Facebook Group helps alleviate Christian Dogmatism while sharing faith

[smaranam]

Namaste

There is a facebook group by Gaurahari Das (http://www.facebook.com/wzodda99) called "Born Again Christians for Krishna (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=121819897841883&v=wall)"

where he gives talks about how Jesus's msg was to follow him, the Guru to reach Krishna (Bhagvan). He says Jesus is Guru Tattva, and so are numerous from SanAtan Dharma (implying Jesus is not the only one, so Christians can break out of that thinking, and this can alleviate the Christian dogmatism).
So he emphasizes that Jesus was telling them to follow the word of the Guru (Son) to reach the Father (Krishna). He invites born again Christians (and everyone else) to hear the message of Krishna Consciousness as taught by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAd. Some who are open to it, do take up Krishna bhakti without having to sacrifice any principles of svadharma from their side.

Incidentally, Jesus and his 12 disciples were vegetarian from their side http://www.jesusveg.org/ and as someone (i think TheOne) has pointed out here, the early Gnostic teachings were quite different, and the early languages like Hebrew and Greek do not get translated into English accurately, and we come up with translations that look dogmatic and narrow.

This post is not trying to compare the two dharmas, certainly Jesus's msg (The NEw Testament) was a far simpler and a much smaller subset that tried to bring some love and order to people, and applied to the desha (place/country - Mediterranean), kAla (time/era), pAtra (Isrealites / Jews). In SanAtan Dharma, we learn that a principle may be applied taking into consideration desh, kAla, pAtra. Let us all follow SanAtan DharmAchAr please.

Jai Shri KrushNa
praNAm

[Adhvagat]

My main gripe would be regarding the adulterations of the Bible done for political reasons throgh several councils (the ones we know about)... Can you base a spiritual life on this?

However I'd say it's a nice thing... People trailing this path will eventually have deeper philosophical questionings and end up in SD.

But we shouldn't ignore this is also an strategy of ISKCON to introduce Krishna Consciousness to christians.

[smaranam]

Namaste Pietro,

All points noted.



But we shouldn't ignore this is also an strategy of ISKCON to introduce Krishna Consciousness to christians.

Perhaps you are right, but i don't think so. We can't conclude it is ISKCON. Gaurahari Das is doing this at a very personal level without involving ISKCON, and i don't believe he is in the GBC. Plus, he never asks anyone to give up their original dharma, simply shares Lord Chaitanya stories, 6 Goswamis, other VaishNav kathAs and Shrila PRabhupAd's message on You Tube and UStream. Also, talks to Krishna devotees on how they are neglecting such a simple message of following the Guru's instructions 100%. So it is both ways. The audience is varied, not just Christian. In fact, those who were not interested would not join the group or would simply not tune in.

Jai Shri KrushNa
praNAm

[Adhvagat]

Smaranam, I don't say this in a bad sense. Don't get me wrong.

I just perceive it as ISKCON trying to reach out to the christians. But of course I may be wrong.

Gaurahari Das also made me realize that some people really FEEL something for Jesus, something I, born in Brazil, a country where catholicism is the dominant religion, never felt. I was raised in a Kardecist family, dealing early with concepts such as reincarnation and karma.

[Rationalist]

This is disgusting; diluting Christian teachings with superior Hindu ones. It will ultimately fail.

The strength of that demonic religion's teachings lie in white/Western supremacy. Christianity will gasp its final breath when the West falls.

[charitra]

This is disgusting; diluting Christian teachings with superior Hindu ones. It will ultimately fail.

The strength of that demonic religion's teachings lie in white/Western supremacy. Christianity will gasp its final breath when the West falls.

Namaste Rationalist,
NO. I dont want west to FALL, ever. ;)

However, I do want the western christians allay our concern of being sent to hell :mad: , for starters. So they must shut down the hell permanently, which they have built exclusively for hindus among some others, like hapless Buddhists etc....
when they are ready to shut down even the Guantanamo where some killing machines are lodged, then it makes lot of sense to take that much needed first step as an interfaith gesture :)

Shanti

[Sahasranama]

I don't care what the Christians do, but I like to think of Hinduism as a honest religion. Do these acharyas really believe that Jesus was a guru who was preaching about Krishna, if not then why tell lies in order to convert people. Keep it real, that's all.

[smaranam]

I don't care what the Christians do, but I like to think of Hinduism as a honest religion. Do these acharyas really believe that Jesus was a guru who was preaching about Krishna, if not then why tell lies in order to convert people. Keep it real, that's all.

