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Kismet
10 July 2011, 06:52 PM
Here again, my perennially inquisitive self. :p

So, I keep reading in the Bhagavad Gita that I am not the doer of actions. If not, then who is the doer of actions in my place? Is it simply prakriti - the movement of the elements in the form of gunas -, is it Ishvara?

If it is God who is doing everything, would this convict God of sin, or is He exempt from the laws of good and evil altogether, being as it were above them?

Namaste, and happy to learn submissively! :)

devotee
10 July 2011, 11:50 PM
So, I keep reading in the Bhagavad Gita that I am not the doer of actions. If not, then who is the doer of actions in my place? Is it simply prakriti - the movement of the elements in the form of gunas -, is it Ishvara?

Prakriti is not Ishvara. It comes into being from Ishvara yet Ishvara is not part of Prakriti.


If it is God who is doing everything, would this convict God of sin, or is He exempt from the laws of good and evil altogether, being as it were above them?

God doesn't do anything that binds Him. He is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of this world but as he is un-attached .... He is not affected by this Karma. Everything in this phenomenal world is being done by Prakriti and the three gunas together. So, the doer is actually the Prakriti and the gunas but we accrue sins/merits due to our involvement/attachment :

"Ahamkaar vimdoodhatmaa kartaaham iti manyate."

Due to our attachment to ego, ignorantly, we take upon ourselves that "we" are the doer and therefore get entangled into the wiremesh of Karmas.

This part of the Gita is not-Advaita and therefore, I think other Sr Members like GaneshPrasad ji will be able to explain this better.

OM

kallol
11 July 2011, 01:45 AM
This confusion will remain till we have a clear understanding of the Brahman-Maya, Paraprakriti-aparaprakriti, purusha-prakriti, etc.

If maya is there then brahman is there but the vice versa is not true.

Part 1. : Brahman / Praprakriti / Purusha / consciousness (however we call) is the independent state which is permanent, attributeless, changeless, timeless.

Part 2 : Whereas the other state maya / aparaprakriti / prakriti / matter (however we call) is the dependent state. It is not there without the other one. This is the state which is with attributes, changing form / state, etc. This form is attached with time, senses, action, thoughts, gunas, etc.

All percieved state belongs to part 2. However this state cannot function without the higher state.

Doing is a phenomenon by which one changes state. So it belongs to the part 2. However to carry out the actions it needs part 1 i.e. consciousness.

Part 1 is the field, part 2 is the players. Part 1 is the light, part 2 is the object in the light. There are so many other examples.

In both the above examples the field and the light do not play any role in the actions or results that happen. They only provide the enablement.

This human body (body mind complex which also has the intellect) does karma and has karamaphal. But these would not be possible if the consciousness was not there. The consciousness or brahman or paraprakriti or purusha is only the enabler but the doer is the other part.

The "I" belongs to the Part 1. However we mostly relate "I" to the body-mind complex and that is the Maya.

Love and best wishes

Kismet
11 July 2011, 02:42 AM
Namaste, and thanks all (thus far)!

Oh, and by the way, I hope my :p wasn't received in bad taste. I just thought it an adorable icon. I hadn't any clue I was really sticking my tongue out at anybody. ;)

Mana
11 July 2011, 02:57 AM
Namasté Kismet

Think of a Boat at sea, just because you have one hand on the tiller, this does not mean that you are moving the boat.
A good helmsman will anticipate the elements and navigate the boat accordingly.

Om Shanti

rkpande
11 July 2011, 05:21 AM
dear kismet,

My 2p.

Who feels the feelings?

Or let’s put it this way, who faces the consequences of Karma? If You reap what you sow, then you are the doer.

That’s why Purusha must learn to do away the feeling of doer ship.

He does what he does under the delusion of identifying Himself with Pradhana, and faces up to His doings by reincarnations and reincarnations, till He learns himself to be different than Pradhana.

That done, then He is not the doer any more.

NayaSurya
11 July 2011, 07:48 AM
The children play a game...it's pretend dress up. We have huge tubs of fantasy clothing and they dress up as a prince or a frog...or a dog...and then for hours this plays out a drama...a story about the frog and dog firefighter...or frog princess...depending on the day.:p

But the hours grows long...and the clothes loose their lustre...and the players, long tired of the drama begin to admit they are not the dog, or the prince. They slowly begin to disrobe...

Unfolding layer after layer of identity...removing these lables they took up to play...until nothing remain but them...the true one below.

No longer wanting to participate they stop...they transform from doer to knower.

Who is this Doer? Who is this knower?

One in the same.

