvarsha and spread outward. Nothing "fairy-tale-ish" about that.

Western scholarship is utter garbage; volumes of bilge compiled to make themselves feel better and superior. Such arrogance will not be let off so easily. The same idiots who propounded the PIE nonsense will claim "ancient Greeks" invented mathematics when those bruised turds came to India (Nalanda/Takshashila) to learn from the Indians. Even the "Pythagorean Theorem" isn't from the Greeks yet they would have you believe otherwise.

Western thievery, apart from physical land, gold, and other resources, is through revisionist and completely false historical accounts of other cultures. Their attempts at taking credit for other cultures development and scholarship is well known and is not just limited to India.

That is why they want to separate Hinduism and Yoga; to their limited understanding, Hinduism cannot produce anything good and thus there is "no way" Yoga came from Hinduism or is an integral part of it! And since they like Hatha Yoga, they will claim they also were an integral part in developing it. Wait, you're already doing that! :rolleyes:


Rajiv Malhotra, who has had some good ideas in the past, is now entangled in delusional conspiracy theories and feels victimized by all and everybody, probably he snapped since the time he was trying to whitewash his money grabbing criminal Guru , being a disciple of Nithyananda, while he is doing that, with his other hand he is spitefully attacking stalwarts of Hatha Yoga like Iyengar who has done so much to educate people worldwide about hatha yoga.

Rajiv Malhotra is bringing up some important points and uncovering the devious machinations of western 'scholarship' in America and how it is affecting Indian policy and eventually, Hindu Dharma itself.

Nithyananda was set up by missionary scum (christians). Even Ranjita (the alleged mistress) claimed missionaries were behind this scheme.


The vitriolic atacks on western practioners of Yoga he has been broadcasting to other evil minded people, who in turn started attacking hatha yoga, has not at all been benefical to Hinduism.

And how do you arrive at such an enlightened perspective?


In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west, it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.

Well, I cannot speak for all Hindus and neither should you. My father, and all the males in his extended family, have practiced Hatha Yoga since childhood! My father learnt Yoga from Krishnamacharya himself! Of course, the average Indian, in the past century, has been too busy trying to subsist; one cannot think about enlightenment when the stomach is empty! Strange though that Brahmins were not economically more well off yet they persisted in keeping the traditions alive. Hmm... food for thought..

And, I can't believe Satay hasn't reprimanded you for this diatribe. You are basically saying that westerners (untouchables) brought Hatha Yoga to the forefront and Hindus are taking credit for it! So every time you turn on your computer, make sure you give your respecets to Pingala because he is the one who developed the binary system; without which no computer would have been possible. Wonder how many western "scholars" do that. :rolleyes:


Hatha Yoga became worldwide known and respected , only due to a handfull of people like Iyengar, Shivananda, Krishnamacharya and two or three lesser known people and their dedicated western disciples, that are now attacked by the very same people that always hated Hatha yoga and the "dirty beggars" that practiced it. They despised the Indian practioners back then, when it was rescued almost from oblivion, and now aparently they still hate it.

I agree those three and a few more have popularized Hatha Yoga worldwide, however, I think that (popularization of Hatha Yoga and allowing mlecchas to practice Yoga) is actually bad for Hinduism. Of course, I presume I'd be alone in that viewpoint.


These attacks have been unjustified in the 70ies and they are unjustified now, many westerners have contributed so much to the development of Hatha Yoga. Due to the combined effort of Indian Hatha yogis and western medical practicioners, hatha yoga has become worldwide renowned for its healing powers. Get rid of these raving mullahs please, or they will destroy what is left of hindu culture.

That is absolutely and utterly false. Hatha Yoga is Indian/Hindu any way you put it. This is exactly what I mean. You, and other misinformed people, will try to take credit for something westerners never did. This has been going on all around the world.

Westerners have NEVER developed anything related to Hindu Dharma. Your fairy-tale PIE theory and butter-and-jam theories are useless. In fact, given more freedom, you people will start to claim that the Vedas were written and developed by westerners as well. Thankfully, some Hindus like Rajiv Malhotra, have seen through the lies and obfuscation to save what is left of Hindu Dharma.

[TatTvamAsi]

Is this a Yog thread ?

Good point Param.

This thread has been derailed completely....

[Sahasranama]

I haven't read that article you've linked to yet, but I don't agree with you saying Shukla isn't qualified to stand up for Hindus on the global stage; he is educated, articulate, and is (bookishly) knowledgeable about Hinduism. The simple fact is that there is hardly anyone who will even speak up for Hindus let alone take the cause to such heights.

I do agree though that if there is someone like Chanakya, such a person would be ideal. However, we can only hope that such a person comes sooner rather than later.

Conversely, there are all sorts of turds who think they know something about Hinduism, whether it is Yoga or otherwise, to comment on it. Should the "other side" not be knowledgeable enough about Hinduism in order to "debate"? Unfortunately, that won't happen because anyone can claim anything these days.

I still believe HAF's goal is virtuous, but their method and this report, specifically, is highly detrimental to the Hindus' cause.
That's fine if you disagree about Shukla, what I think of HAF is that they are too focused on the "image" of Hinduism rather than promoting education of Hinduism.

[Sahasranama]

I'd like to know more about Chanakya Pandita. History, what he did to unify India and such.

What should I read?

