Shaiva Puranas Tamasic?

[Divine Kala]

Why are the Shaiva puranas considered tamasic?

[Baobobtree]

Namaste Divine Kala.

Some (orthodox) Vaishnavas regard Shaiva Puranas as Tamasic, Shaivas certainly do not. At any rate Vaishnavas have designated Shaiva Puranas as such, so as to reaffirm the supremacy of Sri Vishnu, without degrading Shaiva Holy texts. Vaishnavas do not regard Shaiva Puranas and Agamas as inherently Tamasic themselves. They believe Shaiva Puranas were invented by Ved Vyasa, so as to offer an alternative moral religion for people of Tamasic nature who are not yet ready to accept the supremacy of Vishnu. Likewise, Vaishnavas do not regard Lord Shiva as being in the mode of Tamas, but in fact believe him to be the greatest devotee of Lord Vishnu.

Of course to the Shaiva, the worship of Lord Shiva is for people in the nature of Tamas, Rajas, and Sattva, as well as enlightened beings (who are thus beyond the three material conditions).

Jai Shiva Shankar!

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9078/sivasamadhi.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/sivasamadhi.jpg/)

[devotee]

Why are the Shaiva puranas considered tamasic?

They are not considered Tamasic by Hindus in general. Yes, if you are poisoned by the canards spread by ISKCON or similar Vaishnava traditions then anything is possible.

OM

[smaranam]

They are not considered Tamasic by Hindus in general. Yes, if you are poisoned by the canards spread by ISKCON or similar Vaishnava traditions then anything is possible.

OM

Namaste Devoteeji,

I think BoaBobTree put it in excellently, pleasant speech.

I don't know if you will thalk tho me anymo'e :o but ...
following was neither ISKCON nor other VaishNav tradition , straight from Shrila VyasDev via the hands of a good Shaiva (whose labels have apparantly dissolved) :




words

purāṇa - compiled by vyāsa-ji to address 5 topics (pañcalakṣaṇa)
purāṇas are 18 in number (the major ones)
Gouped in 3 divisions
rājasa exalting brahmā
sāttvika exalting viṣṇu
tāmasa exalting śiva
puraṇa - is the ocean, the sea.
pūraṇa - filling , completing , satisfying causing , effecting

Jay Jay Shiv Shankar Bholenath Mahadev
praNAm

[adevotee108]

Hi, the ISKCON organization can be found here in my country, furtheremore that is the only well-known 'hindu' sect here. So when I began to read about Eastern religious, I mostly found books published by ISKCON's organization.

In such books Saivism is written about as a religion of lower level, Shiva is said to be tamasic etc etc.
So whenever it comes to reading a book, check who it was written and published by...

Since I have known more about ISKCON stuffs - I never was a member of it and nor would be (!) I realized that their teachings are very 'specific' (I don't wish to use harsh words...). Then I turned toward the advaita and Shaiva path. When a friend of mine belonging to ISKCON got to know this, she began to tell bad things about shaiva teachings in disrespectful ways... I just smiled at her and left. I have nothing to do with arguing with them, I rather spend my time on reading other literatures of and about Shaivism.

So be careful whose books you read...
This is a suggestion based on my experience, nothing more and nothing less. :)

[Divine Kala]

I know that I should not let it bother me but it... offends me, I suppose. I feel insulted everytime I am told I am worshipping the wrong god (to be honest, this has never happened with Indian Hindus but seems to happen a LOT with people from ISKCON) or it is implied that the form I worship is somehow less then another form.

You do not see Shaivas running around saying 'Visnu is a demigod! Visnu is beneath Shiva and always subordinate unto him!' rather you see us saying 'Shiva is Visnu's greatest devotee and Visnu is likewise Shiva's - they are one and the same'. So it's quite easy, I believe, for a Shaiva to worship Visnu as their Ishta Devata but much more difficult for a Vaishnava to do likewise (my personal belief).

[smaranam]

(to be honest, this has never happened with Indian Hindus but seems to happen a LOT with people from ISKCON)

:) That is because the saMskAr and saNskruti is central and embedded in the Indian Hindus over the generations and through society - peaceful co-existence, taking care not to hurt others as the paramAtmA resides in all hearts - "it is none of my business" thinking, embracing all, and acceptance. Moreover, due to "living" Sanatan Dharma and with that saNskruti (culture) all around them, they do not focus too much on shastra while socializing.

This is how it was meant to be - Sanatan Dharma.

