LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

[Adhvagat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Bible

I was doing a little research on Satanic Bibles and ran into LaVeyan thoughts, after reading the tenets of it, It struck me how similar it is to Carvaka materialistic and hedonistic view of reality.


Indulgence NOT Compulsion

[...]

Satanism, as an atheistic religion, holds that as there is no afterlife and therefore no paradise or heaven or hell, all happiness and satisfaction must be attained here, on earth. LaVey therefore advises that you indulge to the greatest extent possible, how that your days on earth may be best spent.

[...]

It was also ironic how comprehensible its philosophy is regarding sexual impulses, as shown here:


Satanic Sex

Contrary to the popular opinion that Satanism advocates promiscuous behavior in all individuals, in this essay LaVey actually lambasts the "free love" movement (a movement very much in motion in the 1960s when LaVey wrote The Satanic Bible) as being equally restricting as the white-light view that any unholy sex is wrong.

LaVey's stance, once again, takes a purely individual approach to sexual matters and ethics. He maintains that while some people are indeed happy with sexual promiscuity, some are, by their nature, happier with much less sexual activity, or perhaps no sexual activity at all. LaVey believes that neither of these states are unnatural or deserving of condemnation, but rather that it is a decision for each individual to make concerning their own sexual tastes and activities.

[...]

So that makes one think that the mainstream cartoonish view of Satanism is nothing but a construct, an imposed dichotomy by the oversimplifying dualistic view forced down the world's throat by the catholic church.

Things are only dark when one doesn't shine a light on them, and that's exactly what the ignorant christian catholic mindset did, it's pretty interesting that both right and left-hand path are entertained in the light of Hinduism.

What are your thoughts?

Om Tat Sat

Related links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vamachara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path

[TheOne]

Much less harmful than Fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. Of course I don't think it's right per se but I do give it credit to stand up to the absurd arbitrary rules of Christianity.

[sanjaya]

I've read about this religion. While I'm no fan of Christianity, not everything that opposes it is necessarily good. Personally I can't see any redeeming attributes to a religion that glorifies the demonic figure of any other faith.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



What are your thoughts?

What you put your attention on grows stronger in your life.

IMHO this subject is not worthy of receiving 1/10,000th of ones awareness. I see no light here.

praṇām

[Sahasranama]

Charvaka has also influenced the Buddhist philosophers with ideas on momentariness. The nastika schools can be divided in hedonistic (charvaka), ascetic (Jain) and middle path (Buddhist) schools. It's maybe not a bad idea to know something about Charvaka, so that you can recognise it when you see it. As Pietro has made a good observation here, Satanism is a form of Charvaka philosophy that tells people to think only of the here and now.

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

I am of the same opinion as Yajvan in this case. Why bother going into depths about Satanism? To say it gave rise to Carvaka school of philosophy and tradition is as ignorant as saying Christianity and Judaism gave rise to Sanatana Dharma. I am not well versed on the precepts or creeds of the Satanic religion, but I will admit that yes, the Catholic Church and Christians in general have twisted the truth greatly as to their lifestyle and philosophies, depicting them as sex maniacs and psychopathic murderers. But hey, what religion hasn't been painted in a bad light by fundamental Christians?



Much less harmful than Fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. Of course I don't think it's right per se but I do give it credit to stand up to the absurd arbitrary rules of Christianity.


At the same time, I am doubtful as to whether many devout Satanists are really true Carvaka philosophers. I have read from other sources that some believe in chaos to be the true order of the universe and that all things arise from and in it (not sure how this fits in with LaVey's writings). I do remember reading some article that explained the tenets of Satanic lifestyle and reading that the ultimate end was to serve oneself. Yes, it seems like selfishness and "doing what you like" was the underlying message of Satanism; you are "God", so put yourself first. A bit removed from "tat tvam asi", wouldn't you agree? And while I hardly think it is a threat to dharma (whether Hinduism or any other spiritual school), to say it is not as bad as fundamental Christianity or Islam is bordering on the ludicrous. Yes, some of the more conservatist Abrahamic faiths can be extremely misguided and still "sleeping" (as Nayasurya often puts it), grossly misinterpreting their own scriptures and being blind to the truth in other faiths, but at least the key tenet of "serve others, love your neighbour, remember and give thanks to God" remains the same. Can you imagine a fundamental Satanist in that case, who works only for himself, feeding his ego and his greed until he has deemed to have lived his life to the full, and therefore considered it "meaningful" in his brief lifetime on earth? To say nothing of the destruction or the waste left in his wake in his path to self-fulfillment and self-aggrandizement. It is surely the antithesis of any religion, let alone Sanatana Dharma!

Om namah Shivaya

[Adhvagat]

Sunyata, my aim was never to compare or to say that one gave birth to another, but merely to point some observed similarities.

Good thing we have members to offer different points of view here. The inherent selfish nature of this philosophy is indeed not very healthy to society as a whole even though it tries to cover itself with some type of moral code.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



What you put your attention on grows stronger in your life.

