View Full Version : Mandelbrot, Maths and God.

Mana

19 July 2011, 03:08 AM

Namasté All

To any that are unaware of this Mathematical model. Its simplicity and elegance are truly Divine.

Fractal geometry. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ma6cV6fw24&NR=1)

It is possible to see this form due to the raw processing power of modern computers.

Interestingly Benoit Mandelbrot showed many signs of an awakening whilst having his revaluation as to the nature of this wisdom.

I wonder is it possible to see anything similar within our universe?

Modern cosmology is turning to Fractal mathematics.

The field of Genetics is turning to Fractal mathematics.

Glimpsed fleetingly as can only be done from within. The self similar nature apparent only to those who open their hearts and mind to it.

Many scientists find God in this form.

Peace

Mana

Mana

19 July 2011, 03:33 AM

This one is great too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWOngYTC-2E&NR=1)

To see this in nature any one who has had the pleasure of examining large powder snow flakes can easily meditate on the truth that no two are the same, yet they are all self similar. Crystal growth is very much of this nature/Dharma depending entirely on surrounding conditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_growth).

Graphite or Diamond.

Onkara

19 July 2011, 04:50 AM

namastñe Mana

You offer some new angles for me :) How to reconcile mathematics and the divine?

For me mathematics are cold where the divine is full of feeling. This isn't a criticism, after all, all is Brahman, but I wonder how you see God and Maths?

Jainarayan

19 July 2011, 09:42 AM

I wonder how you see God and Maths?

Maybe mathematics is the tool God uses to lay down the laws the universe is governed by. I don't believe God creates haphazardly; there is order to the universe.

wundermonk

19 July 2011, 01:35 PM

Maybe mathematics is the tool God uses to lay down the laws the universe is governed by. I don't believe God creates haphazardly; there is order to the universe.

If I remember right, there is a multi-universe theory in physics which posits the simultaneous existence of parallel universes similar to ours. The thinking goes that EVERY cosmological model which can be described consistently and without mathematical contradictions exists. Ours in one such universe. Since there is a priori no reason to expect our universe to be special or privileged in any fashion, there is no reason to deny the simultaneous existence of mathematically consistent parallel universes. Possibly in such universes, the physical constants (Avagadro's number, force of gravitation, electron charge, etc.) would be different from ours.

Jainarayan

19 July 2011, 01:45 PM

Yes, Dr. Neil Turok posits the multiverse theory. Dr. Turok posits that each universe is a 3 dimensional 'brane (membrane) separated by a 4th dimension we have no access to. Dr. Michio Kaku holds virtually the same belief.

wundermonk

19 July 2011, 01:52 PM

Mathematicians are an eccentric (in a nice way) lot. Some tidbits that may be of interest.

Srinivasa Ramanujam (the precocious Indian math genius) said that his Ishta Daivatam used to come in his dreams to provide him with proofs of various results in number theory.

"Proofs from the book" is an ode to mathematician Paul Erdos. It contains supposedly the most elegant proofs of various mathematical problems. They are referred to as most elegant because it is believed that if God Him/Her/Itself were to prove the same result, He/She/It would proceed in the exact same fashion.

G.H. Hardy, a number theorist, used to send a post card to his friend every time he boarded a ship mentioning that he had solved the Riemman Hypothesis. His thinking was that, if God existed, He/She/It wouldnt allow the ship to sink because otherwise future generations of mathematicians would wrongly believe he had solved what is considered to be one of greatest unsolved mathematical problems.

Some mathematicians believe that the smiles of all newborns are so beautiful because God has explained to them the proof of the Riemman Hypothesis. The newborns are smiling because the proof is so stunningly beautiful. The newborns supposedly forget this proof as they grow up. :(

Kurt Godel, an Austrian logician, had apparently found a flaw in the US Constitution that would have allowed the US to be taken over by a dictator under certain circumstances. He escaped Europe during WW2 and emigrated to the US. He was going to take his citizenship test and Einstein and Morgenstern (if I remember right) had to accompany him and distract his mind so that he wouldnt mention this to the immigration officer. Doing so would have sent him back to Europe.

Jainarayan

19 July 2011, 02:06 PM

Mathematics of any kind make me :banghead: I even got a D in 5th grade arithmetic. :Roll:

sunyata07

19 July 2011, 02:30 PM

Namaste,

I find mathematics fascinating, too, even though I struggle with the basics sometimes! I think maths has a precision and power about it that makes me look on it with a kind of awe (which is why I could never admit to hating it). For me, mathematics is just one kind of manifestation of God's omniscience.

