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smaranam
29 March 2011, 02:50 PM
dandavat

Here it is a description of Raganuga Sadhan bhakti given in Bhakti-rasämrita-sindhu 1.2.295

sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi |
tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA vraja-lokAnusArataH ||

The devotional service should be done both -sevA cAtra hi
in the body of practitioner (externally)- sAdhaka-rUpeNa
and in the perfect(spiritual) body (internally) - siddha-rUpeNa
Desiring to obtain a particular state of love - tad-bhAva-lipsunA ,
whose essence (in obtaining it) is to follow the residents of Vrindavan -sArataH kAryA anu vraja-loka


Tika:
As we have seen the informations about one’s spiritual body (siddha deha) are received in the Siddha Pranali initiation (comprising the ekadas bhava), which is even derided in the branches of Gaudiya Math (which includes Iskcon).
Commenting on this verse Srila Vishwanath Cakrabarti describes from the point of view of a rupa-anuga devotee the two types of angas of bhakti practiced in “sadhak-rupa” and “siddha-rupa” following Rupa Goswami, respectively Rupa Manjari

PAMHO
Nitai-Gauranga Haribol ~
Gaura bhakta vrunda ki jay

I have a hypothetical qn: Acc. to Gaura-GaNodesha-DeepikA, there are only those handful of Yutheshwaris that came with Mahaprabhu in the Gaur Leela.

So, siddha-prANAli would accordingly have limited roles assigned to the sAdhaks by their respective Gurus.

Let us say, hypothetically, we come into this golden period and suddenly 100,000 sAdhaks having taken [mass] dikshA are enlightened, in mAdhurya, in each Yutha (group) [especially Rupa Manjari's group]. Or to extend the hypothesis, let us say a million or billion.

What happens ? Does LalitA, Rupa manjari, IndulekhA devis need a billion assistants ? Now you will say - "don't think with your material mind." Fine.

Also, it does not require rocket science to notice how the manjaris (their names) are actually aspects of Vrajeshwari VrushabhAnu-nandini Radha's personality : rUpa (form), lAvaNya (beauty), rati (attraction-love/sneha), ras (we all know what that is), guNa (qualities), sudhA (again , ras, pure, essence of sweetness - this also happens to be one of Radha's names in RadhaSahasranama), prem (highest selfless Love after mahAbhAv), ananga (formless) ...

So it is no wonder they are buds of the creeper Radha. However, Lalita and Vishakha and other sakhis are also all aspects of Radha.

Now we suddenly have these N billion sAdhanA-siddha gopis all at once. (Well, BrahmaVaivarta PurAN states there are numerous gopis as it is).

:)

Is each gopi supposed to concentrate on a very very very detail specific service ?
Do you see what i mean ? My vayjayanti haar would be wilted by the time it reaches KrushNa or the Yutheshwari. It would be great fortune if one gets to glance at another one picking a flower from VrundAdevi's garden, handing it to her neighbour who puts it in a basket and hands the basket to her neighbour and at the end of the chain is the haar maker who then makes the haar, her gopi-boss checks it, then it is approved and finally signed off by the gopi-boss's boss.....

A sAdhanA-sidha gopi would never see KRushNa at all, but actually He is right beside her, so what am i missing ?

OR , are we not otherwise implying that there are 1 million Rupa manjaris, 10,000 sudhA manjaris, KRushNA alone knows how many Lalitas!

Then why not a zillion Radhas ? Ans: For rasa tattva, and enhancing ras... plus none would have the mahAbhav even close. Fine, but then where do you draw the line, and why shout MAyAvad when two neighbouring sAdhaks claim to be the same identical gopi ? OR, can there be 10,000 Manjaris with the same name ?

Same with all other rasas, in fact worse.

Sorry if this qn is inappropriate for the forum - if so, i shall delete it immediately. Just thought others may have similar qns.

Thank you.

Hare KRushNa
praNAm

anadi
30 March 2011, 04:49 AM
PAMHO
Nitai-Gauranga Haribol ~
Gaura bhakta vrunda ki jay

I have a hypothetical qn: Acc. to Gaura-GaNodesha-DeepikA, there are only those handful of Yutheshwaris that came with Mahaprabhu in the Gaur Leela.

So, siddha-prANAli would accordingly have limited roles assigned to the sAdhaks by their respective Gurus.



Dandavat,
You may be given a certain role, but you are trained in all the arts, the gopis are proficient in. Immagine only the art of dressing, make-up, singing and dancing.


"Krishna makes his desire known to the gopis by playing his flute, and they respond by singing Krishna’s names.

Krishna says, “Oh dear ones! The moonrays beautify the forest and its flowers and they are carrying my desire to enjoy with you.”

The gopis answer: “Oh Krishna, Krishna, Krishna! Oh Ramana! Let it be so!”

Thus taking his sundari ramanis, Krishna sweetly sings and wanders with them under every tree and every lata and in every kunja." (from Nisha lila of Govinda Lilamrita)

Krishna is simultaneously with different, different gopis in Vrindavan.
Krishna is sumultaneouly with Radha, her main majaris, and with different, different other manjaris in Vrindavan.
Krishna is sumultaneouly with Radha, her main majaris, her main sakhsi and with different, different other manjaris and other followers of the sakhis in Vrindavan.

Nobody comes short by the pastimes of Krishna.
When one feels she wants to be alone with Krishna, Krishna let it happen.
When one got through the school of the gopis, or sakhis, or manjaris of Radha, one is in the position to know how to please and love Krishna, the gopis, the sakhis and all the other.

anadi
30 March 2011, 05:05 AM
Let us say, hypothetically, we come into this golden period and suddenly 100,000 sAdhaks having taken [mass] dikshA are enlightened, in mAdhurya, in each Yutha (group) [especially Rupa Manjari's group]. Or to extend the hypothesis, let us say a million or billion.

What happens ? Does LalitA, Rupa manjari, IndulekhA devis need a billion assistants ? Now you will say - "don't think with your material mind." Fine.

Dandavat,
There is no problem with it, the Wonderland of Krishna - Vraja - "The Spell" can get any size.

I may give you an exemple:
Sri Lalitanandada-kunja (lightning color)

Verse 31-34 from Purvana Lila of Govinda Lilamrita:
"North of Radha Kund is Lalita Sakhi’s immense kunja made up eight sub-kunjas that resemble an eightlotus stemsed lotus. In the nucleus of this lotus is the astonishing courtyard named Anangambuja, itself shaped like a thousandlotus stemsed lotus with a golden cottage in the center. Surrounding the courtyard is a patch of banana trees. The courtyard is amazing because it can expand or contract in size, according to the demands of the lila. This area is carefully maintained by Lalita’s disciple, Kalavati. Here, the pleasurable opulences of the six seasons always manifest to assist Radha Govinda’s various keli-vinoda."

And even more than that, the space of Vrindavan has also the quality that it brings in front of you the one (Krishna) or the ones (Radha-Krishna or any other) direct in front of you, wherever you may stay in a circle of gopis or sakhis or manjaris around Him or around Radha-Krishna...
This is also described in the Hindol-lila in GL.

anadi
30 March 2011, 05:27 AM
Is each gopi supposed to concentrate on a very very very detail specific service ?
Do you see what i mean ? My vayjayanti haar would be wilted by the time it reaches KrushNa or the Yutheshwari. It would be great fortune if one gets to glance at another one picking a flower from VrundAdevi's garden, handing it to her neighbour who puts it in a basket and hands the basket to her neighbour and at the end of the chain is the haar maker who then makes the haar, her gopi-boss checks it, then it is approved and finally signed off by the gopi-boss's boss.....

Is not like that. You may directly serve and love, when you basically got it; even if the learning ... never ends. You may be introduce for example in the huge clan of Lalita by many, many other gopis of the chain you belong to, but they are your own family, you love them, and they love you; there is no boss idea, even if they may learn you their art of life, and love ... they do it because you are a very special person that qualified to be with them. They are very fragile and tender, tall, slender, big eyes, beautiful hair... very ...fairy tale like.

anadi
30 March 2011, 05:43 AM
A sAdhanA-sidha gopi would never see KRushNa at all, but actually He is right beside her, so what am i missing ?
Don`t worry, your wish is Krishna`s command, and that will be quickly reality.
If the purpose of your sadhana was: not seeing Krishna, than you won`t see Him, even if other see Him right in front of you.

anadi
30 March 2011, 05:53 AM
OR , are we not otherwise implying that there are 1 million Rupa manjaris, 10,000 sudhA manjaris, KRushNA alone knows how many Lalitas!

Then why not a zillion Radhas ?

No, not like that. Even if it looks the same, still one should understand it in this way: There is one Radha, one Lalita and so on.
They may multiply in uncountable numbers.

anadi
30 March 2011, 06:10 AM
Ans: For rasa tattva, and enhancing ras... plus none would have the mahAbhav even close.

All the sakhis and manjaris that feel with Radha the time She is in mahabhav, may touch the same ecstasy. Through empathy they "become" Radha ... in feelings.

anadi
30 March 2011, 06:44 AM
Fine, but then where do you draw the line, and why shout MAyAvad when two neighbouring sAdhaks claim to be the same identical gopi ?
Same with all other rasas, in fact worse.

Dandavat,
I think Jiva Gosvami explains that in the spiritual sky there are spiritual bodies parked, which are different, and in the moment of accomplishment one gets into one of those bodies. I must look to see, where it comes. In the Gaudiya Math, they try to twist this information, which is presented by the babajis of Radha Kund.

Is something like in the film Avatar (2009) as one person got temporary into a certain blue body to learn the way of a certain folk of a wood, practicing a kind of raganuga (bhakti), and loving that folk he left his body and got definitly in the other, the blue body, by the power of the Goddess of that wood.

Yes the same should be in the other rasas in the Wonderland Vrindavan.

smaranam
31 March 2011, 10:43 AM
PAMHO

I wanted to know where this rAga + anuga process actually leads, so thank you very much.


They are very fragile and tender, tall, slender, big eyes, beautiful hair... very ...fairy tale like.

That was nectar to the ears. Of Course, if KrushNa's crown touches the ceiling, the maidens of Braj who are expansions of His Shakti are going to be very gentle, lovely and tall. ( I had used the word boss not in a negative way , but only as a technical means to describe what i was saying - in fact i have never used it in the material world, so wonder why ).

These maidens are simply so lovely and sarva-guNa-sampanna that in one's natural state one can only adore them - involuntarily.

Hare KrushNa

praNAm

smaranam
31 March 2011, 10:59 AM
Many praNAms



I think Jiva Gosvami explains that in the spiritual sky there are spiritual bodies parked, which are different, and in the moment of accomplishment one gets into one of those bodies. I must look to see, where it comes.

Aha ! Would that be in Preeti Sandarbha ? This is all that is required.


In the Gaudiya Math, they try to twist this information,

Yes, Lord Chaitanya is OK with this, shAstra is OK with this, i don't know about Gaudiya Math, but beware dear devotees, do not lose hope if you hear this from arbritary sources:

1. A direct relationship with KrshNa is being in mAyA : "Your KRshNa is your imagination" ( - but who will bother to tell them He is real) ,
2. "This is sense gratification",
3. MAyAvAd owing to merging with a nitya-siddha,
4. Selfishness (because He only belongs to Radha and since you are not Her, and since Radha is actually KRushNA so this will be mAyAvAd),
5. apa-siddhAnta
6. "You will take birth again as a girl in this world" (so ? Wherever you lead me dear Lord)
7. Accuse you of mAyAvAd and hence "there is no need to sugar-coat it with bhakti which looks more like PUtnA-bhakti"
8. This is not pure devotion

I am so so grateful to my Dearest One Who is my Guru, (till date i do not understand why He is so merciful ).

I am writing this for other devotees, who may face the same thing.

Thanks again for being patient, and i can only hope that no VaishNav is mad at me.

Jai Shri KRshNa
many praNAms

anadi
08 April 2011, 01:22 PM
I think Jiva Gosvami explains that in the spiritual sky there are spiritual bodies "parked", which are different, and in the moment of accomplishment one gets into one of those bodies. I must look to see, where it comes.


Many praNAms
Aha ! Would that be in Preeti Sandarbha ?

Dandavat,

Yes, it comes from Priti Sandharba 71

dharmena bhagavatat kena vaykuntasya bhagavato – according to Bhagavatam in Vaikuntha there is a Suprem Lord
jyoter angsa bhuta– in his effulgence there are some “limbs”(particles) of beings
vaikuntha loka sobha rupa – (which are) beautiful forms of the realm of Vaikuntha
yah ananta murtayas – there are innumerable forms
tatra vartante kah same ka-yah sah – any of it will become one with whom?
sah muktasya kasya murte – that is a liberated soul which attains that form
bhagavata kryata iti - Bhagavatam testifies for it.

anirvan
09 April 2011, 02:48 AM
Pranam dear smaranam ji and Anadi ji,

I think i can able to help you about your above questions as i had similar doubts before and by grace of my beloved Gurudev, i got the correct answer.

Infact Sri Rupa Goswami has given the correct answer in above line.

BHAVALOKA (nityaloke or nityavrindavan) is not made up of according to the components and rules of Mrityuloka. here lies the confusion.

Whatever is Bhava here ,is actually is a Form there.

BHAVA became PERSONIFIED

In nityavrindavan there is no individual presence like he,she.me ,you etc. but Only Bhava is there,each bhava has taken a specific form.

To be clear,i will explain this way..... suppose Kanta bhava. there are 100 women with 100 husband. suppose you will be given a option to keep one MAN as there is no place for 99 persons. but 100 women can"t accept a single Man as their husband.

but if we take out that components from a man which is the component factor of his husband-hood and create a man form,then it will be acceptable to 100 women.

This is the basic building factor of Nityalok. here all forms are like condensed(though not appropriate term) Bhava.
Our mothers are different. but if we see the mother in Nityalok, we can identify our own mother in that single Mother form.

so Bhavalok is not a limited place or something like that,but its like eternal,infinite which can hold entire creation billions times.

There is one RADHA, but billions of devotee can become Radha by proper Bhakti. there is only one lalita,one bisakha but billions of people can become Lalita,bisakha.....so on......

When one practice to be one particular manjari,sakhi.... at the maturation of his/her bhakti he will merge into that bhava form at nityalok. it is called LAYA hojana. here laya doesn"t means nirvana of advita vedanta.

THIS MAY BE CALLED SAJUJYA LAYA INTO A PARTICULAR BHAVA.

because your siddha sarira( antaschinta sarira) is made up of that bhava component...bhava-sarira. so its becomes united/LAYA or merged or Become same and one( sajujya) with the desired Shakhi/bhava sarira of nityavrindavan.

This way the worshipers of Shiva,Ganesh, Krishna, jesus etc all can see their respective desired RUPA in one Nitya thakur of nityalok and do their Seva.

Here i would want to emphasize one important thing. one can also do sadhna thinking him as Krishna and merge with srikrishna of vrindavan. though this is unique and happens with very very rare sadhaka which has happened few times.

I hope any body can have clear understanding about bhava lok with above explanation.Bhava is something based upon and above Advita,if one can"t understand advita clearly,one can never understand bhava properly. in bhava loka, each and every components are established in advita knowledge yet wishfully taken dvita form and dvaita role for oneself to do leela.

jayagurudev

anadi
09 April 2011, 08:56 AM
... i got the correct answer.
Whatever is Bhava here, is actually a Form there.
BHAVA becames PERSONIFIED

In nityavrindavan there is no individual presence...

dandavat,

If there would be no individual presence, would mean that all raganuga sadhakas, who would allegedly attain the mood of Radha, will merge in one body, because ... al least she remains as an individual.
Even if the raganuga sadhaka would be a second Radha, which also is not the way a raganuga sadhaka should think, he would still act as an individual person, doing his own lilas with Krishna, but with the generic mood or bhava of Radha, as all the Radhas that may exist, according the idea of your gurudeva, in nitya vrindavan.

anadi
09 April 2011, 09:14 AM
There is one RADHA, but billions of devotee can become Radha by proper Bhakti. there is only one lalita,one bisakha but billions of people can become Lalita,bisakha.....so on......

Here i would want to emphasize one important thing. one can also do sadhna thinking him as Krishna and merge with srikrishna of vrindavan.

dandavat,

I understand that you got these ideas from your gurudeva.
I personally would like very much these ideas, which are very enticing.
Unfortunately a great siddha baba like Visvanatha Cakravaripada wrote in his Raga Vartma Candrika text 12:

tani carcana bhaktavahangropasana - identifying oneslef with the object of worship during arcana
mudra nyasa dvaraka dhyana - using mudras, practicing nyasa, meditating on Dvaraka
rukminyadi pujadiny - worshiping Rukmini and the others
agama sastra vihitanyapi naivi karyani - are practices described in the agama sastras which the raganugiya sadhaka should not perform.

The above practices belong obvioulsy to svabhista-bhava-virudha
unfavorable items (pratikula) which hamper the development of Braja bhakti, as delineated in the text 13.

smaranam
09 April 2011, 04:45 PM
Yes, it comes from Priti Sandharba 71

dharmena bhagavatat kena vaykuntasya bhagavato – according to Bhagavatam in Vaikuntha there is a Suprem Lord
jyoter angsa bhuta– in his effulgence there are some “limbs”(particles) of beings
vaikuntha loka sobha rupa – (which are) beautiful forms of the realm of Vaikuntha
yah ananta murtayas – there are innumerable forms
tatra vartante kah same ka-yah sah – any of it will become one with whom?
sah muktasya kasya murte – that is a liberated soul which attains that form
bhagavata kryata iti - Bhagavatam testifies for it.

Thanks AnadiJi

praNAm

smaranam
09 April 2011, 05:37 PM
Pranam dear smaranam ji
Dear smaranam was better :)


BHAVALOKA (nityaloke or nityavrindavan) is not made up of according to the components and rules of Mrityuloka. here lies the confusion.

Whatever is Bhava here ,is actually is a Form there.

BHAVA became PERSONIFIED

jayagurudev

Thanks for your elaborate explanation.
This was always my automatic understanding by experience and as a general Hindu thought. Meera (Hema Malini in the movie) said to the Temple Pujari "Ya to use Meera kaho ya muze Radha, muze uski sautan mat banao." (Either call Her Meera or call me Radha)
and the pujari started laughing saying "who can question love ?"

There is Him and insignificant me. Then by His mercy i stumbled upon this wonderful Gaudiya VaishNav theology and its follower devotees... Prolonged laughter. What do you want ? Just You. But you already have Me. That is right, i guess i will have to burn all these guNa-karma - bad habit of running around the internet digging into GV theology, other VaishNav philosophies, other philosophies, then come back to the nest, haven, heaven, You.

I thought it had stopped, but apparently not, despite all His mercy, as see how i started this thread ? Well, i can tell myself it was for like-minded sakhis, God-sisters (and God-brothers who are actually soul-sisters). Actually, since we have a GV scholar here, it was a very good opportunity to ask him. PrashNena, always.

VaishNavs reject sayujja with Bhagvan. Shuddha Advaita/Pushti Marg also does not see the point. It is not so simple. For GVs Radha is KrushNa, so they use that transitive property and indirectly it is Sayujja. I think the bigger concern is devotees prematurely calling themselves Yashoda Nanda Devaki Lalita Vishakha and so on. Plus, you will hear arguments like Radha is Hladini shakti and we are [eternally] tatastha shakti - which i suppose is fine as tatastha shakti can be "in the mood of" Radha as long as she is not surfing the internet.

Jai Shri KrushNa ~

praNAm

anirvan
10 April 2011, 01:24 AM
dandavat,

If there would be no individual presence, would mean that all raganuga sadhakas, who would allegedly attain the mood of Radha, will merge in one body, because ... al least she remains as an individual.
Even if the raganuga sadhaka would be a second Radha, which also is not the way a raganuga sadhaka should think, he would still act as an individual person, doing his own lilas with Krishna, but with the generic mood or bhava of Radha, as all the Radhas that may exist, according the idea of your gurudeva, in nitya vrindavan.

