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issacnewton
22 June 2011, 11:30 AM
Hi

Here I am going to suggest something. Islam was a head ache to hindus. But now it has become a head ache to people in the west too. In india , there are
too many muslims, so some "solutions"(:D ) offered to this problem by some radical hindus , are just thoughtless.

I have a non violent solution to the problem. Don't buy from muslims and dont do any economic activity with them. I make sure that when i go to shop, I make sure that the owner is not muslim. Its easy actually. Muslims like to show their islam on their sleeves. If some muslims are clean shaven, then check the shop. If he is hindu, there will be some god's picture in the shop.
Banias like their various gods :D . Next , muslim shops will not have indian names. Either they will be openly islamic names, in which case its easy to see that the shop is owned by the muslim. Or they will be english names like "Modern hair saloon " , "Majestic traders" etc. In this case, check the signs in and outside the shop. If its written 786 somewhere outside, then its muslim owned. Lastly , check the mannerisms of the person. If you have lived in India long enough, we can figure out a muslim. This economic boycott is non violent as well as very effective. Unfortunately most of the hindus don't realize this. Even RSS thinks that Islam is peaceful , only muslims are the problem. RSS has been criticized by hardline hindu authors like ram swarup on this. Belgian author Koenraad Elst (self described secular humanist) also has written about the contradictory nature of the RSS.

So, at least , the hindus here at HDF can make a pledge to buy un islamic. It would be our little constructive move to stop the monster called Islam.

I hope my views don't sound too extreme to the members here. I am only proposing a non violent and ethical solution to this problem

thanks

Jainarayan
22 June 2011, 11:46 AM
Would you refuse to be pulled out of a burning building by a Muslim? I have to ask why your hatred runs so deep. It seems pretty adharmic to me.

Sahasranama
22 June 2011, 11:50 AM
I am sorry to say, but this idea is stupid. If Hindus start boycotting muslims, muslims will start boycotting Hindus and society will become seggregated. I don't think either Ram Swarup or Koenraad Elst would approve of such an idea. There is indeed a problem with Islam, the ideology itself. But it is not solved by banning a certain group of people from society.

issacnewton
22 June 2011, 12:00 PM
Sahasranama

Islam is the new communism. Fighting ideology is good idea. But unfortunately that will not suffice. Like fighting mere ideology of communism or maoism did not suffice.

Jainarayan
22 June 2011, 12:01 PM
There is indeed a problem with Islam

Yes, the religious fundamental fanatics in any group. Remember, Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu. No group is above reproach.

Jainarayan
22 June 2011, 12:06 PM
Would you refuse to be pulled out of a burning building by a Muslim? I have to ask why your hatred runs so deep. It seems pretty adharmic to me.



Islam is the new communism. Fighting ideology is good idea. But unfortunately that will not suffice. Like fighting mere ideology of communism or maoism did not suffice.

You haven't answered my question:

"Would you refuse to be pulled out of a burning building by a Muslim?"

sanjaya
26 July 2011, 07:59 PM
Would you refuse to be pulled out of a burning building by a Muslim? I have to ask why your hatred runs so deep. It seems pretty adharmic to me.

Yeah, you'd think so. However, I'm not so sure how much I can criticize him. The problem with Islam is that we as Hindus are being asked to tolerate something that doesn't tolerate us back. The recent bombings in India demonstrate that Islam does pose a threat to us (someone please correct me if non-Islamic groups took responsibility for this). Now, I'm loathe to judge anyone personally based on labels; I prefer to get to know a person. Thus I'm not sure I could pledge some all out boycott of Muslims. However, I do think that Muslims are dangerous, and I try to avoid them as best as I can. Yes, I know I'm generalizing stereotypes to all Muslims, and I'm probably avoiding some decent people. But I'm probably avoiding more people who want to kill me just for being Hindu. I don't like this sort of thing. But how else do you deal with such crazy people?

