Kāla

[Kismet]

Probably one of my biggest challenges with Hinduism surrounds (what I find) the exaggerated periods of time involved in the yuga cycles during which human beings are said to have lived millions of years ago. This simply does not jive well with modern-day scientific findings or evolution. Now, I understand empiricism is not the end-all of human thought and philosophy, but to imagine our sciences and pre-historical extrapolations to be so dead wrong is not something I find cogent. My reason cannot accept it. Instead, I prefer to think of time as it relates to the yugas in a strictly spiritual sense. The passage of empirical time is one thing; but I think time can also be looked at from the perspective of "God's time" or a kairotic expression of the divine shakti within time, but not empirically.

This is definitely a difficult aspect of Hinduism for myself intellectually. Although I absolutely adore Hinduism and find it profound on many levels, some elements I cannot will myself to believe even if I tried. Hopefully I will be able to find a synthesis that will allow me to preserve my Dharmic faith and yet remain stalwart in my critical faculty.

[goodlife]

you may want to search micheal cremo on google and you tube and loko out for forbidden history. hopefully that will be some proof for "exaggerated periods of time".

here one video for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ug-IPjtM-s

hope it helps you on your quest to unearth proof.

[goodlife]

another video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXR0shxjKIY&feature=related

[Kismet]

another video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXR0shxjKIY&feature=related

Namaste, goodlife.

Unfortunately, (and I am not trying to sound mean or biased) I do not, or rather cannot, take very seriously the claims made by such fringe scientists and "specialists" as featured in such films as the ones you just showed me. Most of these people are frauds or in any case their credentials are highly suspect. And, even if a handful of anomalous findings do happen to be true, I have no real way of knowing whether they are authentic or not. Seeing as how most of such findings have been thoroughly debunked time and time again (as more or less hoaxes), I think I'd fare much better by sticking to the contemporary scholarly consensus surrounding evolution and the age of the earth...

Perhaps one day I will get my mind blown and have a complete paradigm shift. I would need a great deal more evidence, however, than you have provided, unfortunately.

[smaranam]

Most of these people are frauds or in any case their credentials are highly suspect.

Namaste, fraud... hoax... well, do you have any basis for saying that other than your own water-well ? You do not have to believe anything, but we don't call them frauds just because we got used to old empirical speculation theories that happen to be in textbooks. They are in textbooks because no one bothered to climb out of the well.

praNAm

[Kismet]

Namaste, fraud... hoax... well, do you have any basis for saying that other than your own water-well ? You do not have to believe anything, but we don't call them frauds just because we got used to old empirical speculation theories that happen to be in textbooks. They are in textbooks because no one bothered to climb out of the well.

praNAm

Well, in the later link goodlife sent me to the Charlton Heston documentary, Don Patton and Carl Baugh (who feature in it) are well-known frauds with very dubious credentials. I don't know that much about Thompson and Cremo but the latter supposedly never finished college and the former's expertise is in mathematics, not archaeology.

By association, if not by repute, such individuals cast tremendous doubt on the veridicality of their findings.

[charitra]

Probably one of my biggest challenges with Hinduism surrounds (what I find) the exaggerated periods of time involved in the yuga cycles during which human beings are said to have lived millions of years ago. This simply does not jive well with modern-day scientific findings or evolution.

Namaste,
The hindu yuga or time scale concept outlined in scriptures poses simultaneously an academic challenge and serve an inspiration to all contemporary scientists. Some vedic concepts deserve mention here : the entire cosmos is in a constant flux of creation, evolution and destruction depending on which segment one is looking at any given moment. Another school of thought is that once in a while the entire cosmos (physical world) gets destroyed but then only to reform later, in this latter model the only link between any contiguous 2 cosmic creations is the formless, imperishable Brahman. The former works as a base model for the very recently shaping up ‘theory of MULTIverse’ that is now replacing formerly popular UNIverse model. As a result the bigbang is downsized to the origins of OUR own UNIverse, thus supporting a cosmic model with many universes existing simultaneously. Today, on science channel I heard some thing familiar: Is time an illusion we created to explain our own universe? The term illusion stood out prominently –it is a very vedic term. The presenter went on to talk about string theory and bubble theory and wormhole theory to explain shape and size of universe. Infinity, another vedic concept, seems to have gained larger approval nowadays.

