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WTyler
28 June 2011, 08:13 PM
Greetings,

If everything is Brahman, than where does that leave the Gods?

Are they just Brahman too, just as we are? Or are they special, even above Brahman? Or are they just realized souls and at a level we can be?

Or are they just symbolic rather than actual people?

Thank you for your time.

Blessings.

Kismet
28 June 2011, 09:21 PM
Greetings,

If everything is Brahman, than where does that leave the Gods?

Are they just Brahman too, just as we are? Or are they special, even above Brahman? Or are they just realized souls and at a level we can be?

Or are they just symbolic rather than actual people?

Thank you for your time.

Blessings.

Good questions. These things have themselves been on my mind a lot.

In my own view I think there can be a distinction made between Brahman (which in other religious terminology would connote something like the Tao, absolute Godhead, etc) and from God in his capacity as Ishvara (a personal and attributive deity). There can be, depending what tradition you are in, multiple Ishtadevas which are each one with the supreme Brahman. But, here is where my own difficulty comes to light. Are they each discrete persons, perhaps with their own birth and death? Or are they merely apparent (symbolic) representations of the absolute, and are not themselves empirical in nature?

Ultimately, I think it depends what philosophy/sect you adhere to.

Kismet
28 June 2011, 09:33 PM
My own PERSONAL view... is that these Ishtas are as real as you or me. This is, believe it or not, the view of some extreme non-dualists like Ramana Maharshi. Indeed, from the highest absolute peak of Brahman, each of us is little more than a plaster-image.

The Devas are simply the highest personal permutations or reflections of the ultimate Reality of Self - culminating in Lord Krishna. It is through time that all these personalities have a relative ("illusory") reality.

Still, it comes ultimately down to what you mean with such terms as "maya" "illusion" and "reality." A twirling fire-wheel is certainly real while you are perceiving it. Little do you know then it is only a fire-stick.

I think it's real, for all intents and purposes. And so is God and the "gods" in the personal sense.

Ananda
29 June 2011, 08:21 AM
Hello WTyler,


If everything is Brahman, than where does that leave the Gods?

Are they just Brahman too, just as we are? Or are they special, even above Brahman? Or are they just realized souls and at a level we can be?

Or are they just symbolic rather than actual people?


In the Advaita philosophy, the highest truth (paramarthika) is that Brahman alone exists. Everything else that appears to exist, including the Gods, have no independent existence from Brahman, as Brahman is the underlying substrate or reality from which all these originate. The Gods (devas) are seen, in the philosophy, to be the forces that control nature and are sometimes equated to the powers of the senses and the mind in each individual.

The devas aren't necessarily realized souls, but they can become realized souls (as in the case of Indra approaching Prajapati to learn about the Self).

God exists in relation to the empirical world as Ishvara, the controller and ruler of all the forces in nature and their creator. God also exists in relation to each empirical individual as the Lord in the theistic sense. When the empirical world is sublated through Self-knowledge then God no longer exists to the jnani as Ishvara, and neither does the jnani exist as a Jiva- the distinctions have ceased and only Brahman remains (paramarthika).


:)

kallol
29 June 2011, 08:25 AM
Good questions. These things have themselves been on my mind a lot.

In my own view I think there can be a distinction made between Brahman (which in other religious terminology would connote something like the Tao, absolute Godhead, etc) and from God in his capacity as Ishvara (a personal and attributive deity). There can be, depending what tradition you are in, multiple Ishtadevas which are each one with the supreme Brahman. But, here is where my own difficulty comes to light. Are they each discrete persons, perhaps with their own birth and death? Or are they merely apparent (symbolic) representations of the absolute, and are not themselves empirical in nature?

Ultimately, I think it depends what philosophy/sect you adhere to.

My understanding :

As you may know there are 14 lokas - 7 upper, 6 lower and 1 middle (human level).
As one moves through the upper layer, the condition of the karmaphalas get better and better. At the highest lokas they have the qualities to take up the positions of Gods. However these all are the lower state of Brahman.

Just like we have President, Prime Minister, Ministers, etc similarly there are positions in the higher lokas for various aspects of creations. There is rotation in the holding these posts as all are bound to have birth and rebirth.