Jainarayan
26 July 2011, 08:35 PM
It's a no-brainer that Islam as a whole has a bad rap, and probably deservedly so, at least in India. I've learned a lot and had my eyes opened in the past month or two... things I just never knew or saw, looking through the lens of a western upbringing. So I don't want to rewind to the earlier part of this thread. :grouphug:

However, I have known Muslims who are the salt of the earth. One is a doctor who left prayers to come to the hospital for an emergency; one was an upstairs neighbor who kept feeding me; a woman in full black hijab who sat in a waiting room with me watching a newscast of the 9/11 attacks, weeping and saying "that is not our religion!". :dunno: And then I knew the nastiest, most arrogant, most stubborn and obnoxious Moroccan Muslim you could ever have the misfortune of knowing. :banghead: So there's good and bad in all groups.

I think wholesale boycott and avoidance of a whole people is a little over the top. The US went through it with "Whites Only" and "Colored Only" restaurants, bathrooms and even drinking fountains. I'd just prefer to avoid the individual, like my Moroccan co-worker, but I still had a Muslim doctor (and a Pakistani he was, at that :p). But if someone is going to drag my sorry butt out of a burning building or find my lost child, or give me CPR I don't care if the person is Martian, Vulcan, gay, straight, Muslim, or even Catholic. I'll deal with my prejudices later.

But let's say you only found out later that the person was Muslim? Do you rush back into the burning building? Of course not, now that's bordering on silly (no, it got its passport stamped). It's really just a thought experiment, because you probably won't know who the person is.

For the record (and to have some twisted fun tweaking people), I've also asked vehemently anti-gay Christians if they'd rather burn to death than be pulled out of a fire by a gay firefighter; or refuse to have a gay cop go look for their lost child, or given CPR by a gay EMT. They said they'd stand by their principles. OK, so do you want bbq sauce on your ribs. :Roll: Again though, what if they only find out later somehow, that the firefighter, EMT or cop is gay?

Stereotypes can work against you, especially when it's you who are on the line! Know what I mean?

NayaSurya
26 July 2011, 09:12 PM
Once when I was in college to become a nurse there was a story about a ICU RN killing his patients.

Now, many folks over time came through this just fine...but every now and then a certain person caught his eye and...

Would you allow a muslim to save your life from a burning building?

Well...would you have allowed this man to treat you if you had a heart attack? I knew of a man on the fire dept for 30 years and molested his own sons....

We really can't say who are these ones around us coming to our aid.

Let's extrapolate this to anyone who may have ill feelings toward us...such as christians. Firstly, let me say..if I were 13 years older I would not pull the fire alarm.:p

But, I say everyday we have unknown hands upon us. Our doctors, lawyers...the IT guy we call in the middle of the night because we spill a diet big red soda upon our laptop. But, you see these aren't social situations...they are on a business level. Just as my husband suffers greatly at work because his bosses are all very very staunch right wing xtian and constantly berate "godless peoples".

Anyone of the sorts could also save you from that same burning building...only the next day to pray for your "wretched soul" because you are bound to burn in "hell"....and the next day you may find yourself praying to Beloved...thanking Him for those Hands, which He owns, that saved you.:p

There is really no way to stop buying from muslims, any more than I could stop supporting xtians and their families. But, for the record I do not support groups openly with xtian agenda to convert or other such activity, such as boyscouts and girlscouts...

Once I was helping a neighbor sew patches onto her sons uniform and found in his pocket a pledge to xtian god and jesus...when I asked what it was...she told me the pledge he made when he enter cubscouts. I asked...well what if he wasn't xtian? She said..."Who in the ##$#*#@ would not be xtian?"

Never bought a cookie after that.:p

Oh and I wanted to add...everytime we fill up the tank of our cars or motorbikes...somewhere...someone selling oil just got richer. I think it would be near impossible to really do anything that would have a impact on such a large random group of humans.

WTyler
26 July 2011, 09:55 PM
Ah, yes.

A marvelous approach..you know, because Muslims shouldn't have a way to raise their families, too..

Muslims shouldn't be able to pay their bills..

Muslims shouldn't be able to live in homes.

I wasn't aware that this level of intolerance and down right ignorance existed in these forums. You have saddened me. People are people are people.

You ask if the owner is muslim of a business? I am not muslim but if you came into a store I worked with and asked if the owner was muslim, I would ask you to leave. That is sick.. for the love of all things divine, go and meditate upon yourself and who you are, sit down and contemplate what you have done to yourself by being so stuck in the world of forms.

