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KaliDevotee
15 March 2011, 03:15 AM
Namaste,

I'm not sure if this is the proper place for this topic, but I think since the topic is potentially controversial it works. :)

Now, to clarify I am transgendered, and I wonder if this is frowned upon in Hinduism. I am not wanting anyone to argue or be negative, and I am very nervous about posting this here, because I know the hostility I've gotten from some people in the past but I am very curious if anyone has the opinion that it would affect my devotion or God's view of me within Hinduism. Thank you so much. :)

Eastern Mind
15 March 2011, 07:34 AM
Vannakkam KaliDevotee:

Personally, because I believe you are a soul, not a body, not emotions, etc. then God Siva loves all, is in all, etc. Therefore I have no problem with it. But don't be surprised or shocked if other Hindus don't share my view. We are a spectrum of humanity, very diverse.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
15 March 2011, 06:44 PM
If you're interested in the general opinion of Hindus, I have no statistics. But my off-the-cuff guess is that given the traditionalism of most Hindus, it would indeed be frowned upon. For what it's worth, I've never seen an obvious transgender person at any temple or at a Hindu function.

Now as for what Hindu philosophy says about this topic, I guess there are two opposing arguments. The pro-transgender people will likely point out Urvashi's curse on Arjuna in Mahabharata. Urvashi was a celestial dancer who made advances toward Arjuna. When he rejected her, saying he viewed her as a mother, she cursed him to be impotent for an entire year. But since the Pandevas would have to live the last year of their exile in disguise, she said it would prove to be a blessing for him. He effectively masqueraded as a woman for a year. Some people who actually know Sanskrit tell me that the words used to describe him indicate a sort of "third sex." The very existence of this third sex, some might say, along with a Dharmic hero's living as a woman, might suggest to some people that this sort of behavior is acceptable.

I imagine the other side of the argument would then come from the Bhagavad Gita, where Sri Krishna says that perfection is attained by doing one's natural duty (see chapter 18, verse 46 for example). While there have been arguments back and forth about whether homosexuality is natural, it's pretty hard to argue that one's gender is unnatural. After all, the ultimate end of transgender behavior (if I understand it properly) is change of sex, which is only possible through an artificial operation and regular hormonal maintenence. Thus, one's dharma is connected to the gender of his birth, and he should do his dharma without being attached to the fruit of his work.

Personally I don't think transgenderism is a spiritually-healthy behavior. But you might want to investigate Hindu Scriptures and saints and decide for yourself.

Adhvagat
15 March 2011, 07:18 PM
Kali, one bit of information that people should know about this is the difference between transgendered and transvestite.

Transgendered people usually suffer psychologically and feel rejection of their inate sexuality, it's really a disfunction, not just a perversion like someone could think.

I'd go with EM opinion, if that's something already settled in yourlife, now practice Hindu fully as the gender you identify yourself with now.

Transgenderism might not be healthy technically speaking, but well, I also have lots of other mental problems that are not spiritually healthy either, we deal with our problems the best we can and move on with our spiritual life.

Om Tat Sat

KaliDevotee
15 March 2011, 10:41 PM
Thank you everyone for your responses! I'm looking forward to more! :) It is wonderful getting other's opinions.



While there have been arguments back and forth about whether homosexuality is natural, it's pretty hard to argue that one's gender is unnatural. After all, the ultimate end of transgender behavior (if I understand it properly) is change of sex, which is only possible through an artificial operation and regular hormonal maintenence. Thus, one's dharma is connected to the gender of his birth, and he should do his dharma without being attached to the fruit of his work.

Personally I don't think transgenderism is a spiritually-healthy behavior. But you might want to investigate Hindu Scriptures and saints and decide for yourself.