IMHO this subject is not worthy of receiving 1/10,000th of ones awareness. I see no light here.

praṇām

Yajvan, what do you classify as light?

Isn't darkness also part of our existence and doesn't it also come from the supreme?

Om Tat Sat

[sanjaya]

Namaste,

I am of the same opinion as Yajvan in this case. Why bother going into depths about Satanism? To say it gave rise to Carvaka school of philosophy and tradition is as ignorant as saying Christianity and Judaism gave rise to Sanatana Dharma. I am not well versed on the precepts or creeds of the Satanic religion, but I will admit that yes, the Catholic Church and Christians in general have twisted the truth greatly as to their lifestyle and philosophies, depicting them as sex maniacs and psychopathic murderers. But hey, what religion hasn't been painted in a bad light by fundamental Christians?

And on this one rare instance I have to say: can we really blame them? Satan is a made up figure in Christianity meant to represent evil and unrighteousness. Satanism is a made up religion which venerates the made up evil figure of Christianity. It's roughly like a bunch of Indians getting together and inventing a religion where Ravana or Duryodhuna is depicted as God. Of course we're going to react negatively to the religion. I think Christianity is itself an immoral religion. But when you go and invent a religion specifically to anger Christians, it's not surprising that they're going to get angry. If the guy who invented Satanism just wanted to glorify hedonism and did not have it in mind to upset Christians, he wouldn't have named his religion Satanism.

So anyway, I really don't see any value in comparing our great Dharma to a religion such as this. All it's going to do is make some ignorant Westerners think that Hindus are a bunch of demon worshipers.

[TheOne]

Namaste,

I am of the same opinion as Yajvan in this case. Why bother going into depths about Satanism? To say it gave rise to Carvaka school of philosophy and tradition is as ignorant as saying Christianity and Judaism gave rise to Sanatana Dharma. I am not well versed on the precepts or creeds of the Satanic religion, but I will admit that yes, the Catholic Church and Christians in general have twisted the truth greatly as to their lifestyle and philosophies, depicting them as sex maniacs and psychopathic murderers. But hey, what religion hasn't been painted in a bad light by fundamental Christians?



At the same time, I am doubtful as to whether many devout Satanists are really true Carvaka philosophers. I have read from other sources that some believe in chaos to be the true order of the universe and that all things arise from and in it (not sure how this fits in with LaVey's writings). I do remember reading some article that explained the tenets of Satanic lifestyle and reading that the ultimate end was to serve oneself. Yes, it seems like selfishness and "doing what you like" was the underlying message of Satanism; you are "God", so put yourself first. A bit removed from "tat tvam asi", wouldn't you agree? And while I hardly think it is a threat to dharma (whether Hinduism or any other spiritual school), to say it is not as bad as fundamental Christianity or Islam is bordering on the ludicrous. Yes, some of the more conservatist Abrahamic faiths can be extremely misguided and still "sleeping" (as Nayasurya often puts it), grossly misinterpreting their own scriptures and being blind to the truth in other faiths, but at least the key tenet of "serve others, love your neighbour, remember and give thanks to God" remains the same. Can you imagine a fundamental Satanist in that case, who works only for himself, feeding his ego and his greed until he has deemed to have lived his life to the full, and therefore considered it "meaningful" in his brief lifetime on earth? To say nothing of the destruction or the waste left in his wake in his path to self-fulfillment and self-aggrandizement. It is surely the antithesis of any religion, let alone Sanatana Dharma!

Om namah Shivaya

By respect, I certainly didn't mean I admire or would encourage someone to practice this philosophy. But I do believe that "satanism"(I believe hedonism better describes it) makes good philosophical points for the west that you shouldn't blindly follow something but you should make the choice yourself to follow it. You say it's not as bad as Fundamentalist Christianity but I say this. Does Leveyan satanism prosletize? No. Does it claim authority on the truth? No. Does it compare to the number of killings Christianity had? Not even close.

I do certainly believe they are misguided because they think "doing whatever you want" will make one forever happy which I think is absurd because they will one day suffer the karmic consequences of wasting their human life.

PS: Sanjaya, who cares what "Christians" think? They already think we're "destined for hell" does it matter to use what their opinion is. No it does not. A person who spent literally 30 minutes looking up the tenets of Hinduism knows that we are NOT demon worshiping sodomites. But research and fact checking are things most Fundamentalist Christians rarely do.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté PI



Yajvan, what do you classify as light?
Isn't darkness also part of our existence and doesn't it also come from the supreme? Om Tat Sat

Darkness is the absence of light...prakāśa = clearness , brightness , splendor , luster , light.