It is evident when many Indian Hindus cannot get themselves to talk about vegetarianism - so as to not hurt fellow-beings.

Yet, when someone talks to you like that, tactless as they may sound, know that it is out of concern and compassion for you as a jeev, from their POV. Please look at them as an instrument of karma - to help learn and practice detachment.

Jai Shri KrushNa

praNAm

[devotee]

Namaste Smaranam,

Puranas are written for less evolved souls & when you read different Puranas you don't know which Purana to bank on for deciding which is the Supreme Godhead. There the Shruti comes to rescue. Let's see what Rudra Hridaya Upanishad says :

Namaste Smaranam,

The Puranas are written keeping people following different paths in mind. All the Puranas don't indicate that only Vishnu or only Shiva is the supreme. The deity to which the Purana is dedicated to, that particular Purana tries to show that that deity is the supreme. So, Puranas are the diluted Truth for the Bhakti Marga & not the absolute Truth. So, wherever there is doubt, there is provision to take help of Shruti to resolve the issue.

If you read the Rudra Hridaya Upanishad, it is the Rudra who is supreme :


Who is the real God of gods? In whom are all these existences established? By worshipping whom, can I please the Devas in whole?
Hearing these words, Sri Veda Vyasa replied thus:
Rudra is the embodiment of all Devas. All devas are merely different manifestations of Sri Rudra Himself. On the right side of Rudra, there is the sun, then the four-headed Brahma, and then three Agnis (fires). On the left side, there exist Sri Umadevi, and also Vishnu and Soma (moon).
Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon. Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself.

Rudra is the generator of the seed. Vishnu is the embryo of the seed. Siva Himself is Brahma and Brahma Himself is Agni. Rudra is full of Brahma and Vishnu. The whole world is full of Agni and Soma. The masculine gender is Lord Siva. The feminine gender is Sri Bhavani Devi. All the mobile and immobile creation of this universe, is filled up with Uma and Rudra. The Vyakta is Sri Uma, and the Avyakta is Lord Siva. The combination of Uma and Sankara is Vishnu.

Hence everybody should prostrate to Sri Maha Vishnu with great devotion. He is the Atman. He is the Paramatman. He is the Antaratman. Brahma is the Antaratman. Siva is the Paramatman. Vishnu is the Eternal Atman of all this universe. This whole creation of Svarga, Martya and Patala Lokas is a big tree. Vishnu is the top portion (branches) of this tree. Brahma is the stem. The root is Lord Siva.

The effect is Vishnu. The action is Brahma. The cause is Siva. For the benefit of the worlds. Rudra has taken these three forms.

Yes, in some places, Shiva is depicted as having Tamas-pradhan guna due to his ugra-rupa but that is the superficial depiction of Shiva for less developed souls. Shiva is attributeless ... beyond all Gunas. The root cause of everything that Is has to be attributeless because that is the Turiya state of Brahman.

What Yajvan has noted is correct from Vaishnava point of view but not from Shaiva point of view. For Shaivites, Lord Shiva is Supreme & Nirguna ... beyond all attributes.

OM

[smaranam]

Devotee Ji !

I was not expecting you to misunderstand that post :o

When i quoted YajvanJi's post as saying VedVyas divided the 18 mahapurANs is three categories - which is a known fact ,

That means THE PURAN is catering to a sAdhak who wants to OVERCOME TamoguNa. Who says Shiva is of TamoGuNa ? Certainly not me. He presides over Tamas, irradicates Tamas, fishes out souls to follow a natural path so it is not against the flow.

That being said, with society groups and congregations, of course all puranas are going to have readers from all three predominant guNas at least in today's world.

Even a toddler can tell that there is a sattvic or guNAteet Shaiva or a sattvic VaishNav, rajasic VaishNav etc.
Aspiring VaishNavs are first to find tamas within themselves and the last to call themselves VaishNav.

I would be the last to say "bad" things about Shambhu ShankarA, as the kind Lord ShyAmsundar has shown me years ago on RAm Navami - how Shiva and VishNu are each other's soul - they are ONE .... and yet individual forms.

praNAm

[Baobobtree]

They are not considered Tamasic by Hindus in general. Yes, if you are poisoned by the canards spread by ISKCON or similar Vaishnava traditions then anything is possible.

Namaste Devotee. These "similar Vaishnava traditions" actually include the bulk of orthodox Vaishnavism. Ramnuja, Madhvacharya, Nimbarkacharya, and Valabhacharya all regarded Vishnu as superior to Shiva. I don't know why ISKCON always gets signalled out as having overly secterian techings, when other Vaishnava sects teach the same.