Ganeshprasad
11 July 2011, 11:40 AM
Pranam

Lord Krishna informs us that there are 5 factors that impels us to action either good or bad, this all depends on our desires, our body is fashioned according to our desires and past karma, the body is made up of different elements as described;

The five great elements, ego, intelligence, the unmanifested, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hatred, happiness, distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms, and convictions--all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and its interactions.Bg13.5/6

in other words this vehicle is pre programed to function in certain way.

therefore he further says in chapter 18 verse 13-15

O mighty-armed Arjuna, learn from Me of the five factors which bring about the accomplishment of all action. These are declared in sankhya philosophy to be the place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately the Supersoul.

why supersoul? because he knows our desires and what we deserve

Whatever right or wrong action a man performs by body, mind or speech is caused by these five factors.

Isvara do not partake in our actions he remains a witness

Jai Shree Krishna

kallol
11 July 2011, 12:04 PM
in other words this vehicle is pre programed to function in certain way.




Dear GP,

Are we sure about the highlighted part. If it is true then the question of Free will does not come or the birth as human to be able to alter the state of mind (karmaphal) will not arise.

Can you please explain ?

Love and best wishes

Ganeshprasad
11 July 2011, 01:26 PM
Pranam Kallol


Dear GP,

Are we sure about the highlighted part. If it is true then the question of Free will does not come or the birth as human to be able to alter the state of mind (karmaphal) will not arise.

Can you please explain ?

Love and best wishes


there is no conflict of free will here although on the surface it sounds like it.
let me try an example although no example would fully justify what one says.

say you purchase a car, it comes with certain specification, so it would be reasonable for me to say that the car will function within it's limitation of spec, with us it is different, generally it functions within it's limitation but there is possibility to change the course, this would be done through extreme desire and hard work.

see our present body is result of our past Karma and desires, so the limitation or pre program is not against free will, but it was our free will that shaped the present body.


Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced.



within the constraint of the body we in turn create new karma through new desires.this is Kriyamana karma, we are creating in the present, the fruits of which will be experienced in the future. In this way a suitable vehicle is provided it was our desires and karma that pre programs it.


Jai Shree Krishna

Onkara
11 July 2011, 01:59 PM
Namasté Ganeshprasad
I enjoyed your answer to Kallol's question. If I may add my own perspective, please, for feedback or criticism. :o

Would you agree then that will or choice, can only operate now, right now in the present moment. It would only be free will, when the will is free from desire (or any of the Gunas). If the will is in any way influenced by existing karma or gunas it would risk adding more karma to our actions?

The difficulty then is that we all have predispositions, similar to a new car, so our decisions and will is always determined by them up until the point that we are no longer bound by the gunas. We go beyond the gunas, as Sri Krishna describes to Arjuna e.g. Bhagavad Gita 14.20.

So even now free will does not exist, as it is predispostioned, all action is due to the gunas.

Ganeshprasad
11 July 2011, 04:52 PM
Pranam Onkara
thank you


Namasté Ganeshprasad


Would you agree then that will or choice, can only operate now, right now in the present moment. It would only be free will, when the will is free from desire (or any of the Gunas). If the will is in any way influenced by existing karma or gunas it would risk adding more karma to our actions?

The difficulty then is that we all have predispositions, similar to a new car, so our decisions and will is always determined by them up until the point that we are no longer bound by the gunas. We go beyond the gunas, as Sri Krishna describes to Arjuna e.g. Bhagavad Gita 14.20.

So even now free will does not exist, as it is predispostioned, all action is due to the gunas.

I do not know if i fully understand your question but i will try to answer with what Krisna says,
Ghana Karmana Gati, he also says, we should do our duty and not worry about the result.

As to when the parabadh ful ripens and exhausted and new one begins one just can not tell. In all this i do not see the loss of free will, simply because prarabdh was a free will, being played out now and through desires out of free will, new fruits are created.

only when we choose to remain witness to our previous choices, the drama that is enacted in front of us, in both pleasure and pain to remain unaffected we can slowly, by extinguishing our desire and hate, we transcend the three gunas.

Jai Shree Krishna

devotee
11 July 2011, 11:31 PM
Good explanation, Ganesh Prasad ji ! Thanks. :)

OM

Onkara
12 July 2011, 12:33 AM
Pranam Onkara
Thank you for your reply, Ganeshprasad, :)

Onkara
12 July 2011, 12:44 AM
Here again, my perennially inquisitive self. :p

So, I keep reading in the Bhagavad Gita that I am not the doer of actions. If not, then who is the doer of actions in my place? Is it simply prakriti - the movement of the elements in the form of gunas -, is it Ishvara?

If it is God who is doing everything, would this convict God of sin, or is He exempt from the laws of good and evil altogether, being as it were above them?

Namaste, and happy to learn submissively! :)

Namasté
As others have answered above, the Gunas, born of prakriti are the stimulant of our actions.

The Lord has no investment in our actions, be they good or evil. Because all actions occurs in the Lord, in His creation, He is still the Master. He can play a role and His role is always benign and pure goodness, but He doesn't need to interfere in samsara.

