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atanu
23 December 2006, 12:37 PM
From Rig Veda

8.096.13 The swift-moving Kr.s.n.a with ten thousand (demons) stood on the Am.s'umati_; by his might Indra caught him snorting (in the water); he, benevolent to man, smote his malicious (bands).
8.096.14 "I have seen the swift-moving (demon) lurking in an inaccessible place, in the depths of the river Am.s'umati_, (I have seen) Kr.s.n.a standing there as (the sun) in a cloud; I appeal to you, showerers; conquer him in battle". Though the demon thinks he is concealing himself, he is seen as clearly by Indra as the sun is behind a cloud.
8.096.15 Then the swift-moving one, shining forth assumed his own body by the Am.s'umati_, and Indra with Br.haspati as his ally smote the godless hosts as they drew near. [Godless hosts: adevi_h = not shining, dark; not to be praised].

8.096.16 As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an enemy to those seven who had no enemy; you recovered the heavens and earth when concealed (in darkness); you cause joy to the mighty worlds.

------


Does it refer to Kama?

atanu
25 December 2006, 04:42 AM
From Rig Veda

8.096.13 The swift-moving Kr.s.n.a with ten thousand (demons) stood on the Am.s'umati_; by his might Indra caught him snorting (in the water); he, benevolent to man, smote his malicious (bands).
8.096.14 "I have seen the swift-moving (demon) lurking in an inaccessible place, in the depths of the river Am.s'umati_, (I have seen) Kr.s.n.a standing there as (the sun) in a cloud; I appeal to you, showerers; conquer him in battle". Though the demon thinks he is concealing himself, he is seen as clearly by Indra as the sun is behind a cloud.
8.096.15 Then the swift-moving one, shining forth assumed his own body by the Am.s'umati_, and Indra with Br.haspati as his ally smote the godless hosts as they drew near. [Godless hosts: adevi_h = not shining, dark; not to be praised].

8.096.16 As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an enemy to those seven who had no enemy; you recovered the heavens and earth when concealed (in darkness); you cause joy to the mighty worlds.

------


Does it refer to Kama?



I guffawoed and guffawoed. God is ingenious! I think 'the seven who had no enemy' refer to the seven deadly sins.


May I request Satay Ji to move this to the Veda section?

Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevayya Namah

atanu
03 August 2007, 10:05 AM
From Rig Veda

8.096.13 The swift-moving Kr.s.n.a with ten thousand (demons) stood on the Am.s'umati_; by his might Indra caught him snorting (in the water); he, benevolent to man, smote his malicious (bands).

8.096.14 "I have seen the swift-moving (demon) lurking in an inaccessible place, in the depths of the river Am.s'umati_, (I have seen) Kr.s.n.a standing there as (the sun) in a cloud; I appeal to you, showerers; conquer him in battle". Though the demon thinks he is concealing himself, he is seen as clearly by Indra as the sun is behind a cloud.

8.096.15 Then the swift-moving one, shining forth assumed his own body by the Am.s'umati_, and Indra with Br.haspati as his ally smote the godless hosts as they drew near. [Godless hosts: adevi_h = not shining, dark; not to be praised].

8.096.16 As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an enemy to those seven who had no enemy; you recovered the heavens and earth when concealed (in darkness); you cause joy to the mighty worlds.

------


Does it refer to Kama?


Namaste Sarabhanga Ji,

This has waited long for your elucidation.

Om Namah

sarabhanga
05 August 2007, 09:18 PM
Namaste Atanu,

Firstly, we should look at the verses in context [RV 8. 96. 1-21]:


For him the Mornings made their courses longer, the Nights with auspicious voices spoke to Indra.
For him the Floods stood still, the Seven Mothers, Streams easy for the heroes to pass over. |1|

By the Thrower, unaided, were pierced asunder the thrice seven close-pressed ridges of mountains.
Neither God nor mortal man could accomplish what the Showerer in full-grown vigor has done. |2|

The mightiest force is Indra’s bolt of iron when firmly grasped in both the arms of Indra.
His head and mouth have powers that pass all others, and all his people hasten near to listen. |3|

I count you as the Holiest of the Holy, the overthrower of what has never been shaken.
I count you as the Banner of the heroes; I count you as the Chief of all living men. |4|

