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murugan
25 March 2011, 03:17 AM
Is there a hierarchy amongst the Gods and Goddesses?

Eastern Mind
25 March 2011, 07:51 AM
Vannakkam murugan: That would all depend on which sect you talk to. Some have different (in name at least) supreme Gods, while others say all are essentially the same. Hinduism is vast, and people's ideas on it vary. What do you personally think? I'm not asking because I want to start up some argument, but because you're South Indian Tamil I think, I'd like to know.

Aum Namasivaya

sanjaya
25 March 2011, 09:30 AM
My parents always used to tell me that Lord Vishnu was considered supreme amongst the Gods. But only recently I found that some believe the same of Lord Shiva. Correct me if I'm wrong EM, but don't most South Indian Tamils hold to the latter view?

As you know I'm also one myself. But maybe Tamil Brahmins in general tend towards Vaishnava.

Eastern Mind
25 March 2011, 09:44 AM
My parents always used to tell me that Lord Vishnu was considered supreme amongst the Gods. But only recently I found that some believe the same of Lord Shiva. Correct me if I'm wrong EM, but don't most South Indian Tamils hold to the latter view?

As you know I'm also one myself. But maybe Tamil Brahmins in general tend towards Vaishnava.

Vannakkam Sanjaya: Certainly I believe the same of Lord Shiva. So would communities around Tanjore, Chidambaram, Arunaleshwarar etc. but statistically I really have no idea. You find great monuments and movements towards both. Then there are the Smarta Brahmins who would worship both together, or as different forms of the same. (Ultimately on a very deep level that's how I would see it too, but external bhakti, no) . In Sri Lanka, there are way more Siva koyils than Vishnu ones. I think someone like Saidevo would have a better idea. But its all a fine line, especially in Smartism where one can have the ishta of Parameshwara, yet on a couple of fundamental points, disagree with a Saivite.

I personally see Siva as supreme, and Murugan and Ganesha as really big helpers. But I would be in a minority group.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
25 March 2011, 10:31 AM
........But I would be in a minority group.
EM, one thing that we Indian Hindus have been taught/trained for generations is to appease the minorities at all costs. In keeping with that tradition, I will agree with your viewpoint. ;)

sanjaya
25 March 2011, 10:36 AM
EM, one thing that we Indian Hindus have been taught/trained for generations is to appease the minorities at all costs. In keeping with that tradition, I will agree with your viewpoint. ;)

Careful, if you guys cease to be the minority you'll lose your power. :)

yajvan
25 March 2011, 10:56 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Yet at the end of the day, we're talking about different qualties of the
the one Parabrahman परब्रह्मन्. It is the Supreme, the unsurpassable (anuttara).
We view and adore this Supreme based upon our capacity - viṣṇu , śiva, all forms of pārvatī.

Who am I to say this? I am no-one, with no credentials.
I look to the wise: ṛg ved I.164.46 and the ṛṣi dīrghatamas

indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān|
ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ ||

What does this say? The Truth is one (ekaṃ sad), and the sages call it
variously, by different names, indra, mitra, varuṇa, etc.


IMHO to miss this point is to consider that infinity comes in parts and this is just not possible. To see two where there is one, perpetuates one's mala.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
25 March 2011, 10:59 AM
EM, one thing that we Indian Hindus have been taught/trained for generations is to appease the minorities at all costs. In keeping with that tradition, I will agree with your viewpoint. ;)

Vannakkam Believer: I honestly don't know which minority you are referring to. Is it the 'western Hindu' minority here on HDF, or the Saiva minority in Hinduism, or the over 55 minority on HDF?

For me, there are none of the above for we are all in it together positively promoting our love for SD.

Aum Namasivaya

wundermonk
26 March 2011, 01:01 PM
Is there a hierarchy amongst the Gods and Goddesses?

In my mind as a Hindu? No. I have heard stories while young - Murugan and Pillaiyar (Thamizh for Ganapati/Ganesh) were vying for a fruit from their parents - Shiva and Parvati. They said he would get it who circles the world quickest. Off goes Murugan on his Mayilvaganam (peacock as vehicle). Pillaiyar cleverly says "For me the world is my parents". He circles Shiva/Parvati and lays claim to the fruit. Shiva/Parvati cannot refuse offering the fruit to Pillaiyar. Murugan comes back after circling the world and is furious at the fruit being awarded to Pillaiyar.

In any case, does this story mean that Pillaiyar > Murugan? I dont think so.

There are many temples around the world dedicated to both Shiva and Vishnu.