Thank you for your honesty and opinion! :) from my perspective my "birth gender" is female. All my life I've felt female and as if my body didn't "match" my soul. That's a very crude way to explain the feeling since it's so unique to different individuals and most people don't feel disconnected from their sex. And I don't really think it's necessarily unhealthy for spiritual behavior, because it's just that, spiritual. And although I do intend to transition very soon, I don't feel it will negatively affect my journey.

and I didn't realize that Pietro had already defined what a transgendered person is! :O


Kali, one bit of information that people should know about this is the difference between transgendered and transvestite.

Transgendered people usually suffer psychologically and feel rejection of their inate sexuality, it's really a disfunction, not just a perversion like someone could think.

I'd go with EM opinion, if that's something already settled in yourlife, now practice Hindu fully as the gender you identify yourself with now.

Transgenderism might not be healthy technically speaking, but well, I also have lots of other mental problems that are not spiritually healthy either, we deal with our problems the best we can and move on with our spiritual life.

Om Tat Sat

I agree! :D thank you, I realize that everyone has a different opinion but I appreciate how sensitive and kind you are being your posts.

If I were to ask this question in most most other religious environments, I could almost guarantee something hateful and cruel being said right away! The beauty within most of the Hindu community is that everyone understands that others have different viewpoints and opinions and typically there is a very respectful nature. It's refreshing! :)

devotee
15 March 2011, 10:54 PM
Namaste KD,


I'm not sure if this is the proper place for this topic, but I think since the topic is potentially controversial it works. :)

Now, to clarify I am transgendered, and I wonder if this is frowned upon in Hinduism. I am not wanting anyone to argue or be negative, and I am very nervous about posting this here, because I know the hostility I've gotten from some people in the past but I am very curious if anyone has the opinion that it would affect my devotion or God's view of me within Hinduism. Thank you so much. :)

Being transgender is not frowned upon in Hinduism. You are one of His creations and as holy as anyone else. However, these people have their own separate societies in India & they don't mix with people of other sexes in routine social activities. These people have their own Guru and they worship some lesser known god. However, if someone is born as such in a family and kept within the family, I think he/she can participate in activities as others too. This is because though it is not considered "normal" ... such people are certainly not hated by the Hindus. Being from neutral sex, they have been kept traditionally to serve the ladies in the houses by landlords/kings/rich people.

Normally, these people are treated as women in Hindu society. It is beleived that they have some special powers to bless or curse .... so they normally come in groups for blessing a new born child or a newly wedded couple etc. and are paid dakshina for that.

There is a dark side to this ... i.e. sexual exploitation of these people but I don't know if that is due their own peculiar behaviour or society's biased views against these people.

OM

Ramakrishna
15 March 2011, 10:55 PM
Namaste KaliDevotee,

I agree with Eastern Mindji, and I reiterate the part about there being a diversity of opinions in Hinduism. But certainly the soul is of more importance than the physical body.

Jai Sri Ram

Divine Kala
16 March 2011, 03:08 AM
Thus, one's dharma is connected to the gender of his birth, and he should do his dharma without being attached to the fruit of his work.

One's dharma is stressed in Hinduism and so I wanted to express this opinion. Just as a butcher may become a realised soul by following his/her dharma, so might a transgender/transexual individual move forward by listening to their soul deep yearning to be outwardly what they feel themselves to be inwardly.

We cannot say that 'you are born male/female, therefore your dharma is connected to that gender despite the fact that you are, on the inside, the opposite gender'.

A person cannot move forward, spiritually, if they feel spiritually smothered by their own bodies. The whole reason for this birth is to move forward, toward God Realisation, and if we tell people 'you must live this way' we are no better than Christians and Muslims.

sanjaya
16 March 2011, 10:01 AM
One's dharma is stressed in Hinduism and so I wanted to express this opinion. Just as a butcher may become a realised soul by following his/her dharma, so might a transgender/transexual individual move forward by listening to their soul deep yearning to be outwardly what they feel themselves to be inwardly.

We cannot say that 'you are born male/female, therefore your dharma is connected to that gender despite the fact that you are, on the inside, the opposite gender'.

