PDA

View Full Version : Meat eating bad karma?



Rudy
28 May 2011, 06:13 PM
I was wondering is eating meat bad karma? What about eggs? I currently eat meat.

Thought I should know.

Eastern Mind
28 May 2011, 06:21 PM
I was wondering is eating meat bad karma? What about eggs? I currently eat meat.

Thought I should know.

Vannakkam Rudy: Lets put it this way ... if I thought it was good karma, I'd be going out tonight to gorge at the local steakhouse. I suggest you browse the huge vegetarian discussion here on HDF.

So, yes its karma. All action is karma.
:)
Aum Namasivaya

TheOne
28 May 2011, 07:24 PM
Putting meat into your mouth is not bad Karma. Especially if one needs to do it to survive. But few "need" meat to survive in modern times. The karma which arises is because we condone an industry based on the exploitation of a species which causes, environmental, health, and genetic destruction to both the species which one eats, and the species which consumes.

As for eggs, I try to convince myself it's alright because I'm eating the natural byproduct of chickens and there is no potential for life one that menstrual egg is layed.

But, the meat companies as I stated before pump the chickens full of hormones to increase production, which karmically interweaves both the chicken and the human pumping them with hormones and the human eating the egg.


I'm not one to say which is a "better" act to do. Eat meat or eggs, but all I can say is that each produces its own set of karmic arisings. Some of which can definitely be prevented by purchasing "free range" products.

Eastern Mind
28 May 2011, 07:49 PM
Vannakkam: Each entitled to their opinion. In my opinion, meat eating is karma that takes one away from the goal.

in a quick search, I found this nice new pro - vegetarian site. 30 good reasons.. see #21. http://www.the-green-diva.com/2010/04/30-reasons-not-to-eat-meat/

Again, its just my opinion.

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
29 May 2011, 06:55 AM
Pranam all

Everything we do has Karma implications, karma is off three type Satvik, Rajsik and tamasik, similarly food we eat, are off three modes.
We have to decide for our selves, guided by Shastra preferably, what type of food we are eating.
Meat can not be obtained without causing pain and suffering, Ahimsa is universal tenant in Hindu Dharma, don’t let us fool ourselves , eating meat is Tamsik, exceptional circumstances not with standing. I hope people stop sitting on the fence and tell as is, if asked.

Jai Shree Krishna

Rudy
29 May 2011, 09:19 AM
Hello all

Looks like time to put my metaphorical back into being vegitarian. As for eggs I need to work on meat first. As they say I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Eastern Mind
29 May 2011, 10:14 AM
Hello all

Looks like time to put my metaphorical back into being vegitarian. As for eggs I need to work on meat first. As they say I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Vannakkam Rudy:

Compared to physical addictions like a prescription drug, or nicotine, getting off meat is relatively easy. There are no severe withdrawal sympoms, as the replacements are just more food. The edginess and craving one has from a nicotine withdrawal can be quite severe. Moreso with alcohol or some prescription meds.

For some people, because of the culture they were brought up in, there is strong psychological attachment. That's the general reason why some people find it tough. For these people, excuses come as easy as rain falls in the rain forest. Kind of hard to outsmart the mind, as it can play games with itself, just to entertain itself I guess.:)

Psychologically, you can do it over time, as well, just as you are implying. Best wishes in joining the vegetarian crowd.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
29 May 2011, 11:58 AM
For these people, excuses come as easy as rain falls in the rain forest.
So true!

My meat is from free range animals, so they are not suffering.
I need my protein.
Animals produce large amounts of gases which destroy the Ozone layer. So, I am doing something positive for the environment by eating meat.
I am at the top of the food chain, why should I restrict myself to the food (vegetarian) of lower species?
Scriptures don't specifically prohibit eating meat.
I eat lot less of it than before.

And EM, as you said, the list of excuses 'comes out as easy as the rain in a rain forest'.
-

Rudy
29 May 2011, 01:19 PM
Speaking of rain falling in the rain forest... I've already been trying to eat meat once a day for a while (and yes thats an improvment over my former eating habits:p ). Now I shall go up to three times a week. All I can say is it's best for me to go slow:). After a few weeks of that I shall see where to go.

Eastern Mind
29 May 2011, 01:37 PM
Speaking of rain falling in the rain forest... I've already been trying to eat meat once a day for a while (and yes thats an improvment over my former eating habits:p ). Now I shall go up to three times a week. All I can say is it's best for me to go slow:). After a few weeks of that I shall see where to go.

Vannakkam Rudy: Reminds me of my father, and my first 17 years or so on this planet. Breakfast was bacon and eggs, lunch was usually some kind of leftover from the dinner before, like a cold roast beef sandwich, and then supper/dinner was always based around some meat. So try 21 times a week, maybe more if there was a bedtime snack. :) Its really amazing, that meat culture. I've seen people at smorgs or pot lucks eat absolutely nothing BUT meat. If we believed what some of the vegetarian sites say about how bad it is, I should be dead now, just from those first 17 or 18 years. :) Somehow I find it entertaining ... like the guy at Subway in front of you who gets some kind of meatball sub on white bread, and then passes on all the vegetables.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
29 May 2011, 02:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



My meat is from free range animals, so they are not suffering.

Let me test my understanding... because they are 'free range' animals they do not suffer? Help me understand how this may occur.
thank you,

praṇām

Adhvagat
29 May 2011, 02:11 PM
My personal opinion is that Hindus should all be vegetarians. It's very important to set an example in today's society.

If in something as basic as don't killing poor animals we don't differ from the large part of society, what's the use?

But that's my view that is quite strongly based on setting an example, specially for the receptive westerners.

When I was browsing some Sikh sites I found this quote (not directly related to the subject) from the Guru Granth Sahib, which may be a little too forcefully strong but I think the point is valid:


"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"

(Ang 1103)


Animals produce large amounts of gases which destroy the Ozone layer. So, I am doing something positive for the environment by eating meat.