Even Brahma, Visnu, Shiva, etc (any God with form) is only depicting the lower state of Brahman.

The Brahman by itself is formless. The higher state is the consciousness and the lower state is the shakti. The lower state changes from manifestations to unmanifestation, from form to formless.

Two together is any entity - right from the lowest to the highest.

Love and best wishes

Kismet
29 June 2011, 09:08 AM
My understanding :

As you may know there are 14 lokas - 7 upper, 6 lower and 1 middle (human level).
As one moves through the upper layer, the condition of the karmaphalas get better and better. At the highest lokas they have the qualities to take up the positions of Gods. However these all are the lower state of Brahman.

Just like we have President, Prime Minister, Ministers, etc similarly there are positions in the higher lokas for various aspects of creations. There is rotation in the holding these posts as all are bound to have birth and rebirth.

Even Brahma, Visnu, Shiva, etc (any God with form) is only depicting the lower state of Brahman.

The Brahman by itself is formless. The higher state is the consciousness and the lower state is the shakti. The lower state changes from manifestations to unmanifestation, from form to formless.

Two together is any entity - right from the lowest to the highest.

Love and best wishes

I think it depends who you regard as "just Gods."

The position of Brahma, for example, is merely a post. Any jiva at all can, possibly, attain to the level of Brahma. But is this the same for, say, Shiva or Vishnu, or any other God who is supposed to represent the highest Absolute?

I don't think so. While I think one may be born in a higher loka according to one's merit, there may be positions no mere bound jiva can ever attain to.

Can you imagine you or I becoming Lord Krishna in another lifetime? This would be considered both impossible and the height of blasphemy to any mainline Vaishnava. Likewise we could never "officially" be Shiva in his personal aspect because, we just aren't Shiva.

So I agree we can attain to a higher deva-like status but this is only true to an extent.

Jainarayan
29 June 2011, 09:43 AM
Greetings,

If everything is Brahman, than where does that leave the Gods?

Are they just Brahman too, just as we are? Or are they special, even above Brahman? Or are they just realized souls and at a level we can be?

Or are they just symbolic rather than actual people?

Thank you for your time.

Blessings.

My understanding, which is probably highly flawed and simplistic...

1. Brahman is OM Tat Sat: All that is the Truth, the Supreme and Absolute Being and Truth. Brahman is impersonal and is existence itself. Brahman pervades and transcends all. Brahman is the Universal Soul, of which we are all a part. This is radically different than western concepts, and in reality, makes more sense that we (our atman, soul/spirit) are all part of the Whole (the Atman).

2. Brahman manifests as devas and devis (gods and goddesses) in various personal forms, i.e. Vishnu and His avatars (e.g. Krishna, Rama); Shiva; Ganesha; Durga and Her forms and daughters (Lakshmi, Saraswati, Parvati, Kali). We choose one or more of these manifestations as our Ishtadeva, personal god(dess) through whom we worship and connect with Brahman.

3. We strive to achieve moksha, liberation from the cycle of rebirth, and join with the Universal Soul, Brahman. We are, after all, all part of the Universal Soul.

I await seeing how badly I mucked that up. :o

WTyler
29 June 2011, 12:20 PM
Everyones answers have been tremendously helpful! And each has given me a better grasp! So many thanks.

However, what I seem to have difficulty with is if they are all aspects of Brahman, than are they no different from us? Are their personalities just as illusory as ours?

NayaSurya
29 June 2011, 01:12 PM
Some would say our personalities are illusionary. But, from my experience they are not....why then, when so many nearly die, do they still identify and know who they are?

I believe each of us is Source, from the lowest to the highest...and the only thing which seperate us from being upon a higher vibrational level is our actions, thoughts, and ability to accept.

But, just as when a child is pulled from my own body...Beloved pulled us from that cosmic wellspring...and each of us has a special place...and a name.

It's like a vast hall of books...each one upon a shelf until Beloved come along to pull us out and allow our drama to unfold.

Each of us, is a Portion of the Divine Mosaic which Beloved Is.

But, here...in this state...we are shrouded by this decaying hull...it clouds and confuses...of course we can not play out this drama if we know the outcome?

With all my heart lastnight I was praying and I say to Beloved..."

