Should we put others before ourselves?

[Onkara]

What is your opinion and experience, should we always put other people and what they need from us before our own needs and requirements?

If yes, to what extent should we give? Without being extreme, should we give 100% of our time and energy or is there a limit we should impose on our giving?

Is the alternative really selfishness?

By always putting others first are we putting God before ourselves and can this be a practical form of karma yoga?

I am considering this from a practical perspective, such as our interaction during our day at work, at school, or with family, or when shopping etc, and not necessarily with people we like or know.

[Arjuni]

Namasté, Onkara,

I do not think that life consists simply of giving or taking, selfishness or selflessness, but rather in finding a balance between them.

Most of the questions we ask ourselves before giving to others are questions grounded in ego. What if someone takes advantage of me, what if I am made a fool of, what if I do not have enough for myself? These questions all reflect either a concern for personal gain (and thus not true giving), or a fear that Beloved will not care for us (which makes us feel alone and separated, though in truth we never are).

Rather than putting others before ourselves, or after, perhaps we may realise that we are all equally deserving of help and attention. It reminds me of those airline booklets that instruct you to "secure your own oxygen mask before helping others." If I am empty, sad, hungry, or otherwise lacking, then my "giving" might be something I do with anger and resentment; it is thus my duty to aid myself as well.

The greatest among us gain help by looking directly to the Supreme; they are nourished by the all-expansive divine love and support, and thus may never feel empty or unable to give! Certainly I have not realised this wonderful truth, but we all glimpse it from time to time, in those moments when we feel expansive, radiant, and thus able to offer assistance with complete joy in doing so.

I think giving is indeed a form of karma yoga, but giving what one is able, rather than sticking to a precise equation of 100% for everyone else/0% to oneself. As we do sādhanā and grow in our closeness to God, so we are able to have more delight and wonder in God, and give without being "depleted" by it. This process shouldn't be forced, however, by reaching to others with a distressed heart slowly emptying out its joy.

I look forward to reading more responses on the subject; you've raised some thought-provoking questions.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

[Sean]

Indeed, alignment with the gunas and the right relationship with the word is that of a combination of give and take. To take is to give, to have is to be had, to possess is to be possessed; but altruism is largely based on a misunderstanding- others who are at fault need to sort their own house out themselves...

As in First Aid, life saving, mountaineering, diving etc, you must put yourself first- or you just foolishly have another casuality...

[Sean]

And Christian morality is based on the aesthetic pleasure of some other fool's suffering and death: the crucifixion is the reality of the significance of your self's establishment in the world over some jerk who didn't get it right...

Best, Sean

[Onkara]

As in First Aid, life saving, mountaineering, diving etc, you must put yourself first- or you just foolishly have another casuality...


And Christian morality is based on the aesthetic pleasure of some other fool's suffering and death:...

Thanks for your input, Sean
A salient point you make is that of the First Aider, who although dedicated to helping, is still considering their own safety. This analogy could be applied spiritually in that we must not forget our goal or dharma. A similar idea is that to save others we must have first saved ourselves. So, is that which stops us from putting others first related to our feeling that we need something ourselves first?

I can see the comparative point with Christianity. The death of Jesus can be understood in relation to the New Covenant, something which does not affect us. As we are not practicising Christianity, I am grateful for your input on Sananata Dharma specifically please :o

[Onkara]

Namasté, Onkara,

I do not think that life consists simply of giving or taking, selfishness or selflessness, but rather in finding a balance between them.

Most of the questions we ask ourselves before giving to others are questions grounded in ego. What if someone takes advantage of me, what if I am made a fool of, what if I do not have enough for myself? These questions all reflect either a concern for personal gain (and thus not true giving), or a fear that Beloved will not care for us (which makes us feel alone and separated, though in truth we never are).

Rather than putting others before ourselves, or after, perhaps we may realise that we are all equally deserving of help and attention. It reminds me of those airline booklets that instruct you to "secure your own oxygen mask before helping others." If I am empty, sad, hungry, or otherwise lacking, then my "giving" might be something I do with anger and resentment; it is thus my duty to aid myself as well.