Dear Anadi,

whatever i have said is not just an idea of my gurudev.when i mean guru,he is not just another mantra giving babaji with rotting sastra jnan. guru means satya-drasta rishi who has attained sajujya with parambrahman and is himself God. so you shouldnot use such lighter words at him,or else you know what harm you may get in spiritual path.

my guru is not ordinary guru,but who has himself revealed few occasion about his swaroop,,who has explored those spiritual knowledge far accesible to Vyaas,vasistha,shankara. he is himselfthe vrindavan adhipati Sri Rasheswar nitya-thakur.and Raseswar never gives idea to human,they reveals his swaroop.
and he never had got his philosophy from words of vaishnav literature. as one becomes vaishnav after his blessings only.such mahavaishnava,mahasiva comes once in a kalpa. who started his sadhna with aim of getting bhagban as his dasi,wife in his previous life in tantra. and later life after ascending the highest nirvikalpa of vedanta, in bhava sadhna got hladini as his wife.

and remeber this vrindavan leela taken place in kaliyuga second time after chaitanya mahaprabhu here on earth.

please dont mess up with fighting,contradicting vaishnav satras,who are creating web words of illusion. with clear mind and deeper sadhna you can realize truth.

i have not read these sastras you are quoting,but its the truth revealed to me in my sadhna.

i will suggest you to read the biography and literatures of my gurudev and you will be free from all of your confusion.

i have clearly told,without advita jnana,talking about bhavaloka is laughable.its very truth.

anirvan
10 April 2011, 03:59 AM
Dear smaranam was better :)



Thanks for your elaborate explanation.
This was always my automatic understanding by experience and as a general Hindu thought. Meera (Hema Malini in the movie) said to the Temple Pujari "Ya to use Meera kaho ya muze Radha, muze uski sautan mat banao." (Either call Her Meera or call me Radha)
and the pujari started laughing saying "who can question love ?"

There is Him and insignificant me. Then by His mercy i stumbled upon this wonderful Gaudiya VaishNav theology and its follower devotees... Prolonged laughter. What do you want ? Just You. But you already have Me. That is right, i guess i will have to burn all these guNa-karma - bad habit of running around the internet digging into GV theology, other VaishNav philosophies, other philosophies, then come back to the nest, haven, heaven, You.

I thought it had stopped, but apparently not, despite all His mercy, as see how i started this thread ? Well, i can tell myself it was for like-minded sakhis, God-sisters (and God-brothers who are actually soul-sisters). Actually, since we have a GV scholar here, it was a very good opportunity to ask him. PrashNena, always.

VaishNavs reject sayujja with Bhagvan. Shuddha Advaita/Pushti Marg also does not see the point. It is not so simple. For GVs Radha is KrushNa, so they use that transitive property and indirectly it is Sayujja. I think the bigger concern is devotees prematurely calling themselves Yashoda Nanda Devaki Lalita Vishakha and so on. Plus, you will hear arguments like Radha is Hladini shakti and we are [eternally] tatastha shakti - which i suppose is fine as tatastha shakti can be "in the mood of" Radha as long as she is not surfing the internet.

Jai Shri KrushNa ~

praNAm

Pranam smaranam ji (vaishnava bhaktas are equivalent to kanha to me)

i dont want try to understand this,as it will surely be revealed to you by the grace of sri rasewar.

I will ask you to do manan on few question and let the answer revealed to you by his love...

1) is there anything possible that kanha can"t give to his devotee ,even his swaroop,even the mahabhava of sri-radharani,swaroop of any sakhis ?

2) is the vrindavan becomes empty without leela when he comes to earth as avatari ?

3)why Radha-krishna ,bhakta-bhagaban are called one soul--two forms ?

4) does bhagaban is so partial and egoistic like christianity/islam that if and only if one worship his in the form of SRIKRISHNA...he will eneter bhavalok ?

5)does only habitants of earth can get into his leela,there are infinite universe with infinite creation..all loving him ?

6) sajujya i said is not with vrindavaneswar,but with sakhis. thats the way of raganuga sadhna,to follow and acquire the bhava of a sakhi.

7) doesn"t the so called are behaving like another fundamental religion to restrict bhagaban as a private God of a community ?

8) is there something localised place called niyuavrindavan? if yes...where,which part of universe ?and is it a limited place ?

i will pray at Mohana that he himself reveals himself to us.

last thing to say-- when i wrote above post yesterday,at midnight i had this clear vision of nityavrindavan with complete tattva darshan.

smaranam
10 April 2011, 08:14 AM
I will ask you to do manan on few question and let the answer revealed to you by his love...

PraNAm AnirvanJi,

I think you did not understand my post - perhaps because of the way i wrote it - my mistake. What part of it did you find contradictory to your thought ?

PrANanAth my life, He has given me the answers i need. Did i not say that despite His Love, it was my bad habit of going all over the place to find things, but ultimately come back to His nest ? He is all that matters to me.

These things do not matter to me any more. It is just that when we write we write for a community.

What did i write in that navy blue line ?

That last paragraph was only to give you the perspective of what practicng VaishNavs think today.

I shall answer your qns anyway:

1) is there anything possible that kanha can"t give to his devotee ,even his swaroop,even the mahabhava of sri-radharani,swaroop of any sakhis ?

He is astonishingly infinitely generous. I have seen Him do it. It is not a question of cannot, it is a matter of bhaktas saying they do not want to think in that direction or seek Sayujja with Radha or Him, because that will affect their Vraja-bhav. But KAnhA showers (surprises) them with unexpected gifts anyways.

2) is the vrindavan becomes empty without leela when he comes to earth as avatari ?

Of course not. Please do not think my understanding is that primitive. He gives each bhakta their own [perspective of] Golok.

3)why Radha-krishna ,bhakta-bhagaban are called one soul--two forms ?

Because that is what they are. The Dearest and Closest to the heart says to the bhakta that they are Him. I am His dasi.

4) does bhagaban is so partial and egoistic like christianity/islam that if and only if one worship his in the form of SRIKRISHNA...he will eneter bhavalok ?

Bhavlok is not one single realm. They will be in the realm in which they worship Him - Aishvarya, Madhurya, Vaikuntha, Kailash etc. He reciprocates as per the bhav and says so in the Gita. However, Gaudiya sidhanta is to show how bhajan of Madhur Shri KrushNa swaroop is highest in bhavs, although to me He is Shri KrushNa, Govind, VAsudev - Dwarkadheesh, Narayan, Shri Ram, Narsimha, Sadashiv.

5)does only habitants of earth can get into his leela,there are infinite universe with infinite creation..all loving him ?

He belongs to the extra-terrestrials, and if not peacock-feathers and bamboo-flute, He uses whatever the ETs can understand, and gives them that perspective of His nitya leela.

How Bhagvan reveals Himself to the ETs should not be our concern.

6) sajujya i said is not with vrindavaneswar,but with sakhis. thats the way of raganuga sadhna,to follow and acquire the bhava of a sakhi.

Yes, i understand and agree. If this was not the case, i would not be breathing right now, as my existence depends on what i am to Him. I cannot live without Him. He and only He (not me either) decides what i am to Him, and He has.
In the beginning external inputs made me research into it, not anymore.
I was only pointing out that some VaishNavs will tell you that Radha is KrushNa so we cannot be Her. This is out of their love for Radha as Her manjari.

7) doesn"t the so called are behaving like another fundamental religion to restrict bhagaban as a private God of a community ?

It does seem so initially, but they are not forcing their views on you or me. They are imposing that on their disciples who are out there to develop Vraja Bhav. They only caution the others who try to circumvent the Lord, that it can cause falldown. This message gets distorted in KaliYug.

For me, KrushNa overrides them anyway. It is upto us to stay focused on Him internally and not look to the external sources. (Read again, what i wrote in font size one).

One has to give up false ego, but can continue identifying with a bhav - that is as advaita as it gets.



8) is there something localised place called niyuavrindavan? if yes...where,which part of universe ?and is it a limited place ?

NityavrundAvan is in my heart right now, at the same time it is on Shwetadweep which is not on any physical map. But wait, my heart and soul is on Shwetadweep, i do NOT live where this body lives. I live in MashusUdan's heart and He in mine, my heart is His home, my home is His abode, His abode is my home, and all this is simultaneously true. Also, last Kartik i became so greedy that despite having Him in the heart i stole Him away from Vrundavan. To compensate, the entire Braj cascaded into the heart via fresh scented pavitra waters of the Yamuna.

last thing to say-- when i wrote above post yesterday,at midnight i had this clear vision of nityavrindavan with complete tattva darshan.

Hari bol !! Amazing ! shat shat praNAm

Shri KrushNa Govind Hare MurAre he nAth nArAyaN VAsudeva ~
Govinda Damodara Ma ~ ~ dhaveti ~
[/QUOTE]

anadi
10 April 2011, 10:03 AM
Dear Anadi,
whatever i have said is not just an idea of my gurudev.
when i mean guru,he is not just another mantra giving babaji with rotting sastra jnan.
guru means satya-drasta rishi
who has attained sajujya with parambrahman and is himself God.

Dandavat,

Well, maybe He is God - bhagavan-tattva, maybe He is not an ordinary jiva -... tattva.
Or maybe, in your concenption he is an ordinary jiva who, becasue of his sadhana of many, many life times, became "special" and "attained sajujya with param -brahman" - the Supreme Lord, the aim of his sadhana.
I think the second supposition, reflect your opinion.

I still have some questions:
- which form of the Supreme Lord, your guru became one with?
and if He became one with that form, how is that He - the tiny jiva-spark - is still here in another body, as long as He is supposed to already became one with the Supreme Lord ... in one of His forms?
- when did He revealed that form, He became one with?
- whom He revealed that form?
- what lila was the incentive for that revelation?

I asume that some of his followers described all these in His biography, as long as you accept Him as such.

PS
If you accept the vedic knowledge, could you please tell me, where it is presented your conception?
When you got all the answers, whatever it will take, please write me.

anadi
11 April 2011, 02:22 AM
i have not read these sastras you are quoting...

Certainly you didn`t. And this should be also the reason I should not accept it?
First I should enquire about the author - Visvanatha Cakravarti.

After the disappearance of Sriman Mahaprabhu and His eternal associates who had taken up residence in Vraja, some of the most influent great personalities of Gaudiya Vaishnavism were Srinivasa Acaraya, Narottama Thakura, and Syamananda Prabhu. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was fourth in the line of disciplic succession coming from Srila Narottama Thakura.

As Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura grew older, he spent most of the time in a semi-conscious state, deeply absorbed in his siddha-deha (perfect body) in Radha-Krishna lila.
Not that, he got "an illumination" - and than he started to preach about it.
He followed the raganuga sadhana of attaining a manjari form in Radha-Krishna lila, and then he got more and more stuck in the lila, more and more outside of this world.
He is a true follower of Sri Caitanya. Not a fake.
For me his words are true.

anadi
11 April 2011, 02:28 AM
i have not read these sastras you are quoting,but its the truth revealed to me in my sadhna.

Dandavat,
Who revealed to you in your sadhana, that an ordinary jiva can become Radha or Krishna?
...or describe the process of this revalation.

anadi
11 April 2011, 03:58 AM
Dear Anadi,
whatever i have said is not just an idea of my gurudev.when i mean guru,he is not just another mantra giving babaji with rotting sastra jnan.

dandavat,
one should not give a general verdict for all the gurus of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and put all of them in the same pot.
You said, you had no idea about Vishvanat Cakravarti and you still wrote such things, just to emphasize your guru is a great realized soul, with maybe the best realizations, and my knowledge is the obsolete knowledge from people with no (or less significant) realization.

Rupa Gosvami was also one of the greatest Gaudiya Vaishnavas, directly empowered by Sri Caitanya to reside in Vrindavan and..., who wrote about his realizations, which in my opinion no one wrote before him.
In his Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu he states:

kāma-sambandha-rūpe te prema-mātra-svarūpake |
nitya-siddhāśrayatayā nātra samyag vicārite ||1.2.289 ||

“Since kāma-rūpa (amorous form) and sambandha-rūpa (relative's form) which are caused by prema alone, take shelter of the nitya-siddhas, they have not been discussed thoroughly in this section.”

rāgātmikāyā dvaividhyād dvidhā rāgānugā ca sā |
kāmānugā ca sambandhānugā ceti nigadyate ||1.2.290||

“From these two types of rāgātmika -attachment of the soul, two types of rāgānuga-sādhana (bhakti), called kāmānuga (bhakti) and sambandhānuga (bhakti), are derived.”

tatra adhikārī —
rāgātmikāika-niṣṭhā ye vraja-vāsi-janādayaḥ |
teṣāṁ bhāvāptaye lubdho bhaved atrādhikāravān ||1.2.291 ||

“The qualification for rāgānuga-bhakti is as follows: That person who is
greedy for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja is qualified for rāgānuga-bhakti.

tat-tad-bhāvādi-mādhurye śrute dhīr yad apekṣate |
nātra śāstraṁ na yuktiṁ ca tal-lobhotpatti-lakṣaṇaṁ||1.2.292 ||

“The appearance of that greed is indicated when the intelligence does not depend on scripture and logic,
after realizing to some degree the sweetness of the love of the Vraja-vāsīs
through the process of hearing from the scriptures.”

vaidha-bhakty-adhikārī tu bhāvāvirbhavanāvadhi |
atra śāstraṁ tathā tarkam anukūlam apekṣate ||1.2.293 ||

“Those qualified for vaidhī-bhakti are dependent on scripture and favorable use of logic until the appearance of bhāva.”

So until one attains bhava, one should rely on the scriptures - which are revelations of the previous acaryas.

He also gives a nice definition of the state of bhava (BRS 1.3.1):

śuddha-sattva-viśeṣātmā / prema-suryāḿśu-sāmyabhāk
rucibhiś citta-māsṛṇya kṛd asau bhāva ucyate:

The specific state of pure goodness of the soul - viśeṣa śuddha-sattva atmā
(specificity given by the loving relation established between the soul and the Lord)
as the rays of the divine love manifest - prema-suryāḿśu sāmyabhāk
(and) the consciousness is melted by a blend of divine tastes –citta māsṛṇya rucibhiś
is called Bhava - bhāva ucyate.

anirvan
12 April 2011, 01:50 AM
Dandavat,

Well, maybe He is God - bhagavan-tattva, maybe He is not an ordinary jiva -... tattva.
Or maybe, in your concenption he is an ordinary jiva who, becasue of his sadhana of many, many life times, became "special" and "attained sajujya with param -brahman" - the Supreme Lord, the aim of his sadhana.
I think the second supposition, reflect your opinion.

I still have some questions:
- which form of the Supreme Lord, your guru became one with?
and if He became one with that form, how is that He - the tiny jiva-spark - is still here in another body, as long as He is supposed to already became one with the Supreme Lord ... in one of His forms?
- when did He revealed that form, He became one with?
- whom He revealed that form?
- what lila was the incentive for that revelation?

I asume that some of his followers described all these in His biography, as long as you accept Him as such.

PS
If you accept the vedic knowledge, could you please tell me, where it is presented your conception?
When you got all the answers, whatever it will take, please write me.

pranam Anadi ji,

Yes,you have correctly concluded my points.i will give you a little details to you. have you read the Sadhna of BAMDAV in vedas. and are you aware of Basisthade4va"s sadhna with (Stri"m) badhu sadhna ?

in early vedic days,the concept of Bhagaban/Radha was not clear.Rishis saw first in there samadhi the glimpse of it.and named it Bijlikanya,then Gandharvi etc. i am talking about the sudhha sattva form of God. and they saw him in female form.

Then Rishi Vasistha took that task on himself to find who is this KHSANAPRABHA (GANDHARVI) ?

IT TOOK HIM ALMOST FEW MILLIONS YEARS OF KATHOR SADHNA.this is a long history. his sadhna ranges from nilachala to bindhya parvat and finally concluded at kamarupa (at kamakhya-assam..where that memory is still worshpped now).

And his sadhna was to make this suddha sattva khanaprabha as his wife.and he failed and cursed that badhu-bija to be a failed mantra forever.
and that spiritual accomplishment was unfulfilled till now.

Now i will tell about my Gurudev"s story. his sadhna started with aim of revenge against Mahashakti/God when he found himself in a very pathetic condition in 18th century.born a in suddha brahmin family became a goon with time after his mother was kidnapped by muslim invaders,father died and he came to footpath and subsequently came in a very pathetic condition to a brothel where his mother was a inmate.mother identifed the son and told him about the work of mahashakti,the reason they are now in and commited suicide. and this boy"s sadhna started in revenge against Mahashakti to make her his servant. you can read a lots of literature on MAHASADHAKA BRAHMANANDA GIRI. even after this also his sadhna remained unfulfilled in this birth.
thencame to next birth when he lost his beloved wife in teen age and again his sadhna was aimed to bring back his wife.

1st sadhna-was tantra..ina single night he got mahashakti as his wife,but was the not satisfied as tattva jingyasa came to his mind.

2nd-became jnana sadhaka sannyasi

3-with gurudev"s order became yogi and attained Nirvikalpa of vedanta...the highest in jnana marga.where few returns.

here lies the key to his swaroop. because from Nirvikalpa(highest form of nirbija samadhi) if some returns,the come witha swaroop and a special purpose. like DASO-AHAM(chaitanya). SIVO-AHAM(shankara) etc etc.

My gurudev came with onle one thought and feelings that GURU-AHOM...in supreme guru-bhava as he became identified with supreme guru-bindu of jagatguru and till he shed his mortal body...he always remained in that swaroop.

4th sadhna----till then he was pure advita jnani with who discards bhava and all radha.krishna,siva etc etc. but again in kashi Annapurna came to him and and broke his ignorance about bhava.

then he went to a lace in himalaya where he was instructed to meet maha-bhavca swaroopini gauri maa. and then there that place converted to bhavaloka where gaurimaa accepted him as husbana(like gopi/radha to krishna in raas) and subsequently open the nitya-bhava lok forever.

After that he came back to a place in jungle in assam where he spent 6 month in a house where God became his wife in skin and flesh and served him as dearest wife.after end she only pushed him to society and forced to become GURU to teach human the love and make them free from maya.

i hope from this you can conclude his swaroop,his bhavaleela etc as you are much known scholar and adhyatmika person.

yeah he left his incorporeal body,but told he will remain be Guru till his next task.(till the new yuga-and incarnation of jagatguru happens).his name is paramhansa Nigamananda saraswatidev.

when his devotee started telling him as incarnation,he was not happy and repeatedly told them that---KNOW ME THAT I AM SATGURU,NOT INCARNATION.AFTER THOUSANDS OF BIRTH,WITH SADHNA I KNOW GOD AND BECAME ONE WITH HIM.THATS MY SWAROOP.

and this swaroop was revealed to me also in my dream.

i got my initiation in dream and in meditraion. and my knowledge is mostly happened in my dream,tandra nad even awaken state while meditating.

One thing i want to say is---bhagaban/guru remains SIMULTANEOUSLY AND SAME TIME AT CENTER AS WELL AT PERIPHERY. remaining at nityalok he acts in mrityulok.

second thing without ADVITA,ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND BHAVA-LOKA COMPLETELY.one side of coin will be in dark.

Only jnana with prema can make one PURNA-JNANI.
he always asked to follow the devotion of chaitany,as he was his favourite and so many times he said about the presence of Sri-Chaitanya dev in Kirtana in his presence.so he was that much connected to him directly.

anirvan
12 April 2011, 02:02 AM
PraNAm AnirvanJi,

I think you did not understand my post - perhaps because of the way i wrote it - my mistake. What part of it did you find contradictory to your thought ?

PrANanAth my life, He has given me the answers i need. Did i not say that despite His Love, it was my bad habit of going all over the place to find things, but ultimately come back to His nest ? He is all that matters to me.

These things do not matter to me any more. It is just that when we write we write for a community.

What did i write in that navy blue line ?

That last paragraph was only to give you the perspective of what practicng VaishNavs think today.

I shall answer your qns anyway:

1) is there anything possible that kanha can"t give to his devotee ,even his swaroop,even the mahabhava of sri-radharani,swaroop of any sakhis ?

