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Harinama
02 May 2011, 12:58 PM
Although I am reconsidering going back to my Gaudiya Vaishnava practice since yesterday, I received an overflowing of painful memories because of my experiences...

Here is a letter I gave to my local ISKCON temple concerning my transgender status: http://chakra.org/discussions2/GenMay11_10.html

I felt so burned out... I gave my everything: looked up to the authorities, chanted sixteen rounds of the Hare Krishna mahamantra, forgoed illicit sex, intoxicants (alcohol, caffeine and nicotine), gambling, and meat-eating (no meat, fish, eggs, onions or garlic), I went on harinamas, preached the temple and brought people to it and engaged them in the process, went once a week for Mangala Arati and did silver polishing for the Deities, and served the devotees there.

And yet, I felt that I was treated like a mleccha or a yavana... :mad:

Anyways, sensitive stuff.

Water
02 May 2011, 02:30 PM
Quite the email!

I guess the outstanding question that I have is: does anyone have to know?

That is, to put it in a quite tacky way (forgiveness:)) on one extreme, are you "passable" enough so that the questions and judgments do not arise? Or, (and again, forgiveness:)) to put it in another quite tacky way on the other extreme, are you fishing for husbands at temple events?

Parallel to the topic, I view my own sexuality and religion as very personal things. To this day, I find it quite awkward when people address themselves to me as, "I'm a [female/male/transgender, gay, lesbian, etc] [Catholic, Christian, etc]!" before I even know their last name. I generally retort with something about masturbating with tinfoil.... the point being I don't care what someones sexuality/gender/etc is unless I intend to date them. :)

That is my jest that it is simply none of their business and that they have shared far too much information with me in a professional or casual environment. :)

Eastern Mind
02 May 2011, 03:03 PM
Vannakkam Harinama: You probably know of this site/group already, but in case you don't, here it is. http://www.galva108.org/

I am saddened by hearing such treatment in this day and age. God does not belong to any gender, race, caste, or creed. Those who think so are misinformed. Best wishes, and I hope you don't encounter such treatment here on HDF.

Old ideas do die hard.

Aum Namasivaya

Harinama
02 May 2011, 05:42 PM
Quite the email!

I guess the outstanding question that I have is: does anyone have to know?

That is, to put it in a quite tacky way (forgiveness:)) on one extreme, are you "passable" enough so that the questions and judgments do not arise? Or, (and again, forgiveness:)) to put it in another quite tacky way on the other extreme, are you fishing for husbands at temple events?

Parallel to the topic, I view my own sexuality and religion as very personal things. To this day, I find it quite awkward when people address themselves to me as, "I'm a [female/male/transgender, gay, lesbian, etc] [Catholic, Christian, etc]!" before I even know their last name. I generally retort with something about masturbating with tinfoil.... the point being I don't care what someones sexuality/gender/etc is unless I intend to date them. :)

That is my jest that it is simply none of their business and that they have shared far too much information with me in a professional or casual environment. :)

Well, the problem was that it's hard not to hide it when you are going to the temple regularly for activities and darshana, about two to three times a week, and you live right across from the temple. Eventually, questions arose, and hence I had to tell them.

And of course, the biggest problem that comes right into the temple was prajalpa - idle gossip, backbiting and chattering. Anything hot and interesting became passed around like crazy.

Since a year's passing, I have quite distanced myself from the temple. But as a Gaudiya Vaishnava, association of devotees and realised Vaishnavas (sadhu-sanga) forms a nucleus upon which all bhakti sadhana are done - hari-katha (hearing about the pastimes of the Lord), harinama (going out on the streets for chanting the names of God and dancing, as well as preaching), japa, aratis, home programs, etc. When theologically you are expected to be in association constantly to purify the self away from Maya, as well as to help develop Krishna consciousness, it can be difficult to get away with people to start questioning things.

I know GALVA pretty well, and it is only an on-line group that is limited by online support. Otherwise, it is difficult to find support, and those that are LGBT are quitely in the closet.

When different-sex devotees are allowed to couple and have marriage, have sex and are known and praised by the community, it can be difficult at that age to think of a double life. Why is it that married couples can have marriage, share their joys in the community, and then have a same-sex couple be denied of that?

