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billhicks4Pope
20 March 2011, 08:18 PM
I have believed in reincarnation since I was aged 12. However I believe humans return again as humans(either gender), and animals return as animals(dogs as dogs, cats as cats etc). This is not what is taught within the Hare Krishna movement, so am I right or am I wrong? Its something I have accepted for 39yrs, and I find it difficult to visualise my next life as a cat or dog etc. Help required!

Namaste,

Lenny

devotee
21 March 2011, 03:18 AM
Namaste Pope,


I have believed in reincarnation since I was aged 12. However I believe humans return again as humans(either gender), and animals return as animals(dogs as dogs, cats as cats etc). This is not what is taught within the Hare Krishna movement, so am I right or am I wrong? Its something I have accepted for 39yrs, and I find it difficult to visualise my next life as a cat or dog etc. Help required!


Ah, it is hard to believe in something which you don't like to happen to you ! That is fine. :)

The eog-self which distinguishes itself as a separate being as "you" carries with it the Guna-Karma on the death of the body like air carries with it the scent of the surrounding. This Guna-Karma decides your next birth ... and it can be in better "yonis" (species/enviornment) or lower purely as per the Laws of Nature. However, have no fear. Do your Karma with all sincerity and love towards one and all ... it is going to be good only. Leave everything into the hands of God and relax. :)

"KarmaNyevAdhikAraste mA faleshu kadAchan" (Bhagwad Gita Chapter -2)

Performing action is within your rights. You have no say on the matter of results. (So, why worry ?)

OM

Adhvagat
21 March 2011, 03:43 AM
Lenny, that's not entirely accurate, we go where we want to. Desire is the ultimate driving force. So one could argue: "I want to be rich and full of women!", well, you can certainly desire it enough to pursue it, but right now you have other desires and it's still stuck with the current condition, which was then generated by previous desires, that's more or less how karma works.

If you're inquiring about philosophy, spiritual life and decided to be a vegetarian based on this, well... I'm not sure you're desiring to be a monkey next life. :)

anirvan
21 March 2011, 04:09 AM
it"s the strongest desire among our unlimited desires,that takes us into our next destiny after death. even the jeevatma( subtle body with self) has options of 9 gates/exit to come out of dying body depending upon our karma/character.

so if we are dying whole life thinking sexual desire,definitely we are going into a very lower birth like worms/pigs/pigeon :) .

billhicks4Pope
21 March 2011, 04:35 PM
many thanks for your replies which have given me much food for thought. I look at the awareness which exists within each one of us, from our perspective as a human being; then I contemplate what purpose it would serve the soul to return as say a worm, ant, fly etc. From the majesty of our experience as awareness within the human body, to the uncomprehensible existence as a worm! What purpose would that serve? Would it not also mess our astral memories when we return to Spirit? One life you live as a human being with all the complexities and insecurities that go with it, the next your living as a worm underground! No disrespect to worms here by the way! They have a purpose! For me it creates more problems returning as an insect or animal because our spiritual natures are so different, which is why I have always held the belief that humans return as humans and animals stay within their respective species. I can feel a headache coming on! Are their any books/videos which may help me to understand this better?

Namaste,

Lenny

devotee
22 March 2011, 11:35 AM
Namaste BP,


many thanks for your replies which have given me much food for thought. I look at the awareness which exists within each one of us, from our perspective as a human being; then I contemplate what purpose it would serve the soul to return as say a worm, ant, fly etc. From the majesty of our experience as awareness within the human body, to the uncomprehensible existence as a worm! What purpose would that serve? Would it not also mess our astral memories when we return to Spirit? One life you live as a human being with all the complexities and insecurities that go with it, the next your living as a worm underground! No disrespect to worms here by the way! They have a purpose! For me it creates more problems returning as an insect or animal because our spiritual natures are so different, which is why I have always held the belief that humans return as humans and animals stay within their respective species. I can feel a headache coming on! Are their any books/videos which may help me to understand this better?