Darkness as negativity is not a part of our true nature.
We see the Supreme called out again and again as luster, purity, light:


dīpajyotiḥ paraṁ brahma dīpajyotirparameśvaraḥ |
dīpo me haratu pāpaṁ dīpajyotirnamo'stu te ||

the light of the lamp is paraṁ brahma ...as parameśvaraḥ


vakratuṇḍa mahākāya
sūryakoṭi samaprabhā |
nirvighnam kurumedeva
sarakāryeśu sarvadā ||

vakratuṇḍa (or ganeṣa, the one with the curved tusk) is a bright as a million suns (sūryakoṭi)



śuklāṃ baradharaṃ viṣṇuṃ śaśivarṇam caturbhujam |
prasannavadanaṃ dhyāyet sarva vighnopaśāntaye ||
agajānana padmārkaṃ gajānana maharniśam |
anekadantaṃ bhaktānā-mekadanta-mupāsmahe ||


viṣṇu - śhuklām baradharam
śhukla - is pure, spotless; white
ambara is clothes , apparel , garment ; it is also the sky, the atmosphere, and ākāśa ( pure unfilled space ~ether~).
dhara - is holding, supporting, wearing, possessing; bearer, supporter.



For me I put no attention on the darkness. Perhaps it may be for others. I choose not to be part of it.


praṇām

[Sahasranama]

Any religion, ideology, philosophy is going to have people who disagree with the central ideas. Sometimes the rulers of countries try to impose religion on the people and prosecute them. In the west this was done by Abrahamics, in the East mostly by the Buddhists. Buddhism has always been a proselytising religion just like Christianity. Hinduism has never prosecuted religious heretics like the nastikas who have diametrically opposed themselves from the Hindu religion. One influential 7th century Buddhist philosopher, Dharmakirti even wrote a stanza saying:

वेद प्रामाण्यं कस्य चित् कर्तृवादः स्नाने धर्मेच्छा जातिवादाव लेपः|
संतापारंभः पापहानाय चेति ध्वस्तप्रज्ञानां पञ्च लिङगानि जाड्ये||

"Believing that the Veda are standard (holy or divine), believing in a Creator for the world, Bathing in holy waters for gaining punya, having pride (vanity) about one's caste, Performing penance to absolve sins, Are the five symptoms of having lost one's sanity."

Hindus have not stoned the Buddhist or Charvakas to death, but rather have contemplated and debates these ideas. The Charvakas pose a question for example "if the sacrificial animal goes to heaven, why don't you sacrifice your own father?" I don't know all the debates that have gone on about this question, but interestingly we can find a answer from saint Tulasi Dasa, probably unintented, in the Rama Charita Manasa: "with great fortune have we obtained this human body which is even hard to obtain for the gods as is sung in all the scriptures." Bare bhaga manusha tana pava, sura durlabha saba granthanhi gava.

You can say that Buddhist were acting similar to the Satanists, at the one hand appropiating a lot from a particular religion and at the other hand opposing strongly to its central ideas. Hindus have not seen any crime in this and therefore nastikas were never prosecuted for their religion, although Hindus have debated their ideas fiercly. Buddhism (in Asia), Islam in the (middle east) and Christianity (in the west) though have taken militairy offence of heathen ideas. Luckily the Dalai Lama in India is now making statements against proselytising.

What I think is interesting is that all these nastika philosophies have a central theme of momentariness whether they are ascetic or hedonistic, while Hinduism (and maybe Taoism also) places emphasis on the eternity of the Self. As Krishna says in the Gita there was never a time nor will there ever be a time when I nor you did not or will not exist. While in the Abrahamic religions the self is created by a God and a soul is something given to you by God. Christians have this belief that you can sell your soul to the devil, this idea does not make sense in Hinduism.

An interesting parallel in ideology between the Buddhists and the Epicureans is the attitude of "why bother?" when it comes to questions about the existence of gods or of Brahman, since in their view "living in the moment" is all important as a remedy to relieve suffering. This train of thought was present both in ancient India and in the west.

yawad jiwet sukham jivet rinam kritva gritam pivet bhasmibhutasya dehasya punaragamaya kim?

From Charvaka: As long as you live, create debt and drink ghee, when the body has turned to ashes how can you come back?

..sapias, vina liques, et spatio brevispem longam reseces. dum loquimur, fugerit invidaaetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero...

From the Epicurean poet, Horace: be wise, strain the wine, and scale back your long hopes, to a short period. While we speak, envious time will have {already} fled, Seize the day, trusting as little as possible in the future.

See also the topic on Kshana Bhangavada and Shankara's argumentation, (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=49370&postcount=1) all the darshanas of Hinduism (astika) disagree with kshana bhangavada or theory of momentariness, maybe that's why its called Sanatana Dharma.

[sunyata07]

By respect, I certainly didn't mean I admire or would encourage someone to practice this philosophy. But I do believe that "satanism"(I believe hedonism better describes it) makes good philosophical points for the west that you shouldn't blindly follow something but you should make the choice yourself to follow it. You say it's not as bad as Fundamentalist Christianity but I say this. Does Leveyan satanism prosletize? No. Does it claim authority on the truth? No. Does it compare to the number of killings Christianity had? Not even close.



