Hindus speaking at Pagan Convention

[BryonMorrigan]

http://www.hafsite.org/Hindu_Americans_Promote_Pluralism_PantheaCon_2011

At the Pagan "PantheaCon" convention recently, the Hindu American Foundation sent a delegation to discuss issues with the Pagans.

Here is an audio presentation which includes some of these speakers: http://www.thorncoyle.com/podcasts/ElementalCastings_40_Pcon_Panel_Hindu_030811.m4a

At 6:00, Easan Katir begins with a prayer and then a discussion on Pluralism, and the connections between European Paganism and Hinduism, mostly in ancient history.

At 12:45, he is succeeded by Dr. Mihir Meghani, and then there are presentations by a couple different Pagan speakers, and some dialogue between the Hindus and Pagans.

Any thoughts?

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Bryon:

I think it was a good example of interfaith dialogue where minorities working together can have more impact than working alone. The problem is that the people who need to attend to this the most simply don't. Here in the west there are all kinds of small by population faiths that can be exemplars in dialogue and tolerance. I'm glad to see such co-operation, but still see the problem with "My way is the Only way' thinking. I have no idea how one can break into that.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

I listened to the whole thing, it's very interesting to hear about the pagan and Hindu conversation and possible cooperation. I am all for religious pluralism, but not for radical universalism where concepts like we are all the same and all paths lead to the same goal are shoved down people's throat. In the beginning they talked a little about this idea which is spread by Hindu parents. Later in the convention in my opinion, things started to get polically correct/ diplomatic when an audience member asked what about those Christians who try to live by the word of Jesus? Here they really needed to talk about how Christianity is fundamentally against pluralism and religious tolerance. It's useless to say that there are good Christians and bad Christians, there are good and bad people everywhere. We need to make clear that the bad Christians are in fact motivated by the words of the bible and their sampradaya of Churches. They talked about providing liberal reinterpretations of the Bible and the Koran, this is just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring what the Abrahamic religions are really about. The violence and disrespect against pagans, heathens and kafirs are inherit traits of the abrahamic religions, not misinterpretations. This is not demonising Christianity, but just calling a spade a spade.

[Eastern Mind]

Later in the convention in my opinion, things started to get a little polically correct/ diplomatic when an audience member asked what about those Christians who try to live by the word of Jesus? Here they really needed to talk about how Christianity is fundamentally against pluralism and religious tolerance.

Vannakkam Sahasranama: Which is why its so very difficult. If you say what you really think, the Christian just heads to the door, and makes a proclamation that there is no tolerance of their right to be intolerant, or some silly thing. At least the person was in attendance. The real fundamentalists never go to such places or events for they would be going to the halls of the devil, in their opinion. When it gets to that point where one side can't listen there just is no dialogue. Thank goodness we have great tolerant religions like ours, so those of us who can see beyond some narrow box have a place to go.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

Yes, that's the whole purpose of diplomacy, but I was looking for more straight forward answers.

Q~ What about those Christians who try to follow the words of Jesus? Why are they being demonised?

A~ Have you read the supposed words of Jesus in the Bible, they are the cause of all these problems of evangelism, missionaries and violence and hatred against Pagans/Hindus.

It's not really our job to turn all Christians into liberals, even though the liberal Christians are not our enemy. Christians can always use as an excuse that those are the bad apples in the tree while ignoring what's fundamentally wrong with Christianity itself. Our strongest weapon against evangelism is to point out that Christianity is fundamentally flawed, pointing out the bad apples in the tree is fighting the symptoms instead of attacking the cause of the disease.

[sanjaya]

So I'm all for tolerating everyone. But am I the only one here who is disturbed by the idea of taking made-up religions like paganism seriously? My problem here is that in very recent times (i.e. the last fifty years or so) some Westerners have decided that they want a spirituality other than Christianity, and they've created their own. This to me is about as legitimate as the people who try to combine Hinduism and Christianity, whom we denounce on this very forum. I'm certainly in favor of a live and let live approach, and I'm not out to criticize these people for doing what they want. But I wouldn't personally take their "faith" as a serious religion.

[BryonMorrigan]

So I'm all for tolerating everyone. But am I the only one here who is disturbed by the idea of taking made-up religions like paganism seriously? My problem here is that in very recent times (i.e. the last fifty years or so) some Westerners have decided that they want a spirituality other than Christianity, and they've created their own. This to me is about as legitimate as the people who try to combine Hinduism and Christianity, whom we denounce on this very forum. I'm certainly in favor of a live and let live approach, and I'm not out to criticize these people for doing what they want. But I wouldn't personally take their "faith" as a serious religion.