Yes, there are bad muslims, and guess what there are bad hindus as well, bad christians, bad atheists, bad everything. Every religion has their sect of terrorists, and their sect of fanatical fundamentalists.. but that doesn't mean we should judge and bury them into the streets.

Your cheeky smiley faces you used in your post were even more disheartening. Although it is a non-violent solution..well, it's not. A national boycott would just starve and de-home muslims all because you can't tolerate them.

Were you really expecting a noble response? Were you really expecting a letter be written to government officials due to your "ground breaking" idea? Ugh..

You have broken my heart, brother.

Jainarayan
26 July 2011, 10:08 PM
But, for the record I do not support groups openly with xtian agenda to convert or other such activity, such as boyscouts and girlscouts...

Once I was helping a neighbor sew patches onto her sons uniform and found in his pocket a pledge to xtian god and jesus...when I asked what it was...she told me the pledge he made when he enter cubscouts. I asked...well what if he wasn't xtian? She said..."Who in the ##$#*#@ would not be xtian?"

Never bought a cookie after that.:p

You just had to get me started on the BSA (Boy Scouts of America)! :p

I absolutely, categorically, unequivocally refuse to support the BSA. Private organization or not, as ruled by the US Supreme Court, I find their exclusionary practices abominable. Well, if they can refuse membership to certain people, I can refuse them my money.

Occasionally they are at the supermarket bagging groceries, and asking for donations. As soon as I put my groceries on the belt I tell the cashier "I will bag". I won't even let them bag for me, thinking I am going to give them a donation. There will be a blizzard in Aruba before that happens.

Ramakrishna
26 July 2011, 10:27 PM
Namaste all,

I agree with the other posters. This would be an impolite, adharmic, and just plain stupid thing to do. Radical Islam definitely poses a threat to India and the rest of the world, and I would even say that the world would be a much better place if Islam never existed (along with the other Abrahamic religions). But going around boycotting and just discriminating against all Muslims is not the right thing to do. All of the Muslims that I personally know are polite and genuinely good people. I wouldn't want to disassociate from them. Again, there are a lot of things wrong with Islam, I am fundamentally against it, and there are extremist terrorists out there who have committed violence and will continue to do so. But most of the Muslims in the world are not extremist terrorists, and they shouldn't be discriminated against.

Jai Sri Ram

issacnewton
27 July 2011, 05:34 AM
Most of the people responding here are westerners or staying there. They
have no idea what islam is. Sadly , lot of violence is going to occur in western countries too. They ARE there. But there are courageous people out there in
some western countries trying to wake people. follow this blog by robert
spencer , a decent chap ,


www.jihadwatch.org

and about your argument that even some hindus are violent , some
christians are blah blah blah .....remember that islam is very different ballgame
altogether. you can find some nice muslims., but islam inherently
is violent. its form of arab cultural imperialism. a far more insidious imperialism compared to even european colonialism. read the book by nobel laureate V.S.Naipaul
"Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey" It describes the journey of the author in non-arab islamic countries and author keenly observes how there are tendencies among these people to disown their pre-islamic heritage. In Pakistan , for example , many people invent arab ancestries for their
families. What happened to these non-arab people , will happen to all those
who become muslim . There is tremendous pressure upon you to conform to
some arab cultural norms. Thats just one aspect of islam. I am not a scholar
of this. But we have to stop this madness. What I had suggested was a good
solution. I hope people open up their eyes. At least for hindus in India , this is
important. I dont know about the west :rolleyes:

nitinsharma
27 July 2011, 06:26 AM
Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life, a government.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.
Islamisation begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.
Here's how it works:


As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:
United States — Muslim 0.6%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1.8%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%



At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%




From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago — Muslim 5.8%





At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 15%




After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of nonbelievers of all other religions (including nonconforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of sharia law as a weapon, and jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%




After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is ongoing in:
Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%



100% will usher in the peace of “Dar-es-Salaam” — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the madrassas are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:
Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 100%



Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.
“Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel.” — Leon Uris, “The Haj”
It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by sharia law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrassas. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.
Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.

nitinsharma
27 July 2011, 06:34 AM
Most of the people responding here are westerners or staying there. They
have no idea what islam is. Sadly , lot of violence is going to occur in western countries too. They ARE there.