When, O Indra, in your arms you took your pride-humbling bolt to smite Ahi,
Then the mountains roared, the cattle loudly bellowed, the Brahmans offered their hymns to Indra. |5|

Let us praise him who made these worlds and creatures, all things that after him sprang into being.
May we maintain friendship with Indra by our hymns, and bring the Showerer (of blessings) near us by our praises. |6|

Flying in terror from the snort of Vritra, all Deities who were your friends forsook you.
So, Indra, let there be friendship to you with the Maruts; then do you conquer these hostile armies. |7|

These sixty three Maruts, nourishing your strength, were with you, like piles of beaming light, worthy of worship.
We come to you: grant us a happy portion. Let us adore your might with this oblation. |8|

The host of Maruts is a sharpened weapon; and who, Indra, can withstand your bolt of thunder?
Weaponless are the Asuras, the godless: scatter them with your discus, O Expeller (of enemies). |9|

Send up an excellent hymn to the Strong and Mighty, most auspicious, for sake of the cattle.
Utter many praises for Indra who is invoked with praise, for will not he regard them? |10|

To him, the Mighty, who is borne by praise, send forth your thought as by a boat over rivers,
Stir with your hymn the body of the Famous and Dearest One, for will not he regard it? |11|

Perform those rites of yours that Indra may accept them; praise with fair praise, invite him with your homage.
Draw near, O singer, and grieve not. Make your voice heard, for will not he regard it? |12|

The Black Drop sank in the bosom of Amsumati (“sunlight”), advancing with ten thousand round about it.
Indra with might sought after it as it exhaled (in the waters); and benevolent, he laid aside his weapons. |13|

“I saw the Drop lurking in an inaccessible place, in the depths of Amsumati’s stream,
Like a black cloud that sank into the water. Heroes, I send you forth. Go, fight in battle.” |14|

And then the Drop in Amsumati’s bosom, splendid with light, assumed its proper body;
And Indra, with Brihaspati to aid him, conquered the godless tribes that came against him. |15|

As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an adversary for those seven who had never met a rival.
You recovered the Heaven and Earth when concealed (in darkness); you gave joy to the mighty worlds. |16|

So, Thunderer, did you boldly smite that unrivalled power with your bolt;
You subdued Sushna with your weapons, and you recovered the cows by your wisdom. |17|

Then, Showerer, you were the Lord of all living mortals, the very mighty slayer of the Vritras.
Then did you set free the obstructed rivers, and win the floods that were enthralled by Dasas. |18|

Most wise is he, rejoicing in the libations, splendid as day, resistless in his anger.
He alone does great deeds, the sole slayer of Vritra, unmatched by any other. |19|

Indra is Vrtra’s slayer, man’s sustainer: he must be called; with fair praise let us call him.
He is Maghavan, our Helper, our Protector, the giver of wealth that brings fame. |20|

This Indra, Vritra-slayer, this chief of the Ribhus, even at his birth, was worthy for invocation.
Doer of many deeds for man's advantage, like Soma quaffed, for friends we must invoke him. |21|

The hymn praises Indra as “the slayer of Vritra”.

Vritra means “coverer or restrainer”, indicating “an enemy, or a hostile host”. And Vritra is the Vedic personification of a malignant influence or demon of darkness and drought, supposed to take possession of the clouds, causing them to obstruct the clearness of the sky and keep back the waters.

Indra is represented as battling with this evil influence in the pent up clouds, poetically described as mountains which are shattered by his thunderbolt and made to open their receptacles.

Vritra is often identified with Ahi, the serpent of the sky, and associated with other evil spirits, such as Sushna (“the hisser”), Namuci (“preventing rain”), Pipru (?), Sambara (“illusion”), Urana (“the ram”), Arbuda (“tumour”), Krishna (“darkness”), etc., whose malignant influences are generally exercised in producing darkness or drought.

And Vritra indicates “a thunder-cloud” or “darkness”.