Namaste TheOne,

I agree that the term Satanism has been poorly chosen. As Sanjaya was saying, naming a philosophy and lifestyle after the demonic force of Christianity is hardly going to get you started on the right foot! Even Jews who see Satan as more of a force of maya (to delude thinking and cause people to go astray, rather than amass an army to "fight" God), would hardly have this title sit right with them. But you do make good points on that, otherwise.

Om namah Shivaya

[sanjaya]

PS: Sanjaya, who cares what "Christians" think? They already think we're "destined for hell" does it matter to use what their opinion is. No it does not. A person who spent literally 30 minutes looking up the tenets of Hinduism knows that we are NOT demon worshiping sodomites. But research and fact checking are things most Fundamentalist Christians rarely do.

Well I for one care what Christians think, because I live in America and America is run by Christians. For the moment the evangelicals in my country are at war with Islam, and our religion isn't really on their radar. But there are already evangelicals out there who try to stop the construction of Hindu temples, curtail the expression of Hinduism in public schools, and otherwise keep Hindus out of American public life. As an American citizen I care what Christians think, because otherwise they will discriminate against me on the basis that I am Indian and Hindu, and it can have a noticeable impact on my ability to freely practice Hinduism.

As a secondary concern: Christians have not only political power, but economic power as well. They regularly use their money to send missionaries to India to convert Hindus, as well as to run "college ministry" to Hindus by which they convert both American Hindus and international students. As long as they think that we are some kind of devil worshiper, they'll be able to rally more Americans to their cause to bring India out of the alleged darkness of Satan. That's why I want to do everything I can to show that Hinduism has nothing to do with Satanic worship, and that we don't approve of such idiocy. The theologians will continue to decry Hinduism as a false religion. But when the average American Christian sees that we are honest devotees of God who do not worship any sort of demons, maybe said Christian will think twice about jumping on the plane to India to tear Hindus from our religion.

Remember: most Christians don't spend thirty minutes researching Hinduism. The few that do are so blinded by their unquestioned faith that they don't believe what the encyclopedia tells them. They sit in churches all day listening to pastors talk about the darkness that supposedly grips India. All they need to hear is one Hindu say something positive about Satanism and that view will be forever cemented in their minds. Why should we care? Because they have money and power, and we don't.

Hence why I have nothing good to say about Satanism. As far as I can tell, it's an idiotic religion for idiotic people who want to rebel against their Catholic parents. Seriously, who goes and announces to the world that he worships a fictitious demon who's going to burn him in hell?

[TheOne]

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."


This quote was said by a German Priest in regards to the Nazis. We can think that Christianity is involved with a battle with Islam. Yeah sure, for the time being. But once they get over that they have to have a new "enemy" to "turn to the light". I have a strong feeling it will be mainly misguided New Agers tied in with that any "Pagan" religion.


What use of it is to "appease the Christian" yes, I live in America, yes every day I see absurd instances of Western superiority. Appeasing them will never solve the problem. What Christians think about Hindus has no impact one a persons personal devotion to God.


As for Levayan Satanism being "worshipping the devil" you obviously didn't read the first post or research on the internet what Levay's philosophy was.

Christians worship a God who is ready to torture people for all eternity for not worshiping him.



You think Christians don't already think we are demon worshipers. Look at these pictures comparing Kali to Jesus. A comparison which is almost laughable if they weren't so serious about it

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=154693714574850&set=a.154693684574853.38925.139247422786146

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=175366312507590&set=a.174277929283095.47407.139247422786146

[sanjaya]

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."


This quote was said by a German Priest in regards to the Nazis. We can think that Christianity is involved with a battle with Islam. Yeah sure, for the time being. But once they get over that they have to have a new "enemy" to "turn to the light". I have a strong feeling it will be mainly misguided New Agers tied in with that any "Pagan" religion.


What use of it is to "appease the Christian" yes, I live in America, yes every day I see absurd instances of Western superiority. Appeasing them will never solve the problem. What Christians think about Hindus has no impact one a persons personal devotion to God.

Would you walk into a Nazi bar wearing a kippah and tefillin? Standing up to the bad guy is only beneficial when you win.

Anyway, I think I may not have communicated clearly this time. Appeasement isn't what I suggest here, only a legitimate emphasis on the fact that Hinduism has nothing to do with Satanism, LaVeyan or otherwise. Supporting Satanists isn't going to do anything to advance Hinduism's reputation among anyone. It's such a small movement that it can't effectively fight Christianity in America. If you wanted to make a deal with the devil (so to speak), the New Atheists movement would be a better choice. They're the ones stealing the most souls from churches these days. Not that I'm too keen on the idea of supporting atheists either.

What I'm saying is that this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" theory doesn't work. Christianity is bad, but not everything anti-Christian is good. Islam is a great example. Here in the West Muslims are being persecuted. But if you started donating money to mosques, some of it would likely go to Muslims in India who bomb Hindus. We would do better to support our fellow Hindus than to pretend that there's any value in things like Satanism.



As for Levayan Satanism being "worshipping the devil" you obviously didn't read the first post or research on the internet what Levay's philosophy was.

