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UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 03:37 PM
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wundermonk
19 July 2011, 03:56 PM
Have a simple question for you - can someone who does not believe in the father, son and the holy ghost go to heaven?

Muslims AND Christians tried to make Mahatma Gandhi one of their own in S. Africa. Yet, he remained a steadfast Hindu until his death. Is your loving (/end{sarcasm}) Christian God roasting him now in eternal hellfire for not accepting Jesus as the saviour?

Sorry to state this - but Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same bigoted coin.

Why dont you convert to Islam? Apparently their prophet was the latest one on earth abrogating your son of God...What say?

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:01 PM
wundermonk,

Like I said in my post, I respect everyone's different views of God. Not everyone needs to view God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I believe everyone will eventually go to Heaven, as God is eternal love.

No, I most certainly do NOT believe that Mahatma Gandhi is in eternal hell.
On the contrary, I have great respect for him. He influences me a lot. I have no intention of making him "my own".

I don't believe in eternal hell, by the way. And there are other Christians who don't. It is most commonly known as Christian Universalism.

NayaSurya
19 July 2011, 04:02 PM
Adam, I am sorry you have seen things you perhaps shouldn't...or that the box of your birth has become affected due to your exposure with SD on the forum.

But, just as SD says that we all are upon the path...it also is clear that some are at the begining and some are nearing the end. Some are so steeped in Truth that the ones who take nourishment have simply no other condition to be but to become full.

You have a school of kindergarten to seniors...and do the ones come to the seniors and ask why they think kindergarteners are not smart?

Seniors know much much more than these ones new upon the path to learning...and yes seniors are very aware of this condition of being new and are now not...and so yes they make a judgement upon themself and say...yes...we know more now than we did.

So SD is advanced, very very advanced and abrahamic religions are new upon the way...and it is not an insult to say they are new...and it should not be taken as an insult to say that.

Onto the other issue you bring up...why is christianity seen as virus?

Well....just as a confused man will begin to lash out and harm ones around him...or a drowning man...in desperation will grab on to his very own child and pull him under too...this is how christians convert.

Confused beings are very fearful and unsettled, the only way to ease this unsettled feeling is to make others believe as they do. There is power in numbers and christians use this number to feel that their religion is true.

Look at the history of christian beings and their attempts to hide and destroy the Truth? Can you blame the precious Beings here for being weary?

Adam, jesus, if he even exist was not a humble being by his own admission he say "i am the only way." this is not the way a humble being speaks....

and that story is wrong....

no man upon this earth had to die for my sins, i am sinless...born from Beloved...and will return to Beloved...Om namah Shivaya<3

I will give you the warning many others get when they begin to ask these questions.

You are welcome here...Beloved.

But, by staying in this forum so full of the Truth, it may affect your views on things...and may cause you to become unsettled.


You are welcome Beloved, in whatever sundry incarnation...I am at your Feet. Do not be sad<3

wundermonk
19 July 2011, 04:04 PM
I don't believe in eternal hell, by the way.

Good for you. So, what is your belief about an afterlife? And how does God go about evaluating souls? How have you arrived at these views?

wundermonk
19 July 2011, 04:12 PM
Is your signature accurate? Per here (http://www.bible-knowledge.com/10-commandments/), the first commandment is "You shall have no other Gods before me". Explain what you think this means.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:13 PM
wundermonk,

My idea (my own idea) of the afterlife is that everyone will eventually be with God in eternal peace, no matter who you are or what you believe -- absolutely everyone. I think God most certainly values righteousness in one's character, but I also think God is very kind toward those who aren't righteous. I think what is between God and the righteous is one thing, and between God and the unrighteous is another, but He ultimately loves everyone unconditionally.

I am not too sure about what I think about God's evaluation. I just trust that His knowledge and judgement will be for the best of the individual.

I came to these views simply by what is in my own mind and heart. I heard about this belief, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. :)

sunyata07
19 July 2011, 04:15 PM
Namaste Adam,

Nayasurya has posted much of what I wanted to say. I'm sorry you have to be on a board that isn't as universal as you'd like. There are ugly things said about Christianity on this board, mostly due to bad personal experiences with insanely narrow-minded and bigoted Christians. As Nayasurya says, it's made a lot of the Hindus here on this board angry, weary, tired.

You're a rare kind of Christian in that you are decent, polite and respecting of other people's faiths. We don't really see alot of that these days, you have to understand. Christian universalism as you understand it probably exists, but I have seen other examples where it is actually prosetylisation in sheep's clothing. What begins as "Your God and my God are the same" eventually insidiously mutates into: "Yes, but really it is my God you are worshipping. We call Him Jehovah." You'll have to try to understand that a lot of people are going to remain highly skeptical about it.

