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Rudy
27 June 2011, 11:50 PM
Hello

I'm currently reading the book The Circle of Fire (website here http://www.thecircleoffire.com/, http://www.thecircleoffire.com/atman.html ) it says modern science has gotten rid of the need of the soul to animate the body and mind. Do Hindus have any counters to this? And if there is the soul where does it connect to the mind?
And we are made up of tiny little cells do these cells have souls what about single cell organizims? How do these tiny organisms work up to better births if they do have souls?

Mana
28 June 2011, 01:25 AM
Namasté Rudy

Soul is just a word, nothing has changed, a Jnana yogin has published a book which may help other Jnana see through his eyes.
You are focusing on the fruit rather than the tree, try to see the roots of the meaning long before the words. You will become aware that the soul and that of which this book speak are the same thing. Nothing has changed form, it is only the light with which it is seen that has changed colour.

Cells and tiny organisms are all a part of Prakriti as are rocks and stones and Mountains. We only have to look at the fossilised seashells at the top of mountains to know this.

The cycle of life which bubbles away through time like the froth on the very crest of a wave has at its pinnacle intellect and awareness. None of which could exist with out the movement of the sea which is all one, made from the same elements.

Think of the way some fungus or termites behave. They act in a group as one, their apparent intelligence is collective but no single mould or termite contains the soul which knowingly guides their constructions yet they all contain Jiva.



Om Shanti.

Mana
28 June 2011, 01:39 AM
The word soul has so many connotations within Western belief and thus Dharma that it is very hard to translate without preconceived ideas (Vritti) being stirred.

Kismet
29 June 2011, 11:16 AM
Hello

I'm currently reading the book The Circle of Fire (website here http://www.thecircleoffire.com/, http://www.thecircleoffire.com/atman.html ) it says modern science has gotten rid of the need of the soul to animate the body and mind. Do Hindus have any counters to this? And if there is the soul where does it connect to the mind?
And we are made up of tiny little cells do these cells have souls what about single cell organizims? How do these tiny organisms work up to better births if they do have souls?

I think a good and honest way of looking at the notion of the soul is this: can science, at all, really "prove" or demonstrate a principle that is distinct from the physical?

Mind-substance (chitta) is not the same thing as soul. The former is more like a computer which enables thought. The underlying Witness-Consciousness, on the ther hand, is the substratum that makes thought possible, not being thought itself. To use an example, mind is the like the ink that makes letters, but it is the paper which allows them exist.

So when scientists bring up examples of mind-body interaction (like the famous incident with Phineas Gage) and thus point out the correlation between mind states and physical states, a good rule of thumb is to point out that such is just that: mind-body interaction. Such explorations do not so much as touch consciousness proper, which is in an unprovable domain, as Sankara would no doubt point out. Nothing, even Descartes' "I think therefore I am" is adequate to proving the self logically, since this would end in an infinite regress, among other things.

Jainarayan
29 June 2011, 11:51 AM
This is the full episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQpOHBrZeU&feature=related

If you jump to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQpOHBrZeU&feature=related#t=10m11s this neuroscientist has a pretty interesting take on it, especially at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQpOHBrZeU&feature=related#t=14m15s to 15:05.

In short, it mentions Hindu and Buddhist belief in a universal soul.

Mana
29 June 2011, 12:22 PM
Namasté Minotaur

:)

Great link thanks!

Take a look at neuroepigenetics, this will blow your mind!

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v13/n11/abs/nn.2666.html?lang=en

The implications of this article are enormous!



Om Shanti.

Kismet
30 June 2011, 12:56 AM
This is the full episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQpOHBrZeU&feature=related

If you jump to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQpOHBrZeU&feature=related#t=10m11s this neuroscientist has a pretty interesting take on it, especially at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQpOHBrZeU&feature=related#t=14m15s to 15:05.

In short, it mentions Hindu and Buddhist belief in a universal soul.

This was certainly an interesting documentary that was actually pretty evenhanded. I'm glad Bruce Greyson is finally getting some mainstream attention, and not just being slammed as another crackpot parapsychologist.

Still, it would be a stretch to say that the show proves the soul. At most these findings, fascinating though they may be, can only show that the human possibility of experience is not local to the brain or limited to the domain of biology. It could be that there is no soul at all and that human personality is stored in the quantum information scattered across the universe.

The soul remains a thoroughly metaphysical posit, in my view.