He is astonishingly infinitely generous. I have seen Him do it. It is not a question of cannot, it is a matter of bhaktas saying they do not want to think in that direction or seek Sayujja with Radha or Him, because that will affect their Vraja-bhav. But KAnhA showers (surprises) them with unexpected gifts anyways.

2) is the vrindavan becomes empty without leela when he comes to earth as avatari ?

Of course not. Please do not think my understanding is that primitive. He gives each bhakta their own [perspective of] Golok.

3)why Radha-krishna ,bhakta-bhagaban are called one soul--two forms ?

Because that is what they are. The Dearest and Closest to the heart says to the bhakta that they are Him. I am His dasi.

4) does bhagaban is so partial and egoistic like christianity/islam that if and only if one worship his in the form of SRIKRISHNA...he will eneter bhavalok ?

Bhavlok is not one single realm. They will be in the realm in which they worship Him - Aishvarya, Madhurya, Vaikuntha, Kailash etc. He reciprocates as per the bhav and says so in the Gita. However, Gaudiya sidhanta is to show how bhajan of Madhur Shri KrushNa swaroop is highest in bhavs, although to me He is Shri KrushNa, Govind, VAsudev - Dwarkadheesh, Narayan, Shri Ram, Narsimha, Sadashiv.

5)does only habitants of earth can get into his leela,there are infinite universe with infinite creation..all loving him ?

He belongs to the extra-terrestrials, and if not peacock-feathers and bamboo-flute, He uses whatever the ETs can understand, and gives them that perspective of His nitya leela.

How Bhagvan reveals Himself to the ETs should not be our concern.

6) sajujya i said is not with vrindavaneswar,but with sakhis. thats the way of raganuga sadhna,to follow and acquire the bhava of a sakhi.

Yes, i understand and agree. If this was not the case, i would not be breathing right now, as my existence depends on what i am to Him. I cannot live without Him. He and only He (not me either) decides what i am to Him, and He has.
In the beginning external inputs made me research into it, not anymore.
I was only pointing out that some VaishNavs will tell you that Radha is KrushNa so we cannot be Her. This is out of their love for Radha as Her manjari.

7) doesn"t the so called are behaving like another fundamental religion to restrict bhagaban as a private God of a community ?

It does seem so initially, but they are not forcing their views on you or me. They are imposing that on their disciples who are out there to develop Vraja Bhav. They only caution the others who try to circumvent the Lord, that it can cause falldown. This message gets distorted in KaliYug.

For me, KrushNa overrides them anyway. It is upto us to stay focused on Him internally and not look to the external sources. (Read again, what i wrote in font size one).

One has to give up false ego, but can continue identifying with a bhav - that is as advaita as it gets.



8) is there something localised place called niyuavrindavan? if yes...where,which part of universe ?and is it a limited place ?

NityavrundAvan is in my heart right now, at the same time it is on Shwetadweep which is not on any physical map. But wait, my heart and soul is on Shwetadweep, i do NOT live where this body lives. I live in MashusUdan's heart and He in mine, my heart is His home, my home is His abode, His abode is my home, and all this is simultaneously true. Also, last Kartik i became so greedy that despite having Him in the heart i stole Him away from Vrundavan. To compensate, the entire Braj cascaded into the heart via fresh scented pavitra waters of the Yamuna.

last thing to say-- when i wrote above post yesterday,at midnight i had this clear vision of nityavrindavan with complete tattva darshan.

Hari bol !! Amazing ! shat shat praNAm

Shri KrushNa Govind Hare MurAre he nAth nArAyaN VAsudeva ~
Govinda Damodara Ma ~ ~ dhaveti ~
[/quote]

Pranam Smaranam ji,koti pranam and koti khyama bhakhya. i am too small adham in front of you. i understand your greatness and also got so many thing right for me. hoipe will be blessed by Sri-RADHAMADHAVA AND his beloved bhakta like you always.:)

harekrishna.

anadi
12 April 2011, 06:13 AM
pranam Anadi ji,
have you read the Sadhna of BAMDAV in vedas. and are you aware of Basisthade4va"s sadhna with (Stri"m) badhu sadhna ?

Dandavat,
Your writing points on things, that might be right. Let's take them under scrutiny.
I will start with your first, for me uninteligible allegations:

1. I`ve never heard of a person called BAMDAV (can you put his name in Harward Kyoto transliteration?); would you be so kind to point out, where in the vedas is recounted his sadhana, so that I can read it there?
2. Could you explain where is described "Basisthade4va"s sadhna" (sadhana of Vasistha Muni?), you meant herein?
3. What is the meaning of badhu sadhna (with Stri`m?) and where is described.

smaranam
12 April 2011, 10:53 AM
Pranam Smaranam ji,koti pranam and koti khyama bhakhya. i am too small adham in front of you. i understand your greatness and also got so many thing right for me. hoipe will be blessed by Sri-RADHAMADHAVA AND his beloved bhakta like you always.:)

harekrishna.

AnirvanJi please , are you kidding ? I am an insignificant ant, actually just an atom on His Toenail. I only hang out with Him, that is all - and that too purely by His Grace and Mercy. Just see **HIS** greatness and generosity - that He can come down to relate to us - someone as insignificant as me, and become our whatever ! He is infinite and continues to give give and give eternally and not simply sustain our breath, walking and talking. He speaks sweet words and shows us something that is unbelievable and that the world contradicts.
He PrANEshwar ! He KrushNa MadhusUdanA ~

I learn from you also, thank you - all of you are my shiksha Gurus :) and many of you are probably sick of me already.

praNAm

Govinda Damodara Madhaveti ~

anirvan
12 April 2011, 11:55 AM
Dandavat,
Your writing points on things, that might be right. Let's take them under scrutiny.
I will start with your first, for me uninteligible allegations:

1. I`ve never heard of a person called BAMDAV (can you put his name in Harward Kyoto transliteration?); would you be so kind to point out, where in the vedas is recounted his sadhana, so that I can read it there?
2. Could you explain where is described "Basisthade4va"s sadhna" (sadhana of Vasistha Muni?), you meant herein?
3. What is the meaning of badhu sadhna (with Stri`m?) and where is described.

pranam Anadi ji,

sorry,lots of spelling mistake from my side...;)

Its Vamadev...rishi who has worshiped God as wife. and about his is mentioned in Rigveda -mandala 4 and and lots of compositions in Rigveda are by him.

Vasistha rishi has worshiped this Goddess as Tara.his first mistake was he had no form in his worship and he did it with dasa mahavidya Tara.andthats why lost millions of years and cursed the Badhu-bija to be nirjiva (dead).

i dont have exact references at present but i can provide once i go to my home as i am staying far away. its mostly in tantras. you can refer these in tara sadhna tantras.

Badhu bija is actually EKAKHSARI MANTRA OF Parambrahma swarupini Tara and is meant to be worshped to get her as wife. most likely the bija is : sthring ".

this is the mantra Nigamananda found in dream and after tedious search found Maha sadhaka BAMAKHEPA of tarapeetha who taught him the sadhna. you can find so many literature about bamakhepa.

nigamananda in one night able to get Maha tara to bless him being his wife and the Badhu bija became curse free. but Tara was not accesible to him as he wanted as she told him that he has not attained SIVA-SWAROOP. thats the reason he became vedantika sannyasi and jnana sadhna.

i will definitely give relevant references.

you can also goole about his previous birth as maha tantrika brahmananda giri of 16th century.

anadi
12 April 2011, 02:29 PM
Its Vamadev...rishi who has worshiped God as wife. and about his is mentioned in Rigveda -mandala 4 and and lots of compositions in Rigveda are by him.
dandavat,

I looked in the Rigveda, in the fourth Chapter, and only in the 16-th Hymn I found something about Vamadeva,
but that has nothing to do with any sadhana in which he would have "worshiped God as wife":

4.16.16-19 Indra

"16 Call we for you that Indra, prompt to listen, him who hath done so much for men's advantage;
Who, Lord of envied bounty, to a singer like me brings quickly booty worth the capture.
17 When the sharp-pointed arrow, O thou Hero, flieth mid any conflict of the people,
When, Faithful One, the dread encounter cometh, then be thou the Protector of our body.
18 Further the holy thoughts of Vamadeva be thou a guileless Friend in fight for booty.
We come to thee whose providence protects us: wide be thy sway for ever for thy singer.
19 O Indra, with these men who love thee truly, free givers, Maghavan, in every battle,
May we rejoice through many autumns, quelling our foes, as days subdue the nights with splendour."

Could you please try to look more precisely; in the fourth mandala there is nothing like that you say about Vamadeva,
or if you think, I couldn't get it, and is still there, please help and give the lines.

anadi
17 April 2011, 05:00 AM
The philosophy of your Gurudeva seems to say that
we jiva-shakti may become the eternal enjoyer of the eternal lady-lovers of the Supreme Lord in category Radha tattva, or Her own expansions (as per Gaudiya tradition) the Lakshmis in the Vaikuntha (spiritual) worlds – Laxmis who may also be seen as indirect expansions of the Lord (Shaktiman) as His consorts.
These consorts are God as women.
In your conception it seems that we- jivas may enjoy the consorts of the Supreme Lord.
As much as I know, shastras speak about this as beeing an idea of the demons:
Ravana wanted Sita, Sankachuda (Kamsa) wanted Radha... and so on.


Which Goddess did Vasistha worship as ... Tara?
From Rig-Veda it cannot be seen any idea that makes Vamadev a worshiper of God as his wife, so that I could conclude Tara would be … that wife… as you put it:

Its Vamadev...rishi who has worshiped God as wife. and about his is mentioned in Rigveda -mandala 4 and and lots of compositions in Rigveda are by him.

Vasistha rishi has worshiped this Goddess as Tara.

anirvan
18 April 2011, 07:51 AM
Anadi ji, i was hesitant to discuss further regarding this topic because i feel you have not understood Advita Vedanta properly,and too much biased on vaishnab literature with dominant Dualistic school of thought and believe that Jeeva atman is eternally tatastha. Again knowledge is GURU-MUKHI, bookish knowledge will create confusion. Again with PANDITYA buddhi this knowledge can”t be understood,it needs Kripa.
Well i will try to explain whatever you asked.

1st—Demonic buddhi is about body consciousness.its about ignorance and is EGO PERSONIFIED and always against the wish of their guru. Ravan,mahisasura and other demons wanted the Consortium of divine in Body consciousness and there was ego and attitude of conquering the physical aspect. And result was always crushing of the demon”s ego by divine. Most beloved Disciple of greatest sages like Sumerudas(KUTHUMI LAL),satchidananda,bakakhepa can”t be gone wrong in spiritual path.
When my gurudev started Tantra sadhna ,it was out of revenge in his previous birth. And he has been one of the greatest Tantrika with major reference tantrika texts followed world wide till now.
His name was Brahmananda giri. By his tapasya he promised Mahashakti of two boons. But since mahashakti refused to be his wife stating that he is not Siva satta. She is Uma,siva grihini.so he has to be siva satta which will be fulfilled only in next birth. Out of anger he carried his sitting stone by Mahashakti which was still lying at Kalitemple now at mayanamati near Dhaka. Because of his negative attitude,he was cursed to be nastika next birth.
When he lost his beloved wife in early age, he was mad like to get back her. Then he got that Badhu bija mantra in dream in a wood apple leaves which was decoded by famous tantra siddha Bamakhepa of Tara peetha . when he was instructed to procedure of japa, he had dilemma of dhyana. Which ROOP he should meditate. Since he was nastika till then,and no beauty was appealing to him more that his wife.....Bamakhepa adviced him to meditate on the form of his wife.and again his aim of sadhna was to get back his wife,not divine.
When he was doing prabajya with his jnani guru,(Satchidananda paramhans of Puskara khetra)he came to Gaurimaa...300yr old kashmiri Brahmin who is till now living in Himalaya.and she asked him to come to her if he attains Nirvikalpa in jnana marga.
When he attained nirvikalpa, he was in swaroop of Aham brahmasmi and GURU-AHOM tattva. And he was never a bhakta with bhakta”s samskar. So never worshipped God with some relationship as with ordinary bhakta samskara.
When his pure advita samskara was broken by Kashi Annapunna,he realized that apart from the advita Brahman,there is something Bhavaloka, which is as truth as nirakar Brahman.now he came to Gaurimaa who is maha bhava swaroopini. She made a huge palace of gold and diamond with all the ingredients of bhava loka for him by wish.
Now again he had dilemma that how he will think of BHAGABAN like ??? since he had no preconceived form,relationship about god. Here Gaurimaa explained” you can think of him as beloved husband and surrender at his feet or you can think of her as your beloved Priyatama.since bhagavan is the all relationship by becoming husband.wife,child,parents etc.. Since his swaroop was Guru,he was eternally established with PURUSH TATTVA, it is impossible to think of him as SEVIKA. Latter thinking was natural to him.now Gaurimaa went into mahabhava and became the woman form of bhagaban and when she touched him,bhavaloka became opened upon him eternally where he found himself as GURU,NITYA PURUSHA and chinmayi nitya thakurani was doing his seva. Subsequently in later part of his life he always see bhagban in that form. Just like where evr eye goes, he sees that chinmayee swaroop of Bhagaban.
Its nothing like Radha or Lakshmi or any consortium of vaishna literature. If you can understand the oneness of Radha-Krishna and their BRAHMA BIBARTA BILASH, you will understand that same bhagaban is taking all form,all relationship for leela.
Just ignore about Vamadeva,since i have read it long time and have no references now, but you can read tantrika texts to find about VASISTHA-ARADHITA TARA and still the temple is there with the legend. I will give you the tantrika texts when will go to my home.

anadi
21 April 2011, 06:59 AM
Anadi ji, i was hesitant to discuss further regarding this topic because i feel you have not understood Advita Vedanta properly,and too much biased on vaishnab literature with dominant Dualistic school of thought and believe that Jeeva atman is eternally tatastha.

Dandavat,
1. Bitte help me to understand Advita Vedanta properly.
2. Where says Sri Caitanya that
-Jeeva atman is eternally tatastha, or where I said it?
-How do you come to this conclusion, please explain.

anirvan
21 April 2011, 07:25 AM
Dandavat,

i hvn"t concluded anything as knowledge is dynamic and we are under influence of some particular thought at one time or other.

Just look into your postings and you can see why i said so. Advita is not some school text i will discuss.even learned pundits who give lengthy talks on advita,i doubt" they understand anything about it. between understanding and realizing Advita is huge difference.i am not saying i have realized in samadhi,but yes i have realized with Gurukripa .

thats why i said about the way nityaloka is ,but unfortunately you said its your Guru"s idea. anyway wishes and love.

God bless you.

anadi
21 April 2011, 01:41 PM
Dandavat,

i hvn"t concluded anything as knowledge is dynamic and we are under influence of some particular thought at one time or other.

Just look into your postings and you can see why i said so.

Dandavat,
thank you for the good
wishes, and may Krishna be merciful with you.

I thought, and maybe I think,that it might be possible to learn something from you.

I'll help with some ideas about advaita, and I wait for your commentaries,if you have any, to show why the wiew given below cannot be true, based on what your realizations and knowledge.

Sri Sankaracarya has used Vedanta-sutra to support the so called
theory of illusion, known as vivarta-vada. He said that
one compromises the very essence of brahma if one accepts any
transformation in brahma,
and accordingly in his conception the doctrine of transformation (parinama-vada) is completely faulty, and that vivarta-vada is the only reasonable philosophy.

Sadananda’s famous Vedanta-sara (59) says

sa-tattvato ‘nyatha-buddhir vikara ity udahritah
atattvato'nyatha buddhir vivarta ity udahritah

The perception of a different object when a real object takes another form is called vikara-modification .
Perception of a different object when there is actually no different object is called vivarta - illusion.

Brahma is accepted as a vastu "basic substance", from which two
separate products seem to appear, namely the individual souls and this
material world.
The appearance of substances that are different in nature from the original substance is known as vikara, (modification).
What is a vikara? the verse says that it is just something appearing to be what it is actually not - an illusion - vivarta.
So there would be no vikara - modification or parinama - transformation.

That woud mean that whatever comes from braham is vivarta - illusion,
like the souls, and the material world coming from brahma,
That means, the spiritual souls are illusion and this world is illusion.

This is not "quite" true, as long as the spiritual souls are an eternal reality, not an illusion,
having the opportunity to take different kinds of spiritual bodies in the spiritual worlds of Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana,
and this truth contradicts the theory of vivarta, which upholds the doctrine of advaita-vada, which under these circumstances seem to be both untrue.

There are two types of parinama vada which we may also discuss, when we finish the vivarta - advaita vada theory.

anirvan
22 April 2011, 08:26 AM
[QUOTE=anadi;63362]Dandavat,

This is not "quite" true, as long as the spiritual souls are an eternal reality, not an illusion,
having the opportunity to take different kinds of spiritual bodies in the spiritual worlds of Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana,
and this truth contradicts the theory of vivarta, which upholds the doctrine of advaita-vada, which under these circumstances seem to be both untrue.

Dandavat Anadi ji,

because of above belief of you,i said you are saying the eternity of tatastha !anyway leave it now.

so you are rejecting advita by the fact that since Spiritual bodies like Golak,vaikuntha are not corroborating with the explanation of advita brahma vivarta ??

ok, gaudiya vaishnavites reject advita brahman-vivarta vada because their end doesn"t be explained by advita theory.

and Advita followers reject the very existence of such spiritual body saying that these are again illusion,creation of maya by constant thinking and imagination.

then how you will disprove above facts???

i am not supporting advitin"s view though.

so i will request you explain regarding few following questions and the two Parinama-vada ,i will then explain where lies misunderstanding of advitin,GV and what my Gurudev has made the solution.
1-what bastu or parinam do you understand about SPIRITUAL BODIES?

2-what are your thinking about real meaning of Vivarta ?is it illusion or something else?

3- please write about your thought Parinama-vada ?

Harekrishna

anadi
22 April 2011, 10:38 AM
Dandavat,

This is not "quite" true, as long as the spiritual souls are an eternal reality, not an illusion,
having the opportunity to take different kinds of spiritual bodies in the spiritual worlds of Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana,
and this truth contradicts the theory of vivarta, which upholds the doctrine of advaita-vada, which under these circumstances seem to be both untrue.

Dandavat Anadi ji,

because of above belief of you,i said you are saying the eternity of tatastha !anyway leave it now.

Dandavat,

If Tatastha sakti would be not eternal, than the souls coming from the Tatastha region, would have no chance to get into the eternal world and becoming eternal associates of the Supreme Lord as in the samipya type of mukti in the Vaikuntha worlds (by following of vaidhi bhakti) or eternal associate of the same Supreme Lord, in His madhura mood in Goloka Vrindavan.

Any sakti of the Lord is eternal, only that sometime is manifested, and sometimes not. These saktis exist as potencies of brahma.

Sri Krishna says:

Na Tv evAhaM jAtu nAsaM / na tvaM neme janAdhipAH
Na caiva na bhaviSyAmaH / sarve vayam ataH param

“Most certainly tu eva there never was a time na jAtu that I did not exist aham na Asam nor you na tvam nor these personalities na jana adhipAH.
Also ca hereafter ataH param all of us sarve vayam certainly eva will not cease to exist na bhaviSyAmaH”.

So according to this skloka it seems that the souls (coming from tatastha) are eternal.

anadi
22 April 2011, 11:24 AM
so you are rejecting advita by the fact that since Spiritual bodies like Golak,vaikuntha are not corroborating with the explanation of advita brahma vivarta ??

Dandavat,
it is not only the falacy of vivarta-vada, which makes Advaita theory less attractive, but advaita theory as presented by the advaitins seems to be also against sastra.

I think there are many exemples;
first they reduce the spiritual reality to brahma, considering it the only absolut reality, and spiritual realization.