This post is spot on.Its easy to say nice,pleasing things and being politically correct,but how can you(being a hindu) even for a second stand for a religion which puts an obligation on each of its adherents to try and proselytize????
Islam is by definition anti-hindu.

BTW,I say that in living a 40% muslim city.Can't wait to migrate:D.

Jainarayan
27 July 2011, 11:28 AM
Namaste all,

I agree with the other posters. This would be an impolite, adharmic, and just plain stupid thing to do. Radical Islam definitely poses a threat to India and the rest of the world, and I would even say that the world would be a much better place if Islam never existed (along with the other Abrahamic religions).

Feeling the dichotomy I do now between what I felt as a (nominal) Christian and now as a Hindu, I cannot disagree with you at all. Christianity and Islam have done more harm to people's psyches and civilizations than anything I can imagine. I don't have a gripe with modern Judaism because Jews have a live and let live attitude. Modern Judaism keeps to itself. They're into themselves awaiting the messiah. Not unlike the Dwarves in The Lord of the Rings, according to Elrond: "they hide in their mountains seeking riches; they care nothing for the troubles of others".

And wouldn't it be hypocritical and just plain un-Hindu to not see God in even Muslims? Isn't a basic tenet of Sanatana Dharma to see that Brahman is All and pervades all, even Muslims and Christians? I know that's a hard pill to swallow for many people, but, well there you have it. Maybe it's our dharma and karma to deal with these feelings.

Jainarayan
27 July 2011, 11:30 AM
They
have no idea what islam is.

Say that to the survivors, rescue workers and families of all those lost in the 9/11 attacks. You will not be able to say it again with your own teeth in your mouth. I think you need to stop while you're behind. Clearly Islam and Christianity are a problem. But it's the height of non-Hinduism to revel in and propagate such hatred, no matter how bad one despises those religions and philosophies. I call you out as being no better than they are by fomenting and propagating hatred. And that's the last comment I'll make to you, as reading your posts hurts my soul.

NayaSurya
27 July 2011, 11:43 AM
My Mother always say...in for a penny...in for a pound. So here goes.:p

Islam is a virus to me, as is evangelical xtian movement. They are trying so hard to spread across planet to wipe each other out. I think the only thing in the way of this is their own natural adversary...

For without the crusades...places like Spain...Andalus...would still be Muslim. Where they drug the native Spanish out and killed the men and put the pretty young women on boats and shipped them back to muslim men. The xtians fought back and won the land back...and then they lost it again...and then finally got it back...after tremendous blood shed.

So here's the crux of it all.

My home has become SO PC (politically correct) about some religion, because the xtian feel like that if they begin to say islam is bad...then others will speak out about xtianity. They are also afraid of muslims retribution. Even on the media...the View women. When Bill O. said 9/11 was done by islamic terrorists. Two of the women LEFT stage!

Refusing to come back! Barbara W. immediately apologized for their ridiculous behavior because he had not yelled...nor been rude...simply stated his beliefs.

Now with this said, I know the deep deep attrocities of Kashmir and muslims...the blood of innocent Hindu spilled.

and this post above...how islam takes over is absolutely true.

So some here in the west, despite this cultural pressure of political correctness and ignorance know the truth. Islam is not a religion, it's a politcal, social and religious set of laws...a government system.

Now, as for our dharma and karma to accept them as Beloved.

Yes, yes yes! They are Beloved.

But! Each of us have different Dharma and Karma to unfold...some are sent here to be soldier!

Arjuna could not sit on his hands while world was falling apart!

Some are sent here to fight this barbarian and keep it at bay to protect the Truth, The Light...and the Home of Dharma.

It's not pleasant...just as often being a parent keep us from Being more than We can Be.

It means we tread...waist deep into this drama to do this precious needed work...but thankfully it happens.

If it were not for the Arjuna's of this realm....dare I say...none of us would be free to find this Truth.