It takes about a year to change, and then some to develop and completely change over... but now that I have stopped that, I still have to deal with the fact that I prefer men over women, and if for example, I choose to have a family, then how can I have those samskaras for my children?

In Vaishnavism, religion isn't really personal as much as it is communal... so it can be difficult. When you are taught, 'sadhu-sanga, sadhu-sanga, sadhu-sanga' and you can't get sanga... it makes a Vaishnava life a tiny bit more difficult.

charitra
02 May 2011, 07:45 PM
Hari, that was a carefully drafted mail, very moving and balanced take indeed. Krishna in his human avatar , right from his toddler days, was known for his love for fellow humans especially the peasants. He was thoroughly saddened when Kauravas resorted to disrobe Draupadi in front of many individuals, including the 5 strongest men of the era who happen to be also her husbands, the Pandavas. Krishna didn’t disappoint the distressed sister, while protecting her modesty he sent out a warning that humiliating innocents wont be forgiven, the Kauravas met their end under his watchful eyes in kurukshetra war soon after. Both Brihannala and Shikandi served as glorious examples, encouraged by none other than Krishna himself, confirming role of Thrithiya prakriti in upholding dharma. Hindus thus were robust in presenting Thrithiya prakriti on the side of dharma right from the days of Mahabharata, circa 3,500BC. If some hindus discriminate you they falsely claim religious sanction, it is clearly adharma. That said at individual level people can depart from scripture, those people who publicly humiliated you are Kauravas in their past lives they meet similar end again in this janma. Their deluded happy life is akin to that of Kaurava kings enjoyed. Please print this and send them to remind them that they are on their shishupala count down as we speak. ;)
You are looking for the acceptance and/ or admiration of human beings around you, please don’t try to change those who are incapable of it, for change is divine not all can rise to that level; if they own a building and call it a gods place they are deluded, divinity had left the building the moment they hurled insults at you, its a private pub now.. Scriptures have explained the case of Thrithiya Prakriti for the benefit of human race to understand nature they are not familiar with, and thereby removing their own andhakaara (ignorance)... Just because you meet persons with hindu names, do you know they aren’t Kauravas you are looking at, you don’t. so please walk away from them and soon you will find Pandavas at the next intersection. As for as krisna I respect and understand of is concerned you and Cher’s offspring are very welcome. :)

Water
03 May 2011, 09:41 AM
You have presented the scenario with a great sophistication and eloquence.

Unfortunately, as charitra and EM said, you can't always force change and old practices do indeed die hard. :(

You do have a great opportunity to express your forgiveness, tolerance and patience. :D

Good luck to you!

sunyata07
03 May 2011, 02:03 PM
Namaste Harinama,

It is very disheartening to hear how intolerant some groups can be. From your email and your previous posts, it sounds like you were very much devoted to the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition and your love for Krishna is, goes without saying, very evident. Amazing how this alone does not supercede the other factors regarding your personal background. As Water was saying earlier, I would love for there to be a world in the future where there is an entirely neutral stance towards race, religion, sexual orientation. And yet, I can understand how upset you must feel at not even being accepted. Certainly I have never understood the aversion people seem to have towards same-sex couples marrying. I wonder is there a perceived threat towards the propagation of the species somewhere? There seems to be no other explanation... Tolerance on race, religion and sexual orientation and status are slowly turning, and I believe there will be a time in the future when the bigotry so many have inherited from misguided generations will change.

I hope you will be able to continue pursuing the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition as you have always wanted. To be discouraged away from it by the ignorant few would be very sad, indeed. God bless.

Om namah Shivaya

Water
03 May 2011, 02:33 PM
There are a few extreme opinions on the matter. I do not stand behind these points and do not intend to be "anti-gay." The intent is to offer them to better understand some of the intolerance.

The coupling most prone toward domestic violence and a generally volatile household are LBT women. This was determined as early as 1998 by the American National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs. As far as I know, this statistic has held true since then. Many states either do not allow same-sex family adoption or specifically score couples that are women far lower than even a single individual for consideration.