What purpose it serves with your birth when you yourself are none but Brahman ?

It is all a grand game and every game has some rules for the game to continue. You may not think very high of a worm ... because you are a human being. If you were worm, you would have simply loved being a worm ... who knows ! Let me tell you a story :

There was once a very pious man. However, his past bad karmas were not fully exhausted when the time to leave the human body came. However, he had developed some extra-ordinary vision to see what was going to happen in future. He foresaw that he would be born as a worm in the dirty small pond nearby. He was sad to know this. He called his son and said, "When I die, I would be born as a worm in this pond due to my past bad karmas which has become ripe to fructify. You will be able to identify me easily as I would be extra bright red of all the worms in the pond. So, as soon as you see that worm, kill it to give me freedom from that horrible birth. The son agreed. The man died in course of time. His son started going to the nearby pond everyday and started looking for that extra bright red worm. One day he was able to locate it and he tried to capture it and kill but the worm took a dip in water and ran away. He tried several times but failed. Every day this poor boy went to the pond in the hope to kill the worm but the worm always gave him a slip ! Then one day, when he was again trying to capture that worm, the worm shouted in human voice .... "Hey, why are you after me ? I have done no harm to you. Why do you want to kill me ?". The boy tried to remind him that the worm was actually his father and he was only trying to get rid of his lowly birth as an insect as per his desires only. Hearing this, the worm laughed ! "Oh, that ! My friend, all relationships die with body. Forget about all this. I love this beautiful life of mine. Let me enjoy it as you are enjoying yours !" Saying this the worm took another dip in water and disappeared in water !

OM

billhicks4Pope
22 March 2011, 01:19 PM
Namaste BP,



What purpose it serves with your birth when you yourself are none but Brahman ?

It is all a grand game and every game has some rules for the game to continue. You may not think very high of a worm ... because you are a human being. If you were worm, you would have simply loved being a worm ... who knows ! Let me tell you a story :

There was once a very pious man. However, his past bad karmas were not fully exhausted when the time to leave the human body came. However, he had developed some extra-ordinary vision to see what was going to happen in future. He foresaw that he would be born as a worm in the dirty small pond nearby. He was sad to know this. He called his son and said, "When I die, I would be born as a worm in this pond due to my past bad karmas which has become ripe to fructify. You will be able to identify me easily as I would be extra bright red of all the worms in the pond. So, as soon as you see that worm, kill it to give me freedom from that horrible birth. The son agreed. The man died in course of time. His son started going to the nearby pond everyday and started looking for that extra bright red worm. One day he was able to locate it and he tried to capture it and kill but the worm took a dip in water and ran away. He tried several times but failed. Every day this poor boy went to the pond in the hope to kill the worm but the worm always gave him a slip ! Then one day, when he was again trying to capture that worm, the worm shouted in human voice .... "Hey, why are you after me ? I have done no harm to you. Why do you want to kill me ?". The boy tried to remind him that the worm was actually his father and he was only trying to get rid of his lowly birth as an insect as per his desires only. Hearing this, the worm laughed ! "Oh, that ! My friend, all relationships die with body. Forget about all this. I love this beautiful life of mine. Let me enjoy it as you are enjoying yours !" Saying this the worm took another dip in water and disappeared in water !

OM

Devotee,

thanks for your reply. I would like to make clear that I respect all life forms! From the worm right up to the Sun!
I have given much time to this question and I have decided that I will remain with my original belief that I will return in my next life as a human being. It has always felt right with me, and no matter how bad one's Karma is, returning as a worm or an ant(no disrespect to either), in my opinion would represent a waste of a life!

Namaste,

Lenny

charitra
23 March 2011, 10:53 AM
.... and no matter how bad one's Karma is, returning as a worm or an ant(no disrespect to either), in my opinion would represent a waste of a life!

