Shiva as the greatest Vaishnava?

[adevotee108]

Namaste,

I am beginning this thread to ask people with more knowledge about this subject.

I had a conversation with an ISKCON member the other day. He says, Shiva is the greatest Vaishnava. Those who worship Shiva should make a shift and rather imitate what Shiva did - worship Krishna. Shiva is but the greatest Vaishnava, a demi-god.

My real question is this: Is this view of Shiva only that of ISKCON people or do also other Vaishnava (non-ISKCON) people regard Shiva as "only" the greatest Vaishnava?

This view that was talked about by my friend, in my opinion and understanding, would put Shiva on a lower level compared to Vishnu (Krishna).

(How do Vaishnava (but non-ISKCON) people regard Shiva?)

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam


Namaste,

(How do Vaishnava (but non-ISKCON) people regard Shiva?)



You will find Sri Vaishnava and Madhavas hold similar views to Iskcon, although they are not as vocal as the iskonites, there are other Vaishnava who see no difference, Tulsidas Goswami In his manas has utmost praise for Lord Shiva he has written this poem for Shiva which sums it all up;

Tulsidas writes Rudrashtak in Uttara kand of Ramcharita manas.It begans as -"Om namami shami shan nirvaan rupam; vibhum vyaapakm brahmn vedam swarupam"

it means -salutations o vibhu, o moksha personified, all pervading brahmn, ved personified ,Ishwar of Ishaan, and the lord and master of all Shiva"

Valbhachrya of pusti marg although steep in their bhakti of Krishna are not averse to Lord Shiva,
Shree Lingashtakam the eight verses are some say were written by Valbhacharya

swaminaryan a recent sect an off shoot of Sri sampraday, per their teaching believe Lord Shiva to be God

Jai Shree Krishna

[Sahasranama]

The puranas are often accused (by Arya Samajis) of creating disputes between followers of different Gods. But actually, the puranas are very clear:

शिवाय विष्णु रूपाय शिव रूपाय विष्णवे
शिवस्य हृदयं विष्णु विष्णोस्च हृदयं शिवः

śivāya viṣṇu rūpāya śiva rūpāya viṣṇave
śivasya hṛdayaṁ viṣṇu viṣṇosca hṛdayaṁ śivaḥ

There are quotes like this in the Skanda Purana, Vishnu Purana, Garuda Purana etc.

Gaudiya Vaishnavas accept the Puranas as pramana. Unfortunately what many sampradayas do is cherry pick from the shastras what supports their sect and discard the rest, pretending that it is not in accordence with the vedas. Vaishnavas have also heavily interpolated the padma purana to suit their needs.

Orthodox Sri Vaishnavas are the worst in regard to Shiva, many of them would not even step into a Shiva temple, while the other vaishnavas do worship Shiva besides Vishnu.

[Adhvagat]

शिवाय विष्णु रूपाय शिव रूपाय विष्णवे
शिवस्य हृदयं विष्णु विष्णोस्च हृदयं शिवः

śivāya viṣṇu rūpāya śiva rūpāya viṣṇave
śivasya hṛdayaṁ viṣṇu viṣṇosca hṛdayaṁ śivaḥ

Jay! Beautiful verse.

From my basic sanskrit knowledge I can get more or less the meaning out of it. Could you provide the proper translation for me and for those that don't understand it? :)

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

there is a similar verse in the Mahabharata. Krishna describes Shiva as narayanatmako jneyah, to be understood as of the same nature as Narayana (12.328.19).
And Narayana himself says to Shiva, yas tvam vetti sa mam vetti yas tvam anu sa mam anu/navayor antaram kimcit,
'one who knows you knows myself; one who follows you follows me. There is no difference between us.' (12.328.64). These verses are to be found in the Nara-Narayaniyam, a passage of the Mahabharata that teaches Vaishnavism.

Jai Shree Krishna

[SOV]

namaste,

I think this thing(shiva is vaishnava) was first started by ISKCON. The Madhvas regard shiva as a diety of tamo guna and all his puranas are of that nature and also the demons pray to shiva. In the madhva tradition, there is a gradation for the dieties and I don't know where rudra stands. Even when they come to a shiva temple, they sing about hari and add this-'sarva deva namaskaraha keshavam pratigacchati' which means, whom ever you pray to, it goes to keshava. All may not do so, though.

[rajputistan]

Lol. Are people so tired with competition that they started comparing between tridevas?

Facts:
1. Lord Ram(Vishnu) were Shiv bhakt.
2. Hunuman(Shiva) is Ram bhakt.

So it's rather stupid to say which tri-deva is inferior to whom. Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh are called 3 principle form of God.

Simplest answer I can think up of ;)

[smaranam]

Namaste

The Supreme Lord expands into svaMsha rUpa as well as transforms Himself (like milk to curds) - surely there is a reason He soes that ? In different contexts they play different roles. The curds is required for contact with material world. given a vision of how They are each other's Soul, Heart, Self and all that yet Two Forms.


Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 12.13.16
nimna-gānāḿ yathā gańgā
devānām acyuto yathā
vaiṣṇavānāḿ yathā śambhuḥ
purāṇānām idam tathā
SYNONYMS
nimna-gānām — of rivers flowing down to the sea; yathā — as; gańgā — the Ganges; devānām — of all deities; acyutaḥ — the infallible Supreme Personality of Godhead; yathā — as; vaiṣṇavānām — of devotees of Lord Viṣṇu; yathā — as; śambhuḥ — Śiva; purāṇānām — of Purāṇas; idam — this; tathā — similarly.
TRANSLATION
Just as the Gańgā is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Śambhu [Śiva] the greatest of Vaiṣṇavas, so Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the greatest of all Purāṇas.

Sri Brahma-samhita 5.45
kshiram yatha dadhi vikara-visesha-yogat
sanjayate na hi tatah prithag asti hetoh
yah sambhutam api tatha samupaiti karyad
govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami
SYNONYMS
kshiram -- milk; yatha -- as; dadhi -- yogurt; vikara-visesha -- of a special transformation; yogat -- by the application; sanjayate -- is transformed into; na -- not; hi -- indeed; tatah -- from the milk; prithak -- separated; asti -- is; hetoh -- which is the cause; yah -- who; sambhutam -- the nature of Lord Siva; api -- also; tatha -- thus; samupaiti -- accepts; karyat -- for the matter of some particular business; govindam -- Govinda; adi-purusham -- the original person; tam -- Him; aham -- I; bhajami -- worship.
TRANSLATION
Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

----------

Ram and KrushNa worshipped Shiva obviously, and Rukmini and the Gopis worshipped Gauri. How can VishNu worship Himself and Lakshmi Herself ?
Avatars worship to set an example for the world to follow. Who else but the closest to One's Dearest Heart, Soul, yet not Their Self-Same Self, would they worship ? Shiva is Highest VaishNav just as Radha is Highest premika. Somebody has to be the Highest VaishNav right ? The Lord gives His prototyes.


Orthodox Sri Vaishnavas are the worst in regard to Shiva, many of them would not even step into a Shiva temple, while the other vaishnavas do worship Shiva besides Vishnu.
Yes, that is because the Shiva in those temples is treated as THE Supreme while treating anyone but Hari as Supreme is an aparAdh for them - they have no problem praising Shiva as a VaishNav. Whereas, Gaudiya VaishNav worship shiv linga in one place - but as h. vaishnav, and also Shiva as Gopeshwar Mahadev (Shiva who turned into a gopi becs He wanted to enter rAs lila). Barsana and other places in Vrundavan have an all day festival for Mahashivratri with bel leaves and all.


The Madhvas regard shiva as a diety of tamo guna and all his puranas are of that nature and also the demons pray to shiva.
Aha ! And guess who takes the heat for that ? ISKCON. It is so easy to jump onto the ISKCON bandwagon. I am not their member by the way. If their is any entity i belong to it is MurliManohar He ShyAm Giridhar namAmi KrushNam namAmi KrushNam.

praNAm

[Sahasranama]

Ram and KrushNa worshipped Shiva obviously, and Rukmini and the Gopis worshipped Gauri. How can VishNu worship Himself and Lakshmi Herself ?
Avatars worship to set an example for the world to follow. Who else but the closest to One's Dearest Heart, Soul, yet not Their Self-Same Self, would they worship ? Shiva is Highest VaishNav just as Radha is Highest premika. Somebody has to be the Highest VaishNav right ? The Lord gives His prototyes.
This logic is not goint to work, smaranam. Ramachandra also worshipped Narasimha. That refutes your argument that Shiva can't be Vishnu, because otherwise a Vishnu avatar would not worship him.

[smaranam]

Namaste Sahasranama,
Narsimha has always been the paradoxical exception, with His saumya(gentle)-ugra(ferocious) rUpa. However, please see these words along with what i said earlier in the same post :

The Supreme Lord expands into svaMsha rUpa as well as transforms Himself (like milk to curds) - surely there is a reason He does that ? In different contexts they play different roles. The curds is required for contact with material world. given a vision of how They are each other's Soul, Heart, Self and all that yet Two Forms.

I have received answers to this in meditation - when i was not even seeking them. Just as a surprise. They are simultaneously same and different - at the time i had no clue of purana details or achintya bheda abheda for it to bias "my mind". I was thinking the least about Shiva. It was all a gracious surprise from KrushNa. He showed He is the golden complexioned Buddha, a purple ShivA, whose face at one point looked like RanganAth... and finally there is Shiva (laughing) - and there is VishNu (gentle expression).
He(KrushNa) is all of this - was the message.

So Shiva is a ROLE. In certain contexts. For devotees of VishNu/KrushNa, He is the highest VaishNav (SB12.13.16) - Lord's own prototype for us to follow, just as Radha is highest devotee - mahAbhAv prototype for us to follow.

It matters not for advaita - as everything is the same - just erase the board.