It depends on what you are referring to as "made up." There are many different "types" of "Paganism," encompassing everything from the more "made up" flavors, like Wicca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca)...to the "Reconstructionists," like Greek Polytheists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Polytheistic_Reconstructionism), Asatruars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asatru), and practitioners of the Religio Romana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_religion)...all of which are based on the ancient texts and religious practices of "real" belief systems.

I certainly feel a little embarrassed by being associated with some of the "fruitier" elements of modern Paganism...but there are also many serious people and academics involved with it...though they are largely associated with the Reconstructionist elements.

[sanjaya]

It depends on what you are referring to as "made up." There are many different "types" of "Paganism," encompassing everything from the more "made up" flavors, like Wicca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca)...to the "Reconstructionists," like Greek Polytheists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Polytheistic_Reconstructionism), Asatruars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asatru), and practitioners of the Religio Romana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_religion)...all of which are based on the ancient texts and religious practices of "real" belief systems.

I certainly feel a little embarrassed by being associated with some of the "fruitier" elements of modern Paganism...but there are also many serious people and academics involved with it...though they are largely associated with the Reconstructionist elements.

You're right; I should clarify what I mean a bit.

So on the topic of Wicca, to me it seems patently obvious that the religion exists solely to be the "un-Christianity" for Westerners. But the religion finds its origins in the twentieth century. I'm sure it's based on some ancient European tradition of some sort, but you won't find pre-Christian Europeans who practiced Wicca. The problem for me here is the arbitrariness of the whole thing. What's to stop anyone from inventing a belief system, mixing in something from other faiths, and calling it a new religion? If we hold to any notion of absolute truth, then we can't believe that such religions have any real spiritual value. Hence why I believe that Wicca should be taken as childish play rather than a real religion.

Now as for the Greek polytheists, I certainly wouldn't classify ancient Greek spirituality as an invented religion. That said, the spirituality of the ancient Greeks died out a long time ago. The culture is gone, and there's a limit to how well their spirituality can be replicated by simply reading literature from classical Greece. Hinduism has continuously existed from ancient times until the present; we have an established religious culture and we know how to perform Hindu rituals properly. I'm fairly certain that any worship of Greek gods which exists today would be alien to a classical Greek. That's why I think there's no real value in pretending that one is a worshiper of Greek gods.

In any case, I'm certainly willing to tolerate these guys and let them worship whatever or however they like. But I don't personally believe that what they're doing has any spiritual value, or that they are communicating with God via their ridiculous practices.

[Sahasranama]

I definitely admire the western pagans for reconstructing their spiritual heritage and positioning themselves against Christianity. Hindus can learn from this, because the Indian reformers and modern saints have done the exact opposite and have tried to conform to Christian and Muslim standards. Whether it's made up or not, of course I believe in the truth of Hinduism, but even the other religions can have some value to them. The opening prayer for example sounded a lot like a Hindu prayer. In abstact notions they may come close to Hinduism, but the concrete aspects of their religions are different. I respect these differences and I do not trivialize them as being less important than the abstract notions which is what universalists do.

[Adhvagat]

Wise words everyone.

[Eastern Mind]

What's to stop anyone from inventing a belief system, mixing in something from other faiths, and calling it a new religion?

Vannakkam Sanjaya: Nothing is stopping anyone. This happens all the time. But the true test is time. Most of the so called 'established' religions have somehow managed to endure for awhile. Others established around cult figures usually die off in the first generation, or with the passing of the leader.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

You're right; I should clarify what I mean a bit.

So on the topic of Wicca, to me it seems patently obvious that the religion exists solely to be the "un-Christianity" for Westerners. But the religion finds its origins in the twentieth century. I'm sure it's based on some ancient European tradition of some sort, but you won't find pre-Christian Europeans who practiced Wicca. The problem for me here is the arbitrariness of the whole thing. What's to stop anyone from inventing a belief system, mixing in something from other faiths, and calling it a new religion? If we hold to any notion of absolute truth, then we can't believe that such religions have any real spiritual value. Hence why I believe that Wicca should be taken as childish play rather than a real religion.