Namaste,

Lenny[/quote]

Lenny, Namaste,
by your own account you were much more fearless and ‘resourceful’ at 12 than now, the intervening life has had its toll on you, what an amazing job your pastors did! You were fixated on future rebirth as a worm. oh please! The baseless fear has provided some entertainment value to me to be candid. But now I’m not laughing anymore sensing you are indeed serious about the worm?!
OK, then does the fear stem from your actions which now you don’t approve of and your self-pity and/or self critic is making you sleepless? Or is it a fear without any foundation, that you were a nice person all along and just as the evangelist injected threat of eternal hell, did this fear of worm birth creep into your core psych and eventually consumed your life? Just asking. By now you must have rightly guessed that most of us are not full time religious personalities here on this forum. We all have families, jobs and more importantly life isn’t easy on us either. The dharma base constantly guides our life. In nutshell, a hindu adopts the doctrines of dharma, artha, kama and moksha. Karma, yoga, rebirth are some more equally essential doctrines. Some exceptionally knowledgeable hindus here have already made commentaries in many threads explaining what each and every word means.
Get over it please, you will not come back as a worm. Nor there is hell waiting for you/ me ever!! The heartless god doesn’t exist, by deduction it is the evangelist mullah who is the heartless one here. You wont take a rebirth as a worm going by your fondness for music, poetry and life itself. More importantly gifted with a seekers bend, I am sure you are like most humans out there who keep away from tamasic life. So whats it then now?
My feeling is, at least in the beginning you need a guru or a sampradaya. Look around in your physical environment for help and try not to talk to abrahamists who will certainly scare you, taking advantage of your concerns. Also explore websites googling ‘western’ and ‘white’ hindus, clearly a sense of camaraderie is the need of the hour. Send private mails to western hindus on this very forum and see if it helps. Sorry, I’m not this preachy usually but your worm phobia rattled me a bit and my dharma compelled me to respond. Its a free advice, hence you can toss it thru the window. Shanti.

billhicks4Pope
23 March 2011, 11:51 AM
.... and no matter how bad one's Karma is, returning as a worm or an ant(no disrespect to either), in my opinion would represent a waste of a life!

Namaste,

Lenny

Lenny, Namaste,
by your own account you were much more fearless and ‘resourceful’ at 12 than now, the intervening life has had its toll on you, what an amazing job your pastors did! You were fixated on future rebirth as a worm. oh please! The baseless fear has provided some entertainment value to me to be candid. But now I’m not laughing anymore sensing you are indeed serious about the worm?!
OK, then does the fear stem from your actions which now you don’t approve of and your self-pity and/or self critic is making you sleepless? Or is it a fear without any foundation, that you were a nice person all along and just as the evangelist injected threat of eternal hell, did this fear of worm birth creep into your core psych and eventually consumed your life? Just asking. By now you must have rightly guessed that most of us are not full time religious personalities here on this forum. We all have families, jobs and more importantly life isn’t easy on us either. The dharma base constantly guides our life. In nutshell, a hindu adopts the doctrines of dharma, artha, kama and moksha. Karma, yoga, rebirth are some more equally essential doctrines. Some exceptionally knowledgeable hindus here have already made commentaries in many threads explaining what each and every word means.
Get over it please, you will not come back as a worm. Nor there is hell waiting for you/ me ever!! The heartless god doesn’t exist, by deduction it is the evangelist mullah who is the heartless one here. You wont take a rebirth as a worm going by your fondness for music, poetry and life itself. More importantly gifted with a seekers bend, I am sure you are like most humans out there who keep away from tamasic life. So whats it then now?
My feeling is, at least in the beginning you need a guru or a sampradaya. Look around in your physical environment for help and try not to talk to abrahamists who will certainly scare you, taking advantage of your concerns. Also explore websites googling ‘western’ and ‘white’ hindus, clearly a sense of camaraderie is the need of the hour. Send private mails to western hindus on this very forum and see if it helps. Sorry, I’m not this preachy usually but your worm phobia rattled me a bit and my dharma compelled me to respond. Its a free advice, hence you can toss it thru the window. Shanti. [/quote]