I am indeed aware that LaVeyan Satanism does not involve actual worship of any Satan figure, and that it is effectively a theory of hedonism. But let's face it: Satanism in any form isn't a serious religion. Every person I know who claims to be a Satanist (which amounts to three people) is a spoiled rich kid who hates his parents and dresses up in all black. With a name like Satanism, they might as well have called it "the un-Christianity." And might I suggest that what the philosophy really entails is irrelevant to how we ought to relate to it. The fact of the matter is that most Americans who hear of this religion will think of people conducting some Black Mass and hailing Satan. So in the name of not caring what Christians think, do we go around proclaiming "we worship demons?"

One might claim not to care what anyone else thinks, but taken to its extreme this is psychopathy. The world is interconnected, and Christians' opinions of us matter to some extent or another. I for one would not want them to think that I am a demon worshiper, especially since it isn't true. Misrepresenting Hinduism to please evangelical Christians would be appeasement. What I am asking is that we portray Hinduism to them as it truly is. Hindus don't worship demons, so we should make sure that evangelical Christians know this. Hindus who say good things about Satanism is why Jack Chick is able to publish those tracts portraying Hinduism as demonic. Let's not also forget that it alienates the few decent, non-evangelical Christians out there, who have no more love for Satan than their fundamentalist counterparts. Why give them cause to wonder if maybe the fundamentalists are right about us?


Christians worship a God who is ready to torture people for all eternity for not worshiping him.

But Satanists named their religion after someone who supposedly does the same thing (the Christian theology of Satan is far more complicated than this, but you get the idea). I believe that Dharma is the cure to Christianity, not some stupid religion for angry teenagers.


You think Christians don't already think we are demon worshipers. Look at these pictures comparing Kali to Jesus. A comparison which is almost laughable if they weren't so serious about it

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=154693714574850&set=a.154693684574853.38925.139247422786146

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=175366312507590&set=a.174277929283095.47407.139247422786146

I saw this one time when a Christian tried to convert me. Read the whole thing before tossing it, and you're right that it's laughable. The question is: are you going to let the Christians continue in their delusion? Or are you going to combat it? If you call Christians ignorant for equating Kali with Satan while simultaneously singing the praises of a religion called "Satanism," how is any reasonable person going to interpret this?

Or worse, how is an evangelical Christian, who by definition is unreasonable, going to react?

[TheOne]

I certainly hope no one was believing I was singing praises of Satanism as that was certainly not my intent. :headscratch:


Of course I would prefer that Christians be educated about Dharma rather than be ignored entirely but education should be education and I certainly believe that many "un-Christian" religions are yes, embraced by angsty teenagers(may my hypocritical tongue be burned :p) but some of them raise valid points against Christianity and some of them are misguided Dharmics(New Agers, Wiccans, Druidism) but those are few and many of them are corrupted too by the "un-Christianity" movement. Yes, I do believe that Levayan Satinism is a rebellion against Christianity a righteous rebel? No. But a rebel with a cause? Yes.

I'm sorry I confused you with a few of my points I was just attempting to show that while we should not associate with Satanists in any fashion we should certainly not chastise them for rebelling against Christianity.

[Sahasranama]

If you look at that picture comparing Kali Ma and Jesus, who do you worship? Of course I'll worship Kali Ma before a bearded man in a robe who walks in a park holding someone else's kid's hand.:rolleyes:

On a more serious note, those pictures show a lot of quotes from the Bible. If we think about it some of them are so ingrained in our culture even in Indian culture. It's good to read them so that you can recognise them when you see them.

Bible: The love for money is the root of all evil.

Counter argument: The lack of money is the root of all evil... :p

It's kinda sad though to see that these evangelicals are even fighting catholics who worship images. They are similar to the Arya Samajists in Hinduism. For those who don't know, these evangelicals have actually influenced neo-Hindu movements like Arya Samaj who are now abrahamics in disguise fighting against murti puja and our devatas and devis and turning the vedas into the bible and koran. Even if all the evangelics left Bharata, they have people on the inside doing their job. The evangelics only convert stupid people, but the Arya Samaj take their share from the pseudo-intellectuals.

[Adhvagat]

I certainly hope no one was believing I was singing praises of Satanism as that was certainly not my intent. :headscratch:

Burn him! :mad:

I've been reading the Malleus Maleficarum lately. Anyone who wants to know more about the madness that christianity was founded upon should read it.

It's a clear evidence of how christianity turned into a misoginistic crusade against the female essence. This didn't resulted in just oppresion of women, but also ruthless treatment of the world, the great mother.


http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=154693714574850&set=a.154693684574853.38925.139247422786146

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=175366312507590&set=a.174277929283095.47407.139247422786146

Anyone who's a Hindu and visits here, please flag these photos for offensive material.

[TheOne]

I used to be in "one of those types of Christians". A few summers ago at a Christian camp I vaguely remember some women telling a story about how a girl was "saved by Jesus" in India and saved from forced prostitution in a Hindu temple. I believed it. My young and impressionable mind had that image impressed into it.