Namaste Sahasranama,

I would not generalize and club all "these acharyas". In this case, GaurahariJi himself comes from a Christian family. Like him, there are many others who voluntarily walked into the door and said "This is it! I have found it (my home) finally." He shares how faith in Jesus (and not hostility or antagonism) led him to KrshNa's door and many others say that. This is because, the Christian Bible does not answer many questions the jidnyAsus among them had as children , which SanAtan Dharma answers, of course.
(As many here know, research shows that ONLY FIFTEEN PERCENT of what is attributed to Jesus's words are actually Jesus's words - like semon of the mount.).

They do not think Jesus is THE God (as Paul or whoever spread later on), but Son of God i.e. a very pure and empowered devotee and vibhuti of God as the Brahma BhUta bhakta with no desires of his own, KRushNa describes in Bh Gita. Empowered, hence shaktyavesha avatAr, with the ashta siddhis of anima laghima , walking on water etc.

Here is a website that talks about it in detail : OMJESUS_NET (http://www.omjesus.net) It also proves through Bhagavad Gita verses how Jesus is not 100% GOD Himself as in the 100% Original Candle, and never claimed to be one. The Oneness of "I and my Father are one" is his tadAtmiktA.

Jai Shri KRushNa
praNAm

P.S. For those who would rather believe Jesus never existed, he gave me darshan once - flash of a second darshan...
A few years before this, Shirdi Sai Baba did the same thing. At both times - middle of the night - i was scared.

[Sahasranama]

P.S. For those who would rather believe Jesus never existed, he gave me darshan once - flash of a second darshan...
A few years before this, Shirdi Sai Baba did the same thing. At both times - middle of the night - i was scared.
Chant hanuman chalisa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoVNsvTTnjY) and bajrang ban (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAzi0CjhHz0), no more bhutas and pretas will show up.

[smaranam]

Perhaps i do not have to reply to this. This was many years ago. I said i was scared only because it was sudden and unexpected. In fact, they have so much vAtsalya in them, they only come to bless. Some Gurus who have left the body also visit disciples in dreams to guide and bless.

Bhutas and pretas - is a totally different matter. Since ShyAmsundar is with me, and the KRushNa Mahamantra in addition, there are no bhutas around - that is KrushNa's promise. But yes, Hanuman Chalisa is good, HanumanJi Himself, KRushNa sends him too.

Moral of the story: Never share such things. I beg forgiveness of those personalities and of Shri KRushNa.

[Sahasranama]

Bhutas and pretas love to visit people who chant the Maha mantra, it's an opportunity for them to get freed from the ghostly realm and attain human birth, but if you worship Hanuman he will take care of them.

[mohanty]

I don't care what the Christians do, but I like to think of Hinduism as a honest religion. Do these acharyas really believe that Jesus was a guru who was preaching about Krishna, if not then why tell lies in order to convert people. Keep it real, that's all.

I think what these acharyas are concerning themselves with is bridging the gap between people of different leanings. A Christian may remain Christian in spite of there being things in the bible that he does not agree with, but a reinterpretation couched in dharmic language might help him see beyond it.

Similarly, when Abrahamic faiths are examined by looking through dharmic lenses, they seem to make more sense. So the acharyas may just be the tools that end up taking some scriptural trash out.

[Sahasranama]

It should not be our concern how Hindus can create better versions of the Abrahamic religions. This is not where our energy should go and actually this attitude can bite us back in the butt. Deliberate misinterpretation of the abrahamic texts, imposing Hindu standards on them, will only give a cover to these doctrines. It gives a defense to Muslims and Christians when they are being confronted with the reality of their violent history and the non compassionate nature of their scriptures. This is a defense that they do not deserve and will use against us when the time is right. A Muslims for example may argue that the Koran is a great peace promoting text and prevent decisive action against terrorism. A Christian may say that Jesus was a peace loving yogi, but when the opportunity arises they will use this to proselytize Hindus. You can find pamphlets online where Christians are given advice on how to convert South East Asians. The advice is to first make use of the tolerance of Hindus and introduce Jesus as a saint. This way they get sucked into Christianity slowly.

