Who is Shiva?

[Rudy]

I have become interested in Lord Shiva. What are the storys about Him, what should a interested person know? And also importantly where to find these things?

Thanks for any help :)

[Water]

The place to start could be the Shiva Purana. There are quite a few sources online for the translated text. :)

Here's a link to many of the Puranas to get you started:
http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/puran.htm

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Rudy: I happen to be a member of the Saiva Sect. The very last place I would go is the Shiva Purana. Here is a link to a video that you might find inspiring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW-qrBQABD0

From a Saiva perspective, Siva is no story. He/She is reality. Causal reality, primal soul, substratum of all that exists, and more. Not just another mythical God in the group. In fact, I don't even worship that form.

I only worship Him as Nataraja, Lingam, or Dakshinamurthy, in murthy form.

I would recommend Subramuniyaswami's trilogy, Dancing with Siva, Living with Siva, and Merging with Siva. Three fairly lengthy and deep books, but written in American English.

Aum Namasivaya

[charitra]

I would recommend Subramuniyaswami's trilogy, Dancing with Siva, Living with Siva, and Merging with Siva. Three fairly lengthy and deep books, but written in American English. Aum Namasivaya

exellent books, everyone here in the west must read them.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Some say śiva is cideva bhagavatī or divine consciousness alone.
With this view, there is also the understanding that the Lord, the Supreme, is bhagavān viśvaśarira .

That is He, śiva (bhagavān) is universe-bodied (viśvaśarira). That is why this universe comes from Him - sṛṣṭi -
letting go, the manifestation from Himself.

If this is the truth, which the āgama-s tell us it is, then the question really is, what is not śiva ?

May you find your answer - śivāya gamyatām , (a prosperous journey to you)

praṇām

[Water]

The very last place I would go is the Shiva Purana.

Really? Why?

I've read most of Gurudeva's books as well as the Shiva Puranas and didn't find anything extremely contradictory. The Puranas are more mythological and anthropomorphic while the Himalayan Academy publishings are definitely more spiritual. Is that the reason?

There is probably something subtle I missed, ya? :)

[devotee]

I've read most of Gurudeva's books as well as the Shiva Puranas and didn't find anything extremely contradictory. The Puranas are more mythological and anthropomorphic while the Himalayan Academy publishings are definitely more spiritual. Is that the reason?

There is probably something subtle I missed, ya? :)

Shiva is more than what is there in the Puranas. The stories in Shiva Puranas are knowledge for the beginners in Spirituality & not for the evolved souls.

As EM and Yajvan have rightly pointed out. The Reality is Shiva. The manifested universe is the dance of Shiva. Shiva is alone that Is, was or will eever be. Shiva is the ultimate reality.

You may like to go through this thread "I Am Shiva" : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=89

OM

[Eastern Mind]

Really? Why?

I've read most of Gurudeva's books as well as the Shiva Puranas and didn't find anything extremely contradictory. The Puranas are more mythological and anthropomorphic while the Himalayan Academy publishings are definitely more spiritual. Is that the reason?

There is probably something subtle I missed, ya? :)

Vannakkam Water: For me personally, any representation that portrays God or Gods with human characteristics is sort of belittlement. I find it difficult to not think in human terms. Courtship, fighting, cutting off a child's head etc. all seem so very ungodly to me.

On a side note, I think it is also confusing to children. It more or less confirms the Abrahamic version of some old man on a cloud. Siva is far beyond human. He has no wife, for example. Siva and Devi in human form are poor representations of what in reality it is: unmanifest, and manifest energy, and much much more.

I prefer Lingam, or Nataraja as each stands out differently. Nataraja represents what primal soul actually looks like, more akin to the beings from Close Encounters, in etheric light bodies.

Even for Murugan, I like the Vel itself, and that's where my eyes automatically go whilst in worship.

But that's just me. If other people can use human representations of God, and still go beyond that in their minds, then that's fine. For children, I think they might get confused. Certainly, as soon as they are able to think abstractly, they should be told the truth.