There is will, but will is always influenced by the gunas or/and our karma, so it is not free.

It is the sense of independence (Ahaṃkāra) due to the Lord's māyā that provides the sensation that all our actions are free. This is why the ignorant imagine "I am the doer" (BG 3.27) Some out of curiosity and some who arrive at the point where their "doing" causes more pain than pleasure, begin to look for the real "doer". Sri Krishna removes that doubt and explains it is the gunas (BG 3.27) for those who turn to Him.

The release is through surrender to the Lord, as one's true Self (Atman-Brahman). However once surrendered one can confirm that one was not the "doer", but once united with the Lord, the Lord's creation is a part of you and all that happens is happening as You. So there is still no free will even in jIvamoksha, but there is freedom through recognition that all that happens is happening because of you (Brahman).

It is precisely the clinging to the idea that there is free will which binds us to māyā.

Our will is never free, but whilst we think we are independent of the Lord, we accumulate the results of our action (karma) and are subject to the play of the gunas.

PS: I cannot see any other way around what I present, perhaps others can offer an alternative based on my post from their perception of scripture and understanding? :o

Mana
12 July 2011, 02:51 AM
Namasté All

Very nice post Onkara, I agree with you wholly.

The more we rely on ego to allow us our prised free will, the tighter the knot of entanglement of Karma. The more violent the sea of samsara. We rise on Rajasic highs only to fall into Tamasic troughs never realising who or what is creating the storm there is no predictable rhythm to follow.

When we let go of the ego we centre ourselves within, learning to surrender our hearts who are themselves guided part by our wisdom and part by our gut feeling. Gut feeling its self is related to our actions and our speech.

If we have diminished needs and no desires we act only in response to the world about us which through diminished karmic response becomes calm. The sea of samsara becomes still as the winds of the gunas drop away.

Harmony is created between the world and ourselves as we become a part of the dance.

Dancing to the music of both Karma and the gunas.

Om Shanti

Onkara
12 July 2011, 06:45 AM
Namasté All
(cut for space)

Harmony is created between the world and ourselves as we become a part of the dance.

Dancing to the music of both Karma and the gunas.

Om Shanti

Namasté Mana and all
Thank you.

If you don't mind I would like to elaborate a little further on something familiar to us, which you bring out in the analogy of the dance.

If we accept that surrender to the divine moves us from the gunas into unity with the divine. The next question is "if I am divine, then surely I am still the doer, for who can stop the divine from action?" This question arises because God is most certainly the creator (dancer) and if God and creation (the dance) are one, then despite the gunas acting, the gunas are still divine. We enter a new dilemma, in which if we accept that we are divine, as are the gunas, then we are still "the doer".

The vedantins maintain that as Brahman we are passive Consciousness (sat-chit-ananda) and all action is through the Lord's power of maya. I don't dispute this and for many this is satisfactory enough to rest within the divine being.

Personally I struggled with this conclusion and looked again. A respected member of this forum gracefully introduced me to the teaching of the Trika System and with it my questions were answered, here is a brief summary in my own words:

There is indeed no difference between the Creator and Creation. Between the divine and His powers, these are conceptually understood as Shiva-Shaki, two concepts for the One divine being.

The power to create, is the nature of the divine. The divine by its very own nature expands. The expansion that runs through all nature is Shakti.

So through us the expansion expands. The divine is acting through us, as us. The choice of words here, leads to a duality "through + us". Really there is no "us" as all is divine, we can come to know that through surrender and grace etc. So once this is accepted we can accept that expansion and our doing is in fact divine. There is a difference between the doing of those who still feel separated from the divine, in that they are still propelled by the gunas and the results of their mind i.e. desire, fear, lust, seeking of happiness etc and the karma that follows their actions.

As we have agreed above for those who surrendered to the divine and unite with the divine, "doing" is no longer done for the individual but they witness the unfoldment of their divine, one, non-dual being as divine Consciousness (Shiva). This, oddly enough, is the same goal and outcome as before, but the purpose of action has been answered again.

Any expansion, helpful criticism or improvement to this is welcome from any one. :o

NayaSurya
12 July 2011, 08:01 AM
I love love love your wonderful explanation of Trika<3

But let me take a moment to say...that I do believe in free will of a sort.

I don't think Beloved can experience surprise or fear without some level of hands off to our actions. To fully know surprise it would take a level of removed-ness to our actions here to provide this...

Also, because of such high level confused beings here we have things happen which appear out of Beloved's control because of this hands off approach. Such as the situations like mass murders where a shift in the balance happen. Ultimately, yes everything is done with permission of the One...there is no other.

But as I tell my children...."yes make a sandwhich" and they go into kitchen and bring back a sandwhich of Captain Crunch cereal instead of cheese...well this would be a surprise and a bit of free will involved.

