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Friend from the West
23 May 2011, 10:59 PM
Hello and namaste,
I was wondering what the thoughts were concerning participants in Mixed Martial Arts?
Included with this question is the training of them only compared to the participation and viewing of them in a atmosphere that may include robust language. Thoughts on if for sport or if the discipline is pursued for purpose of the protection of people. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Rich

Sahasranama
24 May 2011, 06:57 AM
I have trained some kickboxing, mma and kung fu. I have a lot of respect and admiration for martial arts training, but I have stopped doing it for a few reasons.

It's all a big joke in my opinion. If something really dangerous happens, you often cannot use these skills. You can even make the situation worse trying to fight. Some martial arts are nice to watch in the movies, but in real life you are better of trying to avoid fights. You can even go to jail if you happen to be a better fighter than your opponent. If you really are concerned about safety, maybe something like traditional Jiu Jitsu or Krav Maga could be helpful. MMA and kickboxing are ring sports and often useless outside the ring. Of course, someone who is in better physical shape has a much better change of winning any fight. There was a video of Arnold Schwarznegger stepping in a boxing match that escalated and he was totally in control of the professional boxer. Taekwando and Kung Fu as taught in the west are also big jokes in my opinion, maybe if you go to China you can find a place to learn real Kung Fu.

I also do not consider it my svadharma to train martial arts. If I were in law enforcement, training martial arts could greatly benefit performing my dharma. But I am not, so I am not going to put in hundreds of hours learning skills I am never going to use. Also, I was kidding myself that I was training martial arts for health. This is also a big joke, because it's easy to get hurt during sparring. People have lost their teeth, broken their backs, knees and necks, just from sparring with a partner. There are others ways to stay healthy and in shape.

I do not want to bash on martial arts. I still have a lot of respect for martial arts training. Personally, I have decided that it is not worth my time to train MMA, kickboxing, boxing or kung fu. If I ever do martial arts again, it's probably something like cardio kickboxing (for general fitness) or traditional Jiu Jitsu (for self defence). You'll have to decide for yourself.

Just to let you know, the founder of the dvaita school of thought, Madhvacharya was also a wrestler and a weightlifter. It shows that martial arts training is not totally incompatible with a spiritual/ religious lifestyle. India also has its fair share of martial arts which are unfortunately not taught in the west: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_martial_arts

Eastern Mind
24 May 2011, 07:35 AM
Vannakkam: I remember back in the late 80s when wrestling was at it's peak, and the subsequent quelling of violence we teachers had to do practically on a daily basis because of it. We teachers saw the negative influence more than most.

I find the portrayal of loving sexuality on television far less offensive than violence, but the TV execs who are mostly Abrahamics, don't.

The Abrahamics see violence as okay, certainly there is no real concept like the ahimsa in Hinduism. So I see it (as portrayed in the west today) mostly as an extension of Abrahamic (Who cares about the other guy?) thinking.

Of course real martial arts from an Asiatic perspective is about self-defense, inner physical training, and lots of worthy ideas. But when power is put into the wrong hands (those who are not spiritually ready) then we see these deplorable outcomes like MMA today.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
24 May 2011, 08:59 AM
In my opinion, if you are going to do martial arts, you'll have to do it from a female perspective. Women make better decisions when it comes to martial arts training. Men in general are often driven by their ego and want to act macho. (not always true though)

Water
24 May 2011, 12:11 PM
Having been Law Enforcement and exposed to many different arts when I was young, I have to say.....

Almost all U.S. "MMA" is a joke. It is nothing but aggression and contest. Nearly none of the techniques in the primary focus of today's students have anything to do with ending a fight or protection. :(

If you have the opportunity to participate in Aikido or a good Tai Chi (the fighting art - not the breathing art it's usually presented as in the West) I would definitely suggest you try it.

Aikido, especially, is very beautiful. It isn't very popular as there aren't equivalents to "sparring" or competitions. The levels of respect and understanding are unparalleled in any other fighting art - and it's resolution to most situations result in avoiding serious injury to either party.

