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cbrahma
25 December 2006, 07:51 AM
The simplicity of the chanting process is deceptive. It is a flower that hides a thorny complicated systems of rules , offenses and last but not least a formal initiation process which for all intents and purposes makes the disciple a slave of the guru. From my perspective that makes it a dangerous form of mind control.

sm78
25 December 2006, 08:32 AM
Out of control minds have little hope in anything (good things) anyway.

cbrahma
25 December 2006, 09:40 AM
Out of control minds have little hope in anything (good things) anyway.
Emphasis on the word dangerous. A mind controlled by others is quite likely to do no good, being less than human, chained like a animal

atanu
25 December 2006, 11:32 AM
Emphasis on the word dangerous. A mind controlled by others is quite likely to do no good, being less than human, chained like a animal

Namaste,

Who controls your mind when you hold it concentrated and who controls it when it flies off without your knowing?

Automatons cannot exercise free will to control the inbuilt processes and animals have least control over their instincts. What would you prefer?

Though I am not n love with Gaudiya sampradaya myself but that does not mean that japam is enslaving.

It can appear so in the beginning but not when results come in. Anyway, upto him.

Best Wishes.

atanu
25 December 2006, 12:00 PM
What's enslaving about diksa nonsense is having to be owned by another human being. Ask an African whose ancestors were slaves. Nothing good can come of it. How would you be in the right frame of mind to even evaluate results? Semantics about the definition of freedom don't qualify. Scary sick.


Your subject was "chanting", my dear.

And regarding Diksa. Didn't you attend a school? Was it not enslaving? Have you not heard that Pink Floyd song? But, I suppose still you did go there. If you are destined for diksa you will get it.

cbrahma
25 December 2006, 12:35 PM
Read the original post, sweetie. The role of guru as teacher is siska NOT diksa, which is an eternal master/slave relationship. In school there are many teachers and students have a life apart from the school.



It is a flower that hides a thorny complicated systems of rules , offenses and last but not least a formal initiation process which for all intents and purposes makes the disciple a slave of the guru.




Your subject was "chanting", my dear.

And regarding Diksa. Didn't you attend a school? Was it not enslaving? Have you not heard that Pink Floyd song? But, I suppose still you did go there. If you are destined for diksa you will get it.

yajvan
25 December 2006, 12:42 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste,
I see this is an interesting conversation on chanting and will stay on the sidelines...my only contribution is the number found in the mala beads, most notably 108 ( or divisions there of). Its not unsual to see a 109th bead for the guru, but for this post let me discuss the 108.

Where does this come from? From a Jyotish perspective, its seen as the 1/9th division of a birth chart. That is, 30 degree's divided by 9 = 3 degree's 20 minutes of an arc or 3.333 degrees. If you take 360 degree's or on full trip around the sun ( or one full trip around a mala) and divide it by 3.333 degree's one ends up with 108.
Now, why is 9 of any import? There are 9 graha's in Jyotish vedanga. The 1/9 divisional chart is called the Navamsa , yet is recognized as the dharma-amsa, or Dharma-division. This division says much on ones dharma. It is also used for spouse and relationships.

The grahas outline ones promise, potential and possibilities in this life, so the 9 play a role in our lives, both materially and spiritually. One may chant for one's spiritual advancement, some for appeasement, transcending, etc. as one cycles though the 108 beads. What is of interest is each division ( the 108 in the chart) is associated with a sound or nama nakshatra. This starts in the rasi of Aries ( Mesha) and starts with the sound of Chu, then Chay, Cho,Lah, Lee Loo Lay Loh, Ah for this first 9 divisions. For each 1/9th divison there is a sound, so 108 sounds.Now, pending the sound of ones Janma Nakshata, or the sign Chandra occupies upon your birth, this sound is of interest as it resinates with the native.