Yes, if Beloved wanted to have His Beloved Hand upon every action, I am sure this would be so...but as I see it...

That would not bring the things which He came here to do in the first place. Experience...sharing.

If one is of the belief that Beloved created all of This for His own ability to share and experience. Then I think it wouldn't be hard to understand the necessity for some free will here in this realm. Yes, ultimately we are all Beloved, all moving upon His Divine Layers...so you could say He knows because We Know. But, it seems a bit more complicated than this as I know if experiences and sharing are our true reasons...then the blindfold is truly necessary.

There comes a time, as in my story...when with enough Knowledge and Truth that these Portions become aware of this movement around us and its purpose. Those costumes were symbols for our experiences here...our expectations and desires...taking them off and accepting that the doer is just a part of the Drama give Beloved an indication.

Mantra, song....japa...service to other Portions...removing ourselves from the action and simply observing...working through our karma till it is sufficiently burned up so that we are free to work out all of this above you speak of....all of these things tell Beloved we are not wanting to participate any longer.

What good are we then to this Divine Drama if We have become still?

Then as a fruit ripe on the tree, He come pluck us off and take us Home<3

kallol
12 July 2011, 09:26 AM
Pranam Kallol




there is no conflict of free will here although on the surface it sounds like it.
let me try an example although no example would fully justify what one says.

say you purchase a car, it comes with certain specification, so it would be reasonable for me to say that the car will function within it's limitation of spec, with us it is different, generally it functions within it's limitation but there is possibility to change the course, this would be done through extreme desire and hard work.

see our present body is result of our past Karma and desires, so the limitation or pre program is not against free will, but it was our free will that shaped the present body.


Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced.



within the constraint of the body we in turn create new karma through new desires.this is Kriyamana karma, we are creating in the present, the fruits of which will be experienced in the future. In this way a suitable vehicle is provided it was our desires and karma that pre programs it.


Jai Shree Krishna

Thanks for the explanation GP.

It is clear now

Love and best wishes

kallol
12 July 2011, 09:38 AM
My understanding :

The karmaphal out of Karma as a duty and karma out of attachment are different.

So karma by itself does not increase the rajas part untill the attachment is there.

The emotional fluctuations out of ego, desire, etc is responsible for altering the state of mind. This happens when we attach ourselves with the karmas.

The knowledgeable ones keep their minds steady while perfoming any karma - be it war.

Arjun fought the war as a duty towards dharma. Rama fought the war again as a duty towards dharma.

If any action or karma is based on desirelessness then the fluctuations in the mind is minimal.

These states are often acheived through living the right knowledge.

Love and best wishes

Ganeshprasad
12 July 2011, 11:23 AM
Pranam all

There are as many questions as there answers, depending from what angle one approaches we would find a small variation.

one thing for sure i have no doubt in my mind that the free will is essential ingredient for karma to take shape. i say this because Lord Shree Krishna says it. His words are infallible for those who believe in him.

Thus the knowledge that is more secret than the secret has been explained to you by Me. After fully reflecting on this, do as you wish . (18.63)
iti te jnanam akhyatam
guhyad guhyataram maya
vimrsyaitad asesena
yathecchasi tatha kuru

Jai Shree Krishna

Kismet
12 July 2011, 04:40 PM
Some great points all around guys. Just one thing about free will that may be of value.

There are some philosophers who believe free will and determinism are compatible (compatbilists). In this sense we are basically "fated" to do what we will. However, this does not negate free will because the decision itself to carry out actions remains ours. As long as we are self-possessed and know, for instance, that "this is what I want" regardless of the chemical or physical factors spurring us on, we can in that sense be said to be free, since it is our desire, our volition...

I personally do not agree entirely with this view, but I believe, in contradiction to a lot of others, that it does indeed have merit.

Mana
12 July 2011, 06:26 PM
Just to bring in another slant to this fascinating discussion, I feel this to be very relevant.

Here is a mathematical representation of the same conundrum. (http://math.bu.edu/DYSYS/arcadia/sect4.html)

One could be led to believe that the fern is drawn by chance yet it reappears every time. Who or what draws the fern? Is it the deterministic laws or the non-determined random "choices" of the flip of a coin?



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V5jgQSDrgf4/SoDckFp0svI/AAAAAAAAAB8/ZGXo2Ui2KTw/s1600/fern-fractal.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V5jgQSDrgf4/SoDckFp0svI/AAAAAAAAAB8/ZGXo2Ui2KTw/s1600-h/fern-fractal.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_V5jgQSDrgf4/SoDckFp0svI/AAAAAAAAAB8/ZGXo2Ui2KTw/s1600-h/fern-fractal.jpg (http://meme-evolution-and-culture.blogspot.com/2009/08/meme-chaos-complexity.html)


Could it be that there is a fractal boundary between the two states determined and nondetermined, that we are on it?