Charitra,

many thanks for your reply, and YES at 12 I was indeed much more fearless and resourceful! I need to rediscover my 12 yr old self again! I have allowed my "ingredients" to become tainted(much like what GM is doing to Nature)and I now need to clean out my cupboard. If I am honest it has been a weakness which has unsettled what I had when I was 12, and I realise this, especially so through your wise insight; so I thank you for taking the time to write to me. You don't sound "preachy" at all! Rest assured my worm phobia has been dealt with and I shall indeed follow up your suggestions, someone else recommended a site which I have visited -

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/

and it has struck a positive chord with me! So once again, many thanks for taking the time to post - it has helped immensely.

Namaste,

Lenny

Sahasranama
23 March 2011, 12:46 PM
Interesting opinions, I think I will be a millionaire by my next birthday in July, staying flat ass broke seems such a waste to me.

yajvan
23 March 2011, 01:50 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Lenny


I have believed in reincarnation since I was aged 12. However I believe humans return again as humans(either gender), and

Let me ask, who do you think is reincarnated.... what part of you? The 'Lenny' part , or another part. Which part of you 'died' ?
Something has to die to be reborn , no?

In the bhāgavad gītā Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in chapter 2, 12th śloka: there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men;
Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be.

Lenny, who ( or what) do you believe is coming back?


praṇām

Adhvagat
23 March 2011, 04:45 PM
Devotee,

thanks for your reply. I would like to make clear that I respect all life forms! From the worm right up to the Sun!
I have given much time to this question and I have decided that I will remain with my original belief that I will return in my next life as a human being. It has always felt right with me, and no matter how bad one's Karma is, returning as a worm or an ant(no disrespect to either), in my opinion would represent a waste of a life!

Namaste,

Lenny

Lenny, if one behaves like a worm (example, well, perhaps an extreme crack addict that gets high and sleep among the trash? Murdering for drug, not minding living among trash and excrement, is he different from a worm?), then he's wasting his life and if he leaves his body in this mindset, he'll go where HE WANTS, simple as that.

And the waste is the person to blame. Is it really hard to hold a concept of RESPONSIBILITY within spirituality?

The christian mindset of everyone's already saved by a person that died for our sins and we can even live a wreteched life and just repent next to our death bed turned everyone into spiritually spoiled children!

The Vedas have the decency to state that this responsibility starts when we first get this human form. We have great power with it while walking this Earth and with great power comes great responsibility. ;)

So let's compare the philosophies:

A person already died for your sins VS You take responsibility on your own acts

You'll always be a human no matter your mindset VS Your mindset determines your outer shell

The world, animals and everything on this Earth were given by god for human enjoyment VS The world is the great mother, a living being, should be respected and every living thing is an atma.

For me, it's clear that Dharmic life is the way out of this destructive mindset we are experiencing right now in the world.

Om Tat Sat

billhicks4Pope
24 March 2011, 11:11 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Lenny



Let me ask, who do you think is reincarnated.... what part of you? The 'Lenny' part , or another part. Which part of you 'died' ?
Something has to die to be reborn , no?

In the bhāgavad gītā Kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in chapter 2, 12th śloka: there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men;
Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be.

Lenny, who ( or what) do you believe is coming back?


praṇām

yajvan,

only the physical dies! The soul, spirit, or awareness survives.

I have had brief experiences of total freedom away from the limits of the physical body which have been wonderful happenings! I know that I am not my physical body but I have use of it during my earthly existence, and when it expires my awareness/spirit/soul survives.

Namaste,

Lenny

billhicks4Pope
24 March 2011, 11:23 AM
Lenny, if one behaves like a worm (example, well, perhaps an extreme crack addict that gets high and sleep among the trash? Murdering for drug, not minding living among trash and excrement, is he different from a worm?), then he's wasting his life and if he leaves his body in this mindset, he'll go where HE WANTS, simple as that.