Tai Chi is more of an internal focus with external impact.

Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are a lot of fun, but often techniques that result in serious injury are the focus in addition to aggressive competition. If this is your interest, I suggest going to Aikido.

Capoeira is fun if you can find a group that is not interested in "fighting" but rather playing, overcoming challenge and exercise.

Western influenced Tae Kwon Do will probably not help you protect anyone and is quite impractical. Teachings usually include aggressive competition and "showy" exhibitions.

In my opinion, many of the arts aren't really "compatible" with Western bodies - most westerners are already pre-disposed to lower back and knee injuries. Muscle and ligament tears are common because of Western sitting habits and static exercises.

Friend from the West
24 May 2011, 06:17 PM
Namaste and thanks for the responses so far. Awhile back Pietro shared some things that offered insight regarding these issues. In considering things further had the questions I posted. Definetly agree with comment regarding Aikido and at least pertaining to me, Western bodies (LOL).
If duty is to protect, continuing with boxing and kick boxing and some forms of martial arts such as Bando and Aikido (really compatible huh?) could be justified to some due to duty and being pure in mind about it. But if doing this, one interacts with others and assists them who may have different agendas and who participate in boxing and kickboxing matches (ring girls, cursing, sometimes alcohol, brain damage for sport) or MMA matches (ring girls, cursing, and brutality permitted by slow referees, etc.) would one who is participating for duty be complicit? These are issues now that exist with changing point of worldview.
I apologize if not articulating well and please do not hesitate to correct me on how I am seeing issues. I will learn from the responses.
Thanks.

Water
25 May 2011, 04:47 PM
Aikido works great for Western bodies - many of the stretches are dynamic, posture and breathing are key, etc, etc. :)

Bando is actually not a very good comparison to Aikido...

While Bando is considered a "defensive art," the defense comes in the offense. Techniques involve strikes intended to severely injure. The result of using Bando is that someone is likely to be left severely injured. :(

Aikido intent is to break the line of attack, reduce the power of an attack, set the opponent off balance and even restrain peacefully. It is a solution of compassion. :)

I'm a little confused on the final point - are you asking if that by participating in the training or association of individuals that intend to fight and injure (rather than protect) then by proxy the dutiful individual is accepting the karma of the aggressive fighters?

There are many teachers that I have met over the years that will simply refuse students that they believe are looking for leverage to injure or intimidate people. In that aspect, then yes, I think they are avoiding the karma by association.

Friend from the West
25 May 2011, 06:33 PM
Greetings Water and namaste. Thanks for taking this issue on. Threw out first part of issue to see what could learn. At peace with this after some dialogue with Pietro on another thread awhile back. Took some time off the forum and devoted self more to puja and dharana and studies. With this came whole host of things never considered before. Do not regret this at all. Seems like just part of the learning and growing.
You have my second issue down very close. You understood well considering how I articulated the issue. As an aside, I was being facetious regarding participation with Aikido and Bando being compatible at face value. Sorry about that.

At best as I can couch this: From a SD perspective, can my training and assisting others in activities that include preparaton to do physical harm for sport (very nice people. In 30 years bullies do not last where I go) in venues that are not wholesome, adversely impact them? Meaning if I'm straight in my agenda, can I still cause harm to others by helping them? Can my behavior in anyway assist them in moving further away from their life purpose of moksha?
Thanks very much.
Rich

Sahasranama
26 May 2011, 08:43 PM
Boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, greco-roman wrestling and mma are not really martial arts, but sports. These sports are great for in the ring, but have a lot of flaws when used in real combat. Tai Chi is not effective at all in a street situation, it's more a form of meditation. Kung Fu and Taekwando are all flashy moves, great for fight choreography in movies. Capoeira is more a form dance, not a real martial art either. The best (non weapon) martial arts that are taught in the west are, traditional Japanese Jujitsu and Muay Thai. If you are serious about doing "martial arts" and not just something for sports, meditation, fitness, these are the ones you should look at.