Om Shanti

kallol
13 July 2011, 06:51 AM
Clarity of thoughts is related to the ability to stop at the optimal point of the analysis. Over analysing may lead to confusion again. It is like reaching the peak and then moving down.

This ability to judge the point of clarity and stop there determines, the clarity of knowledge one is carrying or living.

This is true for all aspects of life and is also true for this subject also.

This clarity is also visible to the lesser knowledgeable people who are part of the discussion. If overdone, the lesser knowledgeable ones get confused again.

As the discussion continues, the mind runs amok, the analysis takes color, the distinct boundary becomes fuzzy and hazy.

We have already brought out many points of references and we are trying to define freewill wrt to the references. This might bring in confusion in many who are following the discussion.

I would rather leave at "Human has freewill to contribute considerably towards their future state"

Love and best wishes

Onkara
13 July 2011, 08:30 AM
Namast&#233; friends
I can see how this can become confusing. One issue with this is that we cannot contribute more than snippets of information, often this is not as complete as scripture (a book) and cannot address an individual's doubts as a Guru might.

I hope my last posts didn't add to the confusion and I would be happy to address any doubts.

My position remains that it is precisely the clinging to the idea that there is free will which binds us to māyā. There is will (Svātantrya), but it is never free at the empirical level of body-mind.

Will is never free as it is always preconditioned by the gunas and karma, as per the Bhagavad Gita, the doer is the gunas, no matter how difficult that is to accept. Hear the Lord:

No one for even a moment
Exists without doing action;
Each is forced to perform action–
Even against his will–by gunas. 3.5

All actions, in all instances,
Are done by Prakriti’s gunas;
Those with ego-deluded mind
Imagine: “I am the doer.” 3.27

And yet, the man who knows the truth
About the gunas’ actions thinks:
“The gunas act in the gunas,”
And thinking thus is not attached. 3.28

Those deluded by the gunas
Of prakriti become attached
To their actions. Let not the wise
Upset these of partial knowledge. 3.29

There is no entity on earth,
Or in heaven among the gods,
Found devoid of these three gunas,
Born of Prakriti, Arjuna. 17.40

The Holy Lord said:
I am, indeed, mighty world-destroying Time,
Here made manifest for destroying the world.
Even without you, none of the warriors here
Arrayed within the hostile armies shall live. 11.32
- Bhagavad Gita.

Ganeshprasad
13 July 2011, 08:48 AM
Pranam

Not wishing to repeat my self, i just add one thing to above, Guna the asta prakriti this body is made off is Jada, material, just like a car without a driver it is useless.

Jai Shree Krishna

Onkara
13 July 2011, 09:03 AM
Pranam

Not wishing to repeat my self, i just add one thing to above, Guna the asta prakriti this body is made off is Jada, material, just like a car without a driver it is useless.

Jai Shree Krishna

I agree with you, respected Ganeshprasad :)
The ultimate "driver" in your analogy is the Atman, and for the non-dualists Atman is verily Brahman. Once the aspirant knows their Self as Atman-Brahman and prakriti as Brahman, then the question as to "who is the doer" has been resolved, does anyone disagree? :)

NayaSurya
13 July 2011, 09:08 AM
No one for even a moment
Exists without doing action;
Each is forced to perform action–
Even against his will–by gunas. 3.5

The Holy Lord said:
I am, indeed, mighty world-destroying Time,
Here made manifest for destroying the world.
Even without you, none of the warriors here
Arrayed within the hostile armies shall live. 11.32
- Bhagavad Gita.


Yes, we have to act. But this last phrase..."we all are bound to act...even against our own will" ...(which would be perhaps to "not to act").

This does not mean we do not choose which actions...it means we will act and we are bound to act.

So perhaps we sometimes do choose...even if it would be in accordance to our karma this lifetime. So not so "free" as we would seem...but to choose the big black gun or the small silver to shoot ten people in a mall? It's a small choice...but one none the less. To have 8 children or six.....or 10? Large number, one more or one less makes not much difference in our larger picture.

We have to act...and it will be aligned with our gunas. But this is a vastly great amount of spice to be added to this Drama...a lot of wiggle room to act within these larger facets of our incarnation within these vessels.

As Arjuna chose...to act and do our duty...or to not act? If Arjuna had not acted that day...Krishna would have stopped the lesson and found another way to teach us this Truth, I believe this is what Beloved meant when He said this.

"Arjuna...do your duty...either you or I...will do this...it will be done."



Then I find one of these phrases such a Jewel amongst Jewels...a direct Truth for all of us dealing with our families and what to say about SD.

Those deluded by the gunas
Of prakriti become attached
To their actions. Let not the wise
Upset these of partial knowledge. 3.29

Beloved giving us the Truth...about ones still new upon the path. Do not come and disturb their simple joy of Being within this Drama.