Nah, math's isn't cold, just like science isn't cold. But one could argue that rep belongs to mathematicians and scientists. ;)

Om namah Shivaya

smaranam

19 July 2011, 02:43 PM

Namaste

MAthematicians and Scientists are very dear to BhagavAn or at least they are favored by good karma of the past. How else would their boat float ? Think of all the contributions they have made to mankind, world.

All of them cannot be called 'cold'. I look at it like this:

The Lord's "3 year old" genius is engrossed with lego pieces on the floor. The Lord watches with immense affection and admiration, charmed, smiling at His dear child figuring out His creation. He gently gives the pointers now and then, here and there. The 3 yr old is unaware that as he turned his back the Supreme Lord put more pieces within his future sight so as to give him a better clue to the puzzle.

Some children know dad/mom is watching and acknowledge, some scientists know paramAtmA is guiding, some don't.

Fractals, multiverses, macrocosm-microcosm principle, universe within universe within universe, same principle at atomic, cellular, organismic, universal and multiversal level,

everything on auto-pilot so He can dance with the gopis on Sharad Purnima (Poonam)... err.. eternally

Shrimad BhAgvat tells us the millions of universes come out of the pores on MahAvishNu's form (KAraNodakshayi VishNu). The physicists should read the BhAgvatam if they haven't already... and acknowledge Vedic wisdom.

Srinivasa Ramanujam (the precocious Indian math genius) said that his Ishta Daivatam used to come in his dreams to provide him with proofs of various results in number theory.

HARIBOL ! What about the scientist who discovered the benzene ring ? Did he know paramAtmA gave him the dream about the coiled snake which made him discover the benzene ring structure ?

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya, om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

Mana

19 July 2011, 03:12 PM

namastñe Mana

You offer some new angles for me :) How to reconcile mathematics and the divine?

For me mathematics are cold where the divine is full of feeling. This isn't a criticism, after all, all is Brahman, but I wonder how you see God and Maths?

I am so glad that you find this interesting.

I see God in maths exactly as you can see God in any other language except that we can also call the aid of a computer for in maths for the time dimension.

Maths is a fascinating language for expressing complexed ideas. Much of which is expressible as a graphic as well as script. The writing on the page to a good mathematician will transmit an idea of a precise shape and form notion of idea, often colour is used to express an extra dimension or element before computing using scrip alone. It express the same thing as a spoken language but it is much closer to the root shape of the "word or phrase".

On the video of the Mandelbrot set it is explained that.

"Deep within you can find structure which resembles the entire set."

The equation for creating this is as simple as x²+c=x which you repeat infinity each time with a new value for x created by the previous one. Now I believe that the value of c must be between 1 an 2 and the result for each thread will either repeat for ever at a speed shown by the colour or tend to wards 0 and be black.

So to try at simplify this we have two states 0 and lets say 1 for tending towards infinity and 2 is the rate of change or speed. now 0 is infinity so lets not use that as a state so we have 3 states and an infinity. Now that to my mind is Prakti (guna) and Brahman is 0 with our selves observing the whole show as Purusha.

Now my explanation of this equation f(x)=x²+c Is a lot heaver in spoken language than in maths so I have also needed to use Sanskrit words to help my English. In my mind just seeing the set or the symbol of that set inspires the same image in my mind.

The words to my mind with no disrespect intended to any attached to words are easily replaced by the symbols with much greater efficiency.

The Sierpinski Triangle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsMvoui5WlQ&feature=related) is superb as a Yogic example for reasons we can only know by seeing that. but it does not flow and swirl as the Mandelbrot or Julia set does.

To me it looks like shakti.

You must see it with your own eyes.

Aum shri ganeshaya namah.

Mana

Mana

19 July 2011, 03:46 PM

The thing is with maths is that it is not about calculation it is about vision. Same goes for science. For some reson we teach only the calculation which well tends to leave one cold.

The problem is that few good mathematicians or scientists teach.

Lets just say that a bad teacher inspires no warmth.

This rendering of the Mandelbrot set (http://vimeo.com/6035941) is truly awe inspiring. I swear that I can see vritti, lightning and chakra in this one, I do however have a somewhat active imagination ;)

Pranam

Mana

Mana

19 July 2011, 04:17 PM

Maybe mathematics is the tool God uses to lay down the laws the universe is governed by. I don't believe God creates haphazardly; there is order to the universe.