I have practiced different martial arts the past few years, I have not commited myself to any so far. If I look at the martial arts from India, I wish they were taught in the west. They are far superior than the nonsense that is taught in many dojos. Indian martial artists have superior strength and agility, for example look at the mallakamba (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5206578/indian_pole_gymnastics/) used by the Indian wrestlers or at the people practicing kalari payattu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YmA46x7Xok).

Rudra Sadhaka
03 July 2011, 09:47 PM
Namaste,

I've trained Jiu-jitsu and wrestling but since my Diksha on my focus is in my Sadhana. It's not to say that wrestling doesn't get my interest anymore but it is not a priority.

I may say wrestling was a part of the way divinity used to manifest itself through my body in the past but now sadhana has shown it's a more accurate way.

Rudra sadhaka

R Gitananda
11 November 2011, 01:08 AM
Namaste

Visit a Kung Fu San Soo kwoon if you get a chance, they focus on combat only. Also the Israelis have a martial art which does the same thing.

Aum Shanti



Boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, greco-roman wrestling and mma are not really martial arts, but sports. These sports are great for in the ring, but have a lot of flaws when used in real combat. Tai Chi is not effective at all in a street situation, it's more a form of meditation. Kung Fu and Taekwando are all flashy moves, great for fight choreography in movies. Capoeira is more a form dance, not a real martial art either. The best (non weapon) martial arts that are taught in the west are, traditional Japanese Jujitsu and Muay Thai. If you are serious about doing "martial arts" and not just something for sports, meditation, fitness, these are the ones you should look at.

I have practiced different martial arts the past few years, I have not commited myself to any so far. If I look at the martial arts from India, I wish they were taught in the west. They are far superior than the nonsense that is taught in many dojos. Indian martial artists have superior strength and agility, for example look at the mallakamba (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5206578/indian_pole_gymnastics/) used by the Indian wrestlers or at the people practicing kalari payattu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YmA46x7Xok).

Visvamitra
12 April 2012, 12:04 AM
I think MMA is exciting to watch. Now some people may call it b.s. but the reason there are rules in the sport is to avoid serious injury. Training in it does help one to defend oneself. In MMA competition, biting, eye gouging, kneeing a downed opponent in the like are not allowed but the fighters know how to do these things they just cannot do them in the ring. You can see these people know how to maim body parts and the like and sometimes this does happen because even though there are rules to protect the participants you can still get hurt. Look at what Rhonda Rousey did to Meisha Tate. She destroyed her arm.

There used to be less rules in the UFC and no weight classes. The bigger man did not always win. UFC 1,2, and 4 were won by Royce Gracie. In UFC 4 he beat a man who weight almost 100 pounds more than him in the final. They used to fight multiple fights in one day then. However, sometimes the rules are broken and you see people do illegal things that are not allowed in the ring but which they know how to do and are useful in a fight.

Sometimes fights come down to matches and sometimes they go either way. There are plenty of street fights where MMA training can EASILY come in handy and save your neck. I've known guys who were trained fighters who competed in tournaments with rules, but knew how to fight without rules in the streets. Guys who were into Shotokan for instance would break kneecaps in the streets. Catchwrestling is a useful skill as many fights do tend to end up in some sort of clench. All that groundfighting can't be useful in a real fight in the streets. Yes it can. I've seen people who were not trained fighters end up on the ground numerous times and how much could a ground game have come in handy then? Although if you're about to get jumped groundfighting will not do and you're probably better off running away if you can. Although trained fighters may take on more than one opponent and it'll take more than Judo, or any other grappling art to deal with that. Bruce Lee wrote a book called The Tao of Jeet Kune Do. His work helped influence moderm mixed martial arts. Give it a read. Look at what you see in the sport and check out a fight in your neighborhood sometime and see if the fighters of MMA are all about nonsense.