This should set anyone at ease who is often, still not telling other Portions just exactly what you have discovered if they are not ready.

NayaSurya
13 July 2011, 09:10 AM
I agree with you, respected Ganeshprasad :)
The ultimate "driver" in your analogy is the Atman, and for the non-dualists Atman is verily Brahman. Once the aspirant knows their Self as Atman-Brahman and prakriti as Brahman, then the question as to "who is the doer" has been resolved, does anyone disagree? :)

Agree<3

Ganeshprasad
13 July 2011, 10:15 AM
Pranam Onkara


I agree with you, respected Ganeshprasad :)
The ultimate "driver" in your analogy is the Atman, and for the non-dualists Atman is verily Brahman. Once the aspirant knows their Self as Atman-Brahman and prakriti as Brahman, then the question as to "who is the doer" has been resolved, does anyone disagree? :)

Yes it would be true for a non dualist to conclude so but for a dualist it would be different. using the same analogy of a car, the maker and the drivers are not necessary to be the same.

Ishvara is Gunaatit beyond the sway of Guna, so question does not arise as for his doer ship or weather he has free will or not

Jai Shree Krishan

Onkara
13 July 2011, 10:25 AM
Pranam Onkara



Yes it would be true for a non dualist to conclude so but for a dualist it would be different. using the same analogy of a car, the maker and the drivers are not necessary to be the same.

Ishvara is Gunaatit beyond the sway of Guna, so question does not arise as for his doer ship or weather he has free will or not

Jai Shree Krishan
Namast&#233;

I agree that Ishvara is Gunaatit and beyond the Gunas, and so when we realise that we are not separate from Ishvara we go beyond the Gunas also.

However I would like to better understand the dualist perspective, because there is some confusion on whether the inner ruler, Atman or antaryAmin, actually acts (is the doer) or not in one book I have read.

But what of us indivduals - jIva - in the dualistic sense, isn't it still the Gunas which cause the jIva to act?

yajvan
13 July 2011, 01:38 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


Let me offer one idea for the HDF reader's consideration.

This whole notion of doing is a very big deal. We are talking of kāraka कारक - the doer, making , doing ,
acting , who or what does or produces or creates. Some call this kartā - the agent.

When we talk of this it is very intricate and subtle. To those that are deeply steeped in ignorance
( moha&#185;) this concept or idea can be mis-taken and bent to meet one's mischief.

The ignorant may think, Oh I am not the doer, then let me do this... let me take anothers wealth, wife, home.
Since I have not done this there is no harm. I am not the doer.

What then of this effect (kārya&#185;) ? What good came from this knowledge to those that may pick and choose
the various qualities of truth.

For this we need to be mindful on how we explain this wisdom and to whom.

praṇām

words

moha - darkness or delusion of mind (preventing the discernment of truth and leading men to
believe in the reality of worldly objects)
kārya - motive , object , aim , purpose Hence kiṃ kāryam , for what purpose was this action done ?

NayaSurya
13 July 2011, 02:44 PM
Yajvan, I do think this is why Beloved warns us to keep these conversations very much between the Kindred Kind and not to disturb the Drama upon the stage.

It would be as if one in the audience, full knowing the outcome of the play...began to shout out what would occur..."He is going to die next scene!!"

This would disturb some, ruin it for others...and maybe the actors come up off the stage to settle their grievances with this one so loud in the audience.

But! Beloved did build in a failproof back up/contingency system just incase this knowledge come to a Beloved Portion so confused it have a more of a nepharious nature.

Just as in biology..the malfunctioning cell is eaten by the phagocytes to keep the system healthy.

Still, it far better to live healthy (not disturb others) and thereby less chance of creating free radical cells(ones who use this knowledge to harm) than to take them out once they settle in and begin to become a growth...as Beloved Krishna and Arjuna had to do, so many years ago.

Karma is a wonderful machine...and a frightfully ominous one...depending upon what side of the fence you rest.:p

Eastern Mind
13 July 2011, 03:51 PM
For this we need to be mindful on how we explain this wisdom and to whom.



Vannakkam: No kidding! I continue to find your subtle wit in expression of such things oddly funny. Thanks.
:)

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
13 July 2011, 04:07 PM
Pranam


Namast&#233;



However I would like to better understand the dualist perspective, because there is some confusion on whether the inner ruler, Atman or antaryAmin, actually acts (is the doer) or not in one book I have read.

Have a look at Naya's signature, two birds on the tree, antaryAmin remains witness from whom memory, intelligence and forgetfulness comes, this Krishna confirms in Gita.