Roles played by Shiva
1. GuNa avatar
2. Highest VaishNav
3. Leader of group X, group Y or group Z
4. Gopeshwar Mahadev - turned into a gopi to get entry into rAs lila

There is a reason why He is trishul-damru-dhar and not shankha-chakra-gadAdhar. Why He is jatA-mukut vyAghrAmbar-dhara (matted hair wearing tiger skin) and not Moramukut pitambar sohe gale vaijayanti mAlA (peacock-feather, yellow pitambar, flower garland)
Why the Ganga does not emerge from His Lotus Feet but He volunteers to let it cascade on His head (from VishNu's Lotus Feet) and flows down to bhumi ...

[smaranam]

there is a similar verse in the Mahabharata. Krishna describes Shiva as narayanatmako jneyah, to be understood as of the same nature as Narayana (12.328.19).
And Narayana himself says to Shiva, yas tvam vetti sa mam vetti yas tvam anu sa mam anu/navayor antaram kimcit,
'one who knows you knows myself; one who follows you follows me. There is no difference between us.' (12.328.64).

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaste,

This is tadAtmictA between Govind and Shambhu.

SB 9.4.63 KrushNa says : "I am completely under the control of My devotees, indeed, I am not at all independent. Because My devotees are completely devoid of material desires, I sit only within the cores of their hearts. What to speak of My devotees, even those who are devotees of My devotee are very dear to Me."

There is no diff betN Govind and Shambhu yet ...
Shambhu (curds) is the transformation of Govind (milk) for a purpose. BramhaSamhita 5.45 spoken by Lord BramhA.

One is shankha-chakra-gadhAdhar , the other is trishula-damaru-dhar.

There is no diff betN Radha and KrushNa, yet KrushNa is Shaktiman Radha is Shakti. Same contradictory verses can be brought about Radha and KrushNa - i know this is a bit of apples Vs oranges, but still.

We don't worship Shiva or Radha as the Supreme - just because They are the "heart and soul and atma" of KrushNa. KrushNa is KrushNa. period. One-pointed buddhi-yogam BG chap 2.

...

[smaranam]

The puranas are often accused (by Arya Samajis) of creating disputes between followers of different Gods. But actually, the puranas are very clear:

शिवाय विष्णु रूपाय शिव रूपाय विष्णवे
शिवस्य हृदयं विष्णु विष्णोस्च हृदयं शिवः

śivāya viṣṇu rūpāya śiva rūpāya viṣṇave
śivasya hṛdayaṁ viṣṇu viṣṇosca hṛdayaṁ śivaḥ


This means the form of VishNu (the Person) is all-auspicious (shivAya)
and
The form of Shiva (The Person) is all-pervading (vishNave)

2nd line: "They are, and live in, each other's heart" - so what's the big deal ? KrushNa says that so many times about all His devotees too - in Bhagavad Gita (chap 10) and Bhagvatam. SB 9.4.68.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

if you read OP, you will realize the question was,what do other vaishnava other than Iskcon think of Lord Shiva in relation to Lord Vishnu, so your quating brahma smahita an obscure text no one other then Gaudya follow is not very useful.

Let us not make this another Shiva V Vishnu debate


Namaste,

This is tadAtmictA between Govind and Shambhu.

SB 9.4.63 KrushNa says : "I am completely under the control of My devotees, indeed, I am not at all independent. Because My devotees are completely devoid of material desires, I sit only within the cores of their hearts. What to speak of My devotees, even those who are devotees of My devotee are very dear to Me."

There is no diff betN Govind and Shambhu yet ...
Shambhu (curds) is the transformation of Govind (milk) for a purpose. BramhaSamhita 5.45 spoken by Lord BramhA.

One is shankha-chakra-gadhAdhar , the other is trishula-damaru-dhar.

There is no diff betN Radha and KrushNa, yet KrushNa is Shaktiman Radha is Shakti. Same contradictory verses can be brought about Radha and KrushNa - i know this is a bit of apples Vs oranges, but still.

We don't worship Shiva or Radha as the Supreme - just because They are the "heart and soul and atma" of KrushNa. KrushNa is KrushNa. period. One-pointed buddhi-yogam BG chap 2.

...

Again it is not about one pointed worship either.

you will also find sects that follow Radha and give her the utmost worship.

I can quote from the same Puran where Vishnu says there is no different between us three.
also from the same puran that even Vishnu can not understand your (Shiva) glories.

It is very important to note in chapter 10 in the Gita Lord Krishna say people choose to worship me in various different way.

And when Arjun asks;

How may I know You, O Lord, by constant contemplation? In what form (of manifestation) are You to be thought of by me, O Lord? (10.17)

Rest is up to individual to accept what he is saying in his reply

Jai Shree Krishna

[Loki]

Nietschze once stated that the only God worth following is a dancing God...I often think of this when I consider Shiva...

I pray she's not a brown recluse. Just ftr, as a listener I have often marveled that India speaks the best english, there's no accounting for that, just a spiritual thought.

There's no accounting for your art and dance being the most appropriate down in this globe.

Although I wish you would all not be so apart. But I think you untouchable as a culture. Obviously, the spectrum of personality pervades all cultures, and there is much that is not good, but as a whole the product offered, the diet, and the civility of the language, even when translated into english is unmatched, and I consider myself somewhat objective, and a fairly decent judge.