The Graha's also has sound assocaited with them, that stimulate that creative impulse in ourselves and in our surroundings e.g. Sun - A, AA, E, EE, U, OU, RI , REE, LRI, LREE, AE, AEI, O, OW. Yo will find bija mantra's designed around these simple sounds that stimulate cause-and-effect for the native. So, coming full circle we have a 108 mala bead, and we can 'hang' certain sounds on them, mantra's.

pranams,
" Make friends with the sky" Frank Sinatra

cbrahma
25 December 2006, 12:50 PM
What mantra are you talking about. As far as I know GVaisnavas chant the HareKrsna mantra upon initiation.The chanting is considered useless without that initiation.

yajvan
25 December 2006, 05:43 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

What mantra are you talking about. As far as I know GVaisnavas chant the HareKrsna mantra upon initiation.The chanting is considered useless without that initiation.
Hello Cbrahma,
I could not tell if your question was for me, or for satay...
I am not familiar with GVaisnavas. Regarding Chanting, are you associating this with my post on mala bead 108 origination? If so, then the Harekrsna mantra is called Mahamantra. The Janaka shadakshara mantra, from rishi Janaka is a bit smaller in length, Hare Ram Krsna, and affects the 6th house (one of service) in a native's birth chart. Both of these come under the guidance of pra-siddha mantras, recited by anyone irrespective of a guru or not.

I will wait a bit till the polemics (jalpa) in this overall conversation ( on chanting) turns to discussion (vada), before taking these ideas further. This great knowledge is beneath the dignity of getting 'beaten up' .

What is the difference between jalpa and vada? Jalpa is argument for victory; vada is opposing discussions with the intent of arriving at the truth .This comes under the science of reasoning, or nyaya, which I choose to subscribe to. It requires one to , at times, leave one's ego at the door.

pranams,

saidevo
25 December 2006, 07:15 PM
The simplicity of the chanting process is deceptive. It is a flower that hides a thorny complicated systems of rules , offenses and last but not least a formal initiation process which for all intents and purposes makes the disciple a slave of the guru. From my perspective that makes it a dangerous form of mind control.

Human mind is like a rocket when it soars in the space of spirituality. Both an airplane and a rocket cannot reach their destination without a platform to launch them and a mission control to monitor their flight progress. A true guru who stands up to the meaning of the letters 'gu' and 'ru' that make his name knows when to control the mind of his disciple and when to let it soar on its own. One might think doing the personal chores of a guru as slavery, but this is meant to wipe off the personal ego of the disciple. I heard that in Sri Sri Ravishankar's AOL sessions, shedding the ego is one of the first teachings, where a member is asked to do things in full view of the other members. The things include crawling, barking like dog, dancing, singing, etc.--generally chores that would lesson the personal ego.

When chanting is undertaken without a guru, God takes the place of the guru.

satay
25 December 2006, 09:11 PM
namaste to all,
my apologies to all for trolling the thread.

sm78
26 December 2006, 12:55 AM
I can't say looking at the OP and other posts of the OP'r that the thread had any other intention.

Sudarshan
07 January 2007, 07:06 AM
What mantra are you talking about. As far as I know GVaisnavas chant the HareKrsna mantra upon initiation.The chanting is considered useless without that initiation.

Yes, all mantrAs are considered invalid without proper initiation. It is like reading a book on engineering and claiming oneself to be an engineer. Mantras are meditated upon in many tones like Vaikhari, Madhyama, Pashyanti and Para, which get more and more subtle with the advancement of the sAdhak. Chanting is also a form of valid mantra meditation named tara, where the mantra is recited fairly loudly.

The idea is to be retain ones concentration on the mantra. Usually madhyama svara is used by beginners, where mantra is audible to oneself. As he progresses, mantra is no longer audible and recited in the mind.

You must use the tone that best befits you or the svara prescribed by the guru. If you do not have experience in very silent meditation, chanting might be an ideal way to begin with.

yajvan
07 January 2007, 09:34 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Yes, all mantrAs are considered invalid without proper initiation. It is like reading a book on engineering and claiming oneself to be an engineer. Mantras are meditated upon in many tones like Vaikhari, Madhyama, Pashyanti and Para, which get more and more subtle with the advancement of the sAdhak. Chanting is also a form of valid mantra meditation named tara, where the mantra is recited fairly loudly.

The idea is to be retain ones concentration on the mantra. Usually madhyama svara is used by beginners, where mantra is audible to oneself. As he progresses, mantra is no longer audible and recited in the mind.

You must use the tone that best befits you or the svara prescribed by the guru. If you do not have experience in very silent meditation, chanting might be an ideal way to begin with.

Namaste Sudarshan,
Thank you for your post...in mantra shastra it is advisable to have diksha initiation to bring siddhi to the native. Yet there is a body of mantras where this is not the case but if one had the great fortune of receiving diksha from a guru, called gurupadesatoh mantra, the boon is obvious.