It would be even better if you didn't eat it, since there would be no need for the animals raised specifically to be killed for meat in the first place. I'm just pointing that this stance is logically flawed.

yajvan
29 May 2011, 02:14 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


My personal opinion is that Hindus should all be vegetarians. It's very important to set an example in today's society.

I see why you say this... yet the other view is that all that wish to pursue a spiritual life ( devoid of where they live) and if they wish to follow yoga, then meat eating is not conducive to this pursuit.

praṇām

Ganeshprasad
29 May 2011, 02:19 PM
Pranam Yajvan, PI

i think you might have misread Belivers intent, he is stating i think, the excuses the meat eater come up with.

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
29 May 2011, 02:35 PM
Pranam Yajvan, PI

i think you might have misread Belivers intent, he is stating i think, the excuses the meat eater come up with. Jai Shree Krishna


Aahha! I see your point (and Believers) and stand corrected...
thank you for the clarification.

praṇām

Adhvagat
29 May 2011, 03:00 PM
Pranam Yajvan, PI

i think you might have misread Belivers intent, he is stating i think, the excuses the meat eater come up with.

Jai Shree Krishna

Now I see... I think it lacked some quotation marks and some colons. :rolleyes:

My answer is needed though because I've seen people in their right minds using that excuse.

Eastern Mind
29 May 2011, 03:20 PM
Vannakkam: :D Aha. Another subtle reminder why we always need to read context, i.e. the whole post, the whole scripture, before we use some tidbit to debate something. We all know how the anti-Hindu forces can do just that to find fault.

Just because I write a book about an adharmic character doesn't mean I am condoning said character's behaviour.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
29 May 2011, 07:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


....before we use some tidbit to debate something. We all know how the anti-Hindu forces can do just that to find fault.


There was no 'debate' point offered but a request for clarification done in a respectful manner.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
29 May 2011, 07:26 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



There was no 'debate' point offered but a request for clarification done in a respectful manner.

praṇām



Vannakkam Yajvan: Yes, I know. I was just making horizontal transfer of the idea of not reading whole threads, or whole scriptures, and then making erroneous conclusions, much the same as the Blind men and the Elephant poem. When I see it happen to the likes of you, who is consistently clear and thorough, I can imagine the misunderstandings it may bring about in those who aren't as thorough. :)... or wise.

Aum namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
29 May 2011, 08:02 PM
Namaste,

I do not think that eating meat is bad karma. I find that there have been people discussed in the vedas that ate meat and became enlightened. Gautama Buddha also ate meat. I find that some people eat a meat diet based on high in protein, and fats, is a very healthy lifestyle. There are also studies that suggest that meat eating helped our evolution. But this is just my humble opinion.

Adhvagat
30 May 2011, 02:38 AM
An analytical view on animal suffering for foods: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/suffering-per-kg.html

Another interesting page: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html

Jainarayan
08 June 2011, 03:09 PM
There are also studies that suggest that meat eating helped our evolution.

Yes, that's the basis of the Paleo(lithic) or Caveman Diet. Our brains grew, so the scientists say, because we ate a diet high in fat. In fact, one of the first things supposedly consumed (I wasn't there :p ) was the bone marrow which is primarily fat.

Some people (like me :rolleyes: ) can't handle carbs properly (grains, rice, corn, etc.). I have Metabolic Syndrome. The only thing that gets my blood sugar and blood lipids under control, and the fat off me is a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet.

To that end, I can still eschew beef once I set my mind to it and stick with fish, eggs, olive and coconut oils, some root vegs (no carrots... too much sugar), chicken and lamb. I eat pork but you know, I'm not really wild about it. I'm not at all opposed to giving up beef.

Eastern Mind
08 June 2011, 04:52 PM
Vannakkam:

Many are the lovely flowers of worship offered to the guru, but none lovelier than non-killing. Respect for life is the highest worship, the bright lamp, the sweet garland of unwavering devotion.

Tirumantiram verse 197

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
08 June 2011, 05:20 PM
Pranam

Anyone who eats meat has scant regards for Shastra, has no Daya, meat can not be obtained without injury and pain, Ahimsa is one off the main tenants of Dharma, ignore at your own peril.

Cow is worshiped by Hindus as mother, shastra says there are six mothers and cow is one of them.

i pity anyone who indulge in such an act of eating meat, for they have not understood the laws of Karma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jainarayan
08 June 2011, 06:12 PM
i pity anyone who indulge in such an act of eating meat, for they have not understood the laws of Karma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Wow, that's pretty strong and judgmental, pitying millions of otherwise devout and good Hindus who do eat meat, fish or fowl. :eek: There are plenty of other things that invoke bad karma too. Does anyone understand them all? Does anyone know what actions override others? Does anyone know what is in someone else's heart? :headscratch: There is only One Who is sinless.

A teacher once said: "Judge not lest you be judged. For how you judge, you too shall be judged". Now that's karma too. ;)

I come from a religious background in which people make judgments on what others do or don't do. It's really not cool. One just has to follow one's own conscience and do the best they can, come what may.

Eastern Mind
08 June 2011, 06:35 PM
Vannakkam: In Hinduism, ahimsa is as basic as karma and reincarnation.

I do have my own conspiracy theories on how meat eating has become so prevalent, and most have to do with Islamic and European influence. The Mcauley based British school system forced on India during British Imperialism days extolled the virtues of meat, as well as many other non-Hindu ways. It was himsa in more ways than one. It was also a very divisive ploy ... divide and conquer. We need those Hindus fighting amongst themselves, and if we can turn son against Mother by turning him onto meat, that that's what we should do.