I have nothing against Puranas or any other aspect of Hinduism, but its just not for me.

Aum Namasivaya

[Divine Kala]

I think the problem EM ji has is that he sees the Puranas as reducing Siva to a human level but I personally feel this is far from the truth. The Shiva Purana gives Shiva human characteristics so that we weak humans can identify with him. He carries out his leelas so that we may transcend mere human thinking and achieve even some small union with 'him'.

[Water]

I see. The responses confirmed what I had thought - the puranas are considered more "fables" than truth.

Just to be clear, my personal beliefs do not align with considering Mahadeva a "simple human" or anything along those lines. :)

"Cutting off a child's head" ? The Purana says he lopped off a fierce opponent's head! Ganesha can never considered a mere child. :)

[Eastern Mind]

I see. The responses confirmed what I had thought - the puranas are considered more "fables" than truth.

Just to be clear, my personal beliefs do not align with considering Mahadeva a "simple human" or anything along those lines. :)

"Cutting off a child's head" ? The Purana says he lopped off a fierce opponent's head! Ganesha can never considered a mere child. :)

Vannakkam Water: As you may have suspected, I am not very familiar with the Puranas, so perhaps I misinterpreted. I think I read that one once a long time ago, and have now forgotten.

Aum Namasivaya

[Water]

Vannakkam Water: As you may have suspected, I am not very familiar with the Puranas, so perhaps I misinterpreted. I think I read that one once a long time ago, and have now forgotten.

Aum Namasivaya

As I remember, there are a few different stories for that scenario from several sources. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the source is for a few of them! :)

In summary, one says that Shiva struck off Ganesha's head when he was denied entrance to see Parvati. There was no other choice - Ganesha was fending off unbelievable odds by himself!

There is another that says Ganesha's face was horribly burned when Parvati insisted Shani look upon the new born.

A third one is that Ganesha was so beautiful it was a curse. His head was replaced with the Elephant along with the addition of a portly belly to alleviate the problem of every being instantly falling in love with him. :)

I'm not sure of any reference to these stories in any material from the Himalayan Academy. I don't remember if they mention the broken tusk, either... ?

In retrospect, if I ever do have children, I would probably share these stories with them. It seems like they would help to solidify an early love and understanding of the material and "characters" so that they may better relate to the abstract material when they are older. I think they may be equally as important in understanding of the more abstract concepts as they introduced.

A strong foundation makes a strong house, of course. :)

With any luck, the Ramayana will be their favorite bedtime material. :)
With even more luck, they will already be able to understand all of the concepts moreso than myself. :)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

yet, one must ask what do the stories mean ? What is the inner meaning being offered ( saṁketa) ? This is where we find the value of the purāṇa-s¹ . The wise have been kind to us to offer the wisdom of the veda-s to us in story format.

praṇām

words

purāṇa - compiled by vyāsa-ji to address 5 topics (pañcalakṣaṇa)
purāṇas are 18 in number (the major ones)
Gouped in 3 divisions
rājasa exalting brahmā
sāttvika exalting viṣṇu
tāmasa exalting śiva
puraṇa - is the ocean, the sea.
pūraṇa - filling , completing , satisfying causing , effecting

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I've never been a metaphor guy. If there is a literal version of what something means, please just give me that. Why bother the brain with having to think it all about to determine the true meaning?

Speaking as a parent who did occasionally share such stories with children, I can honestly say what they thought as when they grew into adults they shared it with me.

Quote from a child of EM's about certain puranas: "That was just stupid!"

This was not true of all puranas or stories, mind you. But I honestly can't remember much of it.

I still remember the kid who thought I was God when he came to the temple. His parent's hadn't even bothered to explain to him the difference between a priest and God. It's our parental duty to do better.

Aum Namasivaya

[Rudy]

Those Himalayan academy books are online for free. I love the internet!:D

[Water]

Those Himalayan academy books are online for free. I love the internet!:D

They also have some free email lists you can subscribe to. I'm subscribed to the Vedic Texts and Lesson-a-day. :)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



I've never been a metaphor guy. If there is a literal version of what something means, please just give me that.