Now, the lines in question:


The Black Drop (or “swift-moving Krishna”) sank in the bosom of Amsumati (“sunlight”, or the river Yamuna), advancing with ten thousand (either Kurus or demons) round about it.
Indra with might sought after it as it exhaled (or kindled, in the waters); and benevolent, he laid aside his weapons. |13|

(And Indra spoke to the Maruts) “I saw the Drop lurking in an inaccessible place, in the depths of Amsumati’s stream,
Like a black cloud that sank into the water. Heroes, I send you forth. Go, fight in battle.” |14|

And then the Drop in Amsumati’s bosom, splendid with light, assumed its proper body;
And Indra, with Brihaspati to aid him, conquered the godless tribes that came against him. |15|

As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an adversary for those seven who had never met a rival.
You recovered the Heaven and Earth when concealed (in darkness); you gave joy to the mighty worlds. |16|

The “Drop” (drapsa ~ “dropping or swift-moving”) refers to a drop (of rain, soma, or semen) or a spark (of fire or light), and it is described here as “dark” (krishna).

And these lines recall the story of Soma, which was fearful of Vritra and took refuge (with the Kurus) in the Amsumati. Indra, along with Brihaspati and the Maruts, found the Soma and begged it to return. Soma refused and attempted to resist; but it was ultimately conquered and carried back to the gods, who drank it and thus vanquished the demons.


Now, who or what are “those seven who had never met a rival”?

The Maruts are saptagana (“in seven troops”) and their forces are arranged in nine ranks of seven (total 63).

Krishna is one of the seven tongues of Agni.

Indra slew Ahi and the Vritra, and Vritra was one of the Danavas (which are variously numbered, but often counted as seven).

And the hymn begins with direct refererence to Indra taming the seven Mothers, the seven streams of Saptasarasvati or Saptasindhu, and penetrating the thrice seven ranges or tablelands ~ performing tasks which “neither God nor mortal man could accomplish”.


For him the Floods stood still, the Seven Mothers, Streams easy for the heroes to pass over. |1|

By the Thrower, unaided, were pierced asunder the thrice seven close-pressed ridges of mountains.

Neither God nor mortal man could accomplish what the Showerer in full-grown vigor has done. |2|

“The Seven” is a common expression for “the sacred” or “an indefinite plurality” (e.g. seven Mothers, seven streams, seven oceans, seven cities, seven heavens, seven mountain ranges, seven Rishis, seven Adityas, seven Danavas, seven horses of the Sun, seven tongues of Agni)


Indra was an adversary or enemy for “those seven who had never met a rival (or had no enemy)”. But this could be read as Indra being an enemy or a rival to the Seven, or as Indra being an adversary on behalf of the Seven.


As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an adversary for those seven who had never met a rival.

As soon as you were born, Indra, you were a match for those seven (mothers or rivers) who had never met a rival.

As soon as you were born, Indra, you were a rival to those seven (tongues of flame, i.e. Agni) who had never been equalled (in brilliance).

As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an enemy to those seven (Danavas or demons, i.e. the Vritras) who were feared even by the Gods.

As soon as you were born, Indra, you were an aid or a match for those seven (Adityas, i.e. all the Gods) who had never met such a rival.


This is not particularly about Kama, nor “the seven deadly sins” ~ but any of the above interpretations might equally apply.

yajvan
06 August 2007, 08:33 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste,

A Beautiful Passage.... I do not know if this will add much value but offer for your consideration.

" causing them to obstruct the clearness of the sky and keep back the waters."

Clearness of the sky ~ = to mind, and clarity thereof, and waters has always been the reference to consiousness. ( oceans, flowing, Saraswati, etc)

How does Indra fit in? He has been Divine Mind. So for Indra-ji to concur
Vritra, is to overcome those inhibitors to the expansion of consciousness that brings one to Indra.



just a thought - stimulated by RL Kasyap's work with the Rig Ved.

pranams,

atanu
06 August 2007, 08:54 AM
Yes. Lord who removes darkness, removes obstacles.

RV 7.018.18 Your numerous enemies, Indra, have been reduced to subjection, effect at some time or other the subjugation of the turbulent Bheda, who holds men praising you as guilty of wickedness; hurl, Indra, your sharp thuderbolt against him. [Bheda: one who breaks or separates; may mean an unbeliever, a na_stika; or, the name of the enemy of Suda_sa].

Om Namah Shivaya