One of the saddest things about the meat devouring Hindus I know is their overwhelming guilt. They can't go to a temple on the days they don't eat meat, and they're incredibly embarrassed if someone like myself happens to drop by their home on some errand. They can't volunteer even. Their own guilt keeps them away. I know many of my Tamil friends partake in flesh, but I very very rarely see them. I don't get invited to barbecues. The guilt drips off their auras just like the grease drips from their jowls. Why guilt? Its because in their hearts they know better!

They are just like the tobacco addict. What smoker doesn't know he should give it up? Very very few. But smoking is different. Its a true addiction. Meat isn't.

Show me a temple where meat is a prasadam.

But, just as I tolerate a child who misbehaves, an abortionist who doesn't know better, an adulterer who slipped in a moment of below the muladhara chakra time, so too do I tolerate the carnivore amongst us.

But respect? the way I respect the priests, and the way I respect the ones who have changed? Nope, respect is different than tolerance.

Sorry for the rant. I happen to take some pride in practising ahimsa to the best of my ability.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
08 June 2011, 07:04 PM
One of the saddest things about the meat devouring Hindus I know is their overwhelming guilt. They can't go to a temple on the days they don't [do?] eat meat ...

Why guilt? Its because in their hearts they know better!

I don't doubt or dispute that in the least. I do plenty of things I feel guilty for. It's something I have to come to terms with to eliminate from my life. When I've said or done something I shouldn't, I find it hard to look my idols and pictures in the face.


Sorry for the rant. I happen to take some pride in practising ahimsa to the best of my ability.

Aum Namasivaya

That's my point exactly... "the best of my ability". My goal is to get as close to ahimsa as possible, or as the doctor's creed says in Latin "primum non nocere": "first do no harm".

My co-worker asked me today if I've become vegetarian. I said no, but the thought has crossed my mind for a very long time, even before coming to Sanatana Dharma. It was pretty much for the reason of ahimsa. And I am going to make a concerted effort. He said it's not easy to do, especially overnight.

I apologize too for getting on a soapbox, but again, having come from something very judgmental, I'm a bit sensitive (not personally offended, sensitive) when someone makes a judgment. We know what we should do and shouldn't do. We're on a journey. If we did everything perfectly we wouldn't be here discussing it... we'd have attained moksha.

Eastern Mind
08 June 2011, 09:01 PM
Vannakkam Minotaur: I honestly give you my best wishes in becoming a vegetarian. The few Tamils I do know who have switched back over really feel like something large has been dropped from their shoulders. You can see it in them. You're right that it may take time. My Guru gave the meat eating people who wanted to joining his organisation a year. After that ... well, I guess you're not that serious about it. But then he was a very strict Guru. Others may not be quite so. Still, I haven't heard of many ashrams or yoga places serving up meat either. Perhaps in India, when they cater to the westerners who haven't taken it on, who bring truckloads of money, that then can be turned into good uses, but I doubt it. I actually don't know.

I do get along well with my Tamil meat eating friends, and usually we just don't discuss the topic, but here ion HDF its another matter. This, by definition, IS a place for discussion.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
08 June 2011, 09:32 PM
He said it's not easy to do, especially overnight.


Vannakkam: Nor is it that hard. I went cold turkey when I was 19, because my friends were trying it, and since they were smart people in my opinion, I vowed for a month to go off meat ... just to see if I felt different. It was easy. After that we ate fish and eggs on rare occasions for about 2 years. Travelling was especially different as our small town restaurants had very little to offer.

About a month ago, my daughter has a positive diagnosis for Celiac's. (gluten allergy) She has had to give up all wheat products, and anything that may have remnants of wheat. This includes things like beer, ice cream, and ketchup, depending on varieties. The choice ... accellerated poor health resulting in a premature death.

In her research, we discovered that it is genetic. Upon further research I concluded there is a decent likelihood I have it as well, given some of my digestive symptoms. I figure its about 20% chance for me. So for the month of June, (and maybe forever) I'm going gluten free. That means no toast, no bread at all, no cereals, no dougnut snacks, no chapatis or rotis. We went and bought quite a bit of buckwheat, quinoa, and millet. I'm finding it relatively easy.

Many Hindus also fast on occasion, giving up ALL food, not just meat.

So although some may find it hard, some also find it quite easy. Certainly, as I said earlier, adjusting one's diet is far easier than overcoming an addiction like alcohol, or cigarettes, where the physical body withdrawal symptoms can be severe. Drying out from alcohol involves delirium tremors. Nicotine just involves the edginess and cravings.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
08 June 2011, 10:56 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


That means no toast, no bread at all, no cereals, no dougnut snacks, no chapatis or rotis. We went and bought quite a bit of buckwheat, quinoa, and millet. I'm finding it relatively easy.


We have been doing this for some time and I think its much healthier ( for us). I know I feel better.
My family is very conscious of what we eat, so limiting those things have been easy as they are high carbohydrates . So , lots of fruits, vegitables, brown or wild rice, etc.

What is important ( I have found) via this diet choice is you begin to eat to live, not live to eat.

Yet my taste buds still enjoy a pizza now and then.

praṇām

Jainarayan
09 June 2011, 05:51 AM
Namaste EMji


Vannakkam Minotaur: I honestly give you my best wishes in becoming a vegetarian. The few Tamils I do know who have switched back over really feel like something large has been dropped from their shoulders. You can see it in them. You're right that it may take time. My Guru gave the meat eating people who wanted to joining his organisation a year. After that ... well, I guess you're not that serious about it. ...

I know you mean it sincerely and I appreciate the support.

I agree that after a year you're probably not serious. Whatever I put my mind to I usually accomplish. And the thing is, I'm not really all that fond of food. I've gained weight because of inactivity from my back surgery and the pain before that. I often go entire days without eating because I forget about it.