Now as for the Greek polytheists, I certainly wouldn't classify ancient Greek spirituality as an invented religion. That said, the spirituality of the ancient Greeks died out a long time ago. The culture is gone, and there's a limit to how well their spirituality can be replicated by simply reading literature from classical Greece. Hinduism has continuously existed from ancient times until the present; we have an established religious culture and we know how to perform Hindu rituals properly. I'm fairly certain that any worship of Greek gods which exists today would be alien to a classical Greek. That's why I think there's no real value in pretending that one is a worshiper of Greek gods.

In any case, I'm certainly willing to tolerate these guys and let them worship whatever or however they like. But I don't personally believe that what they're doing has any spiritual value, or that they are communicating with God via their ridiculous practices.

Namaste Sanjaya,

I see what you're saying for the most part, but I think differently. I agree that a lot of the religions like Wicca and other "neo-pagan" religions pretty much serve largely just to be the "un-Christianity" for westerners as you say.

But recently I have been studying the ancient pagan religions of Europe, like the ones that Bryon referred to (he and I have actually discussed this via PM). Something that I find fascinating is that a lot of the beliefs and practices of those ancient religions and cultures were strikingly similar to Hinduism. This makes perfect sense according to the "Out of India Theory", which is a much more reasonable and well-supported counter to the garbage AIT. People from the ancient Vedic society migrated out of India and settled in Europe, and the religious practices naturally took on regional differences over the years. But it's still recognizable how many of the beliefs and practices, as well as deities, of the ancient European religions and the ancient Vedic religion are very similar.

You're right in your example about the Greek polytheists, how the ancient Greek culture and spirituality are largely gone. But remember that their culture and spirituality were replaced (largely unwillingly) by Christianity, which IMHO is a step backward. I share Sahasranama's view that it's highly admirable for the people today who are going back to that culture and spirituality instead of Christianity.

One of my closest friends actually practiced ancient Celtic polytheism for about a year, although this was before I knew him. He did it largely because that was the religion of his ancestors before they were converted to Christianity. But he has since become a Catholic.

Jai Sri Ram

[BryonMorrigan]

Interestingly enough, the well-respected British scholar and Commissioner of English Heritage, Dr. Ronald Hutton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Hutton), has recently uncovered evidence of an "unbroken chain" of underground pre-Christian Druid religion lasting well into the 21st Century in England, which is documented in some of his recent books on the history of Druids and others like "Witches, Druids, and King Arthur."

This is of particular importance since Hutton was the man who wrote the book proving that Wicca had no such "chain" to the past ("Triumph of the Moon"). Hutton has an interesting "take" on the subject, as he was born in post-Independence India, and raised as a "Pagan," but doesn't consider himself particularly "religious," and prefers to study religions from an academic perspective. He gained the enmity of Wiccans and Neo-Pagans by writing "Triumph of the Moon," but then has become a "hero" to modern Druids with his later works.

It's all fascinating stuff, and many of the "underground" practices that have survived over a thousand years of Christian oppression are quite surprising. Of course, this shouldn't be taken as an "endorsement" of many of the practices of modern Neo-Pagans...particularly Wiccans...whose rituals come largely from those of Jewish and Christian "Wizards" of the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period.

As I've mentioned previously, a lot of the Druid organizations, particularly like the ADF, have begun studying the Vedas in an attempt to bring their theology and practices back to their original status. I personally don't see the need to hold on to the "European" elements, when the Hindu religion is still vibrant and here with a genuine, un-contested link back into pre-history...but I can understand how many Westerners have difficulty "letting go" of their ancestral heritage and embracing Sanatana Dharma...especially since Christians have done such a great job of denigrating Hinduism in the minds of many Westerners.

But the fact is...it will happen. It's already happening. Religions like Christianity and Islam can only maintain a majority in a vacuum. They require coercion and the lack of an "alternative" in order to maintain their majority status. With the availability of the Internet, knowledge that was difficult to obtain in the past is now readily available.

Now you've got celebrities in the West, like Julia Roberts and Russell Brand, openly declaring themselves "Hindus." The key issue now is to ensure that Sanatana Dharma is not "watered down" or misinterpreted by those who don't take it seriously. There is a real opportunity for Hindus, particularly those of Indian heritage, to assert themselves as leaders and become the "next" Vivekananda or Ramakrishna.

/soapbox

[BryonMorrigan]

who is 'easan katir'?

I believe that Eastern Mind said that he knows him, or has known him in the past. I could be wrong, but I think he is one of the founders of the Hindu American Foundation. Since the convention was aimed primarily at Western "Pagans," (since it's a Christian pejorative, I prefer to wrap it in quotes...) I can see why they might have chosen him to speak first...as kind of a gradual "introduction" to the other Hindu speakers. Besides, a lot of what he spoke about was European history, right? Also, I don't know if the audio that I posted was the first/only time that the Hindu delegation spoke.