So thank a soldier of Dharma today!<3

In the end, I say...do what your Dharma dictates...do as you must to protect this Home of Dharma, Beloved India.

I will pray for your safety, all of you<3 But, with such a Divine Duty...I know you will not fail.<3

Jainarayan
27 July 2011, 11:48 AM
Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life, a government.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Isn't this the desire of Hindutva, to establish a wholly Hindu nation at all levels? If I'm wrong, for which there is an excellent likelihood, I'm open to correction.

Seemingly all of these are attempts (some completely successful, like Iran, Saudi Arabia) to create theocracies. Right wing Christian fundamentalcases want the same thing in the US. They want a wholly Christian nation.

Jainarayan
27 July 2011, 12:02 PM
Islam is a virus to me, as is evangelical xtian movement. They are trying so hard to spread across planet to wipe each other out. I think the only thing in the way of this is their own natural adversary...

And unfortunately I don't see either of them disappearing any time soon. Would that this were a case of starting a wildfire to stop a wildfire.


For without the crusades...places like Spain...Andalus...would still be Muslim. Where they drug the native Spanish out and killed the men and put the pretty young women on boats and shipped them back to muslim men. The xtians fought back and won the land back...and then they lost it again...and then finally got it back...after tremendous blood shed.

Ah yes, the Reconquista by Ferdinand and Isabela. But consider that when the Moors were kicked out, that vacuum was filled by an overly zealous Roman Catholic Church that launched the Inquisition. From the frying pan into the fire!?


So some here in the west, despite this cultural pressure of political correctness and ignorance know the truth. Islam is not a religion, it's a politcal, social and religious set of laws...a government system.

Yes, consider the Nigerian woman who was stoned because she was raped. Abominable, but Sharia law required it, though Nigeria is not entirely ruled by Sharia law, only certain parts.

WTyler
27 July 2011, 06:43 PM
My issue with the subject matter was rather simple, though it was on a separate page and I'm not sure if it was read. I am only saying that a boycott would leave them homeless, unemployed and hungry which is just as bad, if not worse, as some of the things they do.

issacnewton
28 July 2011, 03:20 AM
And that's the last comment I'll make to you, as reading your posts hurts my soul.

bye frank :bowdown: your reductionist posts bother lot of souls....

TatTvamAsi
28 July 2011, 04:47 AM
Isn't this the desire of Hindutva, to establish a wholly Hindu nation at all levels? If I'm wrong, for which there is an excellent likelihood, I'm open to correction.

Seemingly all of these are attempts (some completely successful, like Iran, Saudi Arabia) to create theocracies. Right wing Christian fundamentalcases want the same thing in the US. They want a wholly Christian nation.

Don't ever use that word in such a disparaging tone! Hindutva is HINDU-NESS! Every Hindu should be an embodiment of Hindutva or Hindu-tattva! Worthless anti-Hindus have hijacked that word and made it a dirty word much akin to "nationalist". Gandhi, despite being blind to Hindus' suffering, was a consummate nationalist. Scumbags in and out of India disparage Hindus by calling us "Hindu NATIONALISTS" as if that's something 'bad' or something to look down upon! It is absolutely NOT. Hindu-tattva or Hindutva is about Hindu culture.

Please re-read what you've written. Is there anything WRONG or concerning with a nation that is wholly Hindu in culture, practice, and action? India was such a country and is still so in many ways. It is being slowly chipped away by untouchable vermin (Abrahamics and Communists) who can't stand the beauty of Sanatana Dharma.

And, when you say "theocratic state", do you realize that if India were declared a Hindu nation, it would be wholly secular and peaceful? Those who wish to cause us harm (Abrahamics/Communists) will be purged but we have coexisted with everyone for thousands of years. A Hindu country is not the same as a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim country; Hinduism, by nature, is secular. Thus, a "theocratic" Hindu state is exactly what we want. As a Hindu, that is what you should want as well!

India, hopefully sooner rather than later, will be declared a Hindu nation for Hindus, by Hindus, and of Hindus. Those who don't like that can leave.