People who know me and respect me will understand when they don't see me eating meat, or at the least, beef. My family, whom I really don't bother much with anyway, are another matter. They would be nosy and ask questions and make comments. Even at this age they tend to mock me. So it's best I tell them "personal reasons" and leave it at that, should it come up, which it will some time.

I also have gluten-intolerance, so I really need to stay away from grains that have gluten. I pay the price when I do eat even whole grains. It's the gluten. I can't have millet because I have an underactive thyroid I take meds. for. Millet is as bad as soy for a thyroid condition (they bind with the thryoid hormones and make it un-bioavailable).

I haven't decided if all meat is going to be out... you know, fish and other seafood, poultry. I've heard other vegetarians say don't eat it if it has a face. So that leaves only shellfish. But then why bother with even those? I really don't have a problem with finding alternative protein sources (Muscle Milk for the win!). Whey is a good one, and I love yogurt.

I don't like the way chickens are treated, but giving up commercial eggs will be a challenge. I will probably have to look for free range chicken eggs. They are raised much better, though I believe the roosters are castrated (that's a capon) so as not to be able to fertilize the eggs. All hen birds will lay eggs in the presence of any male bird, even another species. Though I may be wrong about the castration.

I'll probably do this in stages. Any dietary change can wreak havoc on your system. First thing is to stop beef and remove the lust for grains. Then I can move on to eliminating other things. As I say, it's a journey.

NayaSurya
09 June 2011, 06:35 AM
I live in the middle of a culture of meat eating. Everything is tainted with it...even gummy bears/worms and marshmallows.

We have meat in our home.

The other day I spent thirty minutes trying to find a veggie gummy candy for our children and failed. I stopped eating marshmallows...knowing they contain beef byproducts caused this...it disgusts me.

My food budget for 10 is 250 a week, and let me tell you...I try my best to avoid the heavy cost items...but not in the way you might think.

There have been posts about this before...and I say again-

"Everything we do impacts others...if we eat bread...the soil that was upturned to make the wheat killed the gophers and other living animals as the plow ran through the field....and the innocent children of the mouse as they lay in shallow burrows within the corn were taken as the field was turned over.

Just because you do not know of this fact, doesn't make their death any less.

Every person on this planet leaves an undeniable footprint...

I am not saying we should not try to avoid killing things and eating them. We should avoid killing things as best we can.

But, I am saying that every life...wether it has a face like ours or not...is precious.

I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.

I consume the grass which consumed the cow....which consumed the grass which consumed me.


We each have a price upon our head...an amount we cost to be here. Be it plants, small animals that are knocked dead by the plow...or even the large bovines which fill our planet with methane and eat the starving masses potential food/grain.

A recent United Nations report entitled Livestock's Long Shadow concludes that eating meat is "one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global". The report finds that eating meat causes almost 40 per cent more greenhouse-gas emissions than all the cars, trucks, ships and planes in the world combined.


Meat is a food choice, a last resort. The amount it takes to feed one cow to slaughter could feed many dozen starving people...and that cow itself can only feed few.

Our family is conscientiously avoiding all meat, and not just because we are Dharmists...but because we don't want our decision of a casual food choice to encourage increased population of cattle. As more cows mean less cheap grain would be available for the world's hungry."

Taken from here-

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5584&highlight=mouse



It is as if we stand to face ourself each day and weigh how much our existence cost and how much our life is worth.

I do my very very best to make sure our impact/cost is low...and it's hard with children much like yourself, Minotaur.

My two very youngest (twins) have a mitochondrial disorder, they were given Carnatine three times daily for years. It's a red meat thing...and it's made our dietary habits here altered.

It is a genetic condition which our pediatric geneticist says is the reason my own Beloved Husband has been 6'4 and 129 for most of his adult life.

So....I understand dietary reasons deeply. My own life was put into jeapardy because of a hereditary issue with B12 which was aggravated by my absolute vegetarianism. My cousin had a stroke because of this disease...and my doctor finding this in me, saved me from the same outcome. For years I recieved shots for this, I went off them recently to see if my oral dietary supplement alone would sustain my level...we will see.


My post here isn't out of concern what others will think, I am beyond that point where I would even hide such a fact. We avoid meat in every situation where we can, because it has a higher cost(spiritually) upon it than other food choices. But, I am not shamed or guilted by our need for a certain ammount in our home. We do the best we can...and so I say to you...just do the best you can. What else can you do? It's your best<3




Edited to add-

What the ignorant mother, simply trying to work out from her own observations above, is better and more elloquently stated here-

"Men, O Brahmana, while walking about hither and thither, kill numberless creatures lurking in the ground by trampling on them, and even men of wisdom and enlightenment destroy animal life in various ways, even while sleeping or reposing themselves. What hast thou to say to this?--The earth and the air all swarm with living organisms, which are unconsciously destroyed by men from mere ignorance. Is not this so? The commandment that people should not do harm to any creature, was ordained of old by men, who were ignorant of the true facts of the case. For, O Brahmana, there is not a man on the face of this earth, who is free from the sin of doing injury to creatures. After full consideration, the conclusion is irresistible that there is not a single man who is free from the sin of doing injury to animal life."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03207.htm

Ganeshprasad
09 June 2011, 08:11 AM
Pranam Minotaur and all

If I have come across judgmental or perhaps I have, I apologise, but then when we state our own view on other end off the scale, are we not also judging?

I agree working of karma is very intricate but Krishna says one must always follow Shastra for what is right and wrong, at the end of the day it us who must judge for ourselves our karma and our destiny, believe me I do not go out tell my friends or relatives what to eat or how to behave, but this is a Hindu forum, as EM pointed, we present it the best way we can.
I realise hinsa can take many different form, and this tongue, unlike other senses has two different function ,very difficult to control, both for the taste and the urge to speak.