And the waste is the person to blame. Is it really hard to hold a concept of RESPONSIBILITY within spirituality?

The christian mindset of everyone's already saved by a person that died for our sins and we can even live a wreteched life and just repent next to our death bed turned everyone into spiritually spoiled children!

The Vedas have the decency to state that this responsibility starts when we first get this human form. We have great power with it while walking this Earth and with great power comes great responsibility. ;)

So let's compare the philosophies:

A person already died for your sins VS You take responsibility on your own acts

You'll always be a human no matter your mindset VS Your mindset determines your outer shell

The world, animals and everything on this Earth were given by god for human enjoyment VS The world is the great mother, a living being, should be respected and every living thing is an atma.

For me, it's clear that Dharmic life is the way out of this destructive mindset we are experiencing right now in the world.

Om Tat Sat

Greetings Pietro Impagliazzo!

Some excellent points have been brought out in this thread! I have been blessed to share in such wisdom, and love being a part of this forum!

I am not a christian! When I was 17/18 I did become a born again christian and survived for 18 months, I knew it was not for me! I could not, and would not relinquish my belief in reincarnation, and would not burn my rock albums! I was suffocated! Maybe though, subconsciously I have been affected, although I am taking measures to try and remedy this!

I am responsible for my actions, no one else, and have always believed so; even when I was a christian. I am now in my 51st year and am at this point in my life because of choices I have made. From here on in I hope to be more conscious of the decisions I make and not to fall into the prison of the ego!

Namaste,

Lenny

yajvan
24 March 2011, 12:55 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Lenny


yajvan,

only the physical dies! The soul, spirit, or awareness survives.

I have had brief experiences of total freedom away from the limits of the physical body which have been wonderful happenings! I know that I am not my physical body but I have use of it during my earthly existence, and when it expires my awareness/spirit/soul survives.


The only word I think you may wish to take a second look at is 'my'
The brain cramp that accompanies 'my' is the following. The spirit is not individualized into particles of humans. It is ubiquitous - there is no place it is not. The word in samskrt is satatoditam, without break or pause.
Yet people say but what of jīva ? It is the life force in you, the vital breath. Consider a big power station that delivers eletricity to your home. The power station has zillions of mega-watts of power, yet when it comes to light your home in one bulb it is now 60 watts of power, that is jīva , borrowed from the power station.


Hence if our core Being was never born nor dies, there is nothing to survive , no? So who comes and goes? The upaniṣad-s and the āgama-s assist us here, but will leave that for another time.

http://files.myopera.com/rfhurley/albums/475833/powerStation.jpg


praṇām

billhicks4Pope
24 March 2011, 02:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Lenny



The only word I think you may wish to take a second look at is 'my'
The brain cramp that accompanies 'my' is the following. The spirit is not individualized into particles of humans. It is ubiquitous - there is no place it is not. The word in samskrt is satatoditam, without break or pause.
Yet people say but what of jīva ? It is the life force in you, the vital breath. Consider a big power station that delivers eletricity to your home. The power station has zillions of mega-watts of power, yet when it comes to light your home in one bulb it is now 60 watts of power, that is jīva , borrowed from the power station.


Hence if our core Being was never born nor dies, there is nothing to survive , no? So who comes and goes? The upaniṣad-s and the āgama-s assist us here, but will leave that for another time.

http://files.myopera.com/rfhurley/albums/475833/powerStation.jpg


praṇām


I shall indeed drop "my"! I am awareness occupying a physical vessel to experience life on planet Earth.

Namaste,

Lenny

yajvan
24 March 2011, 03:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté Lenny



I shall indeed drop "my"! I am awareness occupying a physical vessel to experience life on planet Earth.


Yes, ridding one's self of 'my' 'me' is sādhana . I wish you well on your practice. I too am on the same road.