The most famous Vyasadeva is against the advaitins, as he writes that there are three type of realisation of the Absolute Truth:

In Bhagavata Purana 1.2.11, the spiritual realization is described as being of three basic types:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas / tattvaM yaj jJAnam advayam
brahmeti paramAtmeti / bhagavAn iti zabdyate

“It is said, that the ones that realized the Truth
know that the Absolute Truth is not dual
and their realization (may be different)
Brahman, ParamAtmA and BhagavAn.“

So it seems that there is not only one type of Absolute Truth or eternal reality.

anadi
22 April 2011, 12:09 PM
ok, gaudiya vaishnavites reject advita brahman-vivarta vada because their end doesn"t be explained by advita theory.

Dandavat,
Both vivarta-vada and advaita-vada seem to be against sastra.
As many arguments from the Puranas showed the falacy of advaita-vada, the last argumentation of advaitins is, that they do not accept Puranas as sastra, which is again against sastra, as long as Vyasadeva himself says that Puranas should be seen as the fifth Veda.

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah (Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah (Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda."

evaM vA are asya mahato bhUtasya nizvasitam etad yad
Rg-vedo yajur-vedaH sAma-vedo’tharvAGgirasa itihAsaH purANam (MaitreyI UpaniSad)

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."

anadi
22 April 2011, 12:41 PM
Advita followers reject the very existence of such spiritual body saying that these are again illusion,creation of maya by constant thinking and imagination.

then how you will disprove above facts???

This argument has also some week points, in my opinion.
1. If sadhana would be based on imagination than their own realization of brahma can be considered on that level, and they should became materialist, as this material world would reamain as the only reality.
2. One should enquire and study carefully the nature of Vaishnava sadhana, to understand that even if in the begining one may "imagine" a certain spiritual reality and one's own spiritual body, one's own beloved Lord, and one's relation with Him, this is only a way to direct the mind towards the Absolute. The true realisation is of an entire other nature, and if one has knowledge of sastra, one may realize, what kind of realisation one attained.

The fact that such spiritual body exist, is also given in the sastra.

narAH sUrya-prabhAs tatra / zitAMzu-sama-darzanAH
tejasA durNirikSyAz ca / devAnAm api yAdava

Lord BrahmA said: My four sons Sanaka, SanAtana, Sanandana and Sanat-kumAra, who were born from my mind, are your predecessors. Sometimes they travel throughout all the worlds without any definite desire. (SB 3.15.12)

ta ekada bhagavato /vaikuNThasyAmalAtmanaH
yayur vaikuNTha-nilayaM / sarva-loka-namaskRtam (SB 3.15.13)

Once upon a time – ekada, being freed from all material contamination (pure souls)– AmalAtmanaH they – te entered – yayur the abode named VaikuNTha - vaikuNTha-nilayaM, of that Supreme Lord – bhagavato, who dwells in VaikuNTha – vaikuNThasyA, and is worshiped by the residents of all the planets - sarva-loka-namaskRtam.

From this recount of Lord BrahmA you can see that they didn’t merge with Brahman, as per advaita-vada, but they entered VaikuNTha, and they kept their pure, spiritualized bodies.

vasanti yatra puruSAH / sarve vaikuNTha-mUrtayaH
ye ’nimitta-nimittena / dharmeNArAdhayan harim (SB 3.15.14)

All persons - puruSAH sarve that live there - vasanti yatra, have the form (similar) of the Lord of vaikuNTha - vaikuNTha-mUrtayaH. They worship – Adhayan the Suprem Lord – harim, due to- nimittena their own true, innate, propensity (bhakti) – dharmeNA, without any desire for sense gratification – animitta.

anadi
22 April 2011, 12:50 PM
[quote=anadi;63362]i am not supporting advitin"s view though.

Dandavat,
until this sentence I thought you do support advaita-vada.

anadi
22 April 2011, 12:59 PM
so i will request you explain regarding few following questions and the two Parinama-vada ,i will then explain where lies misunderstanding of advitin,GV and what my Gurudev has made the solution.
1-what bastu or parinam do you understand about SPIRITUAL BODIES?

2-what are your thinking about real meaning of Vivarta ?is it illusion or something else?

3- please write about your thought Parinama-vada ?

Harekrishna

Dandavat,
please be patient and wait until tomorow. I hope tomorow I may get the time to answer most of the questions, and make a reasonable presentation of the two types of parinama-vada.
If you want to already post the solution of your Gurudev, feel free to do it.

anadi
23 April 2011, 10:08 AM
1-what bastu or parinam do you understand about SPIRITUAL BODIES?

Dandavat,

The spiritual bodies, which are eternal forms of the spiritual world, belong to the internal potency - cit sakti. Sri Caitanya says in His instructions to Sanatan Gosvami (Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 20.111)

krishnera svabhavika tina-sakti-parinati
cic-chakti, jiva-sakti, ara maya-sakti

(From the) own (desire) mood of Krishna (there are) three energetic transformations - krishnera svabhavika tina-sakti-parinati
energy of the spiritual world - cit sakti.
energy of the marginal world - jiva sakti
and energy of the material world - maya sakti.

anadi
23 April 2011, 10:44 AM
2-what are your thinking about real meaning of Vivarta ?is it illusion or something else?

Dandavat,

Vivarta means mistaking one thing for another.

The jiva is an atomic, spiritual substance, but when she is bewildered,
she imagines that the subtle and gross bodies in which
she is encaged are her self. This bewilderment is ignorance born
of lack of knowledge, and it is the only example of vivarta found
in the Vedas.

Advaita-vadis establish their own theory of vivarta-vAda, not that which is in the Vedas.

They say that the idea “I am brahma” is true understanding,
and the idea “I am a jiva” is vivarta -an illusion (jiva would have no eternal existence and "merge" into brahma loosing the idea of identity).

Their argument: because there is no modification of brahma, jiva= brahma. They don`t (want to) know anything about sakti-parinam-vada.

They state also that the Supreme Lord -bhagavAn is subordinate to mAyA, and has to take shelter of her when He needs to come to this material world, namely He needs a material body, which is again against sastra.

They don`t (want to) know that Para-brahma – Bhagavan is beyond brahma.
An explanation of the relation between Bhagavan, brahma and sakti-parinam-vada comes in the next post.

anadi
23 April 2011, 11:19 AM
3- please write about your thought Parinama-vada ?

Dandavat,

There are two kinds of parinama-vada:
- brahma-parinama-vada (the doctrine of transformation of brahma), and
- sakti-parinama-vada (the doctrine of the transformation of energy).

Those who accept brahma-parinama-vada (the transformation
of brahma) say that the acintya (inconceivable) and nirvisesa
(formless) brahma transforms itself into both living beings and
the inert material world. To support this belief, they quote from
the Chandogya Upanisad (6.2.1),
ekam eva advitiyam,
“Before the manifestation there existed only a non-dual (… let´s call it “substance”.”

According to this Vedic mantra, brahma is the one and only vastu
which we should accept. This theory is also known as non-dualism,
or advaita-vada.

The problem that we have here is that brahma is declared unchangeable, so there can be no transformation of it.

Sakti-parinama-vada do not accept any sort of transformation in brahma. Rather the inconceivable sakti, or potency of that “substance” called brahma, is transformed.
The jiva-sakti portion of the potency of brahma transforms
into the individual spirit jivas,
and the maya-sakti portion transforms into the material world.

There is parinama (transformation), but not of brahma, rather of its potency.

In this connection, as recorded in Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 20.108-109) Sri Krishna Caitanya said:

jīvera svarūpa haya — kṛṣṇera nitya-dāsa
kṛṣṇera taṭasthā-śakti' bhedābheda-prakāśa

sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya
svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra śakti haya

The true, eternal, form of the jiva is that of an eternal (loving) servant of Krishna - jīvera svarūpa haya — kṛṣṇera nitya-dāsa
He is the marginal potency of Krishna, and is a manifestation
simultaneously identical with Him, and different from Him -kṛṣṇera taṭasthā-śakti' bhedābheda-prakāśa

(The soul is like) a particle -aḿśa of the energetic efulgence (jiva-sakti portion of the potency, here compared with the ray of the sun)- kiraṇa
(of brahma), which is compared with the sun – sūrya
- sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa

To make it more clear Sri Caitanya gives one more example:

The souls a also compared to sparks – caya of the flames – jvālā which represent the tatastha potency of
brahma, which is compared with the fire -agni-jvālā-caya

(The souls) are (one of) the three types of energy (potency of brahma) - haya tina-prakāra śakti
(coming from) the internal mood (desire) of Krishna – sva bhavika kṛṣṇera

What makes this potencies become manifested?
Something which is beyond brahma, the para-brahma, namely bhagavan and His eternal realms of bhava, full of movement and desire. The advaita-vadis do not (want to) know this. (Desire is an independent sakti - satantra)
It is the desire of para-brahma which makes the unmovable, desireless brahma to move.

The “substance” brahma is not modified, but out of it come the jiva sakti and maya sakti, in the same way as from the cintAmani gem many varieties
of jewels can be produced, but the gem is not transformed or deformed itself in any way.

anirvan
25 April 2011, 08:17 AM
dandavat,

Then why jiva can become so fallen to act as demon? if gem is not changing,so why so diversity?

what is difference between sun,sun rays? what is difference between jwala,caya ?

And what do you think about PORTION? maya portion,jeeva portion? how one"s potency can be different from him?

How can a rational thinking human can even imagine ATOM/SPARK concept of individual soul. so the soul is like something battery or engine which is fitted in our body? and it was cut off from some jiva portion and fitted into a body made up of maya portion?

And Spiritual portion is made from which parinam vad? it must have some bulding material?

Parinam happened to potency of Brahman ? not brahman itself. again how is it different from Para-brahman then?

again where is the contradiction of eternal spiritual body,bhagaban and eternal servanthood of jeeva in the realm of advita vedanta???

just go 3-4 post by me also before reply.i will explain everything but there is absolutely no contradiction between this supreme leela and advita brahhman vada.


http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=7151&page=3

smaranam
25 April 2011, 12:24 PM
Hare KrushNa

Several things.

As Anadiji points out, the biggest thing is that Keval Advaita not only puts a dead end at nirguN nirAkAr Brahma , it says that BhagvAn (Ishwar) is within the scope of mAyA - the advaitin supposedly "overcomes", "crosses" or "surpasses" Ishvar whose form, qualities are all mAyA. The VaishNavs will never agree to that.

To this the keval advaitins will argue: The statement is "Aham BrahmAsmi" and not "Aham IshwarAsmi", the enlightened does not understand everything, all quantum mechanics.

So, are the keval advaitins accepting that their nirvANa does not imply omnicience, omnipotence ? Are they accepting that the enlightened does not become God with the ability to create, but only realizes the golden substance they are made of viz. Brahma ?

If yes, to me that makes the kevala advaitins alchemists of Brahma - they study the gold-tattva of the golden effulgence of Brahma[-jyoti].

**The reason they do not want to know or acknowledge Ishvar's eternal transcendental form, is because it comes in the way of the alchemy-jnana in this life : Focus one-pointedly on the nirAkAr, attribute-less, quality-less golden substance. The chemistry-base of God, not the executive Love of God.

**THEN, if BhagvAn wills, the keval advaitin alchemists may get out of their one-pointed jnAna focus and work their way into His Leelas - which is a very esoteric yog between BhagvAn the Sun and His jvAlaA-sparks, the jeev. It is not some imagination of the mind. However, many keval-advaitins will deny this in the current lifetime - saying that turya is the highest state and it goes beyond "saguN Brahma" i.e. Ishvar (!).

Devotees' (bhakta) one-pointed focus is on the diametrically opposite: to directly develop a loving relationship with sarva-kAraNa-kAraNam BhagavAn, Ishwar, free of jn~Ana (and of course free of karma-phal-apekshA).

So, although advaita is the basis, which achintya-bheda-abheda never denied, achintya-bheda-abheda and Bhagvad-bhakti fills the 90% space that kevala advaita leaves empty: simultaneous inconceivable oneness and difference. Aham Brahmasmi and Tat Tvam Asi is only 0.01% of the vedas acc. to achintya-bheda-abheda.

The issue they take with keval advaita is that 99.99% gets tossed into the "vyavahArik bucket" which is actually eternally pArmArthik. Nitya Bhagvad Leela are the highest parmArtha which are mistaken as vyavahArik.

An overlap of what AnirvanJi has said in those 3-4 posts on that advaita thread can be found here, a few posts earlier on the same thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=60445&postcount=13 a few posts earlier on the same thread.

---- continued ----

smaranam
25 April 2011, 12:29 PM
I like to look at it as BhagvAn / Ishvar playing a gigantic N-player board game with Himself. The only thing is, in the material world, one has to get up and move to the other side of the table to roll the die and move the pegs.
Since BhagvAn is beyond time and space (AND MAYA), He does not have to get up and move around the table, just has to glance and wish and dream - and it happens - since He is absolute.

That is why the universe is Shri VishNu's dream. He merely glances at Prakruti, and Prakruti understands what He wants to happen, as She is tadAtmic with Him.

-------

Finally, here is my understanding of vivarta:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=40498&postcount=5

Adi ShankarAchArya may have intentionally left loose ends for a small fraction of his alchemist followers to enter Bhagvad-lila.

praNAm
Shri KrushNa sharaNam mama

smaranam
25 April 2011, 01:42 PM
Hare KrushNa , AnirvanJi,



again where is the contradiction of eternal spiritual body,bhagaban and eternal servanthood of jeeva in the realm of advita vedanta???

Yes, where is the contradiction ? :)

To me,
the pure jn~Ani is "in the mood of" nirguN-nirAkAr brahma, and
the highest bhakta is "in the mood of" Radha :)

- now that does not mean other bhAvs are not highest. For the jiva's constitutional position is the highest bhAv for that particular jiva.

This is the closest one comes with losing one's identity - is to become tadAtmic with a bhAv - whether it is the bhAv of a particular nitya-siddha or that of nirguNatva as in attribute-less (since there is another true meaning to nirguNatva - untouched by triguNa and maya).

In reality the basic advaita is there, the problem is with the final siddhAnta and its claim to the definition of what is The Ultimate, not with actual existential advaita as spoken of in the Vedas.

praNAm

hṛdayaṁ madhuraṁ gamanaṁ madhuraṁ madhurAdhipater akhilam madhuram ~

smaranam
25 April 2011, 01:47 PM
Nobody comes short by the pastimes of Krishna.

This is ALL that we need to know :)

praNAm
dṛṣṭaṁ madhuraṁ śiṣṭaṁ madhuraṁ
madhur-ādhi-pater akhilaṁ madhuraṁ || Madhurashtak 7 ||

anirvan
26 April 2011, 12:44 AM
I like to look at it as BhagvAn / Ishvar playing a gigantic N-player board game with Himself. The only thing is, in the material world, one has to get up and move to the other side of the table to roll the die and move the pegs.
Since BhagvAn is beyond time and space (AND MAYA), He does not have to get up and move around the table, just has to glance and wish and dream - and it happens - since He is absolute.

That is why the universe is Shri VishNu's dream. He merely glances at Prakruti, and Prakruti understands what He wants to happen, as She is tadAtmic with Him.

-------

Finally, here is my understanding of vivarta:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=40498&postcount=5

Adi ShankarAchArya may have intentionally left loose ends for a small fraction of his alchemist followers to enter Bhagvad-lila.

praNAm
Shri KrushNa sharaNam mama

Pranam, you are absolutely right to explain what i wanted to say.the carrom board concept.

As i have understood from a topic by my Gurudev about MUKTI, its a complex subject. Advita nirvana is of several kind according to one"s swabhava,one"s path to achieve it.

He says that after Jnana,its natural that Bhakti and bhava comes to one. since as per BG jNANI IS DEAREST DEVOTEE TO Srikrishna,he is krishna"s heart and soul.

but this doesn"t happens in all cases.particularly Buddhist,jainism,samhya, and those paths with dry jnana. in my gurudev"s word " with dry,rude type of jnana and similar dry,heartless practices...their heart becomes like rock....a peculiar ,jada (dead like) state.

even if they get mokhsa, but its like a dead stage.its only mukti from sorrows.
in their cases,the chance of blooming of flower of bhava is dead already.its like leaving Ghee for castor oil.

according to him regarding mukti...its total devoid of sorrow(common to all philosophy),and absolute fulfillment with bliss.

so bhakti is absolutely must in any kind of mokhsa sadhna.naturally after jnana,bhakti is bound to come. but those blessed one, they should pursue bhava sadhna from begining.

Shankaracharya was very much aware of this thing and according to Gurudev he was complete in bhava ,but he remain silent in his teachings about bhava sadhna because that time was not ready for those things.the soil was cultivated so that Chaitanya dev will come in subsequent time for real bhava preaching.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6767

in this link,post no 10 i have posted little about understanding of Vivarta.

anirvan
26 April 2011, 12:53 AM
Those who are neither vaishnav,nor advitin...but mudha ajnani....they tend to fight and accuse each other.but to a true vaishnav and true jnani...there is no opposition and no fight.

vaishnav say they want to eat sweet,dont want to become sweet. but my gurudev says....its very wrong comparision since they dont know grapes,so say grape is sour.

the true quote will be....Vaishnava wants to eat rasgolla,sandesh,burfi,jalebi,rasmalai separately and taste differently.its called LEELANANDA.

bRAHMANANDA...of advitin is like get all the sweets together in mixed form and eat it.

But for a Lover,a true Rasika/romantics...Leelananda is desirable.

True vedantin always attain brahmananda.but those dry jnani with rude path,rude philosophy remains in nirguna state like susupti,far away from brahmananda.

anadi
26 April 2011, 05:23 AM
Dandavat,


there are again many questions, i will try to answer them one by one, as the time will allow it. I'll start with the first one:


Then why jiva can become so fallen to act as demon? if gem is not changing,so why so diversity?

The cintamani gem is not changing, but according one's wish can produce whatever one desires. In the some way, according to the wish of bhagavan out of brahma the maya potency and the jiva potency come out. This process is called shrishti lila – the pastime of creation.


To understand this lila, which is one type of the plays of the Supreme Lord, and also to understand how is it possible for the jiva to become so fallen and be a demon, you should know how this lila starts, and go deeper and deeper. Read carefully Bhagavat-purana.


Bhagavat Puran 2.5.21-24:


kālaḿ karma svabhāvaḿ ca
māyeśo māyayā svayā
ātman yadṛcchayā prāptaḿ
vibubhūṣur upādade


The Controller of the energy accomplished the manifestation- māyeśo prāptaḿ vibubhūṣur
of time, activities, and one’s own nature - kālaḿ karma svabhāvaḿ ca
through His own energy - māyayā svayā
offering Himself of His own accord - upādade ātman yadṛcchayā


Out of brahma, by the wish of the Supreme Lord, is created the first element, which is the
basis of creation. This element is the fundamental principle of creation – pradhana – and is called False Identification – ahamkar - which is the element that the Supreme Lord wants to be acted on the actors of the play – the jivas.
And because the wish of the Lord is Supreme, when the jivas get into the play they are enveloped first in this covering called False Ego.


The Supreme Lord agitate with his glance this pradhana, to give different colors to it.
The first three “colors” are the so called Modes of the False Identification, namely
False Identification in Goodness (ahamkara in sattva-guna)
False Identification in Passion (ahamkara in raja-guna)s
False Identification in Ignorance (ahamkara in tam-guna)

so 'hańkāra iti prokto
vikurvan samabhūt tridhā
vaikārikas taijasaś ca
tāmasaś ceti yad-bhidā
dravya-śaktiḥ kriyā-śaktir
jñāna-śaktir iti prabho

O master, thus it is said - prabho iti prokto
that the very same thing (the whole material existence spoken of in the previous verse) - saḥ
which is the the concept of being the doer – or the false ego - ahańkāraḥ
being transformed, became manifested in three features - vikurvan samabhūt tridhā
the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance - vaikārikaḥ taijasaḥ ca tāmasaḥ
and thus was divided into ca iti yat bhidā
the energy of solid things (coresponding to ignorance) dravya-śaktiḥ
the energy of creation (coresponding to passion) kriyā-śaktiḥ
and the energy of knowledge (coresponding to goodness) jñāna-śaktiḥ



Then the Supreme Lord in His form of Maha-Vishnu creates the bricks of His construction.