Regarding "isaacnewton's" post, I think that would be a good idea but it is very hard to implement. Hindus are just too stupid to act together. If we could even get half of the Hindu populace to vote together, as Subramaniam Swamy stated, BJP would come into power with no problems at all. Hindus are too busy watching Katrina Kaif remove her clothes and Salman Khan seduce Hindu women to bother about their country. I would laugh out loud at Hindus if I weren't one.

Believer
28 July 2011, 11:44 AM
Don't ever use that word in such a disparaging tone! Hindutva is HINDU-NESS! Every Hindu should be an embodiment of Hindutva or Hindu-tattva! Worthless anti-Hindus have hijacked that word and made it a dirty word much akin to "nationalist". Gandhi, despite being blind to Hindus' suffering, was a consummate nationalist. Scumbags in and out of India disparage Hindus by calling us "Hindu NATIONALISTS" as if that's something 'bad' or something to look down upon! It is absolutely NOT. Hindu-tattva or Hindutva is about Hindu culture.

Hear ye! Hear Ye!

Many Westerners, with no knowledge of the Hindu history, of the Hindu suffering or of the undercurrents destroying the Indian nation, just like to mouth off and post whatever comes to their insensitive simple minds, instead of learning about the ground reality. I could say a lot more, but for now, I will hold my tongue.

Jainarayan
28 July 2011, 12:07 PM
Don't ever use that word in such a disparaging tone! Hindutva is HINDU-NESS!

Where's the disparagement? I asked a question and asked to be corrected if I was wrong. I think you should re-read:


Isn't this the desire of Hindutva, to establish a wholly Hindu nation at all levels? If I'm wrong, for which there is an excellent likelihood, I'm open to correction.

Again you took a defensive and snarky tone with me, for which there was no reason.

Jainarayan
28 July 2011, 12:11 PM
instead of learning about the ground reality.

That's what asking for correction and education means. And that education and correction can be done without a defensive and a snarky tone.

zenvicky
28 July 2011, 02:15 PM
Read this...

Levy on Amarnath Yatra: A faith is being targeted

http://content.msn.co.in/MSNContribute/Story.aspx?PageID=1db3a335-f748-48a6-9edf-c14358a368f1

Aum

nitinsharma
29 July 2011, 07:15 AM
Hindus are too busy watching Katrina Kaif remove her clothes and Salman Khan seduce Hindu women to bother about their country

Hear!Hear!

DEATH TO BOLLYWOOD!

DEATH TO BOLLYWOOD!

sanjaya
29 July 2011, 06:00 PM
Isn't this the desire of Hindutva, to establish a wholly Hindu nation at all levels? If I'm wrong, for which there is an excellent likelihood, I'm open to correction.

Seemingly all of these are attempts (some completely successful, like Iran, Saudi Arabia) to create theocracies. Right wing Christian fundamentalcases want the same thing in the US. They want a wholly Christian nation.

Well, let's be careful to make a distinction here. First, Hindus have a fairly solid historic claim to India. India is the birthplace of Hinduism, and until the Mogul invasion the country was populated by Hindus and practitioners offspring Dharmic religions such as Buddhism and Jainism. This is similar (stronger, actually) to European nations which have a historically Christian tradition. Everyone here in America is up in arms about separation of church and state. The legal basis for this can be found in early American documents such as the Constitution. But in nations like Britain, there's no discussion, since Christianity is the official state religion. Indeed, I think that those Hindus who reject pure secularism instead seek for a similar situation in India as what the British have.

In Britain there is a state church, civil ceremonies involve Christian prayers, and public schools teach religion with an emphasis on Christianity. Isn't this what many of us on HDF want for India (obviously with Hinduism rather than Christianity). Nobody here is looking to force Hinduism on anybody in India. But we figure that since our ancestors have historically been Hindus, this should be reflected in modern India. If religious freedom were granted to everyone, I see no great injustice done in the government recognizing Hinduism as the official religion of India. The ancient Indian King Ashoka, though Hindu and Buddhist, set up a policy of religious tolerance which in the West would be considered ahead of his time.