It's not the preaching that Christians do, I can just ignore that or disprove them in arguments. It's them literally EXPLOITING children to gain more followers. It's absolutely sickening that they teach their children how "Hindoos are satan worshippers, along with Muslims. But the Jews are children of God and anyone who offends them is an enemy of God". That is literally what they taught.

I have no love of people who are rebellious just to be rebellious but I truly feel that the Neo-pagan, Satanist, New Age, etc. etc. are a misguided but genuine rebellion against the sick practices that take place in Christianity.


Just my take on things.

[Adhvagat]

Movie recommendation: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/

[TheOne]

I knew exactly what movie that was before I clicked(psychic perhaps :p)

But seriously, I saw some of that movie and I think it is an incredibly accurate portrayal of protestant Christianity in America. They mix politics, religion, and singing/dancing to make a deadly cocktail that brainwashes kids and turns them into zombies saying that they love Jesus and if you don't love Jesus you must love the Devil.

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste Sanjaya,

You raise some good points. Last year when a fundamentalist Christian was trying to convert me he pretty much said that he thinks Hindu deities are demons. Then towards the end (mainly out of frustration) I just said "If you think the deities I pray to are demons, then I'm proud to say to you that I worship demons."

I think that most mainstream Christians don't think that our Hindu deities are demons. They just believe that they don't exist. Which I guess is reasonable, considering that they aren't Hindus. But certainly most fundamentalists think our deities are demons. On one hand I don't really care about what they think, but on the other hand that is a highly insulting something to believe. As I said, I suppose it's reasonable if they believe our deities just plain don't exist, but to think they are demons (the worst things in their religion) is very demeaning.

There probably are some mainstream Christians out there who think we worship demons, and I agree that we should try to persuade them otherwise when we encounter them. But that's only because they are mainstream Christians and at least have some degree of rationality and compassion. But I don't really see a point in trying to convince fundamentalist Christians otherwise. They are just too absorbed in their ignorance, hatred, and superiority complex. Especially if one of them tries converting me again, I would just say "I am proud to worship what you call demons" again. It would certainly scare them off and save me the time and pain of dealing with their conversion attempts :)

Jai Sri Ram

[sunyata07]

Namaste Ramakrishna,

I was just about to bring this point up. The majority of Christians or peoples of a Christian type background would probably consider Hindu deities in an impassive manner. To them, most likely the Devas don't exist as individual deities who all have Their parts to play in the universe, but of course this comes from branding Hinduism as polytheistic, rather than panentheistic. As for the fundamentals who claim our Gods are demons, who gives a hoot anymore? Every other religious and non-religious peoples in the world already are aware of that "my way or the highway" attitude they exude to all other spiritualities.

Also, Sanjaya, I agree with many of the points on your last post.

Om namah Shivaya

[Adhvagat]

I thought I had opened a can of worms, but I opened a can of interesting points of view.

You guys make me proud. :)

[smaranam]

Namaste



I think that most mainstream Christians don't think that our Hindu deities are demons. They just believe that they don't exist. Which I guess is reasonable, considering that they aren't Hindus.

Jai Sri Ram

So does this imply that it is NOT reasonable if one claims to be a "devout" Hindu (not by birth but by spirituality) , accepts the Vedic scriptures (and BG !), and yet believes the devtAs, Parameshwar are non-existent ? Which bucket do these fall under ? Our deities are not very easy to understand with a rational mind. However, these are the buckets

1. NAstik Atheist - no
2. NAstik Agnostic - no
3. Astik Theist - no
4. Astik Atheist ? sadly yes.

If one points out that it is very very hard to understand our devtAs rationally, which is true, most Hindus would take a humble stand:

"Parmeshwar and devtAs all look like invisible pink unicorns to me. I do not understand them at all rationally. But, i love visible living entities, quantum mechanics, string theory, the vedic wisdom is good, it tells me that i shall keep reaping my karma as long as i identify with this body. Vedas tell me Parmeshwar is kind and will not punish me for not understanding Him or calling Him a pink unicorn. I will not be sent to a "hell", but am on my own (KrshNa says in BG that He keeps them in the same consciousness as long as they want to be there). So as long as i think He is a unicorn, and pink or magenta or blue, and as long as i cannot see Him, i shall simply ignore Him, and go my way"

Otherwise it is like grabbing the patent of an invention, and denying the inventor's existence. Cruder example: Saying PCs and Windows are the best but Bill Gates never existed. Now please don't attack this example - i said it is a crude example. Nevertheless, see how many regular Microsoft users keep cursing Bill Gates - this is not just Kali Yug, but the mentality described in BG as well.

Jai Shri KRushNa

praNAm

[TheOne]

Smaranam,

You continue to try to enforce your viewpoint. You are saying the gods cannot be understood with a rational mind, then what can they be understood with an insane mind?

Your idea of "non-existance" and my ideas of "non-existance" you believe me and others to say that the Devas are nothing and they hold no place in any space or time while I meant that rather than being anthromorphic gods they are forces of consciousness able to manifest in places or time.