We are advised to eat Parsad only; Lord Krishna says
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanat

The righteous who eat the remnants of the Yajna are freed from all sins, but the impious who cook food only for themselves verily eat sin. (3.13)

What to speak of meat eating, but then Shastra also say one living entity is dependent on other, so we have to balance that with Ahimsa, daya, karuna (compassion) that is what make us human let alone spiritual.

Yes Naya it is impossible to avoid but we must do everything in our power to avoid wilful destruction.

Jai Shree Krishna

NayaSurya
09 June 2011, 08:21 AM
I do not think you come off as judging. You are giving the true ideal for our lives and I 100% agree with you.

Jainarayan
09 June 2011, 08:30 AM
I live in the middle of a culture of meat eating. Everything is tainted with it...even gummy bears/worms and marshmallows.

We have meat in our home.

The other day I spent thirty minutes trying to find a veggie gummy candy for our children and failed. I stopped eating marshmallows...knowing they contain beef byproducts caused this...it disgusts me.

It is a challenge to find products that don't have gelatin. Even vitamin or medication capsules are made of gelatin. What is one to do?



"Everything we do impacts others...if we eat bread...the soil that was upturned to make the wheat killed the gophers and other living animals as the plow ran through the field....and the innocent children of the mouse as they lay in shallow burrows within the corn were taken as the field was turned over.

I've always thought about this. And then when we clear forests for farmlands, the birds, squirrels and other things that lived in those trees. What is one to do?


I am not saying we should not try to avoid killing things and eating them. We should avoid killing things as best we can.

But, I am saying that every life...wether it has a face like ours or not...is precious.

I am concerned when one would be so quick to judge a meat eater or other person based on their level of spiritual ability to decline such things, but would have to be consuming some sort of life to be here.

There are casualties of all sorts in life. I'm coming to believe that it's wrong to deliberately kill an animal for food. It's possible that it's the way of karma that those animals that live in those fields sacrifice their lives so others can eat. Ah, maybe that's too deeply philosophical and I'm trying too hard.

Jainarayan
09 June 2011, 08:50 AM
Pranam Minotaur and all

If I have come across judgmental or perhaps I have, I apologise, but then when we state our own view on other end off the scale, are we not also judging?

I think I understand what you're saying. I think it was the word 'pity' that set me off. To me it connotes a degree of arrogance that we have something others don't. I believe you didn't mean it that way. So I apologize too for jumping the gun. :o

Let me give an example:

I was at the mall one day. I saw a man with his back towards me walking with two canes with the cuffs around his wrists. He may have had muscular dystrophy, as his legs were very weak. In days past he would have been said to be "lame". He was carrying some packages and looked to be struggling. That in itself made me want to cry.

He turned around and I saw... he was no more than late teens or early twenties. That made me want to cry even moreso. A young man who should be playing sports couldn't. I felt "pity" for him. I wanted to go up to him because he was headed for the door, to ask if he needed help. I didn't do it for fear of insulting him. Though sometimes someone appreciates a helping hand.

Another day I saw a young man at the beach with his family. He was strapped into one of those special wheelchairs. He was mentally and physically disabled. I felt pity for him because he probably thought that day out at the beach was one of the high points of his life. I felt pity because he couldn't do the things I can do.

Now, the point...

I felt pity for these two young men, and I felt anger at myself for pitying them. I also felt guilty because I would have given my able-bodiness to them and taken on their disability. Then I felt anger for my pity and my arrogance because I can do things they can't. It would be too easy to say it's their karma and excuse my feelings. Seems I'd be wrong any which-way.

Ganeshprasad
09 June 2011, 10:19 AM
Pranam


I think I understand what you're saying. I think it was the word 'pity' that set me off. To me it connotes a degree of arrogance that we have something others don't. I believe you didn't mean it that way. So I apologize too for jumping the gun. :o

i understand your feelings, with hindsight i should have been more careful with my choice of words.



Then I felt anger for my pity and my arrogance because I can do things they can't. It would be too easy to say it's their karma and excuse my feelings. Seems I'd be wrong any which-way.i see good in both, one for being compassionate, two for being sensitive.

one should worry if this feeling was lacking at the same time one can not take away the suffering of others. if one is able to and if allowed one should help and that can be in many different ways.

i remember few years back Glen Hoddle England football coach who meant well, lost his job saying it was the Karma of the disabled person, he lost his job for being insensitive, not everyone is in the know the concept of karma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Jainarayan
09 June 2011, 10:30 AM
OK, so I'm doing some reading.


Large curd cottage cheese is out, as it's made with rennet. Small curd cottage cheese is not made with rennet. At this first stage of my journey, anything made from, or eating a warm blooded four legged animal is out. I'm on the fence about my leather shoes, jacket and belts. I prefer to think (justify?) their use that they were made at the end of the cow's life:
Our mother, when she dies, means expenses of burial or cremation. Mother cow is as useful dead as when she is alive. We can make use of every part of her body - her flesh, her bones, her intestines, her horns and her skin.
—Gandhi[18] (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/#cite_note-Gandhi-17)To that end, no more hard or soft cheeses (my Lord, I do love feta :( ) made with rennet, which includes almost all cheeses except paneer, Spanish queso blanco and the aforementioned small curd cottage cheese. And no commercial pizza... mozzarella is made with rennet. Make your own pizza and use a soft cheese not made with rennet.

I'm on the fence about eggs, especially from free-range chickens, as they are also slaughtered at the end of their egg-productive lives. They are really no different than factory farmed cages hens when it comes right down to it. Unless I'm wrong, male free-range chicks are not killed as they are in factory farming. That's despicable.

I'm on the fence about seafood also. This can actually all become a slippery slope, and I can see why it's up to the individual to make the choices.

Jainarayan
09 June 2011, 10:37 AM
Namaste.


Pranam



i understand your feelings, with hindsight i should have been more careful with my choice of words.