As far as Hindu-"Pagan" relations, I've noticed recently that there have been instances of lawsuits where "Pagans" have been assisted by other minority-religion groups, including the HAF, Anti-Defamation League (Jews), and others. Most recently, I noticed this in the Patrick McCollum case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_McCollum). The McCollum case is important, because pseudo-historian David Barton's WallBuilders Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallbuilders) (supported by Right-Wing Christian personality Glenn Beck) is trying to use the lawsuit to "prove" that Freedom of Religion in America only applies to the different "Biblical Monotheism." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallbuilders) (I'm serious...and they even have Supreme Court Justice Scalia on their side!)

It might be an attempt by the HAF to gain as much "clout" as organizations like the ADL. Even though the ADL is essentially a Jewish Rights organization, they have positioned themselves as a Civil Rights group. People fear being scolded by the ADL...but nobody really cares as much if the HAF denounces you. Who knows? Maybe I'm being too cynical as to their motives.

Regardless, I understand the reservations. There are a lot of "kooks" in the modern "Pagan" movement...but there are also a lot of good people there as well.

[sm78]

The problem for me here is the arbitrariness of the whole thing. What's to stop anyone from inventing a belief system, mixing in something from other faiths, and calling it a new religion?

You are right, but what's so specially wrong about this phenominan when it is done in 20th century?? Most religions were born by the process you describe, may be in 2nd century AD, 6th century AD or 16th century AD. India is also full of sampradayas centured around arbitary personalities and mixing-matching of various systems.

I think one should evaluate a religious system solely on the basis of its doctrinal consistency, its ability to explain and eradicate the human suffering and other conditionings, and finally the behaviour of its true followers. Either this or pure blind faith.

But historicity is no measurement criterion of religious authenticity. It is used a tool of church to conceal their two thousand year old hoax and redicule much more genuine systems. Don't follow the suite just because you believe Hinduism is immune to such criticism being commonly believed to be the oldest.

If wiccan inspiration and experience is genuine, it may well be much more genuine religion than ancient hoaxes to which present population is still paying their taxes.

[Eastern Mind]

Secondly, who is 'easan katir'? Mihir Meghani is an energetic fellow; I met him at an event last year and he seems to be fully dedicated to the Hindu cause.

Hopefully this meeting will help Hindus.

Vannakkam TTA: Katir is a name for Murugan. Its found in this list. http://www.bachpan.com/Names-of-Lord-Murugan.aspx

Easan is an adoptive like me, and has been practising for over 40 years compared to my 35 or so. I know him quite well, as we share the same sampradaya and teachings.

Aum Namasivaya

[NayaSurya]

Christian children come into my home and pace in front of Beloved Krishna and Shiva. I offer them a seat which they refuse. These are the friends of my children...though I do not think them a friend for their behavior. For in the school ...I am know as an "Idol" worshipper. Came here to HDF for my first true interaction with other Hindu to find that I was no more accepted by many. But if you truly know that each person is like a camera with live feed to Isvara then even those eyes who seem to hate you so much, are Beloved. In that spirit each one of you is precious beyond words.

So when I see the words about the billions of individuals often lumped into the word "West" I retreat from that portion and love from the distance. Words go undefended as I have seen more because I learned that to disturb a portion that has this perspective will only be unsettled by anything you would try to say.

What I have began to understand over these past three years is that I was placed in hell upon my birth. I am locked into a place where I can not retreat...I can only move forward. The best anyone could hope for is for Shiva to come and take them out of this wretched place. Death will be the only liberation...as I see no way one will come to drag me out of this hell. The bills are paid, children dressed and fed well...I am loved and love tremendously. But this is all just a pleasant movie playing around me inwhich I have a lead roll. What I want is to fly away set at the feet of Beloved and sing forever and ever...until nothing is left. So I am at your feet, each of you. Every single one. You are the only means I have to serve Beloved in this state.

The state is of no retreat.

Lastnight I sat upon my bed backing down tears as I tried to explain this place to my husband and there was a domestic issue in my bedroom because we were trying to move things around to make it less crowded. I collect antique books and this collection was in four, four foot stacks. The room is an odd shape and our bed is California King. So it only has one location to go...and so this room layout is always dictated by the shape and the things which must go inside of it. We have to work with what we have and there is often very little wiggle room to change it up

Just as life....we have a set position and we have things upon the table to work through. We have to work with what we are given and there is often very little wiggle room to change it up.