I know that I should not let it bother me but it... offends me, I suppose. I feel insulted everytime I am told I am worshipping the wrong god (to be honest, this has never happened with Indian Hindus but seems to happen a LOT with people from ISKCON) or it is implied that the form I worship is somehow less then another form.

Let others think as they will. If you know Lord Shiva to be Parabrahman worship him as such, and do not pay head to the opinions of others. Your offense is simply a by-product of your devotion and love for Lord Shiva, so it is not necessarily a bad thing to be offended by those who belittle Lord Shiva. I just see no need to make a big fuss over it.


You do not see Shaivas running around saying 'Visnu is a demigod! Visnu is beneath Shiva and always subordinate unto him!' Though not show cased as much, this view still exists amongst Shaivas. The renowned Shaiva Theologian Srikantha certainly regarded Shiva as superior to Vishnu, and traditionally the Shaiva Siddhanta school of Tamil Nadu has also tought the same.

Personally I regard Shiva and Vishnu as being two different forms of the same supreme being, but this debate has gone on for thousands of years, and I see no resolve to it any time soon. Many Vaishnavas regard Shiva as Vishnu's greastest devotee,many Shaivas regard Vishnu as Shiva's greatest devotee, and Advaitans see the two as being one. We should learn to tolerate and accept these different views as having their own place in the Hindu tradition.

Om Namah Shivaya
Om Namo Narayana

[smaranam]

I don't know why ISKCON always gets signalled out as having overly secterian techings, when other Vaishnava sects teach the same.
Om Namah Shivaya
Om Namo Narayana

Because they are the organization whose leader was Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's predicted senapati bhakta - who would help spread Harinam Sankirtan worldwide - as per the prediction :)

And being senapatis they apparantly were very open about the teachings :)

praNAm

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: :cool1: Is this the Saiva forum, the Vaishnava forum, or the ISKCON forum?

Aum Namasivaya

[PARAM]

Brahma Vishnu Shiv trio are equal and anyone who disrespect even one can not achieve the Truth.

Check

Parshuram was the incarnation of Vishnu, but he was a Shaiv, a Devotee of Shiva who get everything from Shiva.

Hanuman was the incarnation of Shiva, but he was a Vaishnav, a devotee of Ram the another incarnation of Vishnu, and Hanuman use his Shaiv Powers to serve Ram.

Anyone who disrespect one among them, automatically disrespect another.


Is this the Saiva forum, the Vaishnava forum, or the ISKCON forum?

This is a Pro Shiva forum but not anti Vaishnav
हर हर महादेव
जय श्री राम

[Harinama]

Because they are the organization whose leader was Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's predicted senapati bhakta - who would help spread Harinam Sankirtan worldwide - as per the prediction :)

And being senapatis they apparantly were very open about the teachings :)

praNAm


I am not sure about ISKCON, because I believe in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and I am from SCS Math (Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math), not from ISKCON. I follow the teachings propagated by our parama-guru, Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

That being said, continue on with the conversation! :P

[Harinama]

Personally I regard Shiva and Vishnu as being two different forms of the same supreme being, but this debate has gone on for thousands of years, and I see no resolve to it any time soon. Many Vaishnavas regard Shiva as Vishnu's greastest devotee,many Shaivas regard Vishnu as Shiva's greatest devotee, and Advaitans see the two as being one. We should learn to tolerate and accept these different views as having their own place in the Hindu tradition.

Om Namah Shivaya
Om Namo Narayana

HAH! Over my dead body!!

And my reincarnated ones too! XD

Vaishnava Dharma will always be my Dharma, in this life in the next, and no one can take that away from me! :p

[jaswant]

HARI-BOL !!

Very nicely put Baobobtree-ji !

I wish there could be HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

JAYDEV

[Divine Kala]

HARI-BOL !!

Very nicely put Baobobtree-ji !

I wish there could be HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

JAYDEV

Don't we all wish for that? It breaks my heart every time people start tossing around slurs about how other people worship.

Vaishnava Dharma is beautiful but so is Shaiva Dharma and Shakta Dharma, all in their own unique ways.

[Eastern Mind]

Don't we all wish for that? It breaks my heart every time people start tossing around slurs about how other people worship.

Vaishnava Dharma is beautiful but so is Shaiva Dharma and Shakta Dharma, all in their own unique ways.