A person cannot move forward, spiritually, if they feel spiritually smothered by their own bodies. The whole reason for this birth is to move forward, toward God Realisation, and if we tell people 'you must live this way' we are no better than Christians and Muslims.

Since the concept of Dharma is so central to Hinduism, I too think that this is an issue worth discussing further. I'll table the issue of being better than Christians or Muslims for the moment though, mostly because I'm trying to avoid criticizing them as harshly as I would like to if left to my own devices.

Anyway, I think the example of the butcher actually works in favor of my case. If someone works as a butcher and it occurs to him that his work isn't in keeping with Dharma, he has to alter his behavior. For us to say that being a butcher is necessarily sinful (which I think it is), we must reject moral relativism and assert that there is some objective standard that everyone should obey. After all, the butcher was not born a butcher; he made an active choice to take up that role. His desire to do so did not make it right. But when he decided to leave, he was in fact making the right choice. The Dharmic standard that we must obey is thus independent of our personal thoughts and feelings.

So it is, I feel, with a "gender confused" individual. He may feel that his sexual organs don't reflect his true sex, but his feeling does not validate his desires. I can tell you that as an Indian Hindu growing up in the United States, many times I felt that vegetarianism was foolish and that I ought to eat meat. I now realize that I was wrong to feel this way, that these feelings were a product of the culture in which I was immersed. Likewise, transgenderism might be the product of some external influence (for the purposes of this discussion I regard biological anomalies as "external" influences). But that does not make it Dharmic.

Now, in Hinduism we generally believe that people go through three stages of life. First comes the life of a student, when a person studies and prepares for his future profession. Next comes family life, where the person gets married, raises kids, and supports his family. Then later, in old age, a person is freed from the responsibilities of raising a family, and has time to devote to deeper, spiritual matters. This cycle doesn't work so well when a person becomes transgendered.

As Devotee has already stated, there are indeed many sexually ambiguous or neutral sex people in India. This is not a new issue to us, but has been around since ancient times. So old is it that superstitions have arisen concerning these people. But these people don't simply live like the opposite sex (i.e., you're not going to find many women turning into men and then deciding to be a priest or a kshatriya). They live in separate communities. I don't think that's the sort of lifestyle KaliDevotee has in mind.

We need an objective way to determine Dharma. I don't think that one's personal feelings are the best measure, given Sri Krishna's many warnings against attachment. Attachment is a feeling, so clearly our our dharma is irrespective of what we feel. It seems to me that the gender of one's birth is as good a measuring stick here as any. After all, to say that one can be smothered by his own body is to tacitly assume that transgenderism is not natural.

That said, I sense your unease is due to a concern that some sort of social policy should come of all this. Dharma is not something that can be controlled via a hierarchy. I certainly don't propose that anything be done about transgenderism. Don't get me wrong, if anyone in my family decided they were transgender, I would deal with it swiftly. But outside of that, I have no say in how others ought to live. So to transgender people, I would not say "you must live this way." My refusal to interfere in a person's behavior, however, does not make it spiritually healthy or Dharmic.

yajvan
16 March 2011, 10:27 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Namaste,

Now, to clarify I am transgendered

I am yajvan... and that is not the truth. Many confuse what they do (doctor, lawyer, brick layer, sales person) with who they are. If you associate 100% with your body, then this would be a correct assessment.
Yet the body comes and goes. Even in this life - the body is re-created every 7 to 10 years ( so they say). It is born of food, lives by food, sustained by food. So are you food?

It is my position that sanātana dharma , the root of hinduism is more concerned and centered on the origin of one's true nature - not sexual preferences. When we associate 100% with the body's habits, likes, dis-likes, moods, sexual preferences, we give ourselves over to grief.

What is frowned upon in sanātana dharma is not knowing the Self. It takes a lifetime to come to figure this out and to our chagrin, many do not accomplish this.