Ah, shouldn't we all. The world would be a happier place. :)


i see good in both, one for being compassionate, two for being sensitive.

one should worry if this feeling was lacking at the same time one can not take away the suffering of others. if one is able to and if allowed one should help and that can be in many different ways.

I was told that by others too when I told the story. Maybe a form of help is to pray for the person. I used to think it silly in Christianity when people said "I'll pray for you". Perhaps that judgment (eh, I'm not free of it either :( ) was incorrect.

Jainarayan
16 June 2011, 12:41 PM
I hope this doesn't come across as bragging. Tomorrow is a week I haven't eating anything that has fur. No beef, no lamb, pork or veal, or soups made from them, no cheese except small curd cottage cheese. All other cheeses are made with rennet, the enzyme from the 4th stomach of a ruminant. I really don't any of miss it.

The biggest challenge is to stop and think of what to eat, rather, what not to eat so as to avoid eating something that came from an animal with fur. I'm avoiding even pizza because mozzarella is made with rennet. I was disappointed when I read that, but I believe it's the right thing to do.

My next step will be to give up meat that has feathers... chicken, turkey (goose, duck, quail, pheasant, etc. are hard to come by around here, so that's not a problem). I've actually felt guilty eating chicken recently. I had some chicken wings last night, but I really think that was the last night! I know that many Indian restaurants serve Tandoori Chicken, but's probably to cater to western tastes. I don't know that I will stop eggs; however, I will make a concerted effort to find eggs from free range hens.

I don't know about fish and other seafood yet, as I don't want to go gung-ho: too much too fast, lest I get discouraged. Though I can't see why in the near future I could not eliminate that. I'd be more than happy to give up fish oil capsules and lower my triglycerides another way. :D

Rudy
17 June 2011, 02:57 PM
Good news (for me) I just found out that most (it does not say on the label though) cheese in America does not have animal rennet in it, non animal is cheaper (go greed!;) ) you can always check to see for sure if it does not have animal rennet in it by checking to see if it is Kosher (Jewish diatary law says they can't have meat and dairy at the same time).

Eastern Mind
17 June 2011, 03:51 PM
Good news (for me) I just found out that most (it does not say on the label though) cheese in America does not have animal rennet in it, non animal is cheaper (go greed!;) ) you can always check to see for sure if it does not have animal rennet in it by checking to see if it is Kosher (Jewish diatary law says they can't have meat and dairy at the same time).

Vannakkam Rudy: Then this is a change. 25 years ago when I communicated directly with a couple of cheese factories complaining, I was told that because of long term contracts with animal rennet suppliers, they wouldn't change. But maybe you're right and they have. Still I'd be phoning each individual plant and asking them. It could be like MacDonalds and their 'vegetarian' fries, and the ensuing lawsuit.

From what sources did you find this out?

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
17 June 2011, 04:10 PM
Thankfully it is no longer the case for many many cheese!

http://cheese.joyousliving.com/CheeseListBrand.aspx


http://cheese.joyousliving.com/

Cabot, and Sargento, which our families very favorite are on there as well as hundreds of others which have went Kosher.

Could be the tremendous pressure from various religions that caused this, but as you all said..probably cost effective more than likely.

Jainarayan
17 June 2011, 04:36 PM
Then it is indeed good news. :) Cheese labels have the word 'enzymes', and rennet is an enzyme. That's what turned me off. Now, there are 'vegetable rennets'. These are vegetable enzymes that act like animal rennet to curdle the milk.

The suggestion of kosher is an excellent idea... indeed, there is the Levitical prohibition against eating meat and milk together. The reason is a humanitarian one.

Rudy
18 June 2011, 09:29 AM
This isn't where I found it originnally but but it has all the info: http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Are_There_Any_Cheeses_that_Do_Not_Contain_Rennet

I also e-mailed cabot cheese (their big in my area) to see if they use animal rennet.

Eastern Mind
18 June 2011, 09:49 AM
This isn't where I found it originnally but but it has all the info: http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Are_There_Any_Cheeses_that_Do_Not_Contain_Rennet

I also e-mailed cabot cheese (their big in my area) to see if they use animal rennet.

Vannakkam Rudy: That's funny because I emailed a cheese producer as well. I looked on the cheese in the fridge, and it said 'microbial enzyme' which according to Nayasurya's link is not rennet. I used to think it was just a fancy name for rennet used to hide it, just like they hide sugars with about 5 different names. Next time I'm in a store, I'm going to read a lot of cheese labels. If I remember correctly some actually say 'macrobial enzyme and/or rennet' .

Keep us all informed, as will I.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
18 June 2011, 10:00 AM
What kind of rennet is used to make Cabot cheeses?

Cabot uses a microbial-based enzyme to manufacture all of our award-winning cheeses with the exception of our Processed American Cheese slices. The microbial-based enzyme coagulates the milk into curds and whey, and it is approved for vegetarians. This enzyme also allows our cheeses to pass kosher certification. Our Processed American Cheese slices are sourced from plants that Cabot does not own, so we cannot guarantee that they are made with microbial enzymes.

Are Cabot Products Kosher and/or Halal Certified?
http://www.cabotcheese.coop/images/your_health/halal_rt_padding.gif Cabot is certified kosher and offers a broad range of kosher dairy products, including cheese, cultured products, and butters. Under the supervision of a rabbi, Cabot maintains kosher standards. In addition Cabot offers a broad range of halal cheddar cheeses that have met the rules and regulations specified by a supervising Islamic Administrator. Cabot Cheeses are free of all animal by-products, and our cheeses are made without any animal rennet. Please look for this icon on the packaging of your favorite Cabot dairy products to be sure thaey are certified.


http://www.cabotcheese.coop/pages/your_health/askus.php


Cabot's whole way of farming is very goodly.