I won't go into more detail about the creation, but continue with jiva-tattva.
After the universes were anew created by Maha-Vishnu, out of His glace came the jivas.


The jivas, who by the last play didn't get liberation from ahamkara, and had to merge into the body of the Lord – Maha – Vishnu, are impregnated direct in the material universes and take the same positions they had before last Maha-Pralaya, and the jivas that have never been in the material world are thrown in the Causal Ocean – Tatastha Region, and may have a choice.


Verse 7.9.32 of Bhagavat Puran, where Prhalad addresses the Lord Nrisimha -deva.

nyasyedam ātmani jagad vilayāmbu-madhye
śeṣetmanā nija-sukhānubhavo nirīhaḥ
yogena mīlitadṛgātmanipīta-nidras
turye sthito na tu tamo na guṇāḿś ca yuńkṣe

With eyes half closed - mīlitadṛg absorbed in Yourself -ātmanipīta
situated in the transcendental sleeping like state of contemplation –yoga nidra turye sthito
but not in the darkness of the material modes of nature na tu tamo guṇā
you linked with the (water of) dissolution – yuńkṣe
the sleeping and inactive souls in yourself śeṣetmanā nija nirīha
(which) experienced happiness (of spiritual bliss) sukhānubhavo
throwing these souls nyasyedam ātmani
in the midst (of the waters) of dissolution (and creation) of the universe - jagad vilayāmbu-madhye

To make it shortly, according to jiva's association with the Modes of False Ego, in time, jivas may develop the false conception of being the Supreme, which is the false conception of the so called demons (according the false identification). Jiva remains always pure... she is only bewitched to think of being something... she is not.

anirvan
26 April 2011, 07:23 AM
i will put your above post as per advita vedanta.....

1- Bhagaban (adi mahavishnu....nitya bhagaban)
This concept remains silent with Pure advitin
but this is well recognized by Purna jnani(advtin-premika)

2- Nirguna brahman

3- wish to create arise in Nirguna brahman
Vaishnav says its wish of Bhagaban(1)
Advitin says this wish is inherent in Nirguna brahman(2)

4-Saguna brahman(brahman plus maya)
Panji karan (theory of creation of jada and chetan jeeva)
1st Aham tattva--2nd Maha tattva --3rd buddhi,4th mind
5th- five sukhma mahabhuta,6th-five sthula mahabhuta
7th-5 jnanendriya,5 karmendriya

Here jeeva soul is not something atomic portion/potency
But the reflection of this nirguna brahman by action of
maya. here the dualist gets confused. brahman can not
divided,as he is always achintya,achedya,unmovable,
abikara. so how can he be covered by maya tattva???
its the maya that creates ignorance in buddhi (buddhi is
itself maya,not brahman). leave it here.will come to this
later.

Advitin call this Saguna brahman as Eshwar and this
eshwar is clearly under maya. but TRUE ADVITIN who
also enters bhava tattva never call this Eshwar as Bhag-
aban. he knows very well that mula bhagaban is above
it (1) who can"t be influenced by maya.his birth is tranc-
dental.

5- this jeeva concepts is illusion as its only a shadow of
Nirguna brahman( image of sun in water pots) and two
birds on a tree,1 at top(witness),2nd at down-enjoying

subsequently after your post,i will show you how these apparently opposite concepts are same and one thing.only WORDS are the culprit and creating illusion.

anadi
27 April 2011, 12:04 PM
what is difference between sun,sun rays? what is difference between jwala,caya ?

Dandavat,

The sun is bhagavan. The sun rays are his jiva shakti,
and the particles in the rays of the sun are the jivas.
All are in quality the same, but one jiva is not the whole jiva shakti.
In the same way one spark of the flames of fire, is not the flames.
This idea can be found in the Vedas:

yathAgneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti
evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (2.1.20)

“All (not one, but countless - some advaitins pretend that there is only one soul) living beings (souls) emanate - sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti
from the Suprem Soul (Atman), like tiny sparks – kSudrA visphuliNgA
from a fire (AgneH).”

Additional explanation regarding the relation between brahma and bhagavan:

Svetshvatara Upanishad 6.1-3

svabhAvameke kavayo vadanti
kAlaN parimuhyamAnAH
devasyaiza mahimA tu loke
yenedaM bhrAmyate brahma chakram

Thinkers whose mind is bewildered say - kavayo vadanti parimuhyamAnAH
(it is) the nature alone (and) the time - svabhAvameke kAlaN
by whom the wheel of Brahman is revolved - yenedaM brahma chakram bhrAmyate
But in the world there is the greatness of the Lord of Lords (that do that) - tu loke mahimA devasyaiza

Tika:
In my opinion one can see from this verse that Brahma is not directly the Lord, but the energy of the Lord, as previously described, is kept in motion by other energies of the Lord, as His mahima – greatness.
The next verse will stress this idea. Speaking further about this world, the Lord - Isa, is described not as the one made of those gunas but as the one that made them.

yenAvRtaN nityamidaN hi sarvaN jJaH
kAlakAro guNI sarvavidah yaH
tenezitaN karma vivartate ha
pRthivyaptejonilakhAni cintyam

One should know This (the Lord) by which all (the world) is always enveloped - yenAvRtaN nityamidaN hi sarvaN jJaH
and is the one producing the time, (and) the qualities, the one who knows everything - kAlakAro guNI sarvavidah yaH
by which the Lord (as the Controller –Iza) acts upon the illusory (energy) certainly - karma vivartate ha
the earth, obtained from the source of hundreds of thousands of considerations pRthivyaptejonilakhAni cintyam.

tatkarma kRtvA vinivartya bhUya
stattvasya tAvena sametya yogam
ekena dvAbhyAN tRbhiraSTabhirvA
kAlena caivAtmaguNaizca suxmaiH

He sets the creation in motion and again withdraw Himself from it, - tatkarma kRtvA vinivartya bhUya
He unites that which spiritual (the souls) with the principle of Matter – stattvasya tAvena sametya yogam

(In this connection bhagavan Sri Krishna explained Himself to Arjuna (in Bhagavad-gita) that
the spiritual souls are His para-prakriti – a superior sat energy in relation to the other eight material (asat) elements.
And in this verse is written about the assembling of the souls with the material elements.)

with one (material element)- ekena (false ego),
with two - dvAbhyAN (false ego, mind),
with three (false ego, mind and intelligence) -tRbhir
and with eight (false ego, mind, intelligence, space, air, fire, water and earth)) – aSTabhirvA
through the instrumentality of time and their own inherent subtle properties - kAlena caivAtmaguNaizca suxmaiH.

anirvan
28 April 2011, 01:44 AM
[QUOTE=anadi;63814]Dandavat,

The sun is bhagavan. The sun rays are his jiva shakti,
and the particles in the rays of the sun are the jivas.
All are in quality the same, but one jiva is not the whole jiva shakti.
In the same way one spark of the flames of fire, is not the flames.
This idea can be found in the Vedas:

yathAgneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti
evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (2.1.20)

“All (not one, but countless - some advaitins pretend that there is only one soul) living beings (souls) emanate - sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti
from the Suprem Soul (Atman), like tiny sparks – kSudrA visphuliNgA
from a fire (AgneH).”

Dandavat,

I asked is there any difference between sunrays and sun? I am not asking about quality wise. is it like sun is made of condensed collection of those particles,and sunrays are more scattered ones?

Since sun rays can"t be separated from sun (like obstruct sun,there will be no rays),they are never separated,so they are one quality wise as well as according their existence. its because of maya, dualism appears. these maya creates multiple mirrors....jeeva sarira made up of 5 materialistic elements upon which the reflection of supreme appears as different satta/existence.

Like you can"t separate potency of a individual from individual existence wise.
there can never be two souls,but one and only. but Bhakta always wants to keep that separateness eternally............so supreme grants them that eternality ......in the form of nitya sevak costumes. its chinmaya and different from mortal body of earth. its a 19/20 situation.eternal sevaka is 19 parts out of 20 parts self realized and supreme is 20 out of 20 self swaroop.

Its the voluntary acceptance of eternity in the costume of srikrishna"s nitya sevaka by a bhakta.he never want to be brahman,but servant of brahman.

Brahman here is Personal form of Brahman,not impersonal form of advitin.

anadi
28 April 2011, 05:06 AM
And what do you think about PORTION?

dandavat,

The Lord possesses countless portions, or potencies,
you should not understand them in material terms of dravya objects,
in the sense that you take a portion of a material object and this becomes less.
The Lord remains always the same complete Lord
Even the maya portion (or type) of the Lord’s energy has no limits.

anadi
28 April 2011, 05:14 AM
how one"s potency can be different from him?

dandavat,

In Gaudiya Vaishanva opinion,
There is not only sameness but also difference.
Here it is:
1. Potency belong to the possessor of potency, but not the other way around. Shakti belong to Shaktiman (the Supreme Lord) not the other way around. The Supreme Lord is not the possession of jiva, or maya.
2. The possesor of the potency is the Controller of his potency, not the other way around.

Of course there is an exception. When for example the individual jiva (shakti) takes shelter of prema shakti,
than shaktiman - the Supreme Lord gives Himself to the devotee ,
and the Lord let Himself be controlled through the energy of Love (which in itself is devotion – bhakti) .
Only bhakti has that power, and that is why is being said that prema-bhakti is extremely rare.

anadi
28 April 2011, 05:19 AM
How can a rational thinking human can even imagine ATOM/SPARK concept of individual soul. so the soul is like something battery or engine which is fitted in our body? and it was cut off from some jiva portion and fitted into a body made up of maya portion?
dandavat,

1. The revealed scripture say that the soul is like a spark, as already posted; See BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (2.1.20).
2. The materialists think that the energy of the body is provided by air, water, food, etc.
As you probably know many yogis in the past, and even nowadays may live without these things.
And only when that which illuminates the body (the soul and the Supersoul) live the body, that body ceases to function.
This has something to do with the prescribed length of life of jiva in a certain body.
3. The idea of cutting the individual jiva from jiva shakti is due to a materialistic thinking in terms of dravya (solid) objects. In material terms you may meditate on the words of Sri Krishna Caitanya:

The soul is like a particle aḿśa of the ray - kiraṇa of the sun – sūrya
The soul is like a spark – caya of the flames – jvālā of the fire - agni

anadi
28 April 2011, 11:03 AM
And Spiritual portion is made from which parinam vad? it must have some bulding material?
dandavat,

The spiritual portion, or the cit shakti, has herself three spiritual potencies:
Hladini – ecstatic pleasure , samvit – knowledge potency and sandini – eternal existence ,
which are described in Vishnu Puran 1.12.48. as being the “substance” that makes the body of the Supreme Lord... and also all the spiritual bodies.
If one meditates on such a body, one gets a body like that.
If one meditates only on liberation, one gets only liberation... as a spiritual particle, being not qualified to get into Vaikuntha, and one remains stuck in the brahma barrier.

anirvan
29 April 2011, 08:59 AM
I know about the cit-shakti and hladini,sandini,sambit.

bhagvan has infinite shaktis,among antaranga(inner) shakti,above three are prominent. among bahiranga (outer )shaktis prominent are mahamaya,yogamaya etc.

But how for god"s shake Brahman can be a obstacle to Bhagavan???

if you can reach surya-mandal,you are closer to surya.as simple as it is. so how can it be obstacle.

Just think one this line,your confusion will dissapear.

Advitin says two birds on a tree. upper bird is brahman(mayadhisha),lower one is jiva(mayadhina). ok?the 3rd bird has shed his personal form and merged with 2nd bird. ok?

GV(vaishnav) says three bird on a tree. upper bird is bhagaban(srikrishna), middle bird is brahman,and lower bird is jiva. right?

My Gurudev"s solution to this problem is simple......


Advitin (true advitin) feels The Bhagban is merged within brahman.so that extra-components(like cit-shakti including Hladini) is included in param-brahman.those advitin with dominant bhakti bhava will naturally ascend above the brahman to Golok after brahma-jnana.

Vaishnab says...this extra-component is separated and in personal form and staying above brhman as spiritual bodies and goloka.For Bhaktas, bhagavan has created a separate place...that is above brahman.....for leela and which is eternal.

Advitin merge in Brahmananda,but dont want it in personal form,
Vaishnab merge in Leela-nanda..which is personal form.

its like one person was given mango and other one with apple.both are tasting the fruits first time.and apple eater is accusing mango eater that your mango is so bland,my apple is best fruits in taste.similarly mango eater is accusing apple eater that mango is best,you are unfortunate that you can never know how mango is like.

Its the aim of sadhna that matters.if one wish for mokhsa,nitya-bhava lok will never reveal to him,but mokhsa only. if one wish leela of bhava loka,leela will be revealed to him,not nityananda.

TWO TRUTHS ARE THERE...two side of same coin...of paramabrahman

1-NITYA---SWAROOP JNANA....they will merge into brahmananda,Leela will be illusory to him.(so they without understanding accuse Bhaktas as maya mugdha and are in illusion of maya)

2-LEELA---LEELANANDA in Nitya loka...they will enter into eternal leela with bhagaban with Roopa and ranga, Nitya-swaroop( swaroop jnana-brahman consciousness will be illusory to them.so they tends to ridicule advitin)

Only Paramajnani-purnajnani who has ASCENDED IN ANALYTICAL PATH(JANAN MARGA) AND DESCENDED IN SYNTHETIC PATH(BHAKTI MARGA) IS THE ONLY KNOWER OF TWO ASPECTS OF PARAMBRAHMAN AND HE IS ONLY COMPLETE,HE IS GREATEST PREMIKA .

This is the teaching of bhagabatgita. Jnani is my atma,he is dearest devotee of mine.

anadi
29 April 2011, 02:36 PM
Parinam happened to potency of Brahman ? not brahman itself.
dandavat,

The “substance” brahma is not modified, but out of it come the jiva sakti and maya sakti, in the same way as from the cintAmani gem many varieties of jewels can be produced, but the gem is not transformed or deformed itself in any way.
There is no modification of brahma; it remains in the same state as before.

Here it is an example of potential energy,
In the material world the potential energy means the energy that is hidden in a substance, but not manifested. For example a person on a platform situated “h” meters above the earth has a mechanical potential energy = m*g*h. If that person is pushed by someone’s “desire”, that energy becomes manifested, and is called kinetic energy.

In the same way by the desire of bhagavan, brahma may manifest all kinds of energies.
In my opinion, as long as the advaitins think that brahma has no qualities, is not possible to say that brahma has the quality of desire (… to create shaktis) and so on.

sa paryagāc chukram akāyam avraṇam
asnāviram śuddham apāpa-viddham
kavir manīṣī paribhūḥ svayambhūr
yāthātathyato 'rthān vyadadhāc chāśvatībhyaḥ samābhyaḥ
Śrī Īśopaniṣad 8

That person must know the omnipotent, omniscient philosophical person - saḥ paryagāt śukram kaviḥ manīṣī
Without material body (namely) without veins, beyond all material designations - akāyam asnāviram avraṇam
Pure, without any sin - śuddham apāpa viddham
the greatest of all, self sufficient - paribhūḥ svayambhūḥ
by whose desire is being given everything accordingly since time immemorial - arthān vyadadhāt yāthātathyataḥ samābhyaḥ śāśvatībhyaḥ

anadi
29 April 2011, 02:47 PM
again how is it different from Para-brahman then?

dandavat,

Although shakti and shaktiman are one, they are also different.
Bhagavan has His desires, and shakti is there to serve, or to do the work for the accomplishment of His desires; and shakti takes different forms according to different functions for the fulfillment of His desires.
Bhagavän inspires the cit-shakti, jiva-shakti and maya-shakti to be engaged in their respective activities.
In spite of creating the material world by His desire through His mAyA-zakti, the cit nature remains in eternal, unbroken existence.

In a simmlar way jivas think that they do the work (aham kara - I am the doer), but it is maya shakti, which serves them, according their desires
(here must be considered not only one's desire, but also the desires of others, which are linked by those desires with a particular bewildered jiva)

anirvan
30 April 2011, 12:40 AM
[QUOTE=anadi;64016]dandavat,
In the same way by the desire of bhagavan, brahma may manifest all kinds of energies.
In my opinion, as long as the advaitins think that brahma has no qualities, is not possible to say that brahma has the quality of desire (… to create shaktis) and so on.

Pranam, what you said in this post is exactly the same as per advita vedant.

Brahman is not quality less. Nirguana means all gunas merged inside. at time of mahapralay everything gets merged and brahman goes into mahanidra(mahavishnu sayan). at time of creation....the gunas re-emerge to form the creation. this process of creation happens in one part out of 4 parts. this one part then called saguana brahman.other three part remains nirguna stage.

this parinama-vad as you are saying is same as vivarta-vad. its only words.but meaning is same.they are same chintamani gem and same time jiva,maya shati.they never chenge permanently. this is called vivarta.

the play between light and shade.

anadi
30 April 2011, 12:41 AM
again where is the contradiction of eternal spiritual body,bhagaban and eternal servanthood of jeeva in the realm of advita vedanta???
dandavat,

The so called ortodox advaitins will not accept the same goal of their sadhana as a Vaishnava, even if they may seem to pray to the same Lord, they do it from differnt reasons.
Vaisnavas want to serve the Lord in the eternal spiritual world.
Adavaitins want to be one with brahma, and have no loving relation to any of the eternal forms of the Supreme Lord and His lilas.

They may read the same sastra, and take their own interpretation:


BG 10. 20
I, O Gudakesa (Arjuna), am the self seated in the hearts of all creatures.
I am the beginning, the middle and the very end of beings.

When Self is the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings then what are all these beings?
What the advaitin want to say here is that obviously there is only one soul, no two (not many) - advaita. And this one soul will merge after dissolution in brahma. (The advaitins don't understand that here Sri Krishna refers to his Parama-atma form in the heart of all living beings, and this can be seen quite obviously in the next verse.)
And their conclusion is that there is no eternal bhagavan, there are no eternal jivas, there is no eternal bhakti, all is one substance with no qualities - nirguna, and as such what we see doesn't exist. In my opinion definitely absurd.
These are some important misunderstandings of advaita.



Can Advaita philosophy and Vaishnava views be "merged"?
The 'merging' or combining of Advaita and Vaishnavism is not only a possibility but was a reality that was seen as the Bhakti movement spread to Northern India during the late medieval period

Sridhar Svamin the famous commentator of Bhagawat Purana was the perfect example of an Advaitin who had strong Vaishnava leanings... (Sri Krishna Caitanya accepted his commentaries and praised him - my comments.)

anirvan
30 April 2011, 12:51 AM
dandavat,

Although shakti and shaktiman are one, they are also different.
Bhagavan has His desires, and shakti is there to serve, or to do the work for the accomplishment of His desires; and shakti takes different forms according to different functions for the fulfillment of His desires.
Bhagavän inspires the cit-shakti, jiva-shakti and maya-shakti to be engaged in their respective activities.
In spite of creating the material world by His desire through His mAyA-zakti, the cit nature remains in eternal, unbroken existence.

In a simmlar way jivas think that they do the work (aham kara - I am the doer), but it is maya shakti, which serves them, according their desires
(here must be considered not only one's desire, but also the desires of others, which are linked by those desires with a particular bewildered jiva)

CIT REMAINS in ETERNAL.unbroken existence.

100% correct.Bhagban does everything through maya shakti ,cit shakti,but still remains un-engaged ,pure.

Does advitin says different from above statement? absolutely no.

You are saying Maya shakti as existential satta. mayavadi says this maya shakti as non-existential,illusion. this is only difference.but you should understand why they call it so?

because they think this maya shakti is also same as brahman,not different. so why admit a separate existance.so they call it illusion.