There is a DVD series made of Chanakya's life and there's also an Amar Chitra Katha (children's comic book). Of course, this is not where a real historian would look as a primairy source, but I found those sources to be valuable.

[TatTvamAsi]

That's fine if you disagree about Shukla, what I think of HAF is that they are too focused on the "image" of Hinduism rather than promoting education of Hinduism.

I concur. HAF should do more about educating Hindu-Americans on Hinduism and providing channels for them to dive more deeply into the subject (in schools/universities) etc.

[charitra]

Good point Param.

This thread has been derailed completely....

namaste all,
alright then, i will put my money on HAF. Its not possible for me to do it anyother way, this said article may or may not be in the best interest of the hindus, but then caste is the most misunderstood practice anyways.

The founding members of HAF(at least most of them) are BORN and raised here, caucasian hindus have a presence there thankfully:D . We all must strengthen the hands of fine people like Dr.Shukla, an urologist, Suhag Shukla an attorney and Anju Bhargava, an seva activist. Eastern Mindji himself had endorsed another white hndu of HAF recently (sorry I forgot the name) in one of his posts. So its obvious that they are all a bunch of good natured people. Lets not tear them apart whilst they are still in their infancy, whatever they say or do, their intentions are honorable and totally hindu in their conviction......we fight among ourselves, then the abrahamists will win hands down, which translates into more conversions, just to remind ourselves. shanti.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

I comment any effort to unify ourselves in some way, working together as a group to combat ignorance. One of the problems or course is the differences amongst us. HAF, the council of Hindu temples, are basically umbrella organisations from my understanding.

I know from personal experience in building a temple here how difficult it is to get people all on the same page. We received strongly worded letters from Vedantists who want us to bulid a Vedanta-based temple, from hard core Smartas, hard core Shaktites etc. etc. Even amongst ourselves, there was much disagreement. Some meetings lasted until 3 AM in the morning. Discussions went in circles, shouting matches ensued, the size of the temple, how to fundraise, ethics, finding land, what kind of priest to hire, and more. When I look, back I'm totally amazed that Ganesha actually was able to drag us through it.

Therefore, I commend ANYONE who makes any attempt to go about strengthening bonds without throwing in egos, saying, "Yes but this is the way it has to be done,".

Certainly a group is better that an individual (The 'acclaimed statesman' Mr. Zed comes to mind) at representing us.

I admit to not reading or fully understanding all of the issues involved because I'm not directly involved and am perhaps too apathetic towards such things. But certainly in principle I support attempts to educate such as the magazine 'Hinduism Today, which attempts to give a broader understanding of a very multidimensional, complex faith.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Any comments on this article?

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/hinduisms-caste-problem-out-in-the-open/

[Eastern Mind]

Any comments on this article?

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/hinduisms-caste-problem-out-in-the-open/

Vannakkam Sahasranama: Certainly. in my view, the writer took the standard intellectual tone that he knew more than anyone else. Then from small incidents, he made sweeping generalisations. But that doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong. I didn't get the sense that he was purposefully out Hindu bashing. It seemed he was using it more as an example to point out how many religions don't want to admit or even look at their own faults, as he gave more extreme examples for two other religions. What I drew personally from all this is that as an individual, I need to go stand in the mirror once in a while, and with full intellectual honesty, admit, or discover my faults, and then take steps to correct them. But hey, that's just me.

Aum Namasivaya

[BryonMorrigan]

Vannakkam Sahasranama: Certainly. in my view, the writer took the standard intellectual tone that he knew more than anyone else. Then from small incidents, he made sweeping generalisations. But that doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong. I didn't get the sense that he was purposefully out Hindu bashing. It seemed he was using it more as an example to point out how many religions don't want to admit or even look at their own faults, as he gave more extreme examples for two other religions. What I drew personally from all this is that as an individual, I need to go stand in the mirror once in a while, and with full intellectual honesty, admit, or discover my faults, and then take steps to correct them. But hey, that's just me.

Aum Namasivaya

Well, it IS Stephen Prothero, the Christian who thinks he's an "expert" in all religions, of course...

[Eastern Mind]

Well, it IS Stephen Prothero, the Christian who thinks he's an "expert" in all religions, of course...

Vannakkam Bryon: I didn't know that. I'm just an ignorant bloke plodding along. :)
Aum Namasivaya

[PARAM]

Any comments on this article?

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/hinduisms-caste-problem-out-in-the-open/


That link was not loading

The truth is
Caste comes from Clan and no clan was depressed, today here every caste wants to be called as Dalit to get reservation and other benefits, this is politically made and supported not Dharmik, Dharma believe in Varna based on Karma and not Birth.

[TatTvamAsi]

Any comments on this article?

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/hinduisms-caste-problem-out-in-the-open/

yes, that article is worthless as is its author, stephen prothero. yellow journals such as New York Times, CNN, Time etc. should be boycotted by all Hindus/Indians. They are garbage operated by anti-Hindu mlecchas..

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


That link was not loading

The truth is
Dharma believe in Varna based on Karma and not Birth.

And birth has nothing to do with Karma yes?

Jai Shree Krishna

[TheOne]

But how can you possibly tell which "spiritual level" you were born into? You can't, and those who claim that they can tell are like the person banned a few weeks ago who said that "lighter skinned people" have higher spiritual potential than non white people? I find that preposterous.

[satay]

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