The problem with comparing Hindu nationalism to Islamic nationalism lies in the difference between the core religious teachings. Hinduism teaches us to let each individual explore his own faith; it's difficult to pervert this into intolerance (granted, such has been achieved before). Islamic teaching, on the other hand, contains all that is necessary to breed intolerance and hatred for unbelievers. Furthermore, it teaches conquest. Even ardent Hindu nationals have no desire to convert other nations to Hinduism. Islam, on the other hand, preaches holy Jihad and conversion of unbelieving nations to the Islamic faith. I'll take a Hindu nationalist over an Islamist any day.

Jainarayan
29 July 2011, 11:22 PM
Namaste sanjaya, and thanks for the explanation. It's clearer now. If I understand it correctly, it's not totally unlike Israel, Arab and Palestinian conflicts aside. Israel is a completely secular nation, but deeply rooted in Judaism as a culture. Let's forget for a moment the God who wanted all the inhabitants of Jericho massacred, and disobedient children stoned to death. It's not a theocracy and doesn't proselytize, whereas Christianity and Islam advocate theocracies and have no tolerance for other beliefs.

In this case, because India is overwhelmingly Hindu it stands to reason it would be/should be/is a Hindu nation, though secular and not a theocracy. With the different denominations, sects and flavors of Hinduism I dont know how that would be possible anyway. But that's just a thought experiment.

sanjaya
01 August 2011, 03:26 PM
Namaste sanjaya, and thanks for the explanation. It's clearer now. If I understand it correctly, it's not totally unlike Israel, Arab and Palestinian conflicts aside. Israel is a completely secular nation, but deeply rooted in Judaism as a culture. Let's forget for a moment the God who wanted all the inhabitants of Jericho massacred, and disobedient children stoned to death. It's not a theocracy and doesn't proselytize, whereas Christianity and Islam advocate theocracies and have no tolerance for other beliefs.

In this case, because India is overwhelmingly Hindu it stands to reason it would be/should be/is a Hindu nation, though secular and not a theocracy. With the different denominations, sects and flavors of Hinduism I dont know how that would be possible anyway. But that's just a thought experiment.

I suppose it is somewhat like the Israeli state as well. I'm wary of using that example simply because the Jews were out of Palestine for 1800 years before coming back and forcing out the local population, unlike India where we've always lived in the same land. Of course there are all the stories of God ordering massacres too. But since the Bible is made up, I suppose no one can be faulted for that.

Anyway, I've found that Hindu nationalism, if it can even be called that, isn't as militant as other forms of nationalism, and it certainly doesn't propagate itself elsewhere. That's why I don't find as much of a similarity between Hindu nationalism and Islam.

Jainarayan
01 August 2011, 04:16 PM
I suppose it is somewhat like the Israeli state as well. I'm wary of using that example simply because the Jews were out of Palestine for 1800 years before coming back and forcing out the local population, unlike India where we've always lived in the same land. Of course there are all the stories of God ordering massacres too. But since the Bible is made up, I suppose no one can be faulted for that.

Yes, that's all true too. Israel, whether modern or ancient has a checkered past wrt to the indigenous peoples living in the area. That's why I added the disclaimer of "Arab and Palestinian conflicts aside". If not for that, it's a nation steeped in a religious culture, but strictly secular. Turkey is also adamant about remaining secular in government and civil matters, though it is predominately Muslim in culture. You really don't hear too much about Turkey.


Anyway, I've found that Hindu nationalism, if it can even be called that, isn't as militant as other forms of nationalism, and it certainly doesn't propagate itself elsewhere. That's why I don't find as much of a similarity between Hindu nationalism and Islam.

For sure. Islam wants total conversion of "infidels". Some Hindus don't want us converts! :D Maybe "Hindu nationalism" has become a buzzword, being used incorrectly and/or overused... sensationalized.

saidevo
03 August 2011, 09:38 PM
Subramanian Swamy's crusade against aggressive Islam

Some interesting developments:
Right to freedom of speech is sancrosant – Harvard University on complaint against Dr.Swamy
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/right-to-freedom-of-speech-is-sancrosant-harvard-university-on-complaint-against-dr-swamy/

Analysis: How to wipe out Islamic terror
Subramanian Swamy | Saturday, July 16, 2011
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/comment_analysis-how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror_1566203-all

Confront Religious Bigotry!
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~slam/petitions/swamy.php

IMHO, the common Muslim may not be a supporter of their religious aggression, but then when and where it happens, he is not adequately condemning it, and this paints him in shades of red. It is the same with the common Christian against their religious evangelism. As against such attitudes of indifference, the common Hindu does have an opinion and expresses it freely, if any Hindu tries to aggressively assert his religion.