My Gurudev"s word,the proper term will be vivarta. because same potency hence same parambrahman is becoming Mayashakti for creation,and same time existing as un-engaged,bhagabat satta. its like electro-magnetic waves flactuating between nagative and positive waves,but we cant determine which state is correct and eternal.

anirvan
30 April 2011, 01:11 AM
dandavat,



They may read the same sastra, and take their own interpretation:
What the advaitin want to say here is that obviously there is only one soul, no two (not many) - advaita. And this one soul will merge after dissolution in brahma. (The advaitins don't understand that here Sri Krishna refers to his Parama-atma form in the heart of all living beings, and this can be seen quite obviously in the next verse.)
And their conclusion is that there is no eternal bhagavan, there are no eternal jivas, there is no eternal bhakti, all is one substance with no qualities - nirguna, and as such what we see doesn't exist. In my opinion definitely absurd.
These are some important misunderstandings of advaita.

You misunderstood the advitin. i already told you Nirguna doesn"t means no quality.it means all qualities merged.

its true that there is one soul.if you aim for mokhsa,then there is one soul.if you aim for leela,there eternity of souls and again multiple souls.

Anjan-tamer nam kahiye kaitab!
dharma artha mokhsa vancha ei adi sab!!
tar madhye mokhsa vancha kaitab pradhan!
jaha haite krishnabhakti hay anterdhan!!

This is quote of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu from chaitanyacharitamrita.
he clearly says that dharma,artha,kama,mokhsa are lower form of purusartha and termed them KAITABA. and the mokhsa is the one if arise in one"s heart,he will never know Krishnabhakti. so how can he acknowledge the BHAGABAN SWAROOP. he will merge into nirguna brahman.

anadi
30 April 2011, 11:13 AM
dandavat,

vaishnav say they want to eat sweet,dont want to become sweet. but my gurudev says....its very wrong comparision since they dont know grapes,so say grape is sour
1. I don’t know which vaishnava personalities, in knowledge of rasa tattva, said that they want to eat sweet, and they don't want to become sweet. Can you please give some examples.

2. Which sweet grapes, known by your gurudev, and not known by the vaishnavas, are being spoken here?

anirvan
01 May 2011, 12:25 AM
1. I don’t know which vaishnava personalities, in knowledge of rasa tattva, said that they want to eat sweet, and they don't want to become sweet. Can you please give some examples.

2. Which sweet grapes, known by your gurudev, and not known by the vaishnavas, are being spoken here?

It a common argument given by vaishnavites, even you had given such indications.that Brahma-nirvana is qualiteless, those wishing for moskha vanishes in brahman.i can"t remember any particular name as i never go into details of such personalities.they ignorantly says that brahmananda is jada state.they want to enjoy the personal form of brahman,dont want to be brahman.its because they are greedy,stupid fellows who are selfish for own.they can never realize Gopi bhava.gopi bhava is sakhsi bhava.if one is such greedy who fear nirvan,thinking it like extinguishing,how can he deserved to be in Gopi bhava which demands more sacrifice that extinguished.

In your second question,i have given the metaphor to explain the state of Nityaswaroop-ananda or brahmananda.the state of nirguna brahman in akhanda nirvikalpa samadhi..which creates havoc among ignorant ameture self proclaimed Vaishnavas whose knowledge is limited to bookish translation of so called vaishnav guru ,fearing that it will wipe out their krishna seva.so funny.

I hope you are not thinking like so called ameture vaishnavas. i have explained everything for your understanding in all above posts so clearly. if you are debating for a debate"s shake and with mind of such fundamentalist ignorant vaishnavas who dreams to defeat Adi-Shankar with knowledge,then i am sorry and can wish with Sri-Krishna thet he will give you prajna to understand him.

Haribol.

anadi
01 May 2011, 03:27 AM
It a common argument given by vaishnavites, even you had given such indications.that Brahma-nirvana is qualiteless,
dandavat,
As you have probably seen, I don’t have the time to read or comment all that you have written. Usually I have to take every sentence and analyze it, and this may take some time. Please be patient.
I think, you misunderstood, what I have written. Here it is the passage which refers to the thinking of advaitins not vaishnavas.


And their conclusion is that there is no eternal bhagavan, there are no eternal jivas, there is no eternal bhakti, all is one substance with no qualities - nirguna, and as such what we see doesn't exist. In my opinion definitely absurd.

As above written, in my opinion there were the advaitins who say the Brahman would possess no gunas, which would be definitely absurd. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas understand the verses of the Vedas where brahma is described as being nirguna, as being without material qualities, i.e. transcendental. It is that simple, no need of sophisticated word play, and the need to introduce the advaitin concept of “saguna brahma - brahma with qualities of relative world”, which, as much as I know, cannot be found in the Vedas.

Examples from what I knew about Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta upholding the idea of brahma without qualities:


For the Advaita Vedanta of Shankara, Brahman is the nondual primordial awareness
that is Absolute or Ultimate Consciousness Being Itself, “One, without a second,”
without limit, empty of all predicates, attributes and qualities,
beyond concept and belief, or any subject-object dualism whatsoever.

As we have seen, Shankara refers to this prior unity as Nirguna Brahman, the Absolute.
Satchitananda however, is usually understood as Saguna Brahman, Brahman with relative qualities,
the Great Love that is being (sat), consciousness (chit) and bliss (ananda).


For Shankara then, Nirguna Brahman is the non-experiential, non-conceptual, uncreated nondual Base ....

Moksha liberation is the transcendental consciousness of turiya, the nondual “fourth state” (after waking, dreaming and deep sleep states) that is the prior primordial unity of Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman

As you can see in moksha, which is the highest state of the advaitins there is no eternal bhagavan, there are no eternal jivas, there is no eternal bhakti, all is one substance with no qualities – nirguna.

The advaita-vada is invariably linked with Buddhism, even your expression brahma (advaita)- nirvana (buddhism) is a prove for this.



Advaita Vedanta and Mahayana Buddhism

… Yet, from the innermost secret nondual view of Shankara’s Advaita Vedanta there is no contradiction in the Atman-Self doctrine and the Buddhist doctrine of anatman or no-self, for when the neti, neti (not this, not this) vichara (consideration) is carried to its ultimate conclusion, the ostensibly permanent and eternal incarnating-Self that is Brahman of the Upanishads,is ontologically identical to the “emptiness of self”(anatman) of the Madhyamaka Prasangika (Rangtong), the great centrist view of Mahayana Buddhism. That is, the Atman-Self is not, at its nondual root, an absolute, eternal, permanently existent substrate or self-entity at all, for it is identical to Nirguna Brahman which is “empty of all qualities and attributes,” including the attribute of self-existence.

The Emptiness of Emptiness.
Do the absolutes of shunyata/emptiness and Nirguna Brahman actually exist? Are they real? Are they existing entities? Yes and no.They do exist conventionally, nominally, conceptually. But they cannot be found under ultimate contemplative analysis, as Absolute Truth. They exist as “relative valid cognition” (shadma), but not as “ultimate valid cognition” (pramana). Thus they have no ultimate, permanent essence no essential self-nature. Therefore, the Buddhist criticism targets only the outer exoteric, theistic, dualistic Hindu view of Brahman, and not the more subtle nondual view of Advaita Vedanta.
The Buddhist Middle Way Consequence School (Madhyamaka Prasangika) refers to this truth of emptiness as the “emptiness of emptiness.” Vedantists speak of nondual Brahman as “empty of all qualities and attributes .”

Thus Shunyata and Nirguna Brahman share the same nondual ontological status.
“Truth is One, many are its names” (Rig Veda)

All quotes given from discourses on Shankara's Advaita Vedanta (http://davidpaulboaz.org/Stromata/Shankara.pdf)

I have now come to know that nowadays appeared such advaitins, that take the vaishnava view of simultaneous dvaita-advaita, (bheda abheda of Sri Caitanya) which they still want to label it as original advaita of Shakaracarya.

anirvan
01 May 2011, 08:04 AM
dandavat,

I have now come to know that nowadays appeared such advaitins, that take the vaishnava view of simultaneous dvaita-advaita, (bheda abheda of Sri Caitanya) which they still want to label it as original advaita of Shakaracarya.

Dandavat,

Advita tattva is etarnal sanatan truth.if shankaracharya described it in someway,it doesn"t BRAND the advita jnana as Shankaracharya"s brand of Advita. does it matters if one say himself advitin or dvaita-advita-achintya-bheda-bheda or so on.Tattva-darshi acharyas never brand themselves ,they speak truth.if ignorant peoples whose base of knowledge is shastra says this is this brand.dvaita,advita,bisistadvita,sudhadvaita blah blah....if one"s teaching hates knowledge,how can they even know truth.only love/bhakti leads to confusion.they may hallucinate something and started preaching themselves as manjari/sakhi.

Advita is ultimate truth.the founding base.achintya-bheda-bheda may be called crowning glory.but still its advita.
you can see how just few words can create huge misunderstanding.this is the reason Shankaracharya is mostly misunderstood. how a so called vaishnav with bookish knowledge without nirvikalpa jnana can even thing of speculative AdiShankar ???

In Ramakrishna-paramhansa"s word---tightly knot the advita in your saree,and then whatever you want to do,you do.

And second thing,you have given all above discourses saying Shankaracharya"s vedanta. but can anybody who has not achieved the status of him in APORAKSHA ANUBHUTI can say what exactly he mean while said so many things. anybody can fly thousands of meanings by distorting,mixing,matching of him. Does anyone who had understood Shanka in toto. absolutely no. have anybody analysed his bhakti-writings.

Have anybody can really explain his famous writing about Guru...that
Avitam trishu lokeshu,na dvaitam guruna saha"


does this single sentence proves his supreme bhava,and the prove that he very well knew bhava-loka/golok.
BECAUSE HIS ISTHA WAS HIS GURU .A vedantic sannyasi rarely have samskar of Idol Worshiping.their Istha is mostly Guru.and they see Golak as the adhisthan of the supreme Guru.
is it necessary that a person will be called vaishnava if he worship vishnu?definitely this is funny.A true vaishnav is one who already knew Divine,and now associated with divine in loving relationship.

Again i have told that Purna jnani is he who has seen both truth of param-brahman.that is NITYA and LEELA. one with single knowledge is incomplete .

In jnana we can know him,In Bhakti we can enjoy with him.there are two eternal truth.then only one can be liberal,broad lover.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=7488 post 5.

anadi
02 May 2011, 09:15 AM
Dandavat,

Advita tattva is etarnal sanatan truth.if shankaracharya described it in someway,it doesn"t BRAND the advita jnana as Shankaracharya"s brand of Advita.

dandavat,

most obviously you don't like advaita vedanta of Shankaracarya, from which I presented some ideas in my previous post.
You have your guru's ideas of advaita-vedanta.

Have you asked yourself, where these ideas truly come?
Are these ideas true advaita ideas, or they apeared later as a mixture of advaita and dvaita, as the Vaishanva awareness grew larger and larger?

If these ideas that you label as "Advita tattva" are "etarnal sanatan truth", than you may find evidence for them in the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas and so on.
Please make a presentation of advaita tattva as presented in the Vedas, where your ideas presented herein as advaita-tattva, can be found.

Gaura premanande

anirvan
03 May 2011, 02:52 AM
Dandavat pranam,

Yeah,i have understood my Advita concepts from my Guru. And he has realized his advita not from any book sources,but via chatur-varga sadhna. step by step. when he got the boon from Mahavidya Tara in Saba sadhana that she will appear in the form of his deceased wife,he observed that Tara is coming out of his own body as light vapour and taking a form.then quest begins who am I? Maha tantrika Guru Bamakhsepa asked to take vaidik sannyasa.

In Vedic sannyasa,he learned under paramahansa sachidananda of puskar khetra and indirect jnana of advita.Guru adviced to see these advita tattva in samadhi.

Then he learnt Yoga sadhna fro maha-yogi Sumeru(kuthumilal-the founder of Theosophical society and current chair of himalayan Rishi sangha along with Rishyasringha).
In yoge he attained Asampranjata samadhi where tattva jnana of a single brahmanda(one universe and deha-bhanda) is seen.realized in samadhi.

Then he went in to Nirvikalpa samadhi OF vedanta where tattva of entire saguna and nirguna brahman seen and realized. after which he established in GURu-ahom.He was not believing in Leela,deva-devi.Maa Annapurna one day came to him and asked that your knowledge is in-complete.Brahman"s two form are eternal and true.
Just like his nirguna-nirakar swaroop is true,his Divine Leela is also true.

Then he did bhava sadhna under mahabhava swaroopini Gaurimaa and realised the Leela tattva of bhagban.but his Anuga was he himself ----the Guru.

He has clearly written in his book "JNANIGURU" that whatever i have written is my own vision and i have given references from shastras for peoples who dont want to believe anything with shastras quote and i quoted these not from any books but through yoga-vision i collected those quotes appropriate for a references.if you could get a english version,you can get everything.if you wish,i can help you sending one.

I have very clearly explianed the advita of my Gurudev in following posts recently.please go through it minutely and you can understand properly.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=64267#post64267

post no-- 3,5,7,8,10.

one more link is post no 26,27,28,30
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=7151&page=3

Jayaguru

anadi
03 May 2011, 06:38 AM
Dandavat pranam,

Yeah,i have understood my Advita concepts from my Guru. And he has realized his advita not from any book sources,but via chatur-varga sadhna. step by step.

dandvat,
can you please describe "chatur-varga sadhna. step by step."?

anirvan
04 May 2011, 01:08 AM
See its not any particular sadhna, you may had mistake in understanding as its a bengali/oriya term.chatuh means 4. he happened to had to undergo 4 major discipline of sanatan dharma : jnana,tantra,yoga,bhakti.

After initial tantra sadhna(chita/saba sadhna...a kind of vira sadhna) he got whatever needed to achieve ultimate in spiritual practice.as he could have asked mokhsa,bhakti or anything to divine mother.but his samskar prevented him .

Whenever he underwent a particular discipline,he was totally cut-off from previous sadhna.later his jnaniguru Sachidananda paramhansa explained him that since it was divine wish for him to be universal guru and the very divine purpose of new Rasa....he had to underwent so much rigor.that new rasa was unique and first time in spiritual history.that he worshiped Divine bhagavan as wife.


jayaguru

anadi
06 May 2011, 12:33 PM
In Vedic sannyasa,he learned under paramahansa sachidananda of puskar khetra and indirect jnana of advita.Guru adviced to see these advita tattva in samadhi.
dandavat,
1. can you please bring some evidence about about the Teachings of advaita vedanta according to "paramahansa sachidananda of puskar khetra";
2. And also about the revelation in samadhi of these Teachings of advaita vedanta experienced by your guru,
that may testify your stories about the source of your knowledge of advaita vedanta?

anadi
08 May 2011, 02:17 AM
vaishnav say they want to eat sweet, dont want to become sweet. but my gurudev says....

In my opinion, this information that the vaishnavas don't want to become sweet is wrong.
As I previously asked you about this issue, you couldn't give any refference about any Vaishnavas,
or Vaishnava-siddhanta, that would say that, or more in this connection, ....you may have heard it from your gurudev,
whom you use as evidence, which also cannot be accepted, as almost everyone folows some gurus,
and they have argumentative issues based on what they heard from their gurus, which they usually present as sat-guru.
So, the best evidence is the Vedas, because is apauruseya, and recognised in all sampradaya. (By the way sampradaya, which one belongs your gurudev?)

The Gaudiya Vaishnavas want to be sweet, because they want to be gopis or gopas, (which are extremely sweet bodies) with Krishna,
and all that is with Krishna, and all His deeds are sweet. This was very nice expressed by the famous Srimad Vallabhacarya in his song Madhur-astakam.

Here are some samples:


karanam madhuram taranam madhuram
haranam madhuram ramanam madhuram
vamitam madhuram samitam madhuram
madhuradhi-pater akhilam madhuram


His deeds are sweet, His acts of deliverance are sweet, His stealing is sweet, His
amorous play is sweet, His yawning is sweet, and even His chastisements are sweet
– everything is sweet about the original Lord of Sweetness.


gopi madhura lila madhura
yuktam madhuram bhuktam madhuram
hrstam madhuram slistam madhuram
madhuradhi-pater akhilam madhuram


His gopis are sweet, His pastimes (with the gopis and gopas) are sweet, His paraphernalia and ornaments are
sweet, His food is sweet, His delight is sweet, His embrace is sweet
– everything is sweet about the original Lord of Sweetness.


gopa madhura gavo madhura
yastir madhura srstir madhura
dalitam madhuram phalitam madhuram
madhuradhi-pater akhilam madhuram

His gopas are sweet, His cows are sweet, His staff is sweet, His creation is sweet, His

defeating of demons is sweet, and His bestowal of fruits is sweet
– everything is sweet about the original Lord of Sweetness.

anirvan
10 May 2011, 03:26 AM
[
QUOTE=anadi;64432]dandavat,
1. can you please bring some evidence about about the Teachings of advaita vedanta according to "paramahansa sachidananda of puskar khetra";
2. And also about the revelation in samadhi of these Teachings of advaita vedanta experienced by your guru,


Dandavat,

I am giving a link which give you few answers you have asked for.i will present you the english translation of the experience of nirvikalpa of my gurudev as its in bengali and i dont have any english books on hand.
he and his gur Sachidananda belongs to SRUNGHERI MATH with Saraswati nama sannyasi sect.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sohamsa/message/22935

anadi
12 May 2011, 12:45 AM
Dandavat,

As I asked you,

“Can you please bring some evidence about the Teachings of advaita vedanta according to "paramahansa sachidananda of puskar khetra?"

You posted a link, where it is stated, that paramahansa sachidananda of puskar khetra taught your gurudeva advaita Vedanta of Sankaracarya, which is not the so called advaita, that you present here as the teaching of your gurudeva, teachings presented in the form of a vaishnava dvaita-advaita (both advaita and dvaita), that you want to name it advaita

“After a long and tedious travelling from place to place he finally met and chose Swami Satchidananda Saraswati of Pushkar in Rajasthan as his new Master. Swamiji (honorific title) initiated Nalinikanta intoVaidantik based on the rules of Vedanta) Samnyas order and renamed him as Swami Nigamananda Saraswati. Under the guidance of the new Master he studied and deliberated on the Vedanta (literally the terminal portion of the Vedas: the system of Indian philosophy that deals with spiritual knowledge as a means of liberation) philosophy of the monistic school due to the great Sankaracharya.”

And as I previously shown Sankaracharya came to enhance the atheistic, nihilistic views of Kali-yuga

Siva says to Parvati
vedArthavan mahAzAstram mAyAvadam avaidikam mayA eva
kathitam devi jagatAM nAzakAranAt

The theory of illusion is not vedic (not sanatham dharma) - mAyAvadam (or vivarta vada of the advaitins) avaidikam
though taking its meaning from the great Vedic scriptures - arthavan mahAzAstram veda
Oh, goddess, I certainly told (this theory), which is the root of the destruction of the univers - devi mayA eva kathitam nAza kAranAt jagatAM

anirvan
12 May 2011, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=anadi
FONT=Arial]Siva says to Parvati [/FONT]
vedArthavan mahAzAstram mAyAvadam avaidikam mayA eva
kathitam devi jagatAM nAzakAranAt


From which tantra or saiva text it is written? Adishankar"s mayavad is 6th century things,but when Parvati says above stuff to Siva?

I dont have the exact ideas about what was exact teaching of Sachidananda of Pushkar right now,as i read it long long back,may be 7-8yrs.But definitely My Gurudev"s sannyasa diksha maha vakya was"AHAM BRAHMASMI" the highest of 4 mahavakyas of vedanta and it was because he was highest order Adhikari according to his Guru.

And his nirvikalpa was based upon meditation upon this mahavakya.and he assimilated into that swaroop and came back with aham of Guru.

But after his rejection of Leela jagat was broken by Annapurna maa of Kashi and later bhava sadhna he got the complete knowledge and then said the highest bhava is Achintya bhedabheda tattva.still he calls it Advita as advita is primary,top of it same advita has again taken bhava roopa for leela.

Just think rationally.if Advita is taken primary,then advita can become dviata-advita,but if Dvita is taken primary,can it be dvita-advita?

He always said CHIT(consciousness-synonymous with knowledge) and above the CHIT only Ananda(leela) can be sustained.