When given from a qualified guru it comes from the supreme state of consciousness or para-vac or transcendental speech. when auditable to the sisya, it then is vaikhari, with phonemes from 'a' to 'ksh' or akshara, the imparishable.

Yet with mantras, we see them as Pra-siddha mantra, those that can be recited by any native desiring progress, upliftment, moksha, given or not given by guru.
There is also kamya-siddha mantra given for a specific purpose, by the guru i.e. shanti, vasyam, stambhanam, marana, etc.

What would be a Pra-siddha mantra example
Panchakshari mantra Namah sivaya or Shadakshari mantra Om namah sivaya. If one follows Visnu, a Panchakshari mantra would be Astakshari mantra Om Namo narayanaya.
That said, and perhaps on a different post we can go deeper and wide, lets consider some of the mantra shastra rules for mantra depolyment and design.

Mantroddhara - source of the mantra. Example the famous dwadaskshari mantra , Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya comes from Madhusudana stotra.
Purascharana - number of repetitions - 108 is popular, yet there is a formula that suggest how many reptitions are needed to gain siddhi. In general, It’s the number of syllables in the mantra in lakhs. So, dwadaskshari mantra, to make efficacious, requires an minimum 12 lakhs ( some say laksha, lectcham) or 12 X 100,000 = 1,200,000 ( some write as 12,00,000)
THIS is where the native faults or throws in the towel. ' I have been doing this for a month and see no results ….' . The perscribed repetitions, down at the right time sandhya, etc. and the sadhu gives up.
Samskara - or the yajya connected with the mantra - that is janana, dipana, bodhana, tadana, abhisheka, etc.
Devata - the right divya for the aspirant.
Chaitanya - infusing the mantra with energy ( here the guru, and his tradition has done this and has built the siddhi over time)
Rishi - the giver of the mantra , and recognition of rishi, chhandas, and devata ( see my new post if you care to, with the same name, rishi, chhandas, and devata - http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=9372#post9372 Your comments are welcomed.
Anga - the limbs of the mantra.
Sadhana - the practice.
Note there are 8 components - this is not by chance, as the 8th house of ones rasi chart is a moksa house ( As is the 4th and the 12th). Many moksha mantras are 'built' with this in mind i.e. , Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya , stimulates/enlivens the 12th house.

Now there is a whole body of knowledge on suitability of the mantra to the native, sadhu, or akshara samudaya. We can leave this for another time, yet The Pra-siddha mantras are exempt from these rules.

pranams,

shian
23 April 2007, 02:13 PM
I have any question, please help me…
Why the name of Krishna chant with name of Rama? Why always Rama and krisna?
thank you...^^...

yajvan
23 April 2007, 06:56 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

I have any question, please help me…
Why the name of Krishna chant with name of Rama? Why always Rama and krisna?
thank you...^^...


Namaste shian,
Much has been written on this, and you will have little trouble findng info on this matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Krishna#History

That said this Maha Mantra is said to be for those living in Kali yuga.

Now, there are many mantras for Krsna only, as there are for Sri Ram.
What is of interest is the Maha mantra is 16 syllables or 4X4 = 16.
Why do I mention this? each 4th house of ones janma Kundali ( birth chart) is a Moksa house ( that of Liberation) so the the 1st 4th house, then the 8th, then the 12th house - all moksa houses. Then back to the 4th house again , or one full trip around ones birth chart.
This Maha Mantra stimulates liberation/Moksha.

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu suggests this is the best mantra for one and all in this period. You will also read that some have started the Mantra as Hare Rama vs. Hare Krsna to begin this mantra.

The seed (bija) mantra for Krsna is Kleem, and the seed Mantra for Ram is Shreem,
Yet having the name of the lord on one's lips ( Rama and Krsna) is auspicious e.g. Kleem Krishnaya Nama and Om Sri Ramaya Namaha.

There is one more post you can read if you wish. This will discuss taraka mantra's : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10956&postcount=1

hope this helps...please ask more questions as you see fit.

Jai Ram Jai Ram Jai Jai Ram


pranams,

Arvind Sivaraman
24 April 2007, 04:39 AM
I have any question, please help me…
Why the name of Krishna chant with name of Rama? Why always Rama and krisna?
thank you...^^...