Yes beyond all that, the forces of consiousness themself are part of the infinite Brahman. And that infinite Brahman is in each of us. So yes, it's quite logical and many scholars have said the Gods are in each of us. And every atom of the universe.

[Adhvagat]

Insane is not the opposite of Rational. This is a flawed conception based on an illuministic view that only logic is a valid way of perceiving life.

The opposite of Rational is Emotional, just like the opposite of a Sensation is Intuition.

Jung used to say that the irrational life has the same right to be lived as the rational life. Irrational would involve religion and its inate nature to deal with symbols of transcendece and archetypes of the unconscious.

However the Vedas never cease to amaze as they offer philosophical and religious material for both Rationality and Irrationality. Veda is indeed complete within itself.


My example concerns a young woman patient who, in spite of efforts made on both sides, proved to be psychologically inaccessible. The Difficulty lay in the fact that she always knew better about everything. Her excellent education had provided her with a weapon ideally suited to this purpose, namely a highly polished Cartesian rationalism with an impeccably "geometrical" idea of reality. After several fruitless attempts to sweeten her rationalism with a somewhat more human understanding, I had to confine myself to the hope that something unexpected and irrational would turn up, something that burst the intellectual retort into which she had sealed herself. Well, I was sitting opposite of her one day, with my back to the window, listening to her flow of rhetoric. She had an impressive dream the night before, in which someone had given her a golden scarab-a costly piece of jewellery. While she was still telling me this dream, I heard something behind me gently tapping on the window. I turned round and saw that it was a fairly large flying insect that was knocking against the window from outside in the obvious effort to get into the dark room. This seemed to me very strange. I opened the window and immediately and caught the insect in the air as it flew in. It was a scarabaeid beetle, or common rose-chafer, whose gold-green color most nearly resembles that of a golden scarab. I handed the beetle to my patient with the words "Here is your scarab." This broke the ice of her intellectual resistance. The treatment could now be continued with satisfactory results.

Source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Carl_Jung#Synchronicity:_An_Acausal_Connecting_Principle_.281960.29

[TheOne]

I agree Pierto except I believe the opposite of rational is intuitive. Both of which are extremely important for humanity but having one without the other is often absurd and sometimes dangerous.

I think the Daoists cultivated intuitive thought very well. And I agree that moksha is indeed possible through intuitive thought because the Vedas cater to intuitive people as well. But I myself have structured/rational/Jnana inclination toward the divine. The only problem I have is when someone says "their way" of connecting with the divine is better than any other way.

[skanthan]

I've read about this religion. While I'm no fan of Christianity, not everything that opposes it is necessarily good. Personally I can't see any redeeming attributes to a religion that glorifies the demonic figure of any other faith.

I agree with you. Satanism is a very evil religion and I find that having an interest in Satanism distateful. To read about it in a newspaper or magazine or to hear about it in the news is one thing. But to take actual interest in it, that is pretty disturbing. :(

[Adhvagat]

I agree with you. Satanism is a very evil religion and I find that having an interest in Satanism distateful. To read about it in a newspaper or magazine or to hear about it in the news is one thing. But to take actual interest in it, that is pretty disturbing. :(

Evil does not go away by pretending it does not exist.

How can we be good if we don't have a definite idea of what is evil?


One does not become enlightned by imaging figures of light, but by bringing light into darkness. - Carl Gustav Jung

What is devilish in us? What is asuric inside of this shell? When we think evil is on another person, we're looking with the wrong perspective, first by opening space for evil to grow unnoticed in the corners of our own minds and second by missing that the other is also a representation of ourselves.

[Mana]

Namasté

There are some who believe Satanism to have been invented by the church as a reason to stop scientists meeting to discus subjects considered heresy. Such as Galileo claiming that the earth is not at the centre of the solar system.

So Satanism only exists because the church required it. The thing is with this kind of manipulation; the idea cannot be undone and the belief in time propagates its self. Such is the reflective nature of ideas and thoughts.

Lucifer, translated from Latin means "light bearer".


Pranam

Mana

[Mana]

It is worth noting that, the presence of an enormous carving of a man ruthlessly nailed to a cross is enough to discourage all but the most discerning Guru from the desire to illuminate.

It is of interest to me that many of the "mentaly ill" in Abrahamic culture associate them selves with either being Jesus or the Antichrist. The very doctrine leads to the internment of these future light bringers.

Does the doctrine create the pathology?

Mana

[sunyata07]

It is of interest to me that many of the "mentaly ill" in Abrahamic culture associate them selves with either being Jesus or the Antichrist. The very doctrine leads to the internment of these future light bringers.

Namaste Mana,

An interesting point you bring up. I was going to post a thread about a friend of mine who is going through a bad mental time right now, and was recently admitted to hospital to deal with a bad episode of mania. She's been very religious all her life, and is what you'd probably call an orthodox Christian. I'm trying to keep an eye on her with emails and text messages, and I'm rather alarmed to hear she keeps talking about having "conversations" with Jesus and God. Somehow I don't get the feeling she means just ordinary prayer.