Jainarayan
18 June 2011, 10:11 AM
A lot of those cheeses from the manufacturers listed are not available around here. The only ones are brie and the Sargento cheddar sticks and cubes. I like ricotta, but 'ricotta' in Italian means 'recooked'. The whey from making parmigiano-reggiano is reprocessed to make ricotta. And parmigiano-reggiano is made with guess what... animal rennet. :(

If push comes to shove I can live without cheese. I can stick with cottage cheese or paneer. I drain the cottage cheese to make it firmer. If I have a mind I can even weigh it down while it's draining. I line a metal strainer with coffee filters and let it drip into a bowl, refrigerated. After a day or two it's much firmer. I do that with plain yogurt too, to make it Greek style.

kallol
24 June 2011, 11:18 AM
If one is in a place where there is no vegetation (south pole, greenland) or one is born in a society of hunters, or one is born in a society who takes meat - how will his karma get affected.

There is a story in Purana that Vishnu had sent Narada to one Butcher to get knowledge on one spiritual topic.

There is the story of Rama killing dear, there is the story in Mahabharata of khandav forest burning on request of Agni devta.

Human is known to be omnivorous - before agriculture was established they were mostly hunters. It will be true with all cycles of creation.

Even Ramakrishna used to take fish. In Bengal Ramakrishna Mutt that is still practised.

Why did God design this way if this is a bad karma ?

Is it a choice or is it a necessity ?

Love and best wishes

Jainarayan
24 June 2011, 11:31 AM
Namaste kallol.

This is all I can offer. I just read it yesterday and found it again:

The Mahabharata permits hunting by warriors (Kshatriyas (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Kshatriya)),[16] (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/#cite_note-15)

^ (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/#cite_ref-15) Mahabharata 13.115.59–60; 13.116.15–18.

I myself have begun by not eating anything with hair or fur. It's two weeks. I don't know what I'd do in one of the situations you mention, so I am eager to hear what those who know say.

Eastern Mind
24 June 2011, 01:33 PM
If one is in a place where there is no vegetation (south pole, greenland) or one is born in a society of hunters, or one is born in a society who takes meat - how will his karma get affected.
There is a story in Purana that Vishnu had sent Narada to one Butcher to get knowledge on one spiritual topic.
There is the story of Rama killing dear, there is the story in Mahabharata of khandav forest burning on request of Agni devta.
Human is known to be omnivorous - before agriculture was established they were mostly hunters. It will be true with all cycles of creation.
Even Ramakrishna used to take fish. In Bengal Ramakrishna Mutt that is still practised.
Why did God design this way if this is a bad karma ?
Is it a choice or is it a necessity ?
Love and best wishes

Vannakkam: Yes it must have been karma to be born into hunting and gathering societies. Maybe it was karma from being a radical proseletysing vegetarian. Who knows? If that's the case I might be headed there myself. Fortunately for me, very few of these places or tribes exist today. Still, from what I've read, they knew enought to eat stomach contents to get vitamins.

The other stories are isolated stories from scripture or of one person. Isolated stories don't make a consensus. For each Ramakrishna, there are 100 saints who didn't eat fish. Still, the person who wants to defend his fish eating will naturally rely on the Ramakrishna story.

The fact of the matter is today, in 99.9% of the world, we can survive and thrive on a meatless diet. The choice is ours.

Aum Namasivaya

kallol
25 June 2011, 02:51 AM
Vannakkam: Yes it must have been karma to be born into hunting and gathering societies. Maybe it was karma from being a radical proseletysing vegetarian. Who knows? If that's the case I might be headed there myself. Fortunately for me, very few of these places or tribes exist today. Still, from what I've read, they knew enought to eat stomach contents to get vitamins.

The other stories are isolated stories from scripture or of one person. Isolated stories don't make a consensus. For each Ramakrishna, there are 100 saints who didn't eat fish. Still, the person who wants to defend his fish eating will naturally rely on the Ramakrishna story.

The fact of the matter is today, in 99.9% of the world, we can survive and thrive on a meatless diet. The choice is ours.

Aum Namasivaya


Is it ia choice or necessity for spiritual quest ?

Love and best wishes

Eastern Mind
25 June 2011, 06:17 AM
Is it ia choice or necessity for spiritual quest ?

Love and best wishes

Vannakkam: For me personally I see it as a necessity. (to not eat meat) A diabetic needs insulin. So conditions do vary from person to person. I have no problem with someone who chooses to eat meat, but I think their spiritual quest would be limited. For starters, if you can't give up meat, where is your will power?

Aum Namasivaya

kallol
25 June 2011, 09:04 AM
Vannakkam: For me personally I see it as a necessity. (to not eat meat) A diabetic needs insulin. So conditions do vary from person to person. I have no problem with someone who chooses to eat meat, but I think their spiritual quest would be limited. For starters, if you can't give up meat, where is your will power?

Aum Namasivaya

You are right. It helps but may not limit. The knowledge and assimilation part is independent of the duties one performs to keep ones body in right shape in some conditions. However the assimilation part may be a bit hindered and will take a bit longer in some cases.

Food is only one of the aspects of spiritual quest. The others might be more important.

However the background of one may bring out different opinions. So there will be different opinions.

Love and best wishes

Loki
25 June 2011, 07:08 PM
I, too, eat vegetables, but you must consider Gaia, she can not always produce and she might disappoint..,

And I believe it important to the creator that men, women, and children are fed...

Fish provides an appropriate vigor, the Prophet Jesus would have agreed with this.

And all a fish needs is water, or salt-water. Tanks could be easily made that assured the public would be fed if drought or famine occurred.

It is this that I think most important and why I added fish to my diet. I don't necessarily want to be a vegetable, and one must be careful in not becoming too prideful. Personally I don't wish to be apart from this life, which would be my only complaint of the Indian culture.