Theoretical cosmology is going to draw lot of inspiration from Sanskrit texts, it is a different matter acknowledgements may not be heaped on the vedas as ‘original reference sources’. Just like Darwin conveniently failed to mention dashavatars as an original path breaking reference article in his theory of origin of species just 150 yrs ago. Notably, by then his fellow Brits were already firmly camping in south asia and vigorously exploring the Sanskrit texts. Thank you Carl Segan, we love you for your honesty.

Brahman existed forever and so did his manifest creation as well. So an actual date on which the genesis of creation (of physical world) heralded cant be set. Lets think for a second- which space probe can go on forever on an infinite space travel without attrition, and assuming that it did, the images and data sent back to our golden planet will be thousands of light years old. There is no way of looking at realtime events unfolding in cosmos beyond a short distance. Brahman is many steps ahead of us, our handicap lies right there, sadly solution is not going to be found… in our earth’s lifetime that is !

[goodlife]

Namaste Kismet

i posted videos so you should know that there exists people who think they have proof to show that our history goes way back in time.

We should not believe prima facie but then cant discard them out right.

ALl things presented which are contrary to popular consensus are termed hoax, fraud etc. by vested interestes.

remember galileo? or more recently tesla Vs edison? AC Vs DC?? or may AIT??

[Kismet]

Namaste Kismet

i posted videos so you should know that there exists people who think they have proof to show that our history goes way back in time.

We should not believe prima facie but then cant discard them out right.

ALl things presented which are contrary to popular consensus are termed hoax, fraud etc. by vested interestes.

remember galileo? or more recently tesla Vs edison? AC Vs DC?? or may AIT??

That is a very good point, actually. How do we know, after all, what is and what isn't true? Typically it is good to look at particular fields of expertise and see, therein, what the experts think is best. And so, if you wish to know what doctors know, you go to medical school, if you want to know what Catholic priests know, you go to seminary, etc, etc. We've all heard this before.

But what if the experts themselves are wrong? Worse, what if they comprise some information-twisting cabal that is dead-set on giving a spurious interpretation of the facts in accordance with some base agenda?

My answer is: what is your evidence? What makes you think the current paradigm is all that false? What is more, why should anyone think there is an outright conspiracy pervading the scientific community?

Paradigm shifts do occur, granted. Huge, leveling changes in the way we perceive physics, cosmology, astronomy, etc. But they are pretty atypical and far in-between expanses of time where the consensus is fixed. If a shift is going to ensue, then time itself will reveal it. Truth will come to light eventually, especially when it becomes too difficult to ignore. Until then, I am going to accept the consensus unless such information comes to light that I myself cannot dismiss as merely hearsay, anecdotal or in any other sense dubious.

[Mana]

Namasté

Does the Hindu tradition say that Humans exist in these periods or that the Jivas exist? In greater forms?

Modern physics which can currently only explain 20% of the visible universe, delicately negates the issue of quantum electro dynamics relying heavily on time going both forwards and backwards or on the existence of a multiverse. I should recommend that you re read the newer suppositions of modern physics before making any judgement.

Maybe time accelerates causing the thickening of Maya?

Om shanti.

[Kismet]

Does the Hindu tradition say that Humans exist in these periods or that the Jivas exist? In greater forms?

Now this sort of view I would be more sympathetic towards. It is still largely speculative and metaphysical in nature. However, since there is no outright contradiction in that it does not refute the prehistoric record, I am much more willing to give it a shot.

And, of course, granting the religious supposition that Jivas exist (which I do), the question that naturally proceeds is, where do they go? And, where have they been, if they are truly eternal?

[Mana]

Now this sort of view I would be more sympathetic towards. It is still largely speculative and metaphysical in nature. However, since there is no outright contradiction in that it does not refute the prehistoric record, I am much more willing to give it a shot.