I say.."Beloved... Beautiful, Beloved Everything...You pull me from your Perfect Wondrous Form and created me just as I created my very own child...and I love you...with my heart overflowing so much it burst. Thank you for giving me this chance to be here now, but always know that I never wish to be melted back into your Beautiful Form...that it is my wish to sing at Your Beloved Feet for eternity. You gave me this seperated identity to Love You and these Beloved Portions around me...Please always allow me to give this Love to you Beloved."

My ears began to ring as I end this prayer...so loudly in the sound of Aum that I just simply gave away to it and sang along...and you know I do feel...as a parent I have this angle of Beloved that I am so grateful to have...

As a parent, the creator of these Precious Beings around me...I do want them to have their own leela...I want them to Love too!

Beloved, Beloved Everything...God is Everything, inside of every Portion. Each made individually special, all to have a closer understanding, a different angle...a different story.

I do not think One of us could be Krishna, as Beloved already come to us in this Wondrous Form of Pure Love. But could one of us transcend this gross physical reality to become Pure Love?

I do! Each of us has this wonderful potential.

Beloved forgive me for not living up to this potential.

kallol
29 June 2011, 10:40 PM
I think it depends who you regard as "just Gods."

The position of Brahma, for example, is merely a post. Any jiva at all can, possibly, attain to the level of Brahma. But is this the same for, say, Shiva or Vishnu, or any other God who is supposed to represent the highest Absolute?

I don't think so. While I think one may be born in a higher loka according to one's merit, there may be positions no mere bound jiva can ever attain to.

Can you imagine you or I becoming Lord Krishna in another lifetime? This would be considered both impossible and the height of blasphemy to any mainline Vaishnava. Likewise we could never "officially" be Shiva in his personal aspect because, we just aren't Shiva.

So I agree we can attain to a higher deva-like status but this is only true to an extent.

Possibly you might not have read the text carefully "Even Brahma, Visnu, Shiva, etc (any God with form) is only depicting the lower state of Brahman"

Krishna as a human form is nothing special and is mortal like anyone else. The knowledge he brings is special.

Lest people get stuck into the concept of God in forms, it is better that a clear idea is developed about what these forms mean in Advaita term. Otherwise there will be lots of confusion.

Love and best wishes

Kismet
30 June 2011, 12:35 AM
Possibly you might not have read the text carefully "Even Brahma, Visnu, Shiva, etc (any God with form) is only depicting the lower state of Brahman"

Krishna as a human form is nothing special and is mortal like anyone else. The knowledge he brings is special.

Lest people get stuck into the concept of God in forms, it is better that a clear idea is developed about what these forms mean in Advaita term. Otherwise there will be lots of confusion.

Love and best wishes

Not sure if I agree completely with the Advaitic conception... Brahman is both Nirguna and Saguna, so from the Saguna aspect He is likewise supreme...

If I were a strict Advaitin I would not wish to sow confusion. As it stands I do not consider myself such if all is meant by Brahman is the Nirguna side of things.

Kismet
30 June 2011, 03:18 PM
Possibly you might not have read the text carefully "Even Brahma, Visnu, Shiva, etc (any God with form) is only depicting the lower state of Brahman"

Krishna as a human form is nothing special and is mortal like anyone else. The knowledge he brings is special.

Lest people get stuck into the concept of God in forms, it is better that a clear idea is developed about what these forms mean in Advaita term. Otherwise there will be lots of confusion.

Love and best wishes

Well, if we stick to the Advaita conception of God then all depictions of God are inadequate. But that's why I still said that they try to represent the Absolute, even if they do not outright mean to be the Absolute.

So, Shiva let's say represents the infinite sat-cit-ananda nature of Brahman. It's a representation that tries to be as accurate as it can, but yes it is still inadequate to the Being of God in his own essence...

Onkara
01 July 2011, 02:19 AM
From the Adviata perspective as I understand it all division is a product of avidyā (ignorance). Avidyā can be removed and in doing so one arrives at knowing that all is One with Brahman, the Lord.