Serving Hinduism on a plate to Christians and Muslims comes at a price of having to remodel Hinduism itself to fit their standards. This has been happening since the 18th century starting with people like Rammohan Roy who rejected idolatry and belief in multiple gods. It has resulted in many Abrahamic values being adopted into Hinduism. Certain practices of Hinduism are portrayed as superstitious, because they are not universal enough. Swami Vivekananda for example critiqued Hindus for worshiping Tulasi devi. I do not see this great Hindu tradition as superstition. I have always felt a great connection with nature and I feel blessed to worship the divine in plant form. But for Christians this is all idolatry and blasphemy, they will laugh at it, if not condemn it as a backward practice of the heathens. Abrahamic values like this have greatly influenced modern Hindu thinking. The desire to please or at least compete with them, rooted in an inferiority complex, has played a major role to portray Hindu tradition as superstitious and to alter many of its practices to fit foreign values. This has largely been done by Indians themselves.

Trying to extrapolate Hindu wisdom from abrahamic texts will open a big door for religious appropriation and graying of the boundaries between authentic traditional knowledge of Hinduism and new age mumbo jumbo. This in turn will create a lot of bickering from Hindus, if only they realized that the root of the problem lied in their own foolishness and their own lack of assertiveness in interreligious matters. In popular new age culture, they speak of balancing your chakras with kabbalah yoga to attain Christ consciousness. I suspect that this is how dharma will decline in kali yuga, the asuras will distort dharma till it becomes a conglomerated collection of practices that have already lost their meaning and only serve to give some rationalisations to the Charvaka type thinkers. It is simply not the job of any Hindu Acharya to assist in this process.

[Harinama]

It's not just ISKCON, but many Hindu groups and associations love to use extra-Vedic prophets and messengers and make them one of God's shaktyavesha avataras. In terms of ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism in general, I put the blame on Bhaktivinoda Thakura, one of our Gaudiya Acharyas who declared that both Muhammad and Jesus are shaktyavesha avataras, empowered messengers of God.

According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Jesus was an empowered Messenger of Krishna who taught vatsalya rasa. But of course, only in Mahaprabhu's lila can we find full-fledged madhura-rasa in its most revealed form. :D

Of course, other gurus such as Srila Sridhar Maharaj in our Gaudiya lineage would still consider it holding on to that which is lower for something higher... this is the same sentiment shared by Satguru Shivaya Subramuniyaswami. I don't hold gurus against them if they 'Hinduise' such prophet-messengers, neither do I think it bad to let go of them and focus on our Vedic wealth of knowledge.

[Sahasranama]

In terms of ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism in general, I put the blame on Bhaktivinoda Thakura, one of our Gaudiya Acharyas who declared that both Muhammad and Jesus are shaktyavesha avataras, empowered messengers of God.Yes, the influence came from the Hindu reformers like Rammohan Roy (and others) who had their impact on many swamis from the 18th-20th century. I don't think we find such claims in Gaudiya vaishnavism before this period.

Prabhupada though wasn't kissing up to the Abrahamic religions:

Prabhupada:...The so-called religiosity with a view to get some material profit… That comes everywhere. Just (as) in Christianity, the religion means, “O God, give us our daily bread.” Material profit, similarly, in anywhere, they go for material benefit. Therefore this kind of religion, it is also good, but it not first-class...
Prabhupada: That religiosity also different kinds: rajasic, tamasic, and sattvic, according to one’s nature. The sattvic, they worship Visnu. The rajasic, they worship the demigods. And the tamasic, they worship bhuta, preta, pisaca…
Devotee: Demons.
Prabhupada: Demons. You’ll see the Mohammedans, they worship the tomb. And Christian also, they worship the tomb. They offer wreath on the tomb. So tamasic. What is there in the tomb? But because they’re tamasic, they’re worshiping like that. And this, this so-called incarnation worship is also tamasic. By tamasic, in darkness they accept somebody as incarnation, and they worship. This is tamasic.

[Harinama]

Yes, the influence cam from the Hindu reformers like Rammohan Roy who had their impact on many swamis from the 18th-20th century. I don't think we find such claims in Gaudiya vaishnavism before this period.

I know that in SCS Math, it is a little stricter. The idea is that Christianity, being that it has only vatsalya rasa, can not bring the full-fledged theism of the Krishna conception of God.

"Who is my Lord? What is His nature? Who am I? What is my inner self, and what is my connection with Him? How can I live continuously in His memory and service? The conception that we are meant for Him, designed and destined for Him, is laudable, but it must be clarified. We must attain the highest position. All these things are absent in Christianity. Only sacrifice for the Lord is given, and that is all right, it is the basic necessity of the soul. But after that, what is to be achieved? They are silent."