To think who you are is determined upon size, shape, sexual orientation, religious belief, nationality, etc. is to mistake a diamond for a rock.

praṇām

Ganeshprasad
16 March 2011, 02:33 PM
Pranam
Yajvan has explained so eloquently, there is not much to add except to expand on who we are not. Certainly not this body nor this senses or mind (easy said than done), we are most certainly not any sex orientations. what does Krishna says about Kaam? Bg 7.11

dharmaviruddho bhutesu
kamo 'smi bharatarsabha
I am the lust (or Kaama) in human beings that is in accord with Dharma (for procreation), O Arjuna. (7.11)

So it is quite clear our sex desires should be in accord with Dharma

In Hindu society sex is a taboo subject, not discuss openly, it certainly not looked upon as spiritual progress but as an individual it is our choice what we do, once embarked on a spiritual journey (it is not a walk in the park) following Dharma there are Yam and Niyams, overly sex orientations is a hindrance.

In this regards Chapter three in Bhagvat Gita verses 3.36-3.39 makes a very good read.

Jai Shree Krishna

charitra
16 March 2011, 03:02 PM
Kali Devotee,
Briefly reviewing itihasa, none other than Arjuna, the most favorite friend disciple of Krishna had to accept the gift of transforming his body and mind to lead a life of a Trnsgender with the name of Brihannala (google). Thus Arjuna had spent one year of his life as a dance teacher to princess uttara in aznatavasam (as sanjaya had mentioned above).
Historically, hindus have accepted transgender community without any persecution whatsoever. There is a talk doing rounds that the third gender is going to be a part of voter enrollment disclosure form in India, which means apart from checking the boxes of either M or F, one has an option to check ‘other’ or T, in very near future. Hijras, ( please google this word, more or less a blanket term for LGBT) are the transgender community that engaged in performing arts like singing and dancing and were properly rewarded for their services during wedding receptions, birthday bashes etc etc in the past several centuries. The British have outlawed the gays in 1800s in occupied India, but then that has nothing to with hindus. Even during Brits’ rule hizras have lived and thrived not withstanding the said law. The Brit suckers were thrown out, and the law was scrapped, gay rights were restored to Indians. The point is Hizra communities lived their own private life openly without any persecution all along. Hinduism never condemned them ever. I’ll be more than happy to welcome you and Rachel Maddow to hindu faith.

Ganeshprasad
16 March 2011, 04:00 PM
Pranam


Kali Devotee,
Briefly reviewing itihasa, none other than Arjuna, the most favorite friend disciple of Krishna had to accept the gift of transforming his body and mind to lead a life of a Trnsgender with the name of Brihannala (google).

Please let us not glorify it, certainly it was not a gift but a curse by Urvasi in the heavens. impotent is certainly not looked upon as glory none other then Lord Krishna reminds Arjun of the fact Bg.2.3

klaibyam ma sma gamah partha
naitat tvayy upapadyate
ksudram hrdaya-daurbalyam
tyaktvottistha parantapa

O son of Prtha, do not yield to this degrading impotence.



Historically, hindus have accepted transgender community without any persecution whatsoever. There is a talk doing rounds that the third gender is going to be a part of voter enrollment disclosure form in India, which means apart from checking the boxes of either M or F, one has an option to check ‘other’ or T, in very near future. Hijras, ( please google this word, more or less a blanket term for LGBT) are the transgender community that engaged in performing arts like singing and dancing and were properly rewarded for their services during wedding receptions, birthday bashes etc etc in the past several centuries. The British have outlawed the gays in 1800s in occupied India, but then that has nothing to with hindus. Even during Brits’ rule hizras have lived and thrived not withstanding the said law. The Brit suckers were thrown out, and the law was scrapped, gay rights were restored to Indians. The point is Hizra communities lived their own private life openly without any persecution all along. Hinduism never condemned them ever. I’ll be more than happy to welcome you and Rachel Maddow to hindu faith.