Chit is srikrishna,and Ananda is Radha,gopis and all bhaktas.and the bhava leela of goloka is between chit and ananda,so its atma-raman of brahman.
Advita becomes many and appears as Daivta for leela and simultaneously he is advita as well as daivta,

LIKE RADHA SOMETIMES BECOMING KRISHNA AND KRISHNA BECOMING RADHA,AND THIS IS ACHINTYABHEDABHEDA.and this is also called Brahma-vivarta vilasha.

jayaguru

anadi
15 May 2011, 02:13 AM
From which tantra or saiva text it is written? Adishankar"s mayavad is 6th century things,but when Parvati says above stuff to Siva?

Dandavat,
Is not Parvati that talks to Siva, but Siva talks to Parvati.
From Padma Puran you may learn that Siva announced that he will come as Sankaracarya.

This is from Padma Purana 25/7, where Siva advent Himself as Sankaracarya, saying further to Parvati,

mAyAvadam asac-chAstraM pracchannaM bauddham ucyate
mayaiva vihitaM devi kalau brAhmaNa mUrtiNA

The theory of illusion is a false scripture– mAyavAdam asacchAstram ,
and is known as disguised Buddhism - – ucyate pracchanannaM bauddham.
O devi in kali yuga I will take the form of a brAhmaNa - devi kalau brAhmaNa-mUrtinA
to teach that by Myself - mayaiva vihitaM


Also in Padma PurANa 42/110 Sri Vishnu says to Siva,

svagamAyAiH kalpitais tvam ca janAn mad vimukhAn kuru
maM ca gopAya yena syAt sRSti eSottarottara

devise your own scripture - kalpitais tvam svagamAyAiH
by which the people will be averse to Me –ca janAn kuru vimukhAn mad
and by this I will be covered – ca yena maM gopAya
in this way the material advancement will grow stronger and stronger - syAt sRSti eSottarottara

anadi
15 May 2011, 02:25 AM
I dont have the exact ideas about what was exact teaching of Sachidananda of Pushkar right now,as i read it long long back,may be 7-8yrs.

dandavat,
I want to give you some feed-back. You should make statements, that you can back up with arguments.

In this case you stated that your gurudev was learned advaita Vedanta from Sachidananda of Pushkar, but you don’t know (anymore) what kind of teachings they were.

You had no arguments, as long as Sachidananda of Pushkar was proved a follower of Sankaracarya Mayavada teachings,
which is obviously against the acintya bheda-abheda of Sri Caitanya dev, which you present as the teachings of your gurudev …

with the difference that your gurudeva claims, against the teachings of the gaudiya vaishva school, that one may identify oneself during his raganuga sadahan bhakti (which aims of going in Goloka-Vrindavan) with the Lord or His associates.

anadi
15 May 2011, 04:41 AM
But definitely My Gurudev"s sannyasa diksha maha vakya was"AHAM BRAHMASMI" the highest of 4 mahavakyas of vedanta and it was because he was highest order Adhikari according to his Guru.

dandavat.

As much as I know, this is the mantra initiation of the advaitins, which would make your gurudev a follower of Sankar-acaryas teachings,
which he obviously rejected and as such this AHAM BRAHMASMI is not the highest truth.
For the gaudiya vaishnavas far beyond this truth is the statement of Sri Caitanyadev,

nAhaM vipro na ca nara-patir nApi vaizyo na zUdro
nAhaM varNI na ca gRha-patir no vana-stho yatir vA
kintu prodyan nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher
gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH

(PadyAvalI 63)

“I am not a brahmana, a ksatriya or a vaisya, nor am I a sudra.
I am not among the varnas, not a grihastha, not a vanaprastha nor a sannyasi either.
But I am the servant of the servants of the lotus feet
of Him who is the Lord of the cowherd maidens,
and a paramount nectarine ocean of brilliant universal bliss!”


That is, being in a loving relation with the sweet Lord Krishna, love which impels one to serve – bhaktya – as an expression of that love -
is far beyond higher than the realization “I am spiritual - AHAM BRAHMASMI”.

anadi
15 May 2011, 05:01 AM
And his nirvikalpa was based upon meditation upon this mahavakya.and he assimilated into that swaroop and came back with aham of Guru.

dandavat,

According the descriptions of nirvikalpa realization
there is no sva-rupa (swaroop) in nirvikalpa or Brahman realization;
there is nothing … except … light, there is no form – no svarupa there;
there is no conception of aham in nirvikalpa realization except that one is spiritual - brahman,
is hard to claim that one comes with the conception of being guru - “aham of Guru” from Brahman – the undifferentiated state – ekatvam

Rather your gurudev had a glimpse of Brahaman, and he had the old sickness of many people
to present himself as a spiritual teacher – guru – long before he got that Brahman realization.
It was his desire, most probably for a long time, to act from the "highly respected position" of a guru,
and that glimpse of Brahman should help him to fulfill his desire of being a guru.

anadi
15 May 2011, 05:39 AM
But after his rejection of Leela jagat was broken by Annapurna maa of Kashi ...
dandavat,

Can you please explain
1. what “Leela jagat” did your gurudev reject - his own lila in the material world?
2. What was broken by Annapurna maa of Kashi, was it "Leela jagat"?
3. Did your gurudev worship Parvati devi in the form of Annapurna, so that She appeared in that form to him?
4. Is there any evidence for his worship of Her (in that form),
otherwise there seem to be no reason for Parvati to appear to your gurudev in the form of Annapurna
(please see the reason of Her appearance as Annapurna under http://www.boloji.net/hinduism/153.htm.)

anadi
15 May 2011, 12:13 PM
… by … bhava sadhna he got the complete knowledge and then said the highest bhava is Achintya bhedabheda tattva.
dandavat,

from your statement I can understand that you also agree that the realization "aham brahmasmi" cannot be considered the highest of maha-vakyas.

5. Was this bhava sadhana revealed to him by Parvati in the form of Annapurna and why did she do that?
6. Can you please give the main steps of this sadhana according to your gurudeva ?

Acintya bheda-abheda is not a bhava (loving mood), but a tattva (philosophical principle), delineated by Sri Caitanyadev.
A bhava is not a tattva, although according to a specific tattva one may follow a specific sadhana to attain a specific bhava.

The Gaudiya Vaishnavas accept the definition of bhava as given by Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu 1.3.1

śuddha-sattva-viśeṣātmā / prema-suryāḿśu-sāmyabhāk
rucibhiś citta-māsṛṇya kṛd asau bhāva ucyate

As the soul attains a specific state of pure goodness (specific loving relation with the Lord) - atmā viśeṣa śuddha-sattva
the rays of the divine love manifest - prema-suryāḿśu sāmyabhāk
and as one’s consciuousness is melted –citta māsṛṇya
by a blend of divine tastes – rucibhiś,
it is said that one attains Bhava - kṛd asau bhāva ucyate


Bhava is in this connection the state of manifestation of the first rays of divine love in a specific rasa, as it turns into stayi-bhava (dominant loving mood).

anadi
15 May 2011, 01:28 PM
fehler

anirvan
16 May 2011, 08:34 AM
dandavat,
I want to give you some feed-back. You should make statements, that you can back up with arguments.
You had no arguments, as long as Sachidananda of Pushkar was proved a follower of Sankaracarya Mayavada teachings,
which is obviously against the acintya bheda-abheda of Sri Caitanya dev, which you present as the teachings of your gurudev …

See I am not into any sort of sastrartha/debate or want to prove anything to anybode.I am a busy practicing profession who believes in realizing truth by sadhna,not what chaitanya mahaprabhu or Prabhupada says or wrote.I Believe in knowing truth of Chaitanya mahaprabhu by directly asking him in prayer.and I know he has explained me with his blessings.I just hoped to help you understanding the real meaning of Advita and its just same and one with Achintyabhedabheda.if your mind and rational thinking is blocked by previous studies,its not my fault,neither I can able to prove by sastra.For me,even if Srikrishna,chaitanya,shankara ,vyasa comes to explain something contrary to my gurudev,i will simply say......excuse and wait outside.


with the difference that your gurudeva claims, against the teachings of the gaudiya vaishva school, that one may identify oneself during his raganuga sadahan bhakti (which aims of going in Goloka-Vrindavan) with the Lord or His associates.


the difference is in your understanding,not in facts.

anirvan
16 May 2011, 09:58 AM
dandavat.

As much as I know, this is the mantra initiation of the advaitins, which would make your gurudev a follower of Sankar-acaryas teachings,
which he obviously rejected and as such this AHAM BRAHMASMI is not the highest truth.
But I am the servant of the servants of the lotus feet
of Him who is the Lord of the cowherd maidens,
is far beyond higher than the realization “I am spiritual - AHAM BRAHMASMI”.

seven parts of Ramayan finished ,and your conclusion is that Sita is a female?;)

What can i say than pity myself?
SO YOU WANT TO SAY SERVANT IS SUPERIOR TO MASTER???
THIS IS ADHIKARATVA,AS YOU ARE A ADHIKARI,SO YOU WILL LIKE.
sudra will behave like sudra,khsatriya will behave like khsatriya.siva swaroop will be siva,dasa swaroop will be dasa.

Mahavakya is not any sort of mantra,its ultimate vedanta truth,the final vedanta conclusion of one"s soul.you have to do sravan,manan,nididhyasan on your swaroop as given by param guru.

anirvan
16 May 2011, 10:15 AM
dandavat,

According the descriptions of nirvikalpa realization
there is no sva-rupa (swaroop) in nirvikalpa or Brahman realization;
there is nothing … except … light, there is no form – no svarupa there;
there is no conception of aham in nirvikalpa realization except that one is spiritual - brahman,
is hard to claim that one comes with the conception of being guru - “aham of Guru” from Brahman – the undifferentiated state – ekatvam

what a ignorant meaning of nirvikalpa? who told there is no aham? so brahman has no aham?is he innert or dead or what?

What does it means Sat? It means I am there,eternally. then who is this "I"?
He IS bRAHMAN, and the central most consciousness is Guru-brahman.the nirguna state of Jagatguru.when one attains nirvikalpa,he became one with nirguna brahman where only self.aham is there.Drasta and drishya are one and that one is aham of brahman.

Rarely among most samadhivan sadhu,a few has attained nirvikalpa.and Guru-aham is rarest and once only happened in the kalpa to my knowledge.and when this nirguna jagatguru descends to earth for humankind"s liberation,he comes into the sadhaka"s subtle body.but the self of sadhaka is totally anhiliated and inside is parambrahma rupi guru-srikrishna.



Rather your gurudev had a glimpse of Brahaman, and he had the old sickness of many people
to present himself as a spiritual teacher – guru – long before he got that Brahman realization.
It was his desire, most probably for a long time, to act from the "highly respected position" of a guru,
and that glimpse of Brahman should help him to fulfill his desire of being a guru.

so you are talking like vyasa,the guru of guru.if you have any sense of Nirvikalpa or brahman darshan,then you will never say such silly words.Nirvikalpa is a state where there is no vikalpa,sankalpa or anything.its total anihlition of old self.
and again by the time he attained nirvikalpa.he was 21 yr old only ,who left his house at age of 18yr after his wife died and his sadhna started to get back his wife from mrityulok.so even he had never talked anybody till samadhi.

anirvan
16 May 2011, 10:31 AM
1. what “Leela jagat” did your gurudev reject - his own lila in the material world?

when he was in brahman-consciousness state,he was not believing the leela jagat of vaishnavites,the devata,devas,personal form of any god.


2. What was broken by Annapurna maa of Kashi, was it "Leela jagat"?

Maa Annapurna broke his concept of rejection of above leela jagat.and she said you have seen brahman state ,but lacking the vision of leela jagat which is another truth of same brahman.


3. Did your gurudev worship Parvati devi in the form of Annapurna, so that She appeared in that form to him?
4. Is there any evidence for his worship of Her (in that form),

In his supreme brahman conscious state,he visited kashi,and heard that no guest to kashi of Annapoorna remains hungry on first day.he laughed at it and thought lets see how Annapurna will feed me today,as he has no belief of such goddes Annapoorna...as all are brahman.

And while sitting at Ganga, a old frail lady came to take holy bath.she came to Nigamananda and asked to keep a packet bundled with cloth so that she can have a bath and will take back from him.but she never returned.then night falls,and my gurudev slept in yoganidra.at midnight he wake up to see that the packet is still there.he felt hungry,opened it and saw hot,fresh sitabhoga of maa annapoorna.he ate and slept.then that Old lady came and asked him"have you taken food or still hungry as in my kashi,no guest remains hungry.then the old lady took her bhava-roopa(swaroop) of Annapoorna and said to him that your realization is still incomplete.you one part truth of brahman,another part is still hidden.go and do bhava sadhna to know his leela part.

He never worshipped Annapoorna,he worshipped only mahavidya tara during tantra siddhi.

anirvan
16 May 2011, 11:57 AM
dandavat,
[QUOTE]
from your statement I can understand that you also agree that the realization "aham brahmasmi" cannot be considered the highest of maha-vakyas.


Mahavakya is different from bhava.mahavakya is ultimate vedantik siddhanta,the truth.and bhava is a leela which is theatered upon the truth.so mahavakya is not compareble to bhavas.


5. Was this bhava sadhana revealed to him by Parvati in the form of Annapurna and why did she do that?

No Annapoorna just idicated to do bhava sadhna,and then he went to Gaurimaa of himalaya who also previously asked him to come to her if he attains nirvikalpa samadhi.

and she is bhava-siddha,in the swaroop of Radha and she taught him bhava just like Radha is Prema guru of srikrishna.


Acintya bheda-abheda is not a bhava (loving mood), but a tattva (philosophical principle), delineated by Sri Caitanyadev.


Exactly...since you accepts Achintya bhedabheda as tattva,why then not able to conceive the fact that Srikrishna is also a tattva,not a person? Radha,gopis all are tattva.and these tattva are Vivarta vilasha again ,but highest order.

and this is again Advita tattva which manifests as achintya tattva.from begining of this thread i just told this thing that sakhis,manjari,krishna all are spiritual bodies,that means tattva which are in origin one brahman and hence advita.

anirvan
21 May 2011, 02:27 AM
[QUOTE=anadi;64877]dandavat,
5. Was this bhava sadhana revealed to him by Parvati in the form of Annapurna and why did she do that?
6. Can you please give the main steps of this sadhana according to your gurudeva ?


The answer to-Why she did this thing -lies in his previous birth sadhna as i have told. as Mahakaula sadhaka Brahmananda Giri,he was doing mahasadhna to conquer mahashakti and make her his wife-mistress. after several dangerous attempt by mahashakti to destroy his sadhna,finally he conquered and got the boon.when he asked her to be his wife in human body,she refused to be so,stating that She is Wife of Shiva and Sati.if he can attain siva-swaroop...that is brahman swaroop,then only his wish will be fulfilled and this will be in next birth.

In that birth he married a kaibarta girl who was Parvati in disguise and then died with broken heart of unfulfilled sadhna.

And next birth again As Nalinikanta,he married to Maa Sudhansubala who again happened to be mahashakti and she left her body to make Nalinikanta believe in After death by showing her subtle body and guided in different form to attain PARAMBRAHMAN SWAROOP as It is basic necessary to plunge into Real Bhava sadhna.

And this is the purpose behind the arrival of same Mahashakti in her different Forms throught his life step wise.

IT WAS A DIVINE WISH,ESSENTIAL DIVINE REQUIREMENT FOR THE ONLY BHAVA OF BHAGAVAN NOT PLAYED OUT ON EARTH TILL NOW THAT HE ALSO PLAY THE BHAVA OF WIFE.

The steps were simple.Bhavasiddha Gaurimaa made the Bhavaloka in deepest jungle at himalaya where she asked Niagamananda to think of bhagvan as per his wishes and and he started bhagvan as his beloved wife(in bhava sarira) in each and every particle of universe.

Sometimes he thinks him as a female and crying and begging the love at the feet of bhagvan,sometimes he is nirguna-nishala jagatgurubrahman and bhagvan is serving him as female.this state stayed for nearly 1yr and it was not possible to stay in populous place as it was embarrasing to loose consciousness,sometimes defecate,urinate in bhava,crying like mad.

So he undergone severe tapasya to control the bhava again.

He was very much reluctant to come to human society and wanted to leave his body,but its continuous insistence of Bhagvan,he has to come back as Guru for jiboddhaar.

Even later stage as guru,Bhagvan always stayed as his wife in every steps of his work and many devotee happened to have seen god"s female form sometimes sleeping at side of gurudev,sometimes doing seva,talikng.

anadi
21 May 2011, 02:56 AM
dandavat,
I want to give you some feed-back. You should make statements, that you can back up with arguments.
In this case you stated that your gurudev was learned advaita Vedanta from Sachidananda of Pushkar, but you don’t know (anymore) what kind of teachings they were.
You had no arguments, as long as Sachidananda of Pushkar was proved a follower of Sankaracarya Mayavada teachings, which is obviously against the acintya bheda-abheda of Sri Caitanya dev, which you present as the teachings of your gurudev …
See I am not into any sort of sastrartha/debate or want to prove anything to anybode
Dandavat,
It is most possible that you learned, you shouldn’t debate,
but you debate: you quote me, you make opposite statements, and present arguments taken from your guru and books you read about your guru. If you look at what you have written you can acknowledge that you try hard to prove your advaita to me.

You even use Vedanta of Sankaracarya as sastra in your arguments, although you say, you don’t debate with sastra:
Example:
"Mahavakya is not any sort of mantra,its ultimate vedanta truth,the final vedanta (of Sankaracarya which is a false sastra, as seen from Padma Puran, or you mean other Vedanta?) ...

One of the rules of taking feed-back is not to start to defend yourself, as you did. In your defense you said,
"I am a busy practicing profession who believes in realizing truth by sadhna"
This argument of yours has nothing to do with my feed-back. You may do your sadhana, and still bring evidence for your statements, namely
- your guru got his knowledge of advaita Vedanta from Sachidananda of Pushkar, but you don’t know (anymore) what kind of teachings they were.
- acintya bheda-abheda tattva you present here under the title of advaita has nothing to do with advaita.

Advaita is not dvaita-advaita (bheda-abheda tattva).
The term advaita is for a long time defined as not being different (not two), and bheda-abheda means something more (being different and not different).
You seem to be more advaitin, and because you are an advaitin you started and ended with advaita tattva: “from begining of this thread i just told this thing that sakhis,manjari,krishna all are spiritual bodies,that means tattva which are in origin one brahman and hence advita”.

anadi
21 May 2011, 03:09 AM
See I am not into any sort of sastrartha/debate or want to prove anything to anybode.I am a busy practicing profession who believes in realizing truth by sadhna,not what chaitanya mahaprabhu or Prabhupada says or wrote.
Dandavat,
Is very good that you believe that the Absolute Truth can be realized only by sadhana. In fact there is no other way, even if sometimes it seems that some people made it by mercy of guru, vaishanvas or the Supreme Lord Himself.

In my opinion is not so good that you don’t believe what Sri Caitanya said, although, as I see, you use some of His philosophy.

I don’t care if you believe what Bbaktivedanta Swami known also as Prabhupada, said or wrote. I've never used his statements in my arguments.



I Believe in knowing truth of Chaitanya mahaprabhu by directly asking him in prayer.and I know he has explained me with his blessings.
It is very nice that you are on the level of communicating with chaitanya mahaprabhu.
Please ask Him if you should accept what He says, as long as you write that you don’t believe “what chaitanya mahaprabhu … says or wrote”.
(Ask Him what of His teachings, I presented to you, were manipulated.)

anirvan
21 May 2011, 07:08 AM
Dandavat,

One thing you must remember that every adhyatmika truth can be understood simply by average mind,but when it comes to true vedanta,advita.....only highest developed brain with higher order genius with extremely huge broad imaginary capacity can able to conceive it.

Thats why simple dvaita,dvaita-advita are being taught by Mahaprabhu to mass population.he came for ordinary jivas"s savings.and he taught the working knowledge of truth ,which is more that sufficient for a ordinary people to ascend in spiritual world,even to highest.but that doesn"t cover whole knowledge part of truth.