Vannakkam Divine Kala et al: In today's age of pointing out differences, it is definitely a challenge, yet a worthy goal.

One of the contributing factors is just being used to a particular way, and not knowing of other ways or religions within Sanatana Dharma. Its a natural outcome to be loyal to that which you are familiar with. We all have an affinity for our own culture, whether it be aboriginal, Spanish, Korean, or Bengali. Its natural to feel comfort within one's learned field.

On the other hand, exploration and exposure to other things and ways leads to more harmony. Still another challenge is to not mix it all up too much, so there is nothing left. Imagine a wonderful feast of various curries, and other favorite foods. What happens if we place them all: sweets, sours, spicy ones, etc. and mix them in one large cauldron. We come up with this huge gooey mess, not appetizing at all.

I think it helps to forget where you came from for a moment when dealing with faiths within Hinduism outside your own. Nothing annoys other's more than the guy who needs to compare everything to his home. "Oh yes that is a nice mountain, but back in my country, there is this more beautiful mountain."

Its a challenge we all can arise to with some effort. Appreciation is a different concept than taking ownership of.

Aum Namasivaya

[Baobobtree]

Namaste Harinama


Vaishnava Dharma will always be my Dharma, in this life in the next, and no one can take that away from me! I am not asking you to givie up Vaishnava Dharma, just to respect the dharma of Shaivas, Shaktas, Advaitans etc. while simultaneously practicing one's own unique religion.

Om Namah Shivaya
Om Namo Narayana

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: It (believing one will be reborn into the same sampradaya) does beg an interesting question. To what degree are we actually able to control this? Since it is the soul that reincarnates, does the soul continue with the same awareness it has in this body now? Would the law of karma see to it that a basher of other religions gets born into those very same religions just because of the karma he/she has created?

I often think that chauvinist men are quite likely destined to be women in their next lives.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam EM
I have resisted the urge to enter this controversial thread so far, my views are well known, i hope. the question you ask below i could answer if i may from Gita perspective.


Vannakkam: It (believing one will be reborn into the same sampradaya) does beg an interesting question. To what degree are we actually able to control this? Since it is the soul that reincarnates, does the soul continue with the same awareness it has in this body now? Would the law of karma see to it that a basher of other religions gets born into those very same religions just because of the karma he/she has created?

I often think that chauvinist men are quite likely destined to be women in their next lives.

Aum Namasivaya

gahana karmano gatih 4.17

the workings of karma are difficult to ascertain, having said that, Bhgvan Krishna further says in chapter 8 and i quote

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya
sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.8.6

Remembering whatever object one leaves the body at the end of life, one attains that object, O Arjuna, because of the constant thought of that object (one remembers that object at the end of life and achieves it). (8.06)

my understanding on above is that we would remember at the time off death, only those thing that we hold dear all our life, our desires and karma will take us to the next destination.
Karma results are not in our hand, we will get what we deserve.

As you state and i agree,it's highly likely we get a women body only to learn our lesson, life is a great leveler.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam GP: That makes perfect sense. The question, then, becomes one of having the correct amount of will and actual programming to be thinking the right thoughts upon the death bed. Methinks it is quite like the situation of not really knowing what how one may react to a situation until we are actually in it. "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." By inference there are those who run away.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

To what degree are we actually able to control this?

zero (0)


praṇām

[Eastern Mind]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


zero (0)


praṇām

Vannakkam Yajvan: I'm not convinced. I remember a time in my youth when I actually thought I was about to die. I (instinctively) started chanting Aum. I think if we are given the opportunity to die in peace, we can well prepare our minds to some degree. As for what will we become next lifetime, karma will help to decide. there is no escaping that.

I also know my childrens' past lives, and it seemed to me they had intention. My friend who became my son even intuitively knew he was going to die, despite it being an horrific accident. he also tested my suitability for parenthood a few weeks prior to passing through. So there is some degree of control. Its not just pot-luck from the astral.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Yajvan


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


zero (0)


praṇām

I am wondering why you say this, perhaps you can elaborate bit more.

there are few examples in our history, where some great personalities have been able to change the course off their destiny, i will for the time being just mention one, Amba she vowed to take revenge of insult she felt off Bhisma.

Jai Shree Krishna

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



I am wondering why you say this, perhaps you can elaborate bit more.