Hinduism is certainly great and it place a lot off responsibility to an individual, it is not about accepting or rejecting but it is for an individual to ask, is any of my actions conducive to my spiritual progress? that is for an individual to decide. i don't know if Dharma enjoys me to engage in those practice.

Jai Shree Krishna

sanjaya
16 March 2011, 04:12 PM
Please let us not glorify it, certainly it was not a gift but a curse by Urvasi in the heavens. impotent is certainly not looked upon as glory none other then Lord Krishna reminds Arjun of the fact Bg.2.3

That's more or less my understanding as well. At best, Urvasi's curse was a mixed blessing. It definitely made it easier for him to perform his required year of hiding, but at the end of the day it was primarily intended as a curse. However we look at it, I don't personally see this story as being prescriptive in any way. So I don't think that "Arjuna was cursed with being impotent for a year, therefore it's dharmic to be transgender" is the best logic.

Believer
16 March 2011, 06:27 PM
KaliD,

Leaving aside the scriptural authority, the tales of curses and boons from the itihasa, and other criteria; here is a layman's opinion. Most hindus in India do not understand the different sexual orientations that the good Lord gave to human beings. On top of that, the sexual desire is not considered a physiological function thrust upon the creation to keep it from extinction. The conservative Indian mindset thinks of people born with any deviations as family embarrassment and a definite hindrance to the marriage prospect of the siblings. Therefore, this type of information is kept under wraps, as if it is their fault. But that is India, and Hinduism as it is practiced there.

Here in the West, there is more awareness because of the vast amount of information available and the visuals of the people who refuse to live in a closet. So, there is no condemnation of deviations, and an understanding that if one lives the way God Himself created him/her, it does not interfere with one's spiritual progress. I for one, would not be the least bit perturbed about somebody with a different orientation practicing SD, just because God chose to make him/her different than me. Just be yourself and enjoy life, just the way, it has been provided to you by the providence. Not my business to judge. If the creator has any problems, you can take it up with Her on the judgement day. ;)
-

devotee
16 March 2011, 11:12 PM
Namaste KD,

I hope you must be feeling better by now. I just wanted to point out that Shikhandi, one of the great warriors on the side of the Pandavas was a transgender. In fact, if he would not have been there then Bhishma could never have been killed. There was no one on both sides of the armies who could take on Bhishma. And without killing/defeating him, this war couldn't have been won. Therefore, Krishna advised Shikhandi to attack Bhishma. Due to his being a transgender, he was recognised as good as a female & therefore, Bhishma refused to attack him in return. Behind Shikhandi, it was actually Arjuna who attacked Bhishma shielded by Shikhandi and this was how one of the greatest warriors of all times was defeated.

Forget about your body. The body of a man, a woman & a transgender ... all are just vehicles ... all these bodies are born to be destroyed ... to be burnt in flames or destroyed by other ways. This is not you. If that were you, then also there was nothing to be worried about because then, anyway, this existence was only temporal & so why to be worried about that ! But the reality is that you are not the body ... this body is like our clothes given by God based on our Guna/Karma. A person doesn't change by the change of his/her cloth. You can very well undergo a successful operation and change yourself into a woman ... but will that change "you" ? You & all of us are pure untainted spirit ... any change in this body doesn't make any difference to Atman ... that is what you are.

You are as holy as anyone else. You are as lovable to God as anyone of us. God is not bothered about what your body is ... why should it matter to you ? No one has a right to give acceptance or to reject this gender ... it is none of anyone's business to give a verdict on superiority or inferiority of sexes. As far as spirituality is concerned, Hindus accept that it is a matter purely between a particular devotee and God. There is no pope/Mullah in Hinduism. Please make your journey towards your Beloved who is waiting with utmost patience & love in his eyes for your coming back to His arms. Do you need anyone else's love ?.... my dear friend, no one in this world can love you as God loves you. Your body/clothes are given by Him. It is "you" who matters to Him and not your body/cloth. Believe me, it is true. :)