And, of course, granting the religious supposition that Jivas exist (which I do), the question that naturally proceeds is, where do they go? And, where have they been, if they are truly eternal?

Sorry Kismet I have edited between out posts. and added to the above if you would care to re read. Thank you.

[Kismet]

Namasté

Does the Hindu tradition say that Humans exist in these periods or that the Jivas exist? In greater forms?

Modern physics which can currently only explain 20% of the visible universe, delicately negates the issue of quantum electro dynamics relying heavily on time going both forwards and backwards or on the existence of a multiverse. I should recommend that you re read the newer suppositions of modern physics before making any judgement.

Maybe time accelerates causing the thickening of Maya?

Om shanti.

Indeed I am not too well-versed in contemporary physics (or even physics, period!). Regrettably on this point I am less scientific in my leanings than I would like to be. Hopefully I'll be able to remedy that in the not-so-distant future.

If I am not mistaken there is such a thing as "dark energy" or "dark matter" that seemingly pervades the universe and accounts for most of its mass. In that respect, there are certainly aspects to this universe (what to speak of others) that we know little about.

[Mana]

Indeed I am not too well-versed in contemporary physics (or even physics, period!). Regrettably on this point I am less scientific in my leanings than I would like to be. Hopefully I'll be able to remedy that in the not-so-distant future.

If I am not mistaken there is such a thing as "dark energy" or "dark matter" that seemingly pervades the universe and accounts for most of its mass. In that respect, there are certainly aspects to this universe (what to speak of others) that we know little about.

There is no proof that it exists, it just should be there to fill in the gaps of the current model.

The Hadron has been invented as a particle as a sort of glue to stick the model together.

The 7 billion euro accelerator in CERN Geneva is being tweaked at this very moment as it keeps failing to agree with the model.

I'm not really up to date on all this though so please don't take this for granted.

[Jainarayan]

Another school of thought is that once in a while the entire cosmos (physical world) gets destroyed but then only to reform later, in this latter model the only link between any contiguous 2 cosmic creations is the formless, imperishable Brahman.


Yes, this is the theory of the Big Bounce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce), and more specifically the cyclic model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillatory_universe). This is in line with our beliefs in Sanatana Dharma, though details may vary (maya at work?).


The former works as a base model for the very recently shaping up ‘theory of MULTIverse’ that is now replacing formerly popular UNIverse model. As a result the bigbang is downsized to the origins of OUR own UNIverse, thus supporting a cosmic model with many universes existing simultaneously. Today, on science channel I heard some thing familiar: Is time an illusion we created to explain our own universe? The term illusion stood out prominently –it is a very vedic term. The presenter went on to talk about string theory and bubble theory and wormhole theory to explain shape and size of universe. Infinity, another vedic concept, seems to have gained larger approval nowadays.

I was watching the same shows. Well, I fell asleep on the Through the Wormhole segment you are referring to vis-a-vis time being an illusion. The one before that posited the cyclic and big bounce multiverse theory. I've believed this for a very long time and accept it as Vedic truth. When you open your mind, all kinds of revelations come pouring in. :)


Theoretical cosmology is going to draw lot of inspiration from Sanskrit texts, it is a different matter acknowledgements may not be heaped on the vedas as ‘original reference sources’. ... Thank you Carl Segan, we love you for your honesty.

^ This.

[Jainarayan]

Now here's a mind-bender, to me anyway...


Because You are unlimited, neither the lords of heaven nor even You Yourself can ever reach the end of Your glories. The countless universes, each enveloped in its shell, are compelled by the wheel of time to wander within You, like particles of dust blowing about in the sky. The śrutis, following their method of eliminating everything separate from the Supreme, become successful by revealing You as their final conclusion (Bhagavata Purana 10.87.41)

Are all the universes, which Sanatana Dharma clearly accepts, created and destroyed at the same time or are they on their own cycles of creation and destruction?