So deities can be taken as representations of powers, such as the deity of the sun, senses, moon etc. Or they can be considered as deities in their own right, with bodies, minds. For the Advaitin this can be left to the devotee's nature (svabhāva) and need not be a concern as long as the devotee has the correct zeal to arrive at the highest truth, exposed in the scriptures.

All duality belongs to the realm of mind and matter. Once the devotee recognise their true Self, the Atman as Brahman, then it dawns that all sense of division must arise IN Brahman and not apart from Brahman - the One True Lord.

kallol
01 July 2011, 04:50 AM
For the knowledgeable it does not matter. They can see the brahman through any form or within any form.

Problem lies with us, the less knowledeable ones. The lack of assimilation and complete knowledge, lead to varying degree of confusion.

People look towards sky when seeking God, as though He is sitting somewhere in the sky. Even we do.

Some of us take the sayings in literal terms and are unable to read between the lines. So there are various interpretations of the same depending on the varying degree of the ability to read between the lines. That also depends on the total scriptural knowledge, the guidance of Guru (s) and the blessing of Lord.

That way Dvaita is easiest to start with. See the Vaishnavas, Iskcon, (Christians, Islam), etc. - so content and full. Biggest mass is there.

Abstract advaita is a fashion - good to be linked with. But only a few can live it. Knowledge (right) and living that right knowledge are two different aspects.

All of us are at different mix of dvaita, advaita, etc.

Love and best wishes

Onkara
01 July 2011, 05:43 AM
Namaste
You are right, dear kallol, with the apparent challenges we all face. The attractive aspect of God in Advaita is that it is accessible to all, regardless, because by Its very nature it permeates everything always i.e. omnipresent. Likewise the challenges are equal because not one being is separate from the Lord's prakriti.

So the question of removing the avidyā, is a question of satisfying our questions with answers through knowledge (scripture and Guru), this is ultimately just God's grace as you say.

What I would encourage is that we all take the attitude that we are ready for that and that this birth is an auspicious one, despite any pestering doubt. As I say, Adviatin logic confirms that to be the case that Brahman is knowable now, if only our mind would be silent enough to realise that for a moment :)




For the knowledgeable it does not matter. They can see the brahman through any form or within any form.

Problem lies with us, the less knowledeable ones. The lack of assimilation and complete knowledge, lead to varying degree of confusion.
(cut)

All of us are at different mix of dvaita, advaita, etc.

Love and best wishes

SOV
01 July 2011, 09:34 AM
For the knowledgeable it does not matter. They can see the brahman through any form or within any form.

Problem lies with us, the less knowledeable ones. The lack of assimilation and complete knowledge, lead to varying degree of confusion.

People look towards sky when seeking God, as though He is sitting somewhere in the sky. Even we do.

Some of us take the sayings in literal terms and are unable to read between the lines. So there are various interpretations of the same depending on the varying degree of the ability to read between the lines. That also depends on the total scriptural knowledge, the guidance of Guru (s) and the blessing of Lord.

That way Dvaita is easiest to start with. See the Vaishnavas, Iskcon, (Christians, Islam), etc. - so content and full. Biggest mass is there.

Abstract advaita is a fashion - good to be linked with. But only a few can live it. Knowledge (right) and living that right knowledge are two different aspects.

All of us are at different mix of dvaita, advaita, etc.

Love and best wishes

Kallol,

:iagree:

kallol
01 July 2011, 12:31 PM
Namaste
You are right, dear kallol, with the apparent challenges we all face. The attractive aspect of God in Advaita is that it is accessible to all, regardless, because by Its very nature it permeates everything always i.e. omnipresent. Likewise the challenges are equal because not one being is separate from the Lord's prakriti.

So the question of removing the avidyā, is a question of satisfying our questions with answers through knowledge (scripture and Guru), this is ultimately just God's grace as you say.

What I would encourage is that we all take the attitude that we are ready for that and that this birth is an auspicious one, despite any pestering doubt. As I say, Adviatin logic confirms that to be the case that Brahman is knowable now, if only our mind would be silent enough to realise that for a moment :)

Dear Onkara :hug: ,

I can only give an honest, sincere, devoted, dedicated try in the midst of the ever maya sansar.

That is the only part which is partially in my control. God has been enough kind to bring me this far. Hope to cover the rest with His grace.

Love and best wishes