God doesn't care for maths he's dancing with the gopis (Hehe thanks smaranam) maths is something we have created to see God.

It is within our nature as Humans to seek patterns and forms, our survival has and still does depended upon it.

Does that kill?

YES!

Then lets have an inbuilt memory passed on to every generation (See Neuro epigenetics) so that we know to avoid it in the future. This pattern recognition from memory's deep within the mind is not done from the word form "snake" or "spider" but with a form of pattern recognition. Our brain does the maths without our ever even knowing. We just have a fear of snakes.

Some curious minds make it there life's work to bring these "algorithms" to the surface of Citta and then to paper in word or symbolic form.

They allow us to both understand better and predict the nature of nature.

Aum shri ganeshaya namah.

Mana

Mana

20 July 2011, 01:39 AM

As food for thought.

If from f(x)=x²+c We get the Mandelbrot set.

What do we get from E=mc²

Now c in this famous equation is a constant the speed of light.

We all know from Einstein's relativity that time its self changes rate, rather than the speed of light changing. ;)

For the sake of this mind experiment we shall present the axiom that it is the speed of light that changes and not the rate of flow of time.

Linear time is easier to grasp.

Then

f(m)=mc² this would give us the fluxiaton of Energy within linear time.

Otherwise said energy's vibration.

This will give us a fractal geometry also.

Just daydreaming here, please excuse my rambling.

Aum shri ganeshaya namah.

Mana

Obelisk

20 July 2011, 01:46 AM

I find maths fascinating too, but all those complicated formulae in algebra, calculus and trigonometry give me a headache! :o Doesn't help that we didn't exactly have great math teachers back in school, hehe. I came across fractals when reading Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park, but it was a pretty simple description of them in there. Interesting to know more about them here. :)

smaranam

20 July 2011, 09:03 AM

God doesn't care for maths he's dancing with the gopis (Hehe thanks smaranam) maths is something we have created to see God.

:) I see what you are saying , in terms of the involvement of the mind, and the mathematical language used. However, i would say math is built into or embedded deep into His nature, svabhAv and prakruti - so that prakruti works on mathematical laws. I know this is what you are saying too.

He puts it all on auto-pilot in the sense delegates, so He can dance with the Gopis - not for 'Himself', but to give 'them' 'His' association. OK, in a more general sense - all devotees. :)

praNAm

Jai Shri KrushNa

Mana

20 July 2011, 10:46 AM

Yes, embedded in Prana just as our hearts are embedded within us, they must change dynamically over time.

Not Laws so much but rather conditions, just as in mathematical language there are many predefined conditions and assumptions. One must know the "Limits" of the parameters before concluding anything at all.

We become very easily distracted by the notion of cold clockwork where everything is preordained this is not the way of modern physics or maths.

Limits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_%28mathematics%29) is a subject within maths which is its self quite fascinating. Dealing with Infinity. Although I am quite sure that it can be found within the philosophy of the Vedas which has also delivered us that most magical of numbers "0".

I am glad that you find this interesting in this context.

There is some thing for everyone in this beautiful universe that will bring the love of God and with it true devotion to that love.

All threads lead there in the end.

Sahasranama

20 July 2011, 11:15 AM

Srinivasa Ramanujam (the precocious Indian math genius) said that his Ishta Daivatam used to come in his dreams to provide him with proofs of various results in number theory.

I do think that this is possible, yes. I should ask my Ishta Daivatam also for some help with my homework.

Mana

20 July 2011, 11:44 AM

Mathematicians are an eccentric (in a nice way) lot. Some tidbits that may be of interest.

That they are ;)

There are some positively stunning beings on our planet with innate abilities that confound the primitive mind.

Daniel Tammet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet) is a fine example with his extraordinary seeing ability.

Here is a documentary about him. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1Ss)

He says he "sees" numbers as shapes, that Pi which he can site to 25000 decimal places is "a beautiful landscape".

Mana

05 October 2011, 11:08 AM

Namasté All

Here is a short article demonstration the relevance of Fractals in modern science.

Enjoy (http://blogs.nature.com/soapbox_science/2011/10/05/fractals-how-nature-just-keeps-on-giving?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG)

praNAma

mana

jasdir

06 October 2011, 05:19 AM

http://zindaram.com/sitebuilder/images/RuhaniMarg_edit-829x537.jpg

_/\_Jasdir.

Mana

07 October 2011, 03:17 AM

Namasté Jasdir,

Thank you for posting; this is a fascinating image from a philosophy of which I know nothing, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to how Sant-Mat might have described fractals?