Arguments of which God is higher/lower than the other completely misses the point of Brahman, in my opinion.

Eastern Mind
26 March 2011, 01:31 PM
Vannakkam wundermunk et al: For me it is more about the reality of practice than starting an argument. For a Saiva, Siva is all that is necessary for he encompasses all. For Vaishnavites, Vishnu is all you need. Similarly with Krishna Bhaktars or those who favour and form of the Goddess. So since I am a Saiva for whatever reason (beyond my intellect for sure) I will worship Siva primarily. Does this mean I don't like Vishnu, or think Vishnu is inferior. Hardly!

Suppose there are two restaurants side by side, a Mexican one, and a Chinese one. I happen to go to the Mexican one (for any reason, maybe the decorations on the outside were cuter, maybe it was closer) Does this mean I don't like Chinese food? Hardly! But over a few years, I justy discover that about 9 times out of 10 I am drawn to the Mexican restaurant. So I have become fond of that style of food, and most of the time I go there. Many others do the opposite of me and head directly without stopping for the Chinese restaurant.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
26 March 2011, 03:54 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

If we look to the wise, what do they say? The author & muni vyāsa-ji (kṛṣṇa-dvaipāyana) directs us appropriately.

Lets look to the mahābhārata, śanti parvan (section 342 or CCCXLII) and read what kṛṣṇa ( hariḥ) says to arjuna (phalguna):

O' son of paṇḍu rudra should be known to have nārāyaṇa as His soul. If that deva of deva's be worshiped ( maheśvarāya ) then O' partha
( arjuna) nārāyaṇa is worshipped.

I (hariḥ) am the soul O' son of paṇḍu of all the worlds, of the universe. Rudra is My soul. It is for this reason that I always adore Him.
He who knows rudra knows Myself. And he who knows Myself knows rudra. He who follows rudra follows Me. Rudra is nārāyaṇa.
Both are One. No one other then rudra is competent in granting me a boon.

In adoring rudra thus I have adored My own Self. Visṇu , says kṛṣṇa, never bows his head onto any devatā except His own Self.
It is for this reason that I adore rudra. For as I have told you (arjuna) rudra is my own Self.

Is not kṛṣṇa hariḥ ? Is not kṛṣṇa nārāyaṇa? Is not nārāyaṇa rudra? Is then kṛṣṇa not rudra? Kṛṣṇa clearly tells us Rudra is nārāyaṇa. Both are One.


praṇām

Sahasranama
26 March 2011, 04:10 PM
I agree with yajvan, this is the view expounded by the itihasas and puranas. Although for a bhakta one form may be more preferable. There is a legend of Tulsidasa, when Krishna appeared in front of him, Tulsidasa asked him to take the form of Sri Rama.

Ganeshprasad
26 March 2011, 05:07 PM
Pranam all

I have had sleepless night debating this Hierarchy here as well as other forum. like Arjun lux (target) should be just one, only we forget that same one come in many diffrent forms and names.
Rig Veda mentions only 33 devas all other devas are various menifestation of these;

8 Vasus, 11 Rudras, 12 Aditya and Brahma and Indra (some say two ashvina)

Yagnvalka when asked

Yajyavalkya Kanda - Sakalya Brahmana, in the Brihardarayanka Upanishad
If we look in the Sakalya Brahmana ( Part of the Yajyavalkya Kanda) there is a questioning ( more of an interrogation) of Yajnavalkya muni. This was in the court of king Janaka,
The question is asked ' how many gods are there' ? He starts with "three and three hundred and three and three thousand."
These are expressions of Brahman. When he finishes his discourse, as the questioning continues to ask "how many are there really?" Yajyavalkya says there is just One. And the questioners (Sakalya) asks, "Which is the one God", Yajyavalkya answers - "The cosmic vital force. That is Brahman. They (the wise is inferred here) denote It by the term tyat , (THAT)."


Ekam Sad Vipra bahudha vadanti

Jai Shree Krishna

murugan
05 April 2011, 03:11 AM
Vannakkam murugan: That would all depend on which sect you talk to. Some have different (in name at least) supreme Gods, while others say all are essentially the same. Hinduism is vast, and people's ideas on it vary. What do you personally think? I'm not asking because I want to start up some argument, but because you're South Indian Tamil I think, I'd like to know.

Aum Namasivaya

Me to agree on that people ideas vary on the religion. I liked to ask this question, I have heard that it is custom that in the temples after worshiping lord ganesha only we move to the others. Not only in the temples and in all the poojas also after performing ganesha puja only they proceed with the others.

This made me to think that there might be some hierarchy?