The greatest among us gain help by looking directly to the Supreme; they are nourished by the all-expansive divine love and support, and thus may never feel empty or unable to give! Certainly I have not realised this wonderful truth, but we all glimpse it from time to time, in those moments when we feel expansive, radiant, and thus able to offer assistance with complete joy in doing so.

I think giving is indeed a form of karma yoga, but giving what one is able, rather than sticking to a precise equation of 100% for everyone else/0% to oneself. As we do sādhanā and grow in our closeness to God, so we are able to have more delight and wonder in God, and give without being "depleted" by it. This process shouldn't be forced, however, by reaching to others with a distressed heart slowly emptying out its joy.

I look forward to reading more responses on the subject; you've raised some thought-provoking questions.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Thank you, Indraneela!
That is an excellent point you make on the feeling that we cannot give easily if we feel there is not enough for ourselves. I have touched on this point too in my reply to Sean, who makes a good example of a First aider, whom we might say needs to have enough in order to help. Similiar to the oxygen mask :)

With the idea of people taking advantage, does it matter if people do take advantage?

I liked you point that we get what we need through God. You mention too, divine love and realising the truth. I don't personally think it comes in glimpses, but rather that it is there all the time, eternal and timeless, as is the Lord. What happens is that we 'foget' under the persuasion of maya and prakriti. This would imply that once we see the truth, we know it and all that appears to be lacking is conviction to remain with the divine truth. Logically then is all that we need to remain with the divine truth, and helping others will come naturally, and not forced, as you say?

I also look forward to others input, and more from you too if it appeals! :)

[Sean]

Hi, you raise complex questions and what you'll find, to remind you, is that theoretical deliberation is unrelated to ethical response in the moment.

Transcend to reality and act.

[NayaSurya]

As a parent of 8 I am the last to eat, the last to have new clothes, the last to sleep. Though this is where my own family is concerned it does carry over to every aspect of my being. I can not go into the things which are done constantly as I do not want anyone to know about these but Shiva and the Devas. But, every being here is my mother, father, and child. Every being here is a web cam and microphone to Beloved Shiva...everytime I look into the eyes of another I see this immediately. I get very choked up just knowing Beloved is all around me in every single precious manifested being. I am compelled by this to be of service.

Many years ago I was lamenting over the starving, abused, and suffering children of the world. Every day I cried my heart so full of sadness. My own children could not understand this sadness and it disturbed them to see me weep at the television images. I prayed for many many days and then something happened. I was struck upside the head and a voice so clear from my heart came forth and said...."The world is full of ignorance and suffering but you are in no condition to help...in order to help you must work on yourself. Work on yourself."

See I had these 8 and I was not tending to the job I had before me...to be the best me I could be. I could not fix things when I was so broken myself. Over a decade passes and the lesson never forgotten.

You can help if you are suffering or broken, and I have. But the best position to help others from is the position so solid that even when they cheat or scam you...you are unmoved.

I have been cheated, taken advantage of...but I am now unmoved by this as sometimes to help means you will despite those chances...it is only human nature to take what you can when in such desperate and dire need.

I love the oxygen mask story as it truly speaks of this "condition to give". In order to help another with their mask you have to have oxygen or you will simply pass out before you can even lift a hand.

Also there is a problem, that when helping becomes something which enables another to not complete their own learning or task.

I was a MOD in an MMORPG for years as well as an ingame "Angel" and this situation continued to put me at odds with this understanding. Often a very young person...13-16 would want me to kill things off for them and take them to levels far too high for them to normally survive. By doing this...these beings never were able to properly learn the game...and at some point you just have to let these beings die and go to an appropriate level for their character. This goes into my post about knowing when to help another and when to not. Sometimes we do more harm than good when we try to "help"...it actually is not help at all.

Another example of this came recently when I was helping my son level his character in another MMORPG. I dropped my top level down to his meager level to help him train up his level. Suddenly, this very high level person came into the low level area...and began killing all the monsters to "Help". Well they truly thought they were helping...but how can he level if you just keep killing the monsters we need to level?

This is so so true in everyday life. If you watch a show such as Intervention...you will almost always see one person addicted and another enabling...or even several enabling.