But what of us indivduals - jIva - in the dualistic sense, isn't it still the Gunas which cause the jIva to act?Yes and no, we have discussed this earlier but just to recap, gunas in a particular body are Parabadh. perpetual motion of sansar chakra is such, one forgets what is the cause and what is the affect. all i can repeat is that the body is Jada.

I could not end without mentioning Yajvan, the word responsibility comes to mind. His words of caution are well appreciated .


Jai Shree Krishna

Onkara
15 July 2011, 10:35 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Let me offer one idea for the HDF reader's consideration.

This whole notion of doing is a very big deal. We are talking of kāraka कारक - the doer, making , doing ,
acting , who or what does or produces or creates. Some call this kartā - the agent.

When we talk of this it is very intricate and subtle. To those that are deeply steeped in ignorance
( moha¹) this concept or idea can be mis-taken and bent to meet one's mischief.

The ignorant may think, Oh I am not the doer, then let me do this... let me take anothers wealth, wife, home.
Since I have not done this there is no harm. I am not the doer.

What then of this effect (kārya¹) ? What good came from this knowledge to those that my pick and choose
the various qualities of truth.

For this we need to be mindful on how we explain this wisdom and to whom.

praṇām

words

moha - darkness or delusion of mind (preventing the discernment of truth and leading men to
believe in the reality of worldly objects)
kārya - motive , object , aim , purpose Hence kiṃ kāryam , for what purpose was this action done ?

Namasté
The individual who act as such acts from rajas or tamas guna in that deluded they still follow their desires.

It is not the teaching of Krishna which is at fault (you are not suggesting it its) but until the devotee has transcended the gunas any excuse will do. Watching one's own mind we will see that we can justify any action, no matter how hiddeous or kind, what still lies at hand is that we acted because we felt propelled to act.

It isn't my intention to labour a well discussed point of "free will versus determination" but I hope to uncover the wolf in sheep's clothing by picking up on the point that the wolf will justify himself even in God's name. The remedy is that we each must answer to our true Self in the end.

:)

SOV
15 July 2011, 01:47 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




Oh I am not the doer, then let me do this...


:headscratch:
If any person, Ignorant or wise, thinks -i am not the doer- How can he indulge in anything?
Before one decides to rob a person's wealth, does he think-i am not the doer and hence i need not rob or let me rob the person(notion of doer). However, thinking-i am not the doer- is possible only for the wise. The rest may just talk about it.

Mana
15 July 2011, 02:47 PM
Namast&#233; SOV

For your consideration.

If you become illuminated you may illuminate others; it is neither you that is illuminated nor illuminating. You are a simple light bulb. An every day light bulb getting hot because of a flow of electrons.
There are millions of light bulbs, not all of them get plugged in. All of them equally capable of emitting light. There would be no light of this kind without the bulb yet it is not the bulb which makes the light, it only gets hot because it can't deal with the electricity any other way.

This is a description of a spiritual transfer of energy it says nothing of right and wrong and as to whether or not to steal from your neighbour.

The words we write the laws we make are they inspired by illumination?
What is our true motivation?

We should ask our selves these question every time we act.


Om Shanti

Mana

yajvan
15 July 2011, 04:07 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


:headscratch:
Before one decides to rob a person's wealth, does he think-i am not the doer and hence i need not rob or let me rob the person(notion of doer). However, thinking-i am not the doer- is possible only for the wise. The rest may just talk about it.

The point to be made here is those that do not comprehend this knowledge and use it ( in a twisted manner) for their favor. Intellectully some one can say, with this knowledge I have gained I understand I am not the doer, so let me not worry about the choices I make. I do not really understand this, but they tell me I am not the doer, so be it, I will then do as I please.

This is deeply steeped in ignorance ( moha) .

praṇām

kallol
15 July 2011, 10:20 PM
This is the confusion which I thought to discuss through the thread "Exploring "I"".

The ones who are unable to distinguish between "I" and I, will always be in the confusion of mixing intellect, mind, etc in the doer and non-doer.

The ones who have the ability to distinguish between these two, will not be so much pertrubed about the condition of the mind (that one is able to distinguish, itself is a statement of the condition of mind).

Mind being the driver of the body in the presence of Consciousness ("I"), is part of the matter principle (prakriti, aparaprakriti, maya, etc) and will ever remain within the realms of gunas (however less they are). Mind is a part of ahamkara or can change only through ahamkara.

One can go on improving the condition of mind, however cannot escape the cycle of birth and death. Doer only goes through this cycle.

The movement towards higher conditioned mind (less gunas), is through the ability to keep the I more in the intellect (driven mind) than in the mind. This is another topic I had started with the hope to discuss more - "Rajas and Stavik".

There are two aspects to our knowledge - one to align our mind our knowledge to the permanent principle which is consciousness (this will liberate us from the percieved pain of birth and death) and the other to condition the mind to slow down the cycle of birth and death.