Yes, Please forward it to me also when you find it. It would surely make my life a bit easier. Until then we are given what the wise has offered to us.

praṇām

[Eastern Mind]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




Yes, Please forward it to me also when you find it. It would surely make my life a bit easier. Until then we are given what the wise has offered to us.

praṇām

Vannakkam Sir Yajvan: Your dry wit has me laughing. Of course my Guru did not speak in metaphors or riddles. Perhaps that's another reason why I was drawn to him. He did ask, "Why ask me?" sometimes. But that was a riddle I understood.

Where in the world is Carmen? doesn't really say much now does it?:)

Aum Namasivaya

[Baobobtree]

Namaste EM.



I still remember the kid who thought I was God when he came to the temple. His parent's hadn't even bothered to explain to him the difference between a priest and God. It's our parental duty to do better.

Aum Namasivaya


Some would argue that there is no difference between you and God, or the curious child for that matter ;)

Om Namah Shivaya.

[Baobobtree]

Namste Water.


I see. The responses confirmed what I had thought - the puranas are considered more "fables" than truth.

Just to be clear, my personal beliefs do not align with considering Mahadeva a "simple human" or anything along those lines. :)

"Cutting off a child's head" ? The Purana says he lopped off a fierce opponent's head! Ganesha can never considered a mere child. :) Very good points indeed. I've never read Shiva Purana before myself, but I'm willing to bet that in addition to such mythological tales about battles between divinities, the Purana is also filled with many important Shaiva philosophical ideas, and stories about devotees of Lord Shiva. No?

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste EM.



Some would argue that there is no difference between you and God, or the curious child for that matter ;)

Om Namah Shivaya.

Vannakkam: Yes, as a matter of fact I do remember what happened as the father took the child aside to the adjoining room.:) The three year old said, "But Father, I was only speaking of this from the Advaitic perspective." At which point the father only stared at the wall. Fortunately the man's dear significant other, Shakti in disguise, came along and rescued the two of them. I ignored the whole lot, and continued my ridiculous attempt at invoking the presence of God Ganesha in the murthy so he could rescue the whole sordid lot of us fools from the duality permeating the room.

Aum Namasivaya

[Friend from the West]

Namaste,
Water, good luck. If it is any help for hope, at this stage of the game, the Ramayana is my favorite for bedtime. Of course I have to read to myself.
Peace.
Rich


As I remember, there are a few different stories for that scenario from several sources. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the source is for a few of them! :)

In summary, one says that Shiva struck off Ganesha's head when he was denied entrance to see Parvati. There was no other choice - Ganesha was fending off unbelievable odds by himself!

There is another that says Ganesha's face was horribly burned when Parvati insisted Shani look upon the new born.

A third one is that Ganesha was so beautiful it was a curse. His head was replaced with the Elephant along with the addition of a portly belly to alleviate the problem of every being instantly falling in love with him. :)

I'm not sure of any reference to these stories in any material from the Himalayan Academy. I don't remember if they mention the broken tusk, either... ?

In retrospect, if I ever do have children, I would probably share these stories with them. It seems like they would help to solidify an early love and understanding of the material and "characters" so that they may better relate to the abstract material when they are older. I think they may be equally as important in understanding of the more abstract concepts as they introduced.

A strong foundation makes a strong house, of course. :)

With any luck, the Ramayana will be their favorite bedtime material. :)
With even more luck, they will already be able to understand all of the concepts moreso than myself. :)

[Eastern Mind]

I'm not sure of any reference to these stories in any material from the Himalayan Academy. I don't remember if they mention the broken tusk, either... ?


Vannakkam: Just for info: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/dws_mandala-27.html

Basically says what Yajvan said.

Aum Namasivaya

[Baobobtree]

Vannakkam: Yes, as a matter of fact I do remember what happened as the father took the child aside to the adjoining room. The three year old said, "But Father, I was only speaking of this from the Advaitic perspective." At which point the father only stared at the wall. Fortunately the man's dear significant other, Shakti in disguise, came along and rescued the two of them. I ignored the whole lot, and continued my ridiculous attempt at invoking the presence of God Ganesha in the murthy so he could rescue the whole sordid lot of us fools from the duality permeating the room.