I suppose the ability to truly help is almost always accompanied by the wisdom to know when you should, and when for the sake of that Beloved Portion...you should leave them to their lesson/task and not disturb the learning/growth. It's hard to watch...especially when your own child is the one with the lesson.

[Onkara]

Hi, you raise complex questions and what you'll find, to remind you, is that theoretical deliberation is unrelated to ethical response in the moment.

Transcend to reality and act.

You are correct, Sean :)
What I hope from all this theorising is that "I can let go" and react better when the moment arises.

That might sound theoretical, and this might sound like a justification, but thought is repetitive and regurgitated by the mind, so pre-meditative thought and correct thinking now contributes to better reactive responses.

[NayaSurya]

Yes, just as a lifeguard trains thousands of hours to have quick thoughtful responses when faced with a drowning person...it is wise to think out our position in this case.

A very good topic Snip!

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Onkara: Giving is a difficult slippery slope. By that I mean, the intellect/ego fear mechanism can come up with a ton of reasons not to give. I'll try not to have this turn into some essay.

"He/she doesn't deserve it," is one. This is what the ego can say about homeless people, for example. "It's their karma', or 'all homeless people are lazy' are in the same line. The fact of the matter is that each individual's situation on the street is different. It's quite in your face sometimes when the question of professional begging arises. Professional begging? Quite the oxymoron.

As Indraneela has pointed out, its quite obvious we shouldn't always put others first. I think whomever stated that was just making another point about the value of giving. In the end, I think we know, from the inside, if we dig deep enough, what we ourselves are capable of, and that is where the answers lie.

Aum Namasivaya

[Onkara]

Vannakkam Onkara: Giving is a difficult slippery slope. By that I mean, the intellect/ego fear mechanism can come up with a ton of reasons not to give. I'll try not to have this turn into some essay.

"He/she doesn't deserve it," is one. This is what the ego can say about homeless people, for example. "It's their karma', or 'all homeless people are lazy' are in the same line. The fact of the matter is that each individual's situation on the street is different. It's quite in your face sometimes when the question of professional begging arises. Professional begging? Quite the oxymoron.

As Indraneela has pointed out, its quite obvious we shouldn't always put others first. I think whomever stated that was just making another point about the value of giving. In the end, I think we know, from the inside, if we dig deep enough, what we ourselves are capable of, and that is where the answers lie.

Aum Namasivaya

Vannakkam EM
You hit the nail on the head it is the ego that we are up against it appears. The thoughts are the ego. Would you say the answer is to look to God for pupose and see others as containing Him (or words to that affect)?

[Onkara]

...

You can help if you are suffering or broken, and I have. But the best position to help others from is the position so solid that even when they cheat or scam you...you are unmoved.

I have been cheated, taken advantage of...but I am now unmoved by this as sometimes to help means you will despite those chances...it is only human nature to take what you can when in such desperate and dire need.

I love the oxygen mask story as it truly speaks of this "condition to give". In order to help another with their mask you have to have oxygen or you will simply pass out before you can even lift a hand.

Also there is a problem, that when helping becomes something which enables another to not complete their own learning or task.

....

Another example of this came recently when I was helping my son level his character in another MMORPG. I dropped my top level down to his meager level to help him train up his level. Suddenly, this very high level person came into the low level area...and began killing all the monsters to "Help". Well they truly thought they were helping...but how can he level if you just keep killing the monsters we need to level?

This is so so true in everyday life. If you watch a show such as Intervention...you will almost always see one person addicted and another enabling...or even several enabling.

I suppose the ability to truly help is almost always accompanied by the wisdom to know when you should, and when for the sake of that Beloved Portion...you should leave them to their lesson/task and not disturb the learning/growth. It's hard to watch...especially when your own child is the one with the lesson.

Namasté NayaSurya
You seem to pull on so much life experience, you advice is always practical, thank you :)

A couple of points which appealed to me is that we should remain unmoved even when others take advantage of us. That takes a lot of strength and resolve, doesn't it? Where to get that strength and confidence from?