Jainarayan
04 August 2011, 09:55 AM
IMHO, the common Muslim may not be a supporter of their religious aggression, but then when and where it happens, he is not adequately condemning it, and this paints him in shades of red. It is the same with the common Christian against their religious evangelism.

Three words: Silence gives consent.

'Tis true. Where were the condemnations from "moderate" Muslim clerics and governments after 9/11, the bombings in Spain, London, India, Bali?

Fortunately in the US we have the Constitution and federal courts which rein in the Christian right wing (most of the time, when possible). There was a case in Pennsylvania in which a school district fired some teachers for not teaching "intelligent design". It went to court, and the judge ruled against the school district and teaching intelligent design.

There were plenty of arguments pro and con in the trial, but in the end, the pro-intelligent design camp could not prove intelligent design is anything more than veiled Judeo-Christian creationism.

That's slapping down extremists.

Eastern Mind
04 August 2011, 02:33 PM
Subramanian Swamy's crusade against aggressive Islam

Some interesting developments:
Right to freedom of speech is sancrosant – Harvard University on complaint against Dr.Swamy
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/right-to-freedom-of-speech-is-sancrosant-harvard-university-on-complaint-against-dr-swamy/

Analysis: How to wipe out Islamic terror
Subramanian Swamy | Saturday, July 16, 2011
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/comment_analysis-how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror_1566203-all

Confront Religious Bigotry!
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~slam/petitions/swamy.php (http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/%7Eslam/petitions/swamy.php)

IMHO, the common Muslim may not be a supporter of their religious aggression, but then when and where it happens, he is not adequately condemning it, and this paints him in shades of red. It is the same with the common Christian against their religious evangelism. As against such attitudes of indifference, the common Hindu does have an opinion and expresses it freely, if any Hindu tries to aggressively assert his religion.

Vannakkam: Wow. And this when Harvard grants Wendy Doniger an honorary degree for her thinly veiled hate.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
04 August 2011, 03:16 PM
I'm glad I was talked out of her version of the Rig Veda. :Cool:

Believer
04 August 2011, 03:56 PM
That's what asking for correction and education means. And that education and correction can be done without a defensive and a snarky tone.If one were to go to a Jewish website and make a post, "Hitler was a good man. Correct me if I am wrong, I am looking to be educated." No one would look at such a person kindly.

Similarly, when Hindutava is compared to extremism, instead of what it is - an assertion of Hindu values and culture - does the poster expect to be coddled? If one wants to be educated, the poster would simply ask about the meaning/significance/essence of Hindutava, NOT make some unkind statements, and as an addendum ask to be corrected. What is the point of posting misinformed/unflattering/inflammatory definition of the term (which the poster may actually believe in) and then acting 'innocent' as if other people are at fault. Why not just keep your mouth shut about things you know nothing about and ask to be educated, rather than taking a dump and asking if that was bad? Respect is something that I have to earn from other people, it is not my entitlement. When I say stupid things, I open the door for others to ridicule me. It is I, who starts the process, not others.

Jainarayan
04 August 2011, 04:23 PM
A little late to the party, aren't you? I thought we got past this. You'd have seen that if you followed the thread instead of savaging me like a great white shark from a post at the beginning.


If one were to go to a Jewish website and make a post, "Hitler was a good man. Correct me if I am wrong, I am looking to be educated." No one would look at such a person kindly.

Bad analogy, logical fallacy. There's hardly a person in the civilized world who doesn't know who Hitler was. There's hardly a person in the western world, including me, who knows what Hindutva is about. I didn't ask to be coddled, I asked to be corrected after I admitted I was most likely uninformed.

And as I said to your friend, you saw disparagement and took offense where none was intended. The problem lies in your perception. I'm tired of defending myself for the same thing, for what I admit is ignorance.


When I say stupid things, I open the door for others to ridicule me.

Then let the games begin.