Great Saints have constantly mentioned the name of Lord Rama and Lord Krishna so that one can attain moksha.(Go to superior lokas.)
Also,Lord Rama and Lord Krishna are the two most popular Gods in the Dasa(Ten)Avatharams.(Incarnations.)
Besides the two great epics,Srimad Valmiki Ramaayanam and The Mahabharatha(Written by Sage Ved Vyasa),Sage Ved Vyasa could attain satisfaction only after writing the Srimad Bhagavatha puranaa.
Similarly Lord Hanuman is one of the most dedicated servants of Lord Rama.He will be ever present as long as he Sun is present in the world.

To attain moksha (Superior Lokas) we say:
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare.

Agnideva
24 April 2007, 09:49 AM
Namaste Shian,

I have any question, please help me…
Why the name of Krishna chant with name of Rama? Why always Rama and krisna?
thank you...^^...
This is a very important maha mantra recited in Vaishnava Hinduism. The names of Rama and Krishna are chanted together because Rama and Krishna are forms or incarnations of Mahavishnu-Narayana, the Supreme God in Vaishnava Hinduism.

OM Shanti,
A.

yajvan
24 April 2007, 10:47 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Great Saints have constantly mentioned the name of Lord Rama and Lord Krishna so that one can attain moksha.(Go to superior lokas.) Also,Lord Rama and Lord Krishna are the two most popular Gods in the Dasa(Ten)Avatharams.(Incarnations.)


Namaste Arvind, shian, AD, and Sudarshan,
I have a slighly different view on chanting and on the number of Avatara we recognize.
My goal is not to be difficult yet to pass on the teaching/readings I have been
fortunate to have received:


In mantra shastra it is advisable to have diksha initiation to bring siddhi to the native. Yet there is a body of mantras where this is not the case but if one had the great fortune of receiving diksha from a guru, called gurupadesatoh mantra, the boon is obvious.

When given from a qualified guru it comes from the supreme state of consciousness or para-vac or transcendental speech. when auditable to the sisya, it then is vaikhari, with phonemes from 'a' to 'ksh' or akshara, the imparishable.

Yet with mantras, we see them as Pra-siddha mantra, those that can be recited by any native desiring progress, upliftment, moksha, given or not given by guru. There is also kamya-siddha mantra given for a specific purpose, by the guru i.e. shanti, vasyam, stambhanam, marana, etc
From the post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9370&postcount=14 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9370&postcount=14)

On Avatara
We usally think of the dasa-avatara of Visnu , yet there are 25 I believe… If we look to the Srimad Bhagavatam purana, Twenty-two avatars of Vishnu are called out:

1. Catursana - The Four Sons of Brahma or the 4 kumara's Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanandana and Sanat-Kumara who is also called Skanda . Jai Skandaye namaha! The remover of knots from the heart.
2. Varaha -The boar
3. Narada -The Traveling Sage
4. Nara-Narayana - The Twins; some even say they are Arjuna and Krsna!
5. Kapila - the wise philosopher
6. Dattatreya - Combined Avatar of the trimurthi
7. Yajna- Vishnu temporarily taking the role of Indra (divine mind)
8. Rishabha- Father of Bharata
9. Prithu - King who made earth beautiful and attractive
10. Matsya -The Fish
11. Kurma -The Tortoise
12. Dhanvantari -Father of Ayurveda
13. Mohini -(Beautiful/Charming Woman - ( I know little of her)
14. Narasimha -The Man-Lion; very devoted to is followers
15. Vamana- The Dwarf - yet is able to pace out creation in 3 steps
16. Parasurama - Rama with an Axe ; remover of injustice of the kasatriya (3 times!)
17. Vyasa - Ved Vyasa and composer of the Mahabrahata and organizer of the Vedas, preparing for Kali yuga
18. Ramachandra- The King of Ayodhya, and Brahm, the perfect man/leader ( Jai Sri Ram!)
19. Balarama -Krishna's Elder Brother
20. Krishna - (The Cowherder, Keshava and son of Vasudeva: Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; The Universal Self, the Fountainhead of all
21. Buddha -The Middle Way, some call the reformer
22. Kalki-The Destroyer - yet to come in Kali yuga

Besides these, another three avatars are described later on in the text as follows and I knowe little about them:
23. Prshnigarbha -Born to Prshni
24. Hayagriva - The Horse
25. Hamsa -The Swan

This makes 25, yet, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is also listed as an avatar and recognized by the Vaishnava tradition.

pranams,

Jigar
24 April 2007, 05:12 PM
To attain moksha (Superior Lokas) we say:
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare.