If advita is so complex,how can you imagine that dvaita-advita will be so simple?
I never tried hard to explain advita as truth,but i sincerely tried to explain that whatever you are rejecting with such simple sentences are not that simple,and how it is advita which is back bone of achintyabheda-bheda.

*moral of story= never discuss any spiritual matter with anybody except those with equal bhava & knowledge and its the duty of Guru to explain the truth to true seeker.i am leaving the thread here.

anadi
21 May 2011, 07:39 AM
I just hoped to help you understanding the real meaning of Advita and its just same and one with Achintyabhedabheda.
dandavat,
The real meaning of advaita is only half of the truth (see previous post). That is why the Vaishnavas added to it the dvaita part, to make it complete.

Nowadays some “new age” advaitins became proponents of Achintyabhedabheda, as they understood that advaita is only half of the truth – the non difference, but quite amazingly they present it as advaita (it is not only you).

The classical advaita- vada is maya-vada, propagating that everything in this world is not real, the reality (the eternity) is being all one = Brahman = pure spiritual light, --> no eternal personalities.



if your mind and rational thinking is blocked by previous studies,its not my fault, neither I can able to prove by sastra

It is not only the understaning of sastra, but also the opinion of vast majority of the advaitins, see please the posts of atanu in this forum – he is one of them (a classical) advaita-vadi.

anadi
21 May 2011, 07:48 AM
For me,even if Srikrishna,chaitanya,shankara ,vyasa comes to explain something contrary to my gurudev,i will simply say......excuse and wait outside.
dandavat,

This doctrine is not new at all,
it is the breed of classical fanaticism,
an extreme interpretation of the principle of guru-nistha.

anadi
21 May 2011, 08:11 AM
…your gurudeva claims, against the teachings of the gaudiya vaishva school, that one may identify oneself during his raganuga sadahan bhakti (which aims of going in Goloka-Vrindavan) with the Lord or His associates.
the difference is in your understanding, not in facts.
dandavat,
Well, it is not my understanding, it is the understanding of Visvanatha Cakravarti who after his fulfilled raganuga sadhana, realized his svarup as Manjari in eternal Krishna lila. By the mercy of his spiritual master, Visvanatha Cakravarti lived in many different places within Vraja-dhama, and composed various transcendental literatures there. Most of these books are very difficult to find nowadays; however a few of them are well known, and are considered to be the supremely honorable wealth of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

In one of these books called Raga Vartma Candrika text 12 he wrote:
tani carcana bhaktavahangropasana - identifying oneslef with the object of worship during arcana
mudra nyasa dvaraka dhyana - using mudras, practicing nyasa, meditating on Dvaraka
rukminyadi pujadiny - worshiping Rukmini
vihitanyapi naivi karyani - are practices described in the agama sastras (which the raganuga sadhaka should not perform).

The above practices belong obvioulsy to svabhista-bhava-virudha
unfavorable items (pratikula) which hamper the development of Vrindavan bhakti, as delineated in the next text 13.

If your guru says that you may become Radha or Krishna it is your problem, but I personally don’t believe, you will get to Vrindavan, but to Vaikuntha, getting svarupya-mukti, a form (almost) identical with the object of your worship.

anirvan
24 May 2011, 08:17 AM
The classical advaita- vada is maya-vada, propagating that everything in this world is not real, the reality (the eternity) is being all one = Brahman = pure spiritual light, --> no eternal personalities.

Dandavat Anadi ji,you are always going in argumenting mood,thats why just not getting the point.

Advita never said about absence of eternal personalities. I have tried so honestly to convince this to you in all posts.
Its different angel of view.Its not like half or full truth.

Advitin looks at Krishna as TATTVA, the essence of supreme brahman,the ghee inside the milk.but not as Personal form.

Vaishnavas looks the same Krishna TATTVA AS PERSONAL FORM in banshidhari nilakamal nayana,pitambar clad Gopi-ballabha.

Its according to bhava of bhakta,bhagvan appears to him.if you want to find him as human form,you will be in his leela dhama of vrindavan.
if you want him as nirguna brahman,then you will never find his personal form which is most sweet,gratifying and highest goal.

anirvan
24 May 2011, 08:24 AM
it is the breed of classical fanaticism,
an extreme interpretation of the principle of guru-nistha.
[/QUOTE]

Without true guru bhakti or bhagvat bhakti ,you can never understand this aspects,only love teaches this.intellectual bhakti as you are posting with sastra will never get to know what is love all about.

When you will learn to love truely,either Guru or krishna,you will understand.when love comes,all difference vanishes between guru,krishna as they are one and same.

And my intention of above post was to show that,if some body is saying contrary to guru,then he can never be bhagban or saddha.

anirvan
24 May 2011, 08:31 AM
If your guru says that you may become Radha or Krishna it is your problem, but I personally don’t believe, you will get to Vrindavan, but to Vaikuntha, [FONT=Verdana]


I can sympathize with above statements.and better no comments on what you are thinking.

anadi
24 May 2011, 12:17 PM
seven parts of Ramayan finished ,and your conclusion is that Sita is a female?;)

dandavat,
in my words, according to gaudiya vaishnava siddhanta
She is not female. She has an eternal female body.
No, I cannot say she has ... no,
She is an eternal female, the eternal consort of the eternal Lord Rama, and they live in the eternal Ayodia, where all the devotees of Lord Rama go, not in brahman, the light glow fence that cover the spiritual worlds from those, who didn't establish a relation to any of the eternal forms of the Lord.

The classical example for that, can be found in Isa Upanisad 16:

pūṣann ekarṣe yama sūrya prājāpatya
vyūha raśmīn samūha
tejo yat te rūpaḿ kalyāṇa-tamaḿ
tat te paśyāmi yo 'sāv asau puruṣaḥ so 'ham asmi

O maintainer, primeval sage, regulating principle - pūṣan eka-ṛṣe yama
aim of the sūris (great devotees), well-wisher of the progenitors - sūrya prājāpatya
kindly withdraw the rays of the expanding effulgence (Brahman) – samūha raśmīn vyūha tejaḥ
so that I may see Your most auspicious form- yat paśyāmi te kalyāṇa-tamam rūpam
and so as You are an enjoyer, myself I am that (an enjoyer – purusa) - tat te yaḥ asau asau puruṣaḥ saḥ aham asmi.

anadi
24 May 2011, 12:30 PM
What can i say than pity myself?
SO YOU WANT TO SAY SERVANT IS SUPERIOR TO MASTER???
THIS IS ADHIKARATVA,AS YOU ARE A ADHIKARI,SO YOU WILL LIKE.
sudra will behave like sudra,khsatriya will behave like khsatriya.siva swaroop will be siva,dasa swaroop will be dasa.
dandavat,

Yes, we pretend we are masters, and Krishna pretends He is our servant, fulfilling our lousy desires here, and not only.
But the moment we change to the opposite attitude, and don't play the master role anymore,
and accept being servants... especialy of Him, and of those who serve Him (as expressed by Sri Caitanya, and quoted previously)
we start to purchase Him,
and the moment we start to love Him,
and serve Him because of our revealed love (up to erotic love),
we get into our true position…as Sri Caitanya said,
"jīvera svarūpa haya kṛṣṇera nitya-dāsa",
but truly there is no idea of being superior or not, is only love that matters.
Serving Krishna as a heroine of amorous love – prema nayika – has nothing to do with “sudra will behave like sudra,khsatriya will behave like khsatriya…”,
is love outside of any social designations.

Krishna is the highest servant, that's why He is called the greatest master.
We may give our best to be somehow like Him.

anadi
28 May 2011, 12:10 PM
Mahavakya is not any sort of mantra,its ultimate vedanta truth,the final vedanta conclusion of one"s soul.
dandavat,

Yes, the proponents of Vedanta (of Sankar-acarya) consider “aham brahmasmi” as the final truth, the highest saying –(vakya),
If you know other Vedanta, where it is stated this conclusion please give the quotes.
This mahavakya says only one thing – I am spiritual or – I am not made of duality (the principle of the material world) – it says only the beginning of the Truth - advaita.
This vakya does not say anything about dvaita (being different):
- about sva-rupa – one’s own possible spiritual form
- rasa – the tastes of spiritual love one may experience in the spiritual realm
- sambandha – loving relation one may have with the Supreme Lord.

And this is why the vaishanavas will never consider the “aham brahmasmi” as the highest saying – maha-vakya.

For example kāma-gāyatrī mantra considering jiva’s attraction to Krishna as the transcendental Lord of amorous Love is deemed far and beyond higher by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas:

klīḿ kāma-devāya vidmahe puṣpa-bāṇāya dhīmahi tan no 'nańgaḥ pracodayāt

anadi
30 May 2011, 02:37 AM
anadi wrote
The philosophy of your Gurudeva seems to say that
we jiva-shakti may become the eternal enjoyer of the eternal lady-lovers of the Supreme Lord in category Radha tattva, or Her own expansions (as per Gaudiya tradition) the Lakshmis in the Vaikuntha (spiritual) worlds – Laxmis who may also be seen as indirect expansions of the Lord (Shaktiman) as His consorts.
These consorts are God as women.
In your conception it seems that we- jivas may enjoy the consorts of the Supreme Lord.
As much as I know, shastras speak about this as beeing an idea of the demons:
Ravana wanted Sita, Sankachuda (Kamsa) wanted Radha... and so on.



anirvan wrote
Demonic buddhi is about body consciousness.its about ignorance and is EGO PERSONIFIED and always against the wish of their guru. Ravan,mahisasura and other demons wanted the Consortium of divine in Body consciousness and there was ego and attitude of conquering the physical aspect. And result was always crushing of the demon”s ego by divine.
dandavat,

In my opinion, for the attainment of a certain spiritual body and spiritual relation, is not the “body consciousness” as the most important point.
The desire which is related to a spiritual object is more important, because this desire should be fulfiled by the Suprme Lord in the long run.

We learn from Maha-Bharata that Paundraka, considered himself Vishnu; this was his ardent desire – to be Vishnu, and he was too in bodily consciousness (adding two more arms to his body and so on), and what was the result? He got his wish fulfilled. Krishna killed him and he got a body like Vishnu, he got svarupya-mukti in the region Vaikuntha of the spiritual world.

But this was not the point with Ravana or Sankachuda, as they were killed by the Supreme Lord. There is no description about Ravana getting Sita as wife in the eternal Ayodia or Sankachuda getting Radha as his beloved in Goloka-Vrindavan. And so there is no reference in the Vedic literature one may become Krishna and enjoy with Radha in Goloka-Vrindavan, which is the private residence of the Supreme Lord, where He does not act as the Supreme but as a child, a friend, or an enamored young boy.

Your example
“Its Vamadev...rishi who has worshiped God as wife. and about his is mentioned in Rigveda -mandala 4 and and lots of compositions in Rigveda are by him.”
has been proven … a hoax.

And even if it were true, it still does not say anything about the relations jiva can attain in Goloka-Vrindavan, the private residence of the Suprme Lord. Except Gaudiya Vaishnavas there are no other devotees that elaborately dealt with this subject matter.

As regarding Shiva tattva, is well known that this is a form of God always related to the material world (Kailasa region), and simmilar to the postion of Brahmaa, this can be taken by a jiva.
As such the position of His wife is taken by a jiva, when Shiva is a jiva.

Shiva tattva is not equal to Krishna tattva. There are very many differences between the two.
According to Gaudiya Vaishnavas, Jiva can take the position of Shiva (which is not an absolute eternal position), but not the position of Krishna, Rama or Narayana, which are absolute eternal positions.

anadi
05 June 2011, 05:44 AM
what a ignorant meaning of nirvikalpa? who told there is no aham? so brahman has no aham?is he innert or dead or what?

What does it means Sat? It means I am there,eternally. then who is this "I"?
...
dandavat
this I is brahma - aham brahmasmi.
I have the impression, you don’t read quite carefully what I write, or maybe you don’t understand quite well english.
I said, “there is no conception of aham in nirvikalpa realization except that one is spiritual – Brahman”.
This is the only "idea" in nirvikalpa samadhi, there is no idea of aham guru, or I am something else except aham brahmasmi.
Here are some descriptions of nirvikalpa Samadhi:
http://www.godrealized.com/nirvikalpa_samadhi.html (http://www.godrealized.com/nirvikalpa_samadhi.html) -> Nirvikalpa Samadhi - state of absolute nothingness

Nirvikalpa is a Sanskrit adjective with the general sense of "not admitting an alternative" - there is no alternative to aham brahmasmi (like aham guru or aham ???).

http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/samadhi/ (http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/samadhi/) ->
In savikalpa samadhi there are thoughts and ideas coming from various places, but they do not affect you. While you are meditating, you remain undisturbed, and your inner being functions in a dynamic and confident manner. But when you are a little higher, when you have become one with the soul in nirvikalpa samadhi, there will be no ideas or thoughts at all.

http://www.answers.com/topic/nirvikalpa#ixzz1MpHtqBOB (http://www.answers.com/topic/nirvikalpa#ixzz1MpHtqBOB) ->

"Nirvikalpa samādhi, on the other hand, absorption without self-consciousness, is a mergence of the mental activity (cittavṛtti) in the Self, to such a degree, or in such a way, that the distinction (vikalpa) of knower, act of knowing, and object known becomes dissolved — as waves vanish in water, and as foam vanishes into the sea.
The difference to the other samadhis is that there is no return from this samadhi into lower states of consciousness. Therefore this is the only true final Enlightenment." - advaitins theory.

My conclusion:
Your guru could not come from nirvikalpa samadhi with the aham of guru.
And as long as recounted it, he has this abhiman of being guru, which means, he could not ever been in nirvikalpa samadhi.

anadi
09 June 2011, 02:05 PM
..What does it means Sat? It means I am there,eternally. then who is this "I"?
He IS bRAHMAN, and the central most consciousness is Guru-brahman.the nirguna state of Jagatguru.
dandavat,

1. We have again the problem that you state things, bringing no evidence for them. I don’t know any description of those who attained nirvikalpa Samadhi, where would be said that the central most state of consciousness in Brahman would be that of being guru.


...the nirguna state of Jagatguru.

2. No sastra or description of the ones that realized Nirvikalpa samādhi, uphold your invention:
the state of Nirvikalpa samādhi = the nirguna state of Jagatguru.

3. Nirvikalpa samādhi is a state described by those who realized it, as nirguna, having no gunas.
Opposed to it, you describe brahman (realization) as (the state of) having all gunas, and from all those gunas, your guru claims, he chose that of being Jagatguru (which anyway would be a state related to the material universe, which should never exist in the pure spiritual state of nirvikalpa samadhi).

I think that according to all those who realized nirvikalpa samadhi, and the descriptions of your guru of his realization of nirvikalpa samadhi, he could never attain that realization, which he "described" according his own theory.

anirvan
10 June 2011, 02:16 AM
Though I haven"t read in detail of your above reading,one thing i can say is that you are an arrogant,average intelligent individual with zero interest in spiritual growth,but disillusioned with such cheap arrogance without any open mind/heart to receive truth or earning for truth.also i hardly believe you have any direct spiritual experience.so its my major blunder to even start discussing any sort of conversation.also i know that such highly secret spiritual wisdom which i put on such a forum is a sin of me which i should not discuss in open place.so i am sorry,and plz dont put any posts referring to me.

Shastra is not bigger than gREAT SIDDHA PURUSH.what such siddha says becomes Shastra subsequently.and spiritual knowledge is not complete at any time,its eternally evolving.
god reveals to only simple,innocent and open heart.god bless you.

anadi
10 June 2011, 09:17 AM
Though I haven"t read in detail of your above reading,one thing i can say is that you are an arrogant,average intelligent individual with zero interest in spiritual growth,but disillusioned with such cheap arrogance without any open mind/heart to receive truth or earning for truth.also i hardly believe you have any direct spiritual experience.so its my major blunder to even start discussing any sort of conversation.also i know that such highly secret spiritual wisdom which i put on such a forum is a sin of me which i should not discuss in open place.so i am sorry,and plz dont put any posts referring to me.

Shastra is not bigger than gREAT SIDDHA PURUSH.what such siddha says becomes Shastra subsequently.and spiritual knowledge is not complete at any time,its eternally evolving.
god reveals to only simple,innocent and open heart.god bless you.

I am very sorry that I upset you. My only desire is that you may find the proper arguments to contradict me, so that I agree with you that your guru is a gREAT SIDDHA PURUSH.
Your presentation has not conviced me. I would even come to visit you, if you may convice me about the qualities of your guru, and if you would agree to come to visit you.

uttam
04 October 2011, 05:51 AM
i think chaitanya mahapravu taught bidhi vakti to sanatan and rag vakti to srirup because in chaitanya charitamrita we see that mahapravu taught srirup the sasa tatwa and vakti sidhanta to sanatan. it is clear that srirup,swarup damodar and ramananda ray are all follower of ras that is rag vakti . to realise rag vakti one must understand these three main pillers of mahapravu.

anadi
04 October 2011, 12:01 PM
i think chaitanya mahapravu taught bidhi vakti to sanatan and rag vakti to srirup because in chaitanya charitamrita we see that mahapravu taught srirup the sasa tatwa and vakti sidhanta to sanatan. it is clear that srirup,swarup damodar and ramananda ray are all follower of ras that is rag vakti . to realise rag vakti one must understand these three main pillers of mahapravu.
Speaking to Sanatan about Vrindavan, the swetness of Krishna, the arrow like sidelong glances of Krishna which pierce the minds of the gopis, are clear hints of raganunga bhakti.

Madhya 21.102

kṛṣṇera madhura rūpa, śuna, sanātana
ye rūpera eka kaṇa, ḍubāya saba tribhuvana,
sarva prāṇī kare ākarṣaṇa

"(Dear) Sanātana, hear (now), the form of Kṛṣṇa is sweet - sanātana śuna rūpa kṛṣṇera madhura.
One particle of His form (may) flood all three worlds - eka kaṇa ye rūpera ḍubāya saba tri-bhuvana
And make all living entities to be attracted (to Him)- kare sarva prāṇī ākarṣaṇa

Madhya 21.105

bhūṣaṇera bhūṣaṇa ańga, tāheń lalita tri-bhańga,
tāhāra upara bhrūdhanu-nartana
terache netrānta bāṇa, tāra dṛḍha sandhāna,
vindhe rādhā-gopī-gaṇa-mana

The charming features of the limbs of the body (of Krishna) are the ornaments of (His) ornaments - lalita tāheń ańga bhūṣaṇa bhūṣaṇera
More than that (his body) is (charmingly) bent in three places - tāhāra upara tri-bhańga
(his) crooked dancing eyes fix that strong arrows - terache bhrū-dhanu-nartana sandhāna dṛḍha bāṇa
At the end of the eye (side long) piercing the minds of Radha and of the hosts of gopis - netra-anta vindhe mana rādhā gopī-gaṇa.

All next "instructions" up to the end of the 21. chapter are related to raganuga-bhakti.

It is also true that Sriman Mahaprabhu entrusted the responsibility for promoting the details of the practice of raganunga bhakti to Sri Gopal Guru Gosvami who, as the foremost disciple of Vakerswara Pandit, became intimately connected with the Lord during His last eighteen years at Puri. Due to intimacy with Svarupa Damodar also, Gopal gained an exceptional insight into Sriman Mahaprabhu’s internal movements. This pleased the Lord so much that Mahaprabhu selected him to be the first Acarya of Gambhira after His departure.

The Lord also instructed him to write a Paddhati on Siddha-pranali and lila-smaran, and awarded him the title of “Guru”. Sri Gopal Guru’s disciple, Sri Dhyan-candra Goswami was also ordered later to compile a second Paddhati which has received equal acclaim.

Still later, following these two Arcana Paddhati Sri Siddha Krishna Das Babaji compiled Sadhan-amrita-candrika, which combines upasak poriskriti, lila smaran, archana, dhyan and sadhu kritya, all in one book. These three have been recognized since as the original Archana Paddhati of the Gaudiya Sampradaya commonly referred to as Paddhati-traya