They don't seem to take an interest in what's going on in the world. And yet they're the most civil on it. It makes no sense. Where went Arjuna?

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 12:48 PM
Which is the greater sin, so to speak... eating a meat dish that was prepared, or throwing it out so as not to eat it?

It's a little over a month since I've eaten anything with fur or hair (beef, lamb, pork, veal, etc.), or cheese (animal rennet). I don't miss it, except for the cheese (mozzarella and ricotta on pizza especially :( ).

But I have a container of veal and peppers in the freezer I prepared and froze before I stopped eating that. Now, is it worse to throw the food away, or to eat it so as not to waste it? I really don't want to eat it.

One option I thought of is to defrost it and set it out for animals. I would go to a wooded area and do it, so as not to attract raccoons near the house.

I'm also about ready to wean off of feathers and fins also. There are plenty of other protein sources... whey protein, yogurt, cottage cheese (no rennet used in it), eggs (unfertilized of course, and possibly free range), some tofu, and the ever popular legumes and rice, and vegs.

Sahasranama
20 July 2011, 12:53 PM
You can give it away to someone else or indeed give it to animals. (bali vaishvadeva). Throwing food away though is not a sin, because it just goes back to nature. That is the cycle of food.

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 12:56 PM
Just as I thought; now I feel better about returning it to Nature. Thanks. :)

achintya
09 October 2011, 02:18 PM
I was wondering is eating meat bad karma? What about eggs? I currently eat meat.

Thought I should know.

Dear Mr. Rudy.

My Shudra Kayastha community has been following a non-vegetarian diet and we have given to Hinduism Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, as well as many leading Indian politicians, social reformers and media personalities.

The Kshatriyas along with the Shudras have always been meat-eaters and hunters and for thousands of years until the year 1947, theirs was the Divine Right to rule over all of the Hindus. Even now the Kshatriyas have not lost all of their power and continue to be major patrons of the Hindu Dharma.

If meat eating produces bad Karma such as the above, I don't have any problem in that.

If you are a new entrant to Hinduism, please note that vegetarianism has always been a politically and sectarian charged issue that has been going on since last thousands of years.

Of course, now with new sincere Western converts to vegetarian Hindu sects like you, the vegetarian Hindus may have their most decisive shot at dominating the Hindu religion in many thousands of years. ;)

Eastern Mind
10 October 2011, 05:14 PM
Vannakkam: I think that one of the things that may not be so apparent in the east is the non-Hindu vegetarianism in the west. There are vegetarian societies growing all over. Many many restaurants offer vegetarian options. It is far easier to travel now if you're a vegetarian, even compared to 10 years back. The exception is if your vegetarianism is limited to Indian vegetarian. Even fast food places like Burger King and McDonalds offer veggie burgers, but that too depends on location. Its a fast growing industry, as is organic farming. I'm not sure which is faster, the growth of vegetarianism in the west, or the growth of meat eating in the east. I do know that the propensity of vegetarianism is often a surprise to very recent immigrants. The world's diet gods are on the move. Aum Namasivaya

uttam
13 November 2011, 05:16 AM
I think selection of food is not based on religion rather on climate etc and availability. in India we see defferent food habit in defferent parts. in north east india you will not find so much milk, fruits,veg,rice, wheet etc as found in other parts. this is because difference of climate and life style.here people depends mostly on meat only. in Bengal there are lots of ponds small rivers which produce fish thus Bengali bound to eat fish. in Bhagabat Gita sri krishna says you should that food which gives good health energy etc.never mention veg or non veg. you know the muni-rishi also use to take meat of domestic . no karma is bad or good. it is your thinking which make it bad or good otherwise how Sri Krishna encourages Arjuna to fight and kill his kith and kin.when we claim the karma done by ourselves it become bad and if everything is done by God who will say that is good or bad .

OjasM
23 February 2012, 07:45 AM
I was wondering is eating meat bad karma? What about eggs? I currently eat meat.

Thought I should know.

Food types are dicussed in Geeta in last section.

PARAM
28 February 2012, 07:37 AM
I think selection of food is not based on religion rather on climate etc and availability. in India we see defferent food habit in defferent parts. in north east india you will not find so much milk, fruits,veg,rice, wheet etc as found in other parts. this is because difference of climate and life style.here people depends mostly on meat only. in Bengal there are lots of ponds small rivers which produce fish thus Bengali bound to eat fish. in Bhagabat Gita sri krishna says you should that food which gives good health energy etc.never mention veg or non veg. you know the muni-rishi also use to take meat of domestic . no karma is bad or good. it is your thinking which make it bad or good otherwise how Sri Krishna encourages Arjuna to fight and kill his kith and kin.when we claim the karma done by ourselves it become bad and if everything is done by God who will say that is good or bad .

No wonder you don't have knowledge or you just want to say you are our Lord.

In Bhagat Geeta, Sri Krishna tells Arjun to eat Satvic as regular food, Rajas as only part time, but tamasik which includes flesh, eggs etc is forbidden. Which rishi muni eat meat and where? If you mention Terrorist Hazrat Muhannad, he was no Rishi or Muni. Sri Krishna supported Good Karma and opposed Bad Karma it is revealed in Bhagwat Geeta.

Believer
28 February 2012, 07:47 AM
Namaste,

no karma is bad or good. it is your thinking which make it bad or good otherwise how Sri Krishna encourages Arjuna to fight and kill his kith and kin.when we claim the karma done by ourselves it become bad and if everything is done by God who will say that is good or bad .
????

Pranam.

PARAM
28 February 2012, 07:52 AM
Believer, this is how Muslims, Christians, and other anti-Hindu groups say because they don't believe in Karma.

There are anti-Hindus who claim they have evidence of Tamsic deeds including meat eating, even beef in the Vedas, and there are the same who claims they have evidence of No belief in Kama in Bhagwad Geeta.