To know the world you forget the Self; to know the Self, you forget the world - śrī nisargadatta maharāj

praṇām

Adhvagat
25 March 2011, 12:30 AM
Yajvan, this matter reminds of a quote, not from a Hindu personality but interesting nonetheless:


Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart ... Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens. - Carl Gustav Jung

charlebs
01 April 2011, 09:18 AM
I have believed in reincarnation since I was aged 12. However I believe humans return again as humans(either gender), and animals return as animals(dogs as dogs, cats as cats etc). This is not what is taught within the Hare Krishna movement, so am I right or am I wrong? Its something I have accepted for 39yrs, and I find it difficult to visualise my next life as a cat or dog etc. Help required!

Namaste,

Lenny
everything depends on karma. the atlantian people always believed aliens came to help them. they were confused. the atlantian people still live in places we know.

but pure people like jesus and muhammed came to their rescue to gradually invite them into the world we know as hindu's. for all we know they were avatars of shiva and vishnu.
but people usually do not become animals until they fully realise their cruelty against animals. this is how karma works. you may have eaten meat like me but there is still always good hope that it is negated.

billhicks4Pope
01 April 2011, 10:13 PM
everything depends on karma. the atlantian people always believed aliens came to help them. they were confused. the atlantian people still live in places we know.

but pure people like jesus and muhammed came to their rescue to gradually invite them into the world we know as hindu's. for all we know they were avatars of shiva and vishnu.
but people usually do not become animals until they fully realise their cruelty against animals. this is how karma works. you may have eaten meat like me but there is still always good hope that it is negated.

I have ironed out my doubts regarding reincarnation and we return as a human being - for us humans, and animals remain within their own species; no crossing over! I am now sorted!!!

As regards jesus, well, I am not 100% certain he even existed! As for the new testament, sorry, I feel the gospels are fake. Something deeper may lie behind the stories, and their are many theories! I choose to leave christianity to the christians. As for mohammed, I don't like what I've read about they guy, under age marriage etc! Sorry, but I shall leave islam for the islams!

The Atlanteans, great topic! I believe we came from Mars, and elsewhere! Seriously! I like to think way outside the box! There are buildings/pyramids on Mars. Some of us came from Mars!

I am a vegetarian, and have been for about 5 yrs. I wish I had always been a non meat eater, but my parents were meat eaters and so I followed their lead. My daughter was the first veggie from our family, and it is thanks to her that both my wife and I are not meat eaters any more!

Namaste,

Lenny

TheOne
01 April 2011, 10:29 PM
everything depends on karma. the atlantian people always believed aliens came to help them. they were confused. the atlantian people still live in places we know.

but pure people like jesus and muhammed came to their rescue to gradually invite them into the world we know as hindu's. for all we know they were avatars of shiva and vishnu.
but people usually do not become animals until they fully realise their cruelty against animals. this is how karma works. you may have eaten meat like me but there is still always good hope that it is negated.


Your kidding...right? Do you really believe that Jesus and Muhammed especially are on par with Shiva and Vishnu's avatars? And what's this about Atlantians? I'm sorry we've had some "bad experiences" with some of those Atlantis believers. If you clarify your beliefs so we can understand you that would mean a lot.

charlebs
02 April 2011, 04:48 AM
I'm sorry, I don't believe much so I can't clarify much. I'm just talking about what I once read. :o

billhicks4Pope
02 April 2011, 01:16 PM
The One,

hi! I have a few thoughts on the Atlanteans(based on Edgar Cayce), but I've never fell out with anyone over them! Also, Plato has written about Atlantis, so please don't accuse everyone who believes in the Atlanteans as trouble rousers!

I believe we have various routes to how we came to live on this beautiful planet, one thought is that some of us are originally from Mars, and their are scientists who also share this school of thought.

Rudolf Steiner and Edgar Cayce have both written about the other planets in our Solar System, saying that they are there for a reason and that their are life forms on each planet, obviously they are not vibrating at the same frequency as those of us on Earth.

Everything and everyone has a purpose.

Namaste,

Lenny