Mana
30 June 2011, 02:17 AM
Namasté


The soul remains a thoroughly metaphysical posit, in my view.

As is Quantum Electro Dynamics.

Fascinating times these in which we live!

Om Shanti.

arjunah
02 July 2011, 01:27 PM
every "thing" is made up of the 3 gunas, or am i incorrect?

Onkara
03 July 2011, 04:39 AM
every "thing" is made up of the 3 gunas, or am i incorrect?

Namasté arjunah
My ipression is that everything is influenced by the 3 gunas, but does not necessarily consist of gunas i.e. "made up of the 3 gunas".

Sri Krishna said:

Above the body are senses;
Above the senses is the mind;
Above the mind is intellect;
Above the intellect: the Self.
Bhagavad Gita 3:42

So we have a break down of what we are. Bascially everything is made up of elements. For example the mind and body comes into form through taking in food from the earth. The gunas operate on the mind. The intellect can be used to "reign in" the mind and control it, otherwise the mind is pulled in the direction of the lower senses. Once the intellect gains hold, we can come to recognise that we are not limited to the intellect, but that we are that which knows the intellect too i.e. the Self, Consciousness, Atman or Brahman.

Once one recognises one's higher Self as Brahman and knows one's Self, then one is liberated whilst living. The gunas still act on the mind, but one is beyond the mind yet fully aware of the mind. (These words are a gross simplicity and we can elaborate if required).

The problem, regarding the OP, is that science stops at the intellect, in general it rarely recognises anything beyond the mind/intellect, as anything beyond the mind is not measurable. Science needs to be able to measure to confirm itself. So the Atman - Self - Brahman is beyond measure and hence beyond science. However Brahman can come to know itSelf through itSelf, so the scriptures and Guru continue to lead us to It.

kallol
04 July 2011, 10:12 AM
This a good topic to ponder on. The definition particularly of atman or soul has been quite varied across.

What is the right definition of atman ? How is it linked to mind ? How is it linked to paramatman ? Why is atman and paratman different or is it ?

How can death be defined in context of atman ?

Love and best wishes

Mana
05 July 2011, 01:18 AM
every "thing" is made up of the 3 gunas, or am i incorrect?

Every "thing" is interconnected by the Guna to make three things, from which they are made. Try maybe to perceive the guna as directions in another set of dimensions other than that of spacetime. The vibration of which make energy manifest as matter. E=mc².

The Gunas make Prakriti. Prakriti has grown to be everything we perceive externally. Our perception is of Purusha. Purusha is entwined with Prakriti in a cosmic dance. Together they make Brahman.

You are not incorrect you are Purusha. ;)

But I may well be incorrect. :)


Om Shanti.

Onkara
05 July 2011, 02:56 AM
Namasté Mana and friends
You might well be correct in your perspective, consider this verse and translation:

Bhagavad Gita - As it Is 7.14
daivi hy esa guna-mayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

This would indicate that nature is made of the three gunas.

Comparing my last post and your last post the question might arise: Which comes first; matter or gunas? Or which is first; elements or energy?

This can easily become a "which came first; chicken or egg?" debate and lead us in endless circles.

The answer in my opinion is once matter (elements) and gunas (energy) are seen in correct proportion to Lord Krishan (Brahman) then our mind may rest on accepting that there is, in reality, no separation between them. They consist as one yet are separated by our witnessing/observation alone. Sri Krishna states that one can know this only when one goes beyond both:

Bhagavad Gita 7.14
daivi hy esa guna-mayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

The aspirant then may ask, so who or what is witnessing/observing the play of gunas (energy) and elements (matter)?

The answer is that it is the Atman (soul) or divine Consciousness:

Bhagavad Gita 5.8-9
naiva kincit karomiti
yukto manyeta tattva-vit
pasyan shrinvan sprsan jighrann
asnan gacchan svapan svasan

pralapan visrjan grhnann
unmisan nimisann api
indriyanindriyarthesu
vartanta iti dharayan

"A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

I would be interested in your further thoughts. :)



PS: I am not promoting this translation over another, but found the search easy and quick. I am happy to consider other translations.


Every "thing" is interconnected by the Guna to make three things, from which they are made. Try maybe to perceive the guna as directions in another set of dimensions other than that of spacetime. The vibration of which make energy manifest as matter. E=mc².