-- Srila Sridhar Maharaj


Of course, this is harder for Christians who, upon coming to Vaishnavism in the West will perceive. However, it is alot of sacrifice, and it takes time. Some say that Prabhupada, upon bringing his ISKCON into the West, was just being polite about Jesus and Muhammad. Upon seeing his transcripts and dialogue, I am sure that he truly believed that Muhammad and Jesus were equally shaktyavesha avataras of Lord Vishnu, and that chanting Jehovah or Allah is better, if not the name of Krishna.

However, in the long run, at least under my parama-guru's lineage, Srila Sridhar Maharaj says thus:

"We must cross the threshold given by Jesus. He has declared, 'Die to live.' The Lord’s company is so valuable to us that we must risk everything for Him. This material achievement is nothing; it is all poison. We must have no attraction for it. We must be ready to leave everything, all our material prospects and aspirations, including our body, for Him. God is great. But what is His greatness? What is my position? How can I engage myself in His service twenty-four hours a day? Here, Jesus is silent.

We receive no specific program from the Christians at this stage, so Vaishnavism comes to our heart’s relief, to satisfy our inner necessity, whatever it may be. Our inner thirst will be quenched there. You may be conscious or unconscious of the many demands within you, but they will reach full satisfaction in its most beautiful form there alone. It is not only that from far off we shall show God some reverential salute, but we can have Him in a very intimate way. The ideal of an intimate loving connection with God has been given by Vaishnavism, especially by Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, by Shrimad-Bhagavatam, and in Vrindavana, the land of
Krishna."

[Harinama]

But see, Srila Prabhupada was criticising Muslims and Christians... he never once did criticise Muhammad or Christ at all.

Since this thread relates to Jesus, I will refer to what has been written by Bhaktivinod Thakur.

"Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles...

Till now, this [madhurya] rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.

It has been seen that any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries."

[Believer]

It should not be our concern how Hindus can create better versions of the Abrahamic religions. This is not where our energy should go and actually this attitude can bite us back in the butt. Deliberate misinterpretation of the abrahamic texts, imposing Hindu standards on them, will only give a cover to these doctrines. It gives a defense to Muslims and Christians when they are being confronted with the reality of their violent history and the non compassionate nature of their scriptures. This is a defense that they do not deserve and will use against us when the time is right. A Muslims for example may argue that the Koran is a great peace promoting text and prevent decisive action against terrorism. A Christian may say that Jesus was a peace loving yogi, but when the opportunity arises they will use this to proselytize Hindus. You can find pamphlets online where Christians are given advice on how to convert South East Asians. The advice is to first make use of the tolerance of Hindus and introduce Jesus as a saint. This way they get sucked into Christianity slowly.

Serving Hinduism on a plate to Christians and Muslims comes at a price of having to remodel Hinduism itself to fit their standards. This has been happening since the 18th century starting with people like Rammohan Roy who rejected idolatry and belief in multiple gods. It has resulted in many Abrahamic values being adopted into Hinduism. Certain practices of Hinduism are portrayed as superstitious, because they are not universal enough. Swami Vivekananda for example critiqued Hindus for worshiping Tulasi devi. I do not see this great Hindu tradition as superstition. I have always felt a great connection with nature and I feel blessed to worship the divine in plant form. But for Christians this is all idolatry and blasphemy, they will laugh at it, if not condemn it as a backward practice of the heathens. Abrahamic values like this have greatly influenced modern Hindu thinking. The desire to please or at least compete with them, rooted in an inferiority complex, has played a major role to portray Hindu tradition as superstitious and to alter many of its practices to fit foreign values. This has largely been done by Indians themselves.

Trying to extrapolate Hindu wisdom from abrahamic texts will open a big door for religious appropriation and graying of the boundaries between authentic traditional knowledge of Hinduism and new age mumbo jumbo. This in turn will create a lot of bickering from Hindus, if only they realized that the root of the problem lied in their own foolishness and their own lack of assertiveness in interreligious matters. In popular new age culture, they speak of balancing your chakras with kabbalah yoga to attain Christ consciousness. I suspect that this is how dharma will decline in kali yuga, the asuras will distort dharma till it becomes a conglomerated collection of practices that have already lost their meaning and only serve to give some rationalisations to the Charvaka type thinkers. It is simply not the job of any Hindu Acharya to assist in this process.
Excellent!