Aum Namasivaya Hahaha, very creative :D Reminds me of the story about the shishya who was nearly killed by an elephant, after his guru told him all was Brahman. The disciple believed if the elephant was God it would not harm him, but of course it nearly trampled him to death.

[Sahasranama]

The itihasas and puranas are our cultural and religious heritage as Hindus. I enjoy reading the puranas with or without understanding the symbolism. They are not merely stories told to entertain us. As long as the ganges is flowing, cows are protected, the Gayatri is chanted and the itihasas and puranas are read, dharma will continue to flourish. This body of literature is vast and there is something for everybody.

Truth is not limited to the abstract.

[Eastern Mind]

I think the problem EM ji has is that he sees the Puranas as reducing Siva to a human level but I personally feel this is far from the truth. The Shiva Purana gives Shiva human characteristics so that we weak humans can identify with him. He carries out his leelas so that we may transcend mere human thinking and achieve even some small union with 'him'.

Vannakkam: Oh, I'm sure this was never the intention, but in some cases it turned out as an unintended result. Its not really a problem ... more just an observation on how my own mind works.

Think of connotation. I'm sure the syllables 'Si va' bring up different feelings or states of mind in each of us.

Aum Namasivaya

[anirvan]

The itihasas and puranas are our cultural and religious heritage as Hindus. I enjoy reading the puranas with or without understanding the symbolism. They are not merely stories told to entertain us. As long as the ganges is flowing, cows are protected, the Gayatri is chanted and the itihasas and puranas are read, dharma will continue to flourish. This body of literature is vast and there is something for everybody.

Truth is not limited to the abstract.

Very true, As Divine kala also pointed,puranas are more complete in the sense that it keeps the contents to cater all category of peoples.

vedas,gita,brahmasutras are for more intellectual types,but those ordinary people who can"t conceive such higher tattva its a blessings from puaranakar.
again even some intellectual peoples whose heart is more lively than dry,also get the nectar from puranas,rather from dry,tasteless vedas:)

Third thing is for bhakti, fables is very very important as food for thought.by thinking the leelas in the form of such story is most intense form of bhakti sadhna,than mere japa or dhyana.

Jayaguru

[TheOne]

You are Shiva. Get rid of the ideas of God and the self and you will see that God is reflected in you and the rest of the world.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

I cannot answer the question, 'Who is Shiva?' or What he is....
I myself am asking him and myself the same question from time immemorial.
It has been 18 years and more, since I was born in this body, still haven't got the answer. I wont give up and keep going through this quest myself. Still, I'd advice that you go through the explanation about yupa stambha in artharva veda, then you may even get an idea where to begin. I'm not going to say where shiva is, because position itself is not defined in this case.

[sunyata07]

Namaste Rudy,

You already have a wealth of information from our forum members, so I will keep this post short. I think when it comes to questions like this, the simpler the answer, the better. Unless you are asking about Shiva in His specific aspect as the great Cosmic Dissolver, your answer is already within you. Shiva is the eternal consciousness that pervades everything. Therefore, He is everything. When you come to fully understand this, you can realise your true Self and shake off the illusion of the separateness of everything. Only then will you fully appreciate the meaning of the statement "Shivoham" - I am He.

Om namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


siva सिव (or sivaka) - means one who sews or stitches , a sewer , stitcher. As siv सिव् means to sew, stitch, darn. Note the sound of this s स् sounds like the s in saint, some say the s is closer to hiss.

This is not to be confused with śiva शिव rooted śī शी, 'in whom all things lie' ; This śiva we know as The Auspicious One , the Supreme, the unsurpassable (anuttara). This ś श sounds like the s in sure or shun ( not allot of 'h' used) yet tends to lean to the 'c' sound.

I thought it interesting ...simularities back to tantra i.e. weaving.

praṇām