You point of lettings others learn and knowing when and how to help is fundamental. Perhaps it is best to see others as not needing our help specifically, but rather waiting for the moment to arise (my point follows from Sean's that we need to transcend theory and act). But also based on your point it seems that we all have room to help ourselves and learn, no matter how young or how much we might be loved and that we should treat others as being adequate as they are?

If we see others as adequate then are we really giving, aren't we just interacting, and if so then there is no need to question our loss or gain from dealing with others?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam EM
You hit the nail on the head it is the ego that we are up against it appears. The thoughts are the ego. Would you say the answer is to look to God for pupose and see others as containing Him (or words to that affect)?

Vannakkam Onkara: Although giving has been discussed at length here before, I think its always beneficial to bring it up again. As far as looking to God, yes. But where God is varies for each of us. Some need to look at scripture, some may beseech, a deity in a temple, whilst others can go directly to God within (perhaps conscience is the word). In my humble opinion, it boils down to the latter. But finding that truth is not easy.

There was a time when I was privy to information about giving to our temple (the one where I live) for example. We board members made a commitment (from the top down idea) in the beginning. Several people spoke of a flat rate (if I recall it was a suggestion that we all donate a minimum of $25 per month to get the ball rolling) I spoke against it because of the disparity of wealth within the board itself. One person's $10 donation could be far more than another's $5000 if its considered as part of one's ability to give. So its very much an individual matter. This is also true of who to give to. For example, most of my giving goes to building temples for future generations, because that just reflects my personal bhaktar take on life. Others would criticize my take based on the idea that a poverty stricken person needs it more. My rationalisation is that souls are born and reborn for a solitary purpose: moksha, and that keeping powerful energy alive through temples is a greater need for that purpose than food in a single life. Of course, each individual, based on what they've seen in their lives, has a different take. Most likely those who give to medical research, be it cancer, MS, heart disease, CF, Alzheimer's etc, are most likely to give to the particular charity that a family member or close friend suffered from.

Thanks for your kind words. Hopefully threads like this can help people on HDF to entertain more ideas towards charity. Various scriptures suggest 10% or even one sixth of one's income should be put to charitable causes.

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

A couple of points which appealed to me is that we should remain unmoved even when others take advantage of us. That takes a lot of strength and resolve, doesn't it? Where to get that strength and confidence from?

Whatever may befall me...at any given moment is meant to happen and is a part of a divine plan to teach me. Being that my Guru is Beloved Brahma, Beloved Vishnu, and Beloved Shiva...I have to be careful and observe things...as I do not have some Blessed portion down here to explain it all out for me. To help me understand, I ask..."What is my lesson, what is the portion which I own of this event?"

For me the strength comes from the fact that all the while these things are happening around me, the being inside is not harmed...it is not hurting...it can never be moved from its location at Beloved Shiva's Feet.





If we see others as adequate then are we really giving, aren't we just interacting, and if so then there is no need to question our loss or gain from dealing with others?

So so true! I spent a great portion of my life not understanding this. :p It's very arrogant for me to run around thinking everyone needs or even wants to be helped along?

We are all at the point and position which we are meant to be...in this space everyone is exactly adequate, perfectly seated within their own lessons and level. As with all Beings, we impact them for better or worse. When you begin to accept every single portion as perfectly designed, the impact can be very good.

So I bump into you, and you will bump into me...and we both will smile knowing that it was meant to be...:p

In that interaction we both can learn and grow!<3

[Onkara]

(cut for space)
Aum Namasivaya

Vannakkam EM ji
On a friendly note, I don't wish anyone to reproduce any ideas covered in threads. I hope at the very least by repeating questions, or seeing questions repeat each year, it serves as some sort of Sadhana or repetitive practice to those who have been here longest :)

In fact it was interesting to see this thread take shape on the topic of "giving", although I think you are right and it is about giving and taking, my initial purpose in mind was to explore more how letting others demand our time can be considered karma yoga or dharmic. Or in other words by putting others before us, are we in some way paying respect to the Lord and is this a better way to live practically than trying to control our time and resources for our own deadlines and needs. If we put others first, in the name of the Lord, do we do good.

Following on from your second example in which you raise the goal of moksha. A question comes to mind that if we consider the purpose of life to be moksha, then I think the answer is that putting others first is only helpful if it serves that purpose?