Some people tend to adapt what they have learned as fighters to sports participation in the body of the rules. Some people have come from other sports and made their way over to MMA. You will see people from college programs like wrestling or even Olympians become MMA fighters. So where there are rules in MMA there are none for you trying to protect your life. There are some martial arts from europe which involve alot of weapons training, swords, pikes, daggers, and the like. They're known as European Martial Arts. It also includes boxing and wrestling but there is alot of weapons training. However, you'd probably be bettr off with a gun.

mradam83
04 June 2012, 03:32 PM
Namaste.

I've personally never been a big fan of MMA - I'm not saying its bad or anything of the sort but the thing that puts me off is a lot of the practitioners. They always tend to think they're an instant expert on fighting and bash the traditional martial arts without mercy (My art's better than your art mentality).

After trying a good few over the years, I have settled On Capoeira. I highly recommend it as its not strictly about harming your opponent but about expression and "playing a good game." Primarily it is best for fitness as you do a lot of cartwheels, handstands and high kicking which would theoretically make one even better at Yoga. Of course, being a martial art it does improve your ability to defend yourself, but in such a way that you NEVER ever are supposed. To permanently harm or damage your opponent.

Thank you.

Khadgar
06 August 2013, 02:49 PM
The following are designed for competitions, not combat:
MMA, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, Judo, etc.

The following are DESIGNED for combat and WILL be effective in real world situations:
Muay Boran, Sanda, Krav Maga


The following are for show and not designed for combat or competitions, but rather just an art form for relaxation:
Tai Chi, Capoeira, Kalaripayattu


I've got 7 years of Muay Thai training and 7 years of Sanda training as well as some Tai Chi training.

Sanda is free form Kung Fu and used by the Chinese military. It's a combination of Kung Fu joint manipulations, take downs along with the most effective strikes from Muay Thai as well as successful takedown, grapple and submission maneuvers from Jiu Jitsu. It's a well rounded combat style. In my opinion, Sanda is your best bet. And remember, Kung Fu originated in India. ;)

P.S., I'm Hindu.

Friend from the West
10 August 2013, 10:07 PM
Namaste

Thanks to all who posted responses on this thread. Posted this thread when was just beginning with first forum and social networking. My apologies in that even with a few qualifying posts, still did poor job of...qualifying. On one level say that have been involved in martial arts since pre-teen. To martial art, with for always, Maung Gyi, who several years ago, retired for pure spiritual pursuit in his later years. Bando, which due to Maung GyiJi"s location has significant presence near where have lived, as well as D.C. and Maryland in the states.

The intent of the poorly stated question was answered most excellently by Sahasranama, in his original response, via third paragraph. Sorry for the confusion.

Om Namah Shivaya

FFTW

Anima Deorum
11 August 2013, 01:17 PM
Namaste,

These are interesting thoughts. I have been a professional wrestling fan my whole life and an avid MMA fan since its inception in the mid ‘90s. I was on our school’s wrestling team and did some Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training in graduate school. As you may know, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu focuses on grappling and holds, with an aim of being able to quickly subdue your opponent in one-on-one, unarmed combat. The result is a variety of devastating “submissions,” or holds with which you can maim or kill an unskilled opponent in very little time.

I’m not sure I would consider MMA deplorable, but my thoughts on it have been changing recently. Specifically, I sense a great deal of distress from MMA and wrestling, which has affected my ability to enjoy them. This distress is felt by me and by the athletes as well. But my own changing sensitivities account for this perception.

Neither sport is in line with ahimsa. MMA is likely the most ruthless contact sport in U.S. history. Wrestling has turned more and more depraved since the ‘80s: not in terms of displayed sexuality or explicit violence, but in terms of the minds of the characters portrayed. The villains are most telling in both sports. For someone trying to practice non-injury as a physical, mental, and spiritual attitude, such programs are devastating. They also harm the psyche of the children who are exposed to it. But what in our precious Occident doesn’t, these days? All the while the parents are too confused and judgmental of others to admit the damage they themselves are doing.