OM

KaliDevotee
17 March 2011, 02:18 AM
Namaste KD,

I hope you must be feeling better by now. I just wanted to point out that Shikhandi, one of the great warriors on the side of the Pandavas was a transgender. In fact, if he would not have been there then Bhishma could never have been killed. There was no one on both sides of the armies who could take on Bhishma. And without killing/defeating him, this war couldn't have been won. Therefore, Krishna advised Shikhandi to attack Bhishma. Due to his being a transgender, he was recognised as good as a female & therefore, Bhishma refused to attack him in return. Behind Shikhandi, it was actually Arjuna who attacked Bhishma shielded by Shikhandi and this was how one of the greatest warriors of all times was defeated.

Forget about your body. The body of a man, a woman & a transgender ... all are just vehicles ... all these bodies are born to be destroyed ... to be burnt in flames or destroyed by other ways. This is not you. If that were you, then also there was nothing to be worried about because then, anyway, this existence was only temporal & so why to be worried about that ! But the reality is that you are not the body ... this body is like our clothes given by God based on our Guna/Karma. A person doesn't change by the change of his/her cloth. You can very well undergo a successful operation and change yourself into a woman ... but will that change "you" ? You & all of us are pure untainted spirit ... any change in this body doesn't make any difference to Atman ... that is what you are.

You are as holy as anyone else. You are as lovable to God as anyone of us. God is not bothered about what your body is ... why should it matter to you ? No one has a right to give acceptance or to reject this gender ... it is none of anyone's business to give a verdict on superiority or inferiority of sexes. As far as spirituality is concerned, Hindus accept that it is a matter purely between a particular devotee and God. There is no pope/Mullah in Hinduism. Please make your journey towards your Beloved who is waiting with utmost patience & love in his eyes for your coming back to His arms. Do you need anyone else's love ?.... my dear friend, no one in this world can love you as God loves you. Your body/clothes are given by Him. It is "you" who matters to Him and not your body/cloth. Believe me, it is true. :)

OM

I am feeling much better! :) I'm very grateful to all of you who have responded, even if I perceived some, perhaps, as not so supportive, that is fine. I agree with you, and others who say that it is important for the soul to be the focus, and it gives me a very reaffirming attitude to myself. I've never felt that I was "wrong" for being me. I've never experienced a negative event with a deity regarding myself. I thank all who have replied and to all who will reply very much for sharing your opinions and wisdom! :D

Ganeshprasad
17 March 2011, 08:07 AM
Pranam all

Once again I am forced to act a fall guy, yes it is great to encourage any one and I mean anyone to take up dharma, we can all say few flowery words, to attain love off God if that was that simple we would not be here in this material world. One has to make a lot off sacrifice, Vairagya, Tapsya, purity these are some off the traits one has to walk.

I have no issue with KaliDevotee he/she has all the right to worship and be a Hindu but sooner or later, the obstacle that keeps us rooted firmly in this material world that is our desire and the desires off Kaam is most difficult, must be overcome if we are to make progress in our spiritual journey.

This is not a gift as someone tried to make us believe, it is neither a condition that the creator or God imposed on anyone as Believer might have us believe in his post, his statement could easily be construed as a Christians position because it shows a distinct lack of SD understanding of Karma, that what ever position one is in, is due to one’s past karma and desires.

Finally coming to Devotee post, why be economic with truth? First there was no possibility of BhismaPita death period. True that Shikhandi was to be reason for him to stop fighting. BhismaPita new who he was, none other then Amba. She was born to Drupad as a girl (to take revenge)her name was Shikhandini and not as transgender. You want to read up how and why she became a man.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/mythology_from_india/77675 (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/mythology_from_india/77675)

Jai Shree Krishna

sanjaya
17 March 2011, 09:11 AM
Finally coming to Devotee post, why be economic with truth? First there was no possibility of BhismaPita death period. True that Shikhandi was to be reason for him to stop fighting. BhismaPita new who he was, none other then Amba. She was born to Drupad as a girl (to take revenge)her name was Shikhandini and not as transgender. You want to read up how and why she became a man.