GBT males are nearly always associated with unrestricted promiscuity. From televised Pride parades to overly stylized and emphasized individuals.... The published lifestyles of the minority afflicts the majority. As a result, they are associated with disease and the early press releases regarding HIV throughout the 80s didn't help.

The root of the cause, unfortunately, is probably something not nearly scientific. Parents with overactive minds (as well as a few loopy "normal" people) are probably afraid that exposure to people of alternate lifestyles will somehow make them that lifestyle. Some primitive survival/pack trigger is probably to blame. Who knows? :)

All of these viewpoints, out of respect, can be valid even if not exactly rational...... Even for the rational thinkers, the statistics at the current time of our understanding are valid and clearly available for reevaluation at any time. The HIV statistics, for example, have been proven many times over to falsely predict higher infection rates in LGBT than heterosexual participants.

It is important to be tolerant of opinions that are in opposite of your own. Many times, it may be a case of someone trying to protect something equally beloved to them as you are trying to protect yourself.

Again, I wish nothing but the best of luck to our friend Harinama. I don't think I provided anything that could directly contribute to helping him, although I hope the examples may help some tolerance and understanding.

Kumar_Das
03 May 2011, 03:13 PM
And yet, I felt that I was treated like a mleccha or a yavana... :mad:

Anyways, sensitive stuff.

TROLL.

anirvan
04 May 2011, 03:08 AM
[QUOTE=Harinama;64244]Although I am reconsidering going back to my Gaudiya Vaishnava practice since yesterday, I received an overflowing of painful memories because of my experiences...


Dear Harinam,i feel very happy to see such a devoted Vaishnav like you.And you must go back and do which is most comfortable.

Are not you able to see the testing of Madanmohan??? Tell me which Bhakta has got near to him without getting rejected and humiliated by society??? Alawys face such challenges keeping in mind that its the exam taken by Mohan. he will make you pure gold after burning in such fires.

Do you forgot the Insult,humility to Srimati Radharani,the dignified daughter-in-law of Vrindavan being called a kalankini(tampered character). these were all srikrishna"s testing .

He will make sure that you should belong to him only in mind-speak;thought. he will bring out any remnants of World from your heart.you will be more and more devoted to him.you will realize that the world is trans-gender,not you.

This very fact was shown in Radharani"S husband---a Transgender,it was a metaphor to show that world/sansar is nothing to us,but only srikrishna is.

I hope you will take this way your humiliation.god bless you.

Harinama
04 May 2011, 07:31 AM
TROLL.

Dude, why are you calling me a troll?

:rolleyes:

I'm a real guy. You can search for me on Facebook if you want, and just Private Message me.

I was strongly part of the Gaudiya Vaishnava community. If I was trolling, I would be against Hinduism, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, etc... However, I am not against Gaudiya Vaishnavism, as much as I am still doubting about Mahaprabhu being the 'Hidden Avatara.'

What my letter was to convey was my experiences with a local temple, which may differ geographically in terms of experience. I was the only one out, although I've known at least three gay devotees and three trans-vaishnavis, although all in the closet.

Harinama
04 May 2011, 07:34 AM
You have presented the scenario with a great sophistication and eloquence.

Unfortunately, as charitra and EM said, you can't always force change and old practices do indeed die hard. :(

You do have a great opportunity to express your forgiveness, tolerance and patience. :D

Good luck to you!

Thank you! Even if, because of my running away and coming back, that the devotees of my Math do not accept me and I will not take initiation from them, I am still going to follow this Gaudiya tradition. I have to thank its coming to the West, because it is a very beautiful religion, and accessible for much of us Westerners.

There are more and more gay Vaishnavas out there than I realised, but many of them are closeted. I pray that Mahaprabhu's mercy will be upon such souls, and that soon these distinctions of sexual orientation will one day disappear, along with sex, creed, caste, etc.

Harinama
04 May 2011, 07:43 AM
Dear Harinam,i feel very happy to see such a devoted Vaishnav like you.And you must go back and do which is most comfortable.

Are not you able to see the testing of Madanmohan??? Tell me which Bhakta has got near to him without getting rejected and humiliated by society??? Alawys face such challenges keeping in mind that its the exam taken by Mohan. he will make you pure gold after burning in such fires.