My guess would be that they overlap on their own cycles, so that we could be reborn into any of them as anything. Unless there is something else in Scripture to support or refute this.

This is all fascinating, but I admit it makes my brain hurt.

Of course:

1. Should we explore and study it to understand? Will exploring and studying bring us closer to self-realization?

2. Should we just accept at face value?

[Mana]

Hi Minotaur

Beautiful text thank you for that. I have so much more to read discover and learn :)

I think there are in infinite amount of universes simultaneously as well as both before and after. Never mind which one we will be born in to next how about which one our next decision will led us into!

The Quantum double slit experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc)

This is so close to some of the thoughts of Santana Dharma I find that it is particularly graceful. Especially when the observer is involved.

Pranam

[devotee]

There is possibility of error committed in time calculation during the dark ages i.e. the peak of Kaliyuga. Swami Sriyukteswar in Holy Science says that there was an error committed after King Parikshit due to the effect of Kaliyuga & which led to undue inflation of time-period. This text is taken from the book :

“The position of the world in the Dwapara Sandhi era at present (A. D. 1894) is not correctly shown in the Hindu Almanacs. The astronomers and astrologers who calculate the almanacs have been guided by wrong annotations of certain Sanskrit scholars (such as Kulluka Bhatta) of the dark age of Kali Yuga, and now maintain that the length of Kali Yuga is 432,000 years, of which 4994 have (in A D. 1894) passed away, leaving 427,006 years still remaining. A dark prospect! And fortunately one not true.”

"We are currently in the beginning stages of Dwapara Yuga, which began around 1699 A.D. This now puts us in the year 311 Dwapara according to Sri Yukteswar. Thus, we are moving closer to the grand center, and will pass into Treta Yuga around the year 4099 A.D.[1]
If we represent the Yugas in a clock, the lowest spiritual time would be at 6 o'clock, aprox. year 1,000 A.D., which is the center of Kali Yuga (more or less the Middle Ages), and the highest point is 12 o'clock, in the center of Satya Yuga (literally Age of Truth, as sat=truth), or Golden Age. It takes aprox. 12,500 years from the lowest to the highest point, and about 25,000 in a complete turn. Now we would be at aprox. 7 c'clock, ascending in Dwapara Yuga or Bronze Age which started in 1699."

OM

[Jainarayan]

Hi Minotaur

Beautiful text thank you for that. I have so much more to read discover and learn :)

I'm glad you like it. I do too.


I think there are in infinite amount of universes simultaneously as well as both before and after. Never mind which one we will be born in to next how about which one our next decision will led us into!

The Quantum double slit experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc)

This is so close to some of the thoughts of Santana Dharma I find that it is particularly graceful. Especially when the observer is involved.

Pranam

I've seen that experiment on science shows and it completely bends my mind.

You're right about just worrying what our next life will be, nevermind where. :D

[Kismet]

I have recently thought long and hard about this puzzle yet again, and I've come to the conclusion that what the empirical sciences tell us about the world (together with its archaeology and chronology) has a limit.

Ultimately, I am much more inclined to believe that humans existed millions of years ago on the basis of a coherentist epistemology rather than a foundationalist, strictly empirical approach. Suffice it to say, I have had an almost "Copernican revolution" in my way of thinking that makes me reassess various assertions from more than one angle now. In that, I believe it is actually possible to reconcile evolution and material science in such a way that a space is preserved for Vedic history to span its whole length and breadth.

How this is possible is almost inconceivable, and very difficult to explain to say the least. What I can say is that, for all intents and purposes, I know this to be the case now, and in a way always have.

[Adhvagat]

Did we have ANY scientific breakthrough in the last 2011 years that disproved ANYTHING about the Vedas?

In fact we observe the exact opposite, whenever science "figures" something out, I say to myself: Well, that was already in the vedic body of knowledge, nothing new here.

This simple fact says a lot about the vedic knowledge tradition, no?

Of course current scientific traditions and vedic traditions aren't exactly simmetrical in interest and method, but the point is the inner workings and laws of the universe were always common knowledge to the Vedas.