I was going to point this out as well. I think it would be incorrect to say that Shikhandi was transgender. This is a case of a woman who actually attained manhood via prayer and penance. It wouldn't have done her much good if she only became transgendered, since the idea was to fight Bhisma on equal footing and take revenge.

devotee
17 March 2011, 10:40 AM
Pranam all

Once again I am forced to act a fall guy, yes it is great to encourage any one and I mean anyone to take up dharma, we can all say few flowery words, to attain love off God if that was that simple we would not be here in this material world. One has to make a lot off sacrifice, Vairagya, Tapsya, purity these are some off the traits one has to walk.

I have no issue with KaliDevotee he/she has all the right to worship and be a Hindu but sooner or later, the obstacle that keeps us rooted firmly in this material world that is our desire and the desires off Kaam is most difficult, must be overcome if we are to make progress in our spiritual journey.

This is not a gift as someone tried to make us believe, it is neither a condition that the creator or God imposed on anyone as Believer might have us believe in his post, his statement could easily be construed as a Christians position because it shows a distinct lack of SD understanding of Karma, that what ever position one is in, is due to one’s past karma and desires.

Finally coming to Devotee post, why be economic with truth? First there was no possibility of BhismaPita death period. True that Shikhandi was to be reason for him to stop fighting. BhismaPita new who he was, none other then Amba. She was born to Drupad as a girl (to take revenge)her name was Shikhandini and not as transgender. You want to read up how and why she became a man.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/mythology_from_india/77675 (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/mythology_from_india/77675)



Thanks for pointing that out, GaneshPrasad ji ! :) In some version which I heard, he is depicted as a transgender. May be that version is wrong.

Whether being a transgender is a defect or not, should be decided by the person & not others. If the person feels that it is a defect ... it is a defect & he should try to get rid of it .... there are many who are born with congenital defects. But this defect can be corrected by medical intervention if the person desires. Why to feel ashamed or low about it ? I born blind person is ok, a born lame person is ok ... then why a transgender should not be ok ?

Where does God say in BG that a transgender is of any lower status than others ? Is the God residing in his heart a lesser God ?

This is what I wanted to say & assure KD that she should not be bothered about being born as a transgender & instead concentrate on devotion to God. His being a transgender doesn't matter to God.

OM

Ganeshprasad
17 March 2011, 12:55 PM
Thank you devotee ji



Whether being a transgender is a defect or not, should be decided by the person & not others. If the person feels that it is a defect ... it is a defect & he should try to get rid of it .... there are many who are born with congenital defects. But this defect can be corrected by medical intervention if the person desires. Why to feel ashamed or low about it ? I born blind person is ok, a born lame person is ok ... then why a transgender should not be ok ?

Transgender is a conscious choice one makes in this life who am i to argue with that
but the real question one has to make as a human especially as a Hindu is who am i? athato brahma jijnasa that is what Yajvan in his post put it so nicely.



Where does God say in BG that a transgender is of any lower status than others ?

OM

you really do not want me answer this.

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
17 March 2011, 01:41 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


If the person feels that it is a defect ... it is a defect & he should try to get rid of it ....

I will be first to say I have a defect. The defect of ignorance. Any thing other then this is just a detail. Fix the ignorance and
all other defects are corrected - they really never existed.

To think one is a shop keeper, a doctor, a lawyer, a school teacher ( or any of the sexual preferences that have been discussed on
HDF - past or present) as their primary identity contributes to one's ~blind eye~ .

To not address this we continue to waddle in the darkness and talk of the darkness. Where is the wisdom there? I have never read
anything in the śāstra-s to suggest we deal with a problem on the level of the problem. As if one can remove darkness by taking
it away, or pushing it out. Darkness is removed by bringing the light.