Within the proper spiritual context, though, such as a form of constructive narrative, wrestling can be great. I have heard of “Christian wrestling.” Setting aside the “social” and “ethical” (dharmic) issues of coercive indoctrination, wrestling shows could be a fun and exciting way to employ talented performers in a live setting, and to instruct and reinforce the positive aspects of people’s spiritual practices. It can be a family outing of fun and celebration of faith. I’m reminded of Dara Singh, an Indian wrestler, in “Mahabharat” (1965). His role was as Bhima, and there was a fun scene where he was wrestling Bakasura in the forest. He used his physical skills to bring the story to life. A similar yet reverent narrative could make a fun and positive live show.

As a personal matter, I consider MMA and martial arts practice entirely too dangerous to indulge. Knowing how to maim or kill an average person quickly and without weapons is a very bad idea for me. I scarcely trust myself with the little knowledge I have, let alone advanced training. Even a little training can be used to devastate others, especially when the imbalanced understanding is given time to burgeon in creative minds. Take Jon Jones as an example: He walked into the light heavyweight division and cleaned house as a 21-year-old. And he will be on top of the world’s best for a long time. I can’t purport to know his frame of mind in a spiritual way, but the fact that he recently was drunk and ran his Bentley into a pole at 4am may be telling.


There are appropriate martial arts. I have a close friend from college who went to China to study Yin style Bagua, a form of Kung Fu. Apparently, it has a useful philosophy and teaches about prana (chi) as well. He has lived there for years.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Pranam.

Friend from the West
11 August 2013, 09:38 PM
Hari Om

Namaste

Posted originally for response received as it related to Hinduism. To martial arts for martial arts conversation sake.

First, here is very short video of Dr. GyiJi from back in the day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkxxBICPWf0

He is probably no more then 150 at most and his opponent is probably good 30 pounds more and good bit younger even back then. Dr. GyiJi taught straight boxing and kickboxing as way of getting people in front of audience with nerves and all, as to show way of just form exercises with no real time test was folly. Do not know what is on web about Bando, nor care, but in reality as taught by master is quite eclectic and and tasking. There was no room for teachings beyond boxing and kickboxing to be turned into a sport. No way. Bando can accommodate teachings for those who could only use the least amount of force necessary to defend others and to protect, due to profession, due to dharma, or accommodate for whatever was required.

Back to Hinduism. Always thought Dr. GyiJi was Mahayana Buddhist but not for sure certain. He had much knowledge of Hinduism. As said in previous post he is now full time on spiritual and eschews all forms of violence.

Back to Martial Arts discussion: Think MMA, etc., is sign of what age we are in.

Om NamahShivaya

FFTW

Friend from the West
11 August 2013, 09:38 PM
Hari Om

Namaste

Posted originally for response received as it related to Hinduism. To martial arts for martial arts conversation sake.

First, here is very short video of Dr. GyiJi from back in the day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkxxBICPWf0

He is probably no more then 150 at most and his opponent is probably good 30 pounds more and good bit younger even back then. Dr. GyiJi taught straight boxing and kickboxing as way of getting people in front of audience with nerves and all, as to show way of just form exercises with no real time test was folly. Do not know what is on web about Bando nor care but in reality as taught by master was quite eclectic and violent and tasking.

Back to Hinduism. Always thought Dr. GyiJi was Mahayana Buddhist but not for sure certain. He had much knowledge of Hinduism. As said in previous post he is now full time on spiritual and eschews all forms of violence.

R Gitananda
18 August 2013, 02:45 AM
Namaste

As a training discipline I think that MMA has a lot to offer (physical fitness, self defense and greater self confidence) however as a sport I find it kind of distasteful to see 'sound minded' adults willing to risk permanent brain damage for the chance to inflict it upon their opponent! This is especially true when it comes to women. http://youtu.be/KFKrX7BYy_Y (http://youtu.be/KFKrX7BYy_Y)

Aum Shanti