Namaste,
This chant creates the desire in me to shave my head and leave a pony tail while wearing an orange kurta.

Attention please; I am now attempting to hijack this thread. All questions must be answered or yu will be mal treated or something. Anyways...

Is this mandatory for Hare Krishna devotees to go through this process? I consider myself a modern day Hare Krshna of 89% devotional faith without those deeds.

Swas Tik hai,
person of the stairs
viola!

Arvind Sivaraman
24 April 2007, 11:32 PM
Namaste,
This chant creates the desire in me to shave my head and leave a pony tail while wearing an orange kurta.

Attention please; I am now attempting to hijack this thread. All questions must be answered or yu will be mal treated or something. Anyways...

Is this mandatory for Hare Krishna devotees to go through this process? I consider myself a modern day Hare Krshna of 89% devotional faith without those deeds.

Swas Tik hai,
person of the stairs
viola!

Om Shiridi Sai Ram.
Namaste Jigar.
Your queries need to be sorted by your Sadguru only.

satay
24 April 2007, 11:32 PM
Great Saints have constantly mentioned the name of Lord Rama and Lord Krishna so that one can attain moksha.(Go to superior lokas.)
Also,Lord Rama and Lord Krishna are the two most popular Gods in the Dasa(Ten)Avatharams.(Incarnations.)
Besides the two great epics,Srimad Valmiki Ramaayanam and The Mahabharatha(Written by Sage Ved Vyasa),Sage Ved Vyasa could attain satisfaction only after writing the Srimad Bhagavatha puranaa.
Similarly Lord Hanuman is one of the most dedicated servants of Lord Rama.He will be ever present as long as he Sun is present in the world.

To attain moksha (Superior Lokas) we say:
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare.

namaste,
Although this is the way I received this mantra from my grandmother I noticed that sri prabhupada chanted it as 'hare krishna hare krishna...' i.e. other way around.

I say it mentally either way it comes in my mind first, especially, while walking...

But What's the proper traditional way?

satay
24 April 2007, 11:44 PM
Namaste,
This chant creates the desire in me to shave my head and leave a pony tail while wearing an orange kurta.

Attention please; I am now attempting to hijack this thread. All questions must be answered or yu will be mal treated or something. Anyways...

Is this mandatory for Hare Krishna devotees to go through this process? I consider myself a modern day Hare Krshna of 89% devotional faith without those deeds.

Swas Tik hai,
person of the stairs
viola!

namaste,
Not sure what you are talking about. What's wrong with shaving one's head?

Do you have specific questions about ISKCON? Please post them in the appropriate forum/subforum.

Thanks,

Arvind Sivaraman
24 April 2007, 11:48 PM
namaste,
Although this is the way I received this mantra from my grandmother I noticed that sri prabhupada chanted it as 'hare krishna hare krishna...' i.e. other way around.

I say it mentally either way it comes in my mind first, especially, while walking...

But What's the proper traditional way?

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Satay.
It is God's name with devotion and Love that matters.
The Individual whom you have considered as the Guru is the fit person to answer your query.

shian
26 April 2007, 01:38 AM
Namo Narayana!
Jay Ram Jay Ram Jay Jay Ram!

today is Ram Navami.

Can everyone tell me, what are you doing today for celebrate Ram Navami?
what a specias sadhana for you today?

thank you..^_^..

Arvind Sivaraman
26 April 2007, 01:53 AM
Namo Narayana!
Jay Ram Jay Ram Jay Jay Ram!

today is Ram Navami.

Can everyone tell me, what are you doing today for celebrate Ram Navami?
what a specias sadhana for you today?

thank you..^_^..

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste.
Sage Valimki's Ramayanam is read and completed on Ramanavami Day.
There are 24,000 slokas(Verses) and there is a traditional procedure of completing certain number of slokas(verses)every day.Thus the 24,000 slokas(verses)is completed within the time frame of nine days.(Navami).
You may ask a scholar or a pandit of Sage Valmiki Ramayan to narrate you the parayan (Reading) procedure if you are not well versed.
The parayan(reading) is also accompanied with naivedyam(offerings to God Ram.)