What is the light ? It is uddhāraṇa prakāśa¹ - raising the clarity, the clearness of Being.


praṇām

words


prakāśa = clearness , brightness , splendor , luster , light
prākāśa = mirror like
uddhāraṇa- the act of raising , elevating

NayaSurya
17 March 2011, 01:58 PM
Being a blinded portion, I can not look back past this lifetime and know why I am inclined to certain things or why certain things happen. I will say it could be ones karma to return here and fight against the current of a society due to internal feeling which conflict with the body design.

It is almost impossible to determine why the machine known as karma turns the way it does for each of us.

But, from this limited place, I can tell you that for as many situations as you could have, there are an infinite amount of possibilities and outcomes.


A man could be brutally abusive to a blind child and come back as a blind child, himself. Or a child could be born blind to teach his Mother who was heartless to a blind child in a previous life about compassion and patience.

This is only two reasons of millions. From this limited place we can not know why Karma turns in such ways.

My own 16 yr old child, three days ago came to me and admitted he felt he was gay because he had deep feelings for a young man very close to him. To this child I did cry, because I knew his life would be infinitely harder because of this society and how they treat ones who deviate from the normal pattern of existence.

Because I know...this decision could be part of a lesson, some karma to work out...I hesitate to act and cause any deviation from his own self-determined path.

He could be so advanced that he no longer sees his own gender as a hinderance to who he cares for... the child is disabled with a condition in the autism spectrum and has always been the most loving, sweet...very dear child. He has been a true angel to our family.

But he also, could be fighting his designed gender of this lifetime...and going against what he should be working on.

If this was so, it would mean that he will make more trips here...but...some of us like to take the more scenic route.

Beloved knows I will be there to help this beautiful Portion along the path...always with deep love and consideration.

But, karma can not be denied...and it will catch up to you whether you like it or not. I am very confident in the infrastructure of this realm to handle every deviation.

I suppose that's the most wonderful thing about this philosophy and religion. The fact that, no matter what...no matter what...we are unchanged and unmoved. We all win in the end.

Hugs<3

charitra
17 March 2011, 06:26 PM
Ganesh Prasad,
‘’ This is not a gift as someone tried to make us believe’’

Namaste. Yes it was meant to be a curse so far as Urvashi was concerned, I don’t dispute that part. No, it was not by accident or out of ignorance I picked the word ‘gift’ in place of ‘curse’. I indeed used it as a metaphor on purpose. Savyasachi Arjuna cannot be so easily subjected to a curse, Urvashi or not. It is Urvashi out of kamandhakara who tried to force Arjuna to enter into a relationship and it is Arjuna who turned down her proposal, who is the agressor here? What a moral right she has to curse him!! Arjuna is depicted as karana janma soul ( birth with a purpose) whose life is closely overseen by divine guidance. Keeping in view of his forthcoming agnaatavasa stint in Arjuna’s life, none other than FATE herself made Arjuna to go thru the row with Urvashi. I say this because typically a curse is a curse is a curse, which ought to make an individual to pay/ suffer as a result of the said curse. In this case on the contrary, the curse (shaap) played out to his immense advantage.

Glorification was not the underlying objective to depict it as a gift….In reality it simply turned out to be a gift (vara/varam) and Arjuna (Brihannala) has had the last laugh, thanks to Urvashi. The very fact that the said curse can be initiated on his own choosing, in terms of place and time, amply substantiates my argument. He simply didn’t have to ‘serve’ the sentence immediately after the curse was uttered. Shanti.

Ganeshprasad
17 March 2011, 06:43 PM
Pranam



Glorification was not the underlying objective to depict it as a gift….. Shanti.

Thank you for clarification, from where i stood i certainly perceived it as a Glorification, otherwise i am well aware of the circumstances leading up to the curse, which in due course turn out to be blessing in disguise.

Jai Shree Krishna