I am happy you ask. There are several reasons I say this...
Yet let's review the question I believe I am answering:

Vaishnava Dharma will always be my Dharma, in this life in the next, and no one can take that away from me!
This life is one point on a line of eternity - we go along this line ( some like to call it a spiral in 3 dimensions, and I am okay with that too). Now for this incarnation we are this personality. Yet what goes from one incarnation to another. Surely it is not yajvan. But who then?

If we look to the the praśna upaniṣad (2.7) it gives us the insight of who comes and goes: Oh,prāṇa as prajāpati you move within the wombs; you yourself are born repeatedly. These creatures in each of whom you dwell along with prāṇas brings offerings to you.

Note in this verse the praśna upaniṣad informs us prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman. Now the point I relish is prāṇa =prajāpati = brahman = 'I'. Pure I = pure consciousness = cetana.
Hence when people come and go from birth-to-birth they say 'I' go from birth-to-birth. For those in the mist of life, this 'I' has been associated with a personality of finite-ness, of limits. One thinks I pack my bag ( ego and the like) and I move from place to place. Yet we must ask : as we go from body to body, who is coming and going?

For those reading this ask, yajvan, you say isn't prāṇa life-breath, life energy ? I say yes, yet in the upaniṣads and confirmed in the brahma-sūtra-s prāṇa has a ~ higher value ~ of brahman.

Now that said, kṛṣṇa-ji informs us …unfathomable is the course of action (bhāgavad gītā 4.17). To say with any certainty what will occur tomorrow let alone a future incarnation is difficult at best. There is no doubt the muni that can see far and wide and can view a future state. For us to suggest we know this IMHO is wishful thinking ... I hope in a future incarnation I will take on ____________( fill in the blank ).

Yet who are the 'you' we are referring to ? It all ends-up with who we think we are. And if we think we're this personality and a behavior, then we have missed our universal status.

praṇām

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam yajvan

Thank you for your detailed answer, I am broadly in agreement with you. Still I am not fully satisfied that we have no control over our destination.

Understanding who we are is very important, this we may view differently, depending on from what school of thought, we view it from.

But that should not stop us from trying to understand this complex working off karma, unfathomable is the course of action (bhāgavad gītā 4.17) that’s the pickle, if you don’t mind me using your phrase, we are bound by thousands off desires and hate.

As to who we are Bhagvan Krishna says this;

mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati


The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.(15.07)

That coming and going off the soul, is tainted with so many desires and hate, and it is so intertwined, not just off this life time, that it would be difficult for us jivas to ascertain with any clarity what lies ahead, let alone what future birth we may take. So it is true as you state “To say with any certainty what will occur tomorrow let alone a future incarnation is difficult at best. ------- For us to suggest we know this IMHO is wishful thinking ... I hope in a future incarnation I will take on ____________( fill in the blank ).”

that said, it is us who carve our destiny. As again the Lord state;

sariram yad avapnoti
yac capy utkramatisvarah
grhitvaitani samyati
vayur gandhan avadavat

The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another as the air carries aromas. (15.08)

At the time of death, the consciousness he has created will carry him on to the next type of body


In our state of ignorance, we would not know for sure, where and how our future birth would be, that is for sure but the example I gave off Amba which I like to come back to, here her determination to avenge the insult she felt was so strong, she made it her only goal and desire, she sought all help but in vain, eventually she took birth in panchal desh and rest is history.

I like to think, our destiny is in our hand why else Bhagvan say to us in Gita 15.04 A goal should be sought from which there is no return.

But I do understand when you say Zero (0), to EM question, To what degree are we actually able to control this.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ekoham]

Pranam Yajvanji and Ganeshprasadji,

Though the OP is not about what we become after death, yet I would like to add to your comments, from the advaitin pov I agree to Yajvanji's POV "as we go from body to body, who is coming and going?" but it fits only to a self-realized soul for whom there is no coming and going.

But I absolutely have no doubt whatsoever to what is quoted from Bhagvad Gita by Ganeshprasadji,
"At the time of death, the consciousness he has created will carry him on to the next type of body"

The whole purpose of chanting lords name all the time has only one purpose and that is at the last moment of one's life one thinks only of the Lord.

As for the original post which went on creating rift between shaivaites and vaishnavaites, as Lord has said himself--- one who sees them different sees nothing but one who sees them one sees the Truth.