[Onkara]

Whatever may befall me...at any given moment is meant to happen and is a part of a divine plan to teach me. Being that my Guru is Beloved Brahma, Beloved Vishnu, and Beloved Shiva...I have to be careful and observe things...as I do not have some Blessed portion down here to explain it all out for me. To help me understand, I ask..."What is my lesson, what is the portion which I own of this event?"

For me the strength comes from the fact that all the while these things are happening around me, the being inside is not harmed...it is not hurting...it can never be moved from its location at Beloved Shiva's Feet.


So so true! I spent a great portion of my life not understanding this. :p It's very arrogant for me to run around thinking everyone needs or even wants to be helped along?

We are all at the point and position which we are meant to be...in this space everyone is exactly adequate, perfectly seated within their own lessons and level. As with all Beings, we impact them for better or worse. When you begin to accept every single portion as perfectly designed, the impact can be very good.

So I bump into you, and you will bump into me...and we both will smile knowing that it was meant to be...:p

In that interaction we both can learn and grow!<3

Thanks again NayaSurya ji
Lets hope we don't bump too hard :)
You point about finding strength is wonderful. Can we simply choose to submit to Lord Shiva, or is there more to it than that? Is everything His divine will?

[NayaSurya]

"Can we simply choose to submit to Lord Shiva, or is there more to it than that? Is everything His divine will?"



From my limited life experience, I would say almost every profound lesson was divine will...maybe even all of them and I have just not gotten the message well enough about those things yet.:p

We can go backward upon our experiences, with patience and see the wheels of karma turning.

For example...*this is abbreviated as it is a loong story*

I believe I must have truly betrayed my husband in our past life.

I was born into abuse. My father cheated on my mother and abandoned our family. My mother remarried and carried out an illicit affair with which she forced her children to keep a secret.

By the time I was 20 I was married to the worst sort of cheater...he blatantly cheated on me hundreds of times over the course of a decade.

The moment came when a mutual friend of his came to the house one night...a very handsome man. He told me I was beautiful, the kindest most wonderful person he had ever known...and then he told me he loved me and wanted to take me away from the abuse. I made him leave, my words to him went something like..."I'm not my Mother..." He was confused, but to me it made perfect sense.

There came a time when I sat down and said alloud...."Gosh cheating really hurts everyone." It was an aha! moment for me...that I would never ever do that to a person. At this point the karma was wholly burned out and this husband went away...

From the top of this lil hill I am on I can see this lesson fully played out. I can see how Shiva protected me as a child, as an adult and also my children...and I can see the test which played out that night and the victory of this portion over the animal vessel.

It's not to say that things aren't randomly happening, but those things are far less profound for me and so I tend to forget them easier.:p

Have you also had such moments?

[Eastern Mind]

to explore more how letting others demand our time can be considered karma yoga or dharmic. Or in other words by putting others before us, are we in some way paying respect to the Lord and is this a better way to live practically than trying to control our time and resources for our own deadlines and needs. If we put others first, in the name of the Lord, do we do good.

Following on from your second example in which you raise the goal of moksha. A question comes to mind that if we consider the purpose of life to be moksha, then I think the answer is that putting others first is only helpful if it serves that purpose?

Vannakkam Onkara: I find the giving of time interesting as I think sometimes we think only of money. (If truth be told, I spend little time analyzing the whys of giving ... I'd prefer not to think about it much.)

Regarding, moksha as the goal, I see everything in life as a progression towards that inevitable end, even the idiotic selfish times when we knew better, for those too are valuable lessons we need. So charity is not just for that, its just part and parcel of duty no matter where we are in the stage of life.

Aum Namasivaya

[Onkara]

Have you also had such moments?

Namasté NayaSurya
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Fortunately I have not had such difficult moments in my life as your self, but permit me to say that despite your difficulties you come across with much love to share. :)

As for moments where life seems to have been guided or destined, then I would say yes, at times my 'destiny' became so conscious that I felt implied to act. Looking back I am still surprised and feel that we learn from everything we do and have less choice than we once thought. :)

[Onkara]

Thank you Eastern Mind :)
I feel satisfied with the answers I have received above.