Other than God being everywhere of course :)

This looks as though it could be a wonderful topic for a new thread?

praNAma

mana

Mana

11 October 2011, 09:00 AM

Namasté All

Fractals; one cant help but admire their persistence! (http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111010/full/478165a.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG)

praNAma

mana

Necromancer

21 January 2013, 05:46 AM

Namaste.

I noticed somebody looking at this and of course, you all know this is where I begin and end.

I was never any good at basic arithmetic. I was terrible at trigonometry and algebra in general, but get me up into higher mathematical problems and theory, then as a linguist, I can begin to see patterns and things emerge, like it has a language of its own.

Before I came back to Hinduism (I guess you could say in the events that led up to it) I found myself fully studying the Mayan calendar again (I briefly did many years ago)...

Within a week, I had the biggest 'cosmic conspiracy theory' happening with:

a. The length of time it takes for a full 'Procession Of The Equinox'.

b. The distance in Light Years from the Earth to 'Galactic Central'.

c. One Day on Saturn brought to Base Power.

d. The length of the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid of Cheops divided by its width..

You get the 'magic number' of 25,920 which ever way you want to look at this.

Then, you not only apply fractal geometry and the Mandelbrot set to it, but you invite Mandelbrot's friends; Leonardo Fibonacci, Max Tegmark, Erwin Schrodinger and Max Planck along for a party and then get some very weird discussions...

The Fibonacci Sequence is like the 'DNA of the Universe'....and just how totally amazing the DNA molecule is at that!!!

Pure Mathematics has led me to Pure Love of Lord Shiva many times over. I guess you could call it: "Dividing By Zero".

Aum Namah Shivaya

dhyandev

21 January 2013, 08:34 AM

http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/search?q=fractals

Necromancer

22 January 2013, 01:18 AM

http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/search?q=fractals

Namaste.

Totally amazing article and thank you (gives reps).

I like this part:

A 2 strand 96% junk DNA person like you and me can never understand what this means. Such knee jerk response for the number 1729 by Ramanujan is possible only by beautiful fractal minds who can see numbers as pictures.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Necromancer

25 January 2013, 08:29 AM

http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/search?q=fractals

Namaste. I tried to reply to your PM, but your inbox is full.

Basically, what I know about 12 stranded DNA, Fractals, Multiverse Theory and Lord Shiva's Tandavam Dance can be traced back to one man (although he doesnt even mention half that stuff...his work does though):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Pierre_Luminet

Now, read that and see if you can fill in the missing spaces here.

Thank you for the PM btw.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Mana

26 January 2013, 09:10 AM

हरिः ओम्

Namaste,

I am thrilled that you share my passion for these divine forms.

A powerful Yantra indeed!

There is no Junk DNA to my mind, I like to believe that it is all exactly where it is supposed to be, some water makes

the waves and others make the troughs; some remain still, deep at the bottom; it is all one in the same sea.

Lisa Randall likens DNA to another dimension in which we are all connected, I have thought the same in my meditation

also.

Thanks for the pointer towards Srinivasan Ramanujan, dhyandev I had read of him before,but had not made the

connection to fractals in his mathematics, how wonderful!

The Number theory problem of solving primes, has recently been solved, and that it involves a fractal form underlying

the placement of the primes; this of course is the very back bone of the base 10 number system, its heart. I am not sure

they they have found anybody that can read the proof yet though.

Thank you for your kind thoughts on this beautiful subject. It is fascinating isn't it?

praṇāma

mana

ॐ नमः शिवाय

dhyandev

01 February 2013, 07:33 AM

_/\_ mana

Thank you for your kind thoughts on this beautiful subject. It is fascinating isn't it?

Fasicinating sure it is.well u have lots of time at hand just browse through this guys blog.He has written on many topics from DNA to crop circles (http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2010/11/crop-circles-mystery-solved-capt-ajit.html) to pearl harbour to vimana to shiv lingas are meteorites etc etc.I am giving u a link but the real bliss lies in browsing through his blog & the good thing is he replies promptly.Here (http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2011/08/nasa-dna-building-blocks-in-meteorite.html)

_/\_ Necromancer

now i've deleted a few messages.

Now, read that and see if you can fill in the missing spaces here

I think my dna is 96% junk (i been a student of molecular biology myself) thus i could not fill the missing spaces:D . please oblige would you?.

here is something about his blog

Ajitvadakayil.blogspot.nl is ranked #1,391 in the world,

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