Divine Kala, this is for you.....,
When I was young, I used to be lost in various Puranas and had my own favorites. I too felt bad when someone made fun of my beliefs... but over the period as I grew spiritually under his grace and understood the Lord, I said to myself- Is my god so Ordinary or is my faith so weak/fragile that any Tom- Dick and Harry can come belittle (make fun of) my lord, my ways of worship or shaken my faith-- NO! I said to myself, my lord is above all, he is the supreme, Omnipotent, Omnipresent.....and my faith is not going to be shaken up because someone doesn't appreciate my belief.
After all god is where the faith is.
Take it as a test of your Bhakti (Devotion), smile at their narrow mindedness and forgive them wholeheartedly.


Pranam

Ekoham

[smaranam]

When I was young, I used to be lost in various Puranas and had my own favorites. I too felt bad when someone made fun of my beliefs... but over the period as I grew spiritually under his grace and understood the Lord, I said to myself- Is my god so Ordinary or is my faith so weak/fragile that any Tom- Dick and Harry can come belittle (make fun of) my lord, my ways of worship or shaken my faith-- NO! I said to myself, my lord is above all, he is the supreme, Omnipotent, Omnipresent.....and my faith is not going to be shaken up because someone doesn't appreciate my belief.
After all god is where the faith is.
Take it as a test of your Bhakti (Devotion), smile at their narrow mindedness and forgive them wholeheartedly.

Namaste Ekoham

If this is just to give an example for strength in faith, it is OK, but do you see that this quote above is trying to draw a parallel with something that does not exist on this thread ? What you were facing is probably atheistic people who do not believe in our purANs, mUrtis, puja, rituals etc. I know there are many (Indians included) who laugh. That is different.

Neither Divine Kala herself, nor anyone else, is suggesting that someone made fun of her Ishta Devta. Is revering Shiv Shankar as the highest VaishNav making fun ?
Those who talked to her about it were perhaps her earlier associates, well-meaning from their POV, and were not aware of how deeply she is into the other path. My guess.

This is how messages and their meanings get distorted, in this illusory sansAr.

The most accurate answer to the OP can be found in post #2 by BoaBobTree - who happens to be a Shaiva. All other posts were unnecessary - except for the later ones about transmigration.

And look at this statement (not yours Ekoham):

So it's quite easy, I believe, for a Shaiva to worship Visnu as their Ishta Devata but much more difficult for a Vaishnava to do likewise (my personal belief).

Why ? Why the coercion ? If the Murlidhar Lord is Shankha-chakra-gadhAdhar and also wants to reach us as trishul-damru-dhar, obviously there is a reason ? If They want to be two why mix them ? TadAtmiktA (intimate oneness in spirit) does not say anything about Them being two different entities or an expansion.

Also, many Shaivas of today are not the original Shaivas - see post #10 on this thread for a reality check. A traditional Shaiva will not consider VishNu as Ishta DevtA.

The two paths are different. The scenery is different. The experiences are different.

What you are seeing / observing today are either smArta, modernized Shaivas influenced by AdiShankara, or followers of Keval Advaita (absolute monism of Shankara) who do not really care either way.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

[Ekoham]

Namaste Ekoham

If this is just to give an example for strength in faith, it is OK, but do you see that this quote above is trying to draw a parallel with something that does not exist on this thread ? What you were facing is probably atheistic people who do not believe in our purANs, mUrtis, puja, rituals etc. I know there are many (Indians included) who laugh. That is different.

Neither Divine Kala herself, nor anyone else, is suggesting that someone made fun of her Ishta Devta. Is revering Shiv Shankar as the highest VaishNav making fun ?
Those who talked to her about it were perhaps her earlier associates, well-meaning from their POV, and were not aware of how deeply she is into the other path. My guess.

This is how messages and their meanings get distorted, in this illusory sansAr..........................
~

Namaste Smaranam,

If I have faltered then let me offer my sincere apology to the great soul of yours. (which, in fact is nothing, but the expansion of my soul/ MY TRUE-SELF).

Pranam

Ekoham (Dvitiyo Naasti)

[smaranam]

Namaste Smaranam,

If I have faltered then let me offer my sincere apology to the great soul of yours. (which, in fact is nothing, but the expansion of my soul/ MY TRUE-SELF).

Pranam

Ekoham (Dvitiyo Naasti)

Please don't apologize dear Ekoham. I do know that you were only giving Divine Kala a moral boost, and that was very nice of you.

I am sorry for not conveying correctly, but the purpose was to steer the topic so that future readers will not get the impression that other sects make fun of a deva for instance. It can happen to a reader just passing by, it is quite human.

My post was not structured correctly, sorry. As for "great soul" , the greatness lies with paramAtmA and perhaps inherited by being an expansion of your soul :)

praNAm