I look in the paper, ready to give up the mortgage and fly away...only to realize that the "room" I am in will not allow such a change up.

I look into the eyes of the ones I care for so sincerely and see Beloved looking at me with Great Love and I am struck down in silence.

Be kind to every Beloved Portion...

[alexidiki]

Khairete from an actual Hellenic polytheist. Your discussion raised some important points, so I decided to join in the interest of explaining some of our practices.


It's useless to say that there are good Christians and bad Christians, there are good and bad people everywhere. We need to make clear that the bad Christians are in fact motivated by the words of the bible and their sampradaya of Churches.

I wholly agree with you. Christianity is, by nature, an exclusivist, One True Way religion that demonizes other religious traditions. It's also the biggest cultural appropriation of Judaism ever. However, I have friends and family who are Christian. Most of them are liberal Christians. Many Western "pagans" (ugh, I hate that word!) are in the same position. Not all of us want to sever ties with our families and friends, so we are forced to weaken our language so we don't alienate them. On the other hand, these Christians tend to engage in microaggressions. We just can't win.

However, we support Sanatana Dharma’s efforts against predatory proselytizing. One of the things about being a Western polytheist is that we're working to rebuild something that Christianity and Islam torched and twisted for their own use. You still have a mostly intact system.

We can't do anything about what happened in Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Near East following the ascent of Christianity. However, we can take our anger and frustration and use it to support something others can still fight for. We can use it to fight for our own rights today.

I think the relationship between Westerners and the HAF is a very good thing, and I look forward to hearing more about it. :D


Now as for the Greek polytheists, I certainly wouldn't classify ancient Greek spirituality as an invented religion. That said, the spirituality of the ancient Greeks died out a long time ago. The culture is gone, and there's a limit to how well their spirituality can be replicated by simply reading literature from classical Greece. Hinduism has continuously existed from ancient times until the present; we have an established religious culture and we know how to perform Hindu rituals properly.

This is 99% identical to the argument made by Linda Johnsen in Lost Masters: Sages of Ancient Greece: “I love and respect the Greeks, but if I had to choose only one spiritual tradition to study, I would choose India. The Indian tradition remains unbroken. The yoga lineages are still alive, and techniques for translating intellectual knowledge into living experience are still taught there. Enlightened masters aren’t just inspiring legends; you can still find Self-realized saints in India” (p. 207).

The reasons for choosing the Hellenic religion over Hinduism are manifold and sometimes quite complex, although I cannot speak for every Hellenist out there. I converted after reading Sallustius' On the Gods and the World and other philosophical texts from the ancient world, but also because I am a devotee of Apollôn and wanted to worship him in the most appropriate way possible. I have never considered Hinduism as anything more than an older cousin to my own religion. Why worship Vishnu or Shiva when they are not the ones I think about when approaching the shrine?


I'm fairly certain that any worship of Greek gods which exists today would be alien to a classical Greek. That's why I think there's no real value in pretending that one is a worshiper of Greek gods.

We can actually reconstruct most of Hellenic household worship and civic worship. The Mysteries, which provide different methods of salvation for individuals, are much more difficult, along with the practice of oracular divination (although I know that at least one Orphic group exists in Greece). It's actually harder for Ásatrúar and Celtic Recons because their ancestors didn't leave behind as many primary texts.

In all recon communities, regardless of religion, we are expected to cite scholarly sources and primary texts when asked. This preserves authenticity. Many unwritten aspects of the ancient religion have been preserved in folk tradition and art, even aspects of the Mysteries.

That said, the various churches in Europe have been trying to stamp out Hellenic worship since Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. It has never worked. We remain as difficult to exterminate as cockroaches, even in eras when apostasy carried a death sentence.


But I don't personally believe that what they're doing has any spiritual value, or that they are communicating with God via their ridiculous practices.

Some Neopagans and Wiccans turn every devotional ritual they do into a self-help … thing … and many recons are also critical of this. Worship is less about us and more about cultivating a healthy relationship with God. Breathing life back into the religions of Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Near East takes a lot more discipline and care than most people have, and it can become a devotional act in and of itself. It certainly has an air of defiance about it.

Personally, whenever I feel dejected, I remember Julian Augustus and the countless Ethnikoi Hellenes who died rather than convert to keep their integrity. We're picking up the torch he dropped when assassinated all those centuries ago. We're remembering the people massacred at Laconia and the death camps in Skythopolis (http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=english&f=lovestories).