The Gunas make Prakriti. Prakriti has grown to be everything we perceive externally. Our perception is of Purusha. Purusha is entwined with Prakriti in a cosmic dance. Together they make Brahman.

You are not incorrect you are Purusha. ;)

But I may well be incorrect. :)


Om Shanti.

Mana
05 July 2011, 09:50 AM
Namasté Onkara, thank you for your thought provoking post.




Bhagavad Gita - As it Is 7.14
daivi hy esa guna-mayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

This would indicate that nature is made of the three gunas..
I would say here that to my mind it is Maya which is being expounded and not nature. Nature herself (daiv) (Prakriti) is the root of the guNa as opposed to the oposite.

We have differences here in the translation of the word guna as well as gundmayair and gunamayi. The context giving the meaning.
To my eyes, guna meaning 3 but also meaning, sinew, atribute of the 5 eliments, string of a musical instrament, rope, attribute, secondary eliment, bow-string, single chord or thread of a twine.
When combined with maya, as in gunamaya or gunamayaih we have an imaginary construct which is extremely difficult to depict in English.


Referring to something both elusive and illusive.

The gunas being a kind of reoccurring theme within the variations of nature as they are the very force which make her grow. At the same time creating her on a microscopic level. Also guiding her future development.

Verse 13 through to 15 of chapter 7 of the Bhagavad Gita. The gunas are being used to explain Maya in relation to the human self but this does not explain the entirety of the gunas play in the world.



Comparing my last post and your last post the question might arise: Which comes first; matter or gunas? Or which is first; elements or energy?

This can easily become a "which came first; chicken or egg?" debate and lead us in endless circles.

I should say that in my minds eye, matter and guna are one and the same. The line separating them is a fractal boundary of infinite length by its very nature, one cannot exist without the other. Scale here is also a relative defining factor thus the reference to a fractal boundary.

In many ways this is the nature of the guna them selves.
light and dark separated by an infinite boundary the boundary its self being as much an object as both the light and dark.

Prakriti and Purusha separated by an infinite boundary which is Prana.

Regarding chickens and eggs, :) it could be hypothesised using the theory of evolution in conjunction with the fossil record, that the egg came first. Chickens have evolved from dinosaurs or reptiles both of which lay eggs. ;)


The answer in my opinion is once matter (elements) and gunas (energy) are seen in correct proportion to Lord Krishan (Brahman) then our mind may rest on accepting that there is, in reality, no separation between them. They consist as one yet are separated by our witnessing/observation alone. Sri Krishna states that one can know this only when one goes beyond both:
Although we are using different images and language I believe we are working from a very similar mental image or understanding.
The separation being infinite it is its self an entity which is only perceivable from a distance.



Bhagavad Gita 7.14
daivi hy esa guna-mayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."

The aspirant then may ask, so who or what is witnessing/observing the play of gunas (energy) and elements (matter)?

The answer is that it is the Atman (soul) or divine Consciousness:

Bhagavad Gita 5.8-9
naiva kincit karomiti
yukto manyeta tattva-vit
pasyan shrinvan sprsan jighrann
asnan gacchan svapan svasan

pralapan visrjan grhnann
unmisan nimisann api
indriyanindriyarthesu
vartanta iti dharayan

"A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them."

I would be interested in your further thoughts.


As we have brought up birds already, I shall allude to them again here as they are to my mind a very fitting demonstration of Maya and its role in nature and what it imply to rise or see above it.
Birds through there mastery of flight have been blessed with the luxury of time to evolve in many colourful ways for nature or gods selection and delight. freed just a little from the turmoil of competition to survive many species have evolved all kinds of fanciful new ways to compete with each other.

The Bowerbird of Papua New Guinea and Australia are a superb example of this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c&feature=related)

Here too! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPbWJPsBPdA&feature=related)

:) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBaPu-EeepQ&feature=related)

Another amazing bird. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSB71jNq-yQ)

In much the same way we have developed/evolved new ways to interact and very often compete. These themes them selves have evolved from the base instincts such as Fight, stand your ground or run using the same force or energy we used to to evolve, that of the guna. The strands of life.

Human beings are capable of the most beautiful creations just as we are capable of the direst atrocities. Once we become aware of the driving forces underlying our very own existence we become aware of a finer connection between our selves and Prakriti. We can observe our very own dance by detaching ourselves from Maya at which point we see and understand many things in our own way that were previously unexplainable. We are released from the desires which create pain we are left with contentment rather than need.

Om Shakti

Iain