This is obviously just a minor example I'm sharing. There have been much worse examples than this where mental illness is able to reach out on a communal scale and affect many lives. One calls to mind the Jonestown Massacre, for instance.

Om namah Shivaya

[smaranam]

I'm rather alarmed to hear she keeps talking about having "conversations" with Jesus and God. Somehow I don't get the feeling she means just ordinary prayer.
Om namah Shivaya

Why Shunyata ?

[Mana]

I am sorry to hear of your friends difficulty, having been there my self I truly understand the pain that this situation can cause.

"Mania" can be very difficult to deal with although it affects everybody in different ways. It is always difficult for the family and those closest to the individual as the fire which ravages the soul cleanses the individual they may well lash out at people close to them for being the source of certain issues and the truth often hurts. There maybe a logic from the unravelling of local Karma behind both the actions and speech.

The appearance of "grace" or as I prefer to call it "self similarity". Is explained by the inexperienced to those around them who; to them have little understanding due to a slower mental functioning, this is worked around by making giant short-cuts in explanation.
There could be a very long justification made by the very thought process that has inspired this rising of energy. Just as a word is a short cut for explaining mental forms and complex operations.

She may be talking metaphorically even subconsciously of the knowledge she is gaining from her experience. She may also be truly hearing a voice, the subconscious creative mind is more than capable of this, there is Satva, Rajas and Tamas in all the states. If your friend is Satva predominant due to her belief system she should be fine through all this however Tamas may still take effect and cause delusion, this is perfectly normal and something that she can work on later.

As smaranam has pointed out, don't allow your self to be alarmed by this your friend IS talking to Jesus, Jesus is an enormous part of her Dharma and is at this time very much protecting her.

Materialist in this circumstance ruin there businesses and relationships destroy friendships and generally create random havoc depending upon what they truly worship.

All characteristics of personality and Beliefs are magnified at this time.

My advice in this situation is to avoid all medication from the doctors and find two very close friends of the individual and set up a 24h guard never leaving her alone. The energy will in time subside as she works though the Karma. Medication will stop it in its tracks but will resolve nothing so at the next possible occasion the energy will rise again. sleep deprivation causes instant delusion, the excitement caused by her new discovery's and messages may stop her from wanting to sleep. She needs a mentor to diffuse this energy and excitement. maybe she has a priest who is up to the job, although I doubt it will be easy to find any with the understanding and empathy to her situation able to help. It must be someone with insight into here thoughts.

Go and see her if you can, language is so ambiguous especialy to someone who is functioning within this plane. Body language and contact is so very important. Try to follow her line of thought. Try to understand what she is truly trying to convey, it is "sane" peoples inability to empathise and understand which leads to the ticket "deluded".

Know that this energy is responsible for the evolution of intelligence and creativity in mankind duly it must be be treated with the utmost respect.

I believe that Cults are caused by misunderstanding of these forces within the community, this misunderstanding, ignoring, and general ignorance are what create the space by Adharma within Dharma for cults to emerge.

Psychopaths do not have the empathy required for this kind of energy rising, they can however imitate it. This is why it is vital that this effect not be ignored or belittled as illness. In doing so it becomes easier to fake in the consequent Adharma.

Mystifying these forces amplifies them, ignoring them gives them free chaotic reign. Treating them with respect solidifies Dharma and stimulates spiritual growth.

The more it is suppressed as an expression of the human unified subconscious the more individual cases will arise.

Your friend is lucky to have you.

Good luck and God go with you, please feel free to contact me for any further thoughts on this matter.


Pranam

Mana

[sunyata07]

Originally Posted by sunyata07 http://hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=71353#post71353)
I'm rather alarmed to hear she keeps talking about having "conversations" with Jesus and God. Somehow I don't get the feeling she means just ordinary prayer.
Om namah Shivaya
Why Shunyata ?


Namaste Smaranam & Mana,

I am alarmed because she is a very dear friend of mine, and before this incident I would have described her as one of the most positive, confident and grounded people I know. It goes without saying that to see her mental health take a sudden turn for the worst is distressing. Before it was she who helped and supported me whenever my moods were low; I had no clue how the roles had been reversed for a while. I even felt very guilty for not forseeing such things.

Her faith in God is very important to her, and I am probably one of the few people she feels safe enough to talk to about it without materialists and those less spiritual/religious writing her off as mentally unstable or the rantings of a lunatic. I do not mean to say I am alarmed because she talks to Jesus. Not at all. But her way of describing these conversations is not lucid because of the amount of medication she has been given. She's made associations between herself and baby Jesus, which is unusual from a Christian perspective. I have never been able to approve of giving drugs to "fix" mental health problems, mostly because I feel in a lot of cases it causes more suffering for the person and those around them than it does them good.

Mana, thanks for your post. I am going to try my best to organise a visit to her soon and hopefully see how things are really with her at the moment.

Om namah Shivaya