The knowledge of the first one generally leads to the second one, though for the initial part we need a refined mind to understand "I". Once that understanding is developed the second part moves faster towards further refinement.

Love and best wishes

devotee
15 July 2011, 10:53 PM
Namaste SOV,


:headscratch:
If any person, Ignorant or wise, thinks -i am not the doer- How can he indulge in anything?
Before one decides to rob a person's wealth, does he think-i am not the doer and hence i need not rob or let me rob the person(notion of doer). However, thinking-i am not the doer- is possible only for the wise. The rest may just talk about it.

Because of such terrible confusion that it might create, this Brahma-Jnana was reserved for only the best of pupils but somehow it became diluted later on.

First of all, what is doing ? "Doing" is not simply "action by hands/feet" .... the "doing" start with "thinking". Now who is thinking ? When the person has "I" left in him how can he absolve himself from the attachment to the karma he is doing ? "I should rob" ... "I should not rob" has inherent "I" in the thought process & so it has the seeds of attachment. Therefore, "I am not the doer" can happen when this "I" merges with the Cosmic "I" & not before that. When there is left only one "I" devoid of any concept or trace of "others" ... how can there be any karma against "anyone" ?

Lord Krishna says, "Ahamkaar Vimoodhatma kartaham iti manyate" .... so the root cause is "moha" (delusion) due to attachment to "I" (or Ahamkara .... "Aham" means "I" ). So, the doership can be terminated only by terminating this delusion caused by attachment to "I". Let's dissolve our "i" to the Cosmic "I" and then let's see whether there is any thought left to harm the "other".

OM

Mana
16 July 2011, 03:43 AM
To understand the dangers of Jnana yoga, to see the razors edge to this path. Look up "pathological narcissism".

These tortured souls are in hell.

Content in the knowledge that they are God the ignorant deluded ones feed directly from those around them. Rather than emitting light they emit darkness. Requiring ignorance in others to maintain their delusions.

Ermmm can we change the subject to something a little lighter?


Om Shanti

Eastern Mind
16 July 2011, 06:57 AM
Vannakkam Mana: So a man walks into a bar ..... and bruises his torso.

As for whenever topics turn serious ... 'in one ear and out the other' works for me. Pretty much empty headed anyway, so its easy.

Aum Namasivaya

Mana
16 July 2011, 08:10 AM
Hehehe Thank you Eastern Mind!


'in one ear and out the other' works for me.


Ahhh you have the delux selective hearing model, lucky thing.

I'm still trying to find the on off switch for mine but I never read the instructions, just started pressing all the buttons!

;)

Mana

SOV
16 July 2011, 08:19 AM
Very Interesting responses.

Every single line of the post was copied and pasted from an old text.

The truth is, I'm not surprised. Please carry on with the discussions. Accept only those which are Politically Correct and which is agreeable to you. Don't even care to come out of your comfort zones. Don't let anyone destroy your ego. Call him crazy and continue living your life.

If you have anything valid to say, point out the mistake of that post.

Mana
16 July 2011, 08:43 AM
Very Interesting responses.

Every single line of the post was copied and pasted from an old text.

The truth is, I'm not surprised. Please carry on with the discussions. Accept only those which are Politically Correct and which is agreeable to you. Don't even care to come out of your comfort zones. Don't let anyone destroy your ego. Call him crazy and continue living your life.

If you have anything valid to say, point out the mistake of that post.


Very interesting your reaction.

There are no mistakes, no right and wrong only nature taking its course through the gunas.

My intention was not to criticise you only to highlight the danger in taking wisdom out of context.

Are you reading things between the lines which are not there?


Peace

Mana

SOV
16 July 2011, 08:56 AM
Are you reading things between the lines which are not there?



You are.

Ekoham
19 July 2011, 02:56 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Let me offer one idea for the HDF reader's consideration.

This whole notion of doing is a very big deal. We are talking of kāraka कारक - the doer, making , doing ,
acting , who or what does or produces or creates. Some call this kartā - the agent.

When we talk of this it is very intricate and subtle. To those that are deeply steeped in ignorance
( moha¹) this concept or idea can be mis-taken and bent to meet one's mischief.

The ignorant may think, Oh I am not the doer, then let me do this... let me take anothers wealth, wife, home.
Since I have not done this there is no harm. I am not the doer.

What then of this effect (kārya¹) ? What good came from this knowledge to those that may pick and choose
the various qualities of truth.

For this we need to be mindful on how we explain this wisdom and to whom.

praṇām

words

moha - darkness or delusion of mind (preventing the discernment of truth and leading men to
believe in the reality of worldly objects)
kārya - motive , object , aim , purpose Hence kiṃ kāryam , for what purpose was this action done ?

Namaste Yajvanji,

Can you elaborate on your view in simple language as to "Who is the doer?" you believe.

Pranam

Ekoham