Do you forgot the Insult,humility to Srimati Radharani,the dignified daughter-in-law of Vrindavan being called a kalankini(tampered character). these were all srikrishna"s testing .

He will make sure that you should belong to him only in mind-speak;thought. he will bring out any remnants of World from your heart.you will be more and more devoted to him.you will realize that the world is trans-gender,not you.

I hope you will take this way your humiliation.god bless you.

I'm not sure if I am a good Vaishnava anymore, prabhu, lol. I have entrenched myself into so much Maya, so me coming back has been only from two days. And yet I do understand and realise that this material world is but fickle, and I am now trying to live as a gay male, and hope to find a nice Vaishnava husband.

If I can not find someone, then I will continue on with my spiritual life and remain by myself. Unless a nice man presses forward and is serious about spiritual life, it is of no doubt to even entertain any material relationship.

Thank you so much... I know that the Lord desires me to come to Him in an even better way than ever... He has shown me that such tests should be seen as a mercy from Him, and that Krishna will take away as much as possible for His devotee to come to Him.

It's so nice to see that there are some who are supportive; I found some implicit support by some of the devotees, even if others were not so much.

I hope that tritiya prakrtas will be accepted some day in our beautiful Gaudiya Vaishnava movement. There is so little time, and the Holy Names purify whatever they touch, as chintamani. :D

Harinama
04 May 2011, 07:52 AM
Hari, that was a carefully drafted mail, very moving and balanced take indeed. Krishna in his human avatar , right from his toddler days, was known for his love for fellow humans especially the peasants. He was thoroughly saddened when Kauravas resorted to disrobe Draupadi in front of many individuals, including the 5 strongest men of the era who happen to be also her husbands, the Pandavas. Krishna didn’t disappoint the distressed sister, while protecting her modesty he sent out a warning that humiliating innocents wont be forgiven, the Kauravas met their end under his watchful eyes in kurukshetra war soon after. Both Brihannala and Shikandi served as glorious examples, encouraged by none other than Krishna himself, confirming role of Thrithiya prakriti in upholding dharma. Hindus thus were robust in presenting Thrithiya prakriti on the side of dharma right from the days of Mahabharata, circa 3,500BC. If some hindus discriminate you they falsely claim religious sanction, it is clearly adharma. That said at individual level people can depart from scripture, those people who publicly humiliated you are Kauravas in their past lives they meet similar end again in this janma. Their deluded happy life is akin to that of Kaurava kings enjoyed. Please print this and send them to remind them that they are on their shishupala count down as we speak. ;)
You are looking for the acceptance and/ or admiration of human beings around you, please don’t try to change those who are incapable of it, for change is divine not all can rise to that level; if they own a building and call it a gods place they are deluded, divinity had left the building the moment they hurled insults at you, its a private pub now.. Scriptures have explained the case of Thrithiya Prakriti for the benefit of human race to understand nature they are not familiar with, and thereby removing their own andhakaara (ignorance)... Just because you meet persons with hindu names, do you know they aren’t Kauravas you are looking at, you don’t. so please walk away from them and soon you will find Pandavas at the next intersection. As for as krisna I respect and understand of is concerned you and Cher’s offspring are very welcome. :)

Jaya! I am speechless... :p

This indeed is shastric... may you be blessed by the Lord's Supreme Mercy!

And no Cher... :rolleyes: She's the last ideal of a devidasi that I would learn from, LOL.

Water
04 May 2011, 01:11 PM
I'm a real guy. You can search for me on Facebook if you want, and just Private Message me.

Out of curiosity and boredom at lunchbreak.... I tried.

I found a fellow with of picture of Lil' Wayne. That threw me for a bit of a loop for a moment. I tried again and found a picture of a little boy facing (urinating on?) a wall. Then I gave up. :Roll:

Harinama
04 May 2011, 10:44 PM
Out of curiosity and boredom at lunchbreak.... I tried.

I found a fellow with of picture of Lil' Wayne. That threw me for a bit of a loop for a moment. I tried again and found a picture of a little boy facing (urinating on?) a wall. Then I gave up. :Roll:

Yeah, the one with Lil' Wayne? That's me on my bad days... :D