I understand and recognise as well that you truly love God, and so really we are not that different at all. You are following your dharma as it was meant for you in this birth, and I wish you full-heartedly that you achieve the goals you seek, my friend. In this, there is nothing wrong with you're being Christian.

You will have a lot of angry responses, some justified, some not. Please be prepared for them. Perhaps you will be shaken to the core, perhaps it will galvanise your faith. I hope that whatever happens, your love for God at its most essential and purest form will weather it out and sustain you.

Om namah Shivaya

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:15 PM
Is your signature accurate? Per here (http://www.bible-knowledge.com/10-commandments/), the first commandment is "You shall have no other Gods before me". Explain what you think this means.

That's a good question. To me, what my signature says is the Heart of the Law: to love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself. This is my favorite teaching of Jesus. :)

wundermonk
19 July 2011, 04:18 PM
My idea (my own idea) of the afterlife is that everyone will eventually be with God in eternal peace, no matter who you are or what you believe -- absolutely everyone.

Hmm...So, is it fair to say you believe in reincarnation? If not, what exactly do you mean by "eventually"?

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:24 PM
Hmm...So, is it fair to say you believe in reincarnation? If not, what exactly do you mean by "eventually"?

I have actually considered reincarnation. But when I say "eventually", I am referring to more of a spiritual cleansing in the afterlife. For example, perhaps the "real hell" is facing your own sins, but ultimately only to make yourself better. I'm not sure how to explain it at this point; I just have the seed of belief. :)

I will have to reflect more on this; good question. :)

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:27 PM
Namaste Adam,

Nayasurya has posted much of what I wanted to say. I'm sorry you have to be on a board that isn't as universal as you'd like. There are ugly things said about Christianity on this board, mostly due to bad personal experiences with insanely narrow-minded and bigoted Christians. As Nayasurya says, it's made a lot of the Hindus here on this board angry, weary, tired.

You're a rare kind of Christian in that you are decent, polite and respecting of other people's faiths. We don't really see alot of that these days, you have to understand. Christian universalism as you understand it probably exists, but I have seen other examples where it is actually prosetylisation in sheep's clothing. What begins as "Your God and my God are the same" eventually insidiously mutates into: "Yes, but really it is my God you are worshipping. We call Him Jehovah." You'll have to try to understand that a lot of people are going to remain highly skeptical about it.

I understand and recognise as well that you truly love God, and so really we are not that different at all. You are following your dharma as it was meant for you in this birth, and I wish you full-heartedly that you achieve the goals you seek, my friend. In this, there is nothing wrong with you're being Christian.

You will have a lot of angry responses, some justified, some not. Please be prepared for them. Perhaps you will be shaken to the core, perhaps it will galvanise your faith. I hope that whatever happens, your love for God at its most essential and purest form will weather it out and sustain you.

Om namah Shivaya

Thank you so much for your encouragement and honesty, sunyata. :)
Thank you for being a good friend.

c.smith
19 July 2011, 04:39 PM
IMHO this may be an unpopular view and I hope that I'm not banned for expressing it, but I've always wondered why we have a place for christianity (and some others as well) on a forum for Hindu Dharma. Not the people who have these beliefs mind you, just a forum within a forum.

I was raised christian and can respect your views but it does seem that they are not mainstream. Perhaps a plus if there is one. Again, forgive me for my rashness, but I'm trying to speak my honest feelings.

I am now a PROUD HINDU and have found my home within this forum. May Lord Shiva continue to bless me and ALL of the forum members.

Om Namah Sivaya!

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 04:40 PM
There is something fundamentally wrong with being a Christian, but not all people who claim to be Christians are real Christians and that is a good thing.

Ganeshprasad
19 July 2011, 04:42 PM
Pranam

Absolutely nothing wrong with being in any faith, i certainly do not fear Christianity. but you have to remove your blinkers and read history, in the name off the your faith, cultures have been wiped out, not by intellectually convincing some one, that would not be so bad but by putting fear for simply not believing. they came to India for that purpose to convert us heathens, what we worship is wrong, destroyed our books or interpolated the shastra. you are still there to convert us by inducement.
Now you tell what is wrong with my belief? why should we not be weary of this faith?

Jai Shree Krishna

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:43 PM
There is something fundamentally wrong with being a Christian

May I please ask, what is fundamentally wrong with being a Christian? What is it about being a Christian (in itself) that is bad?

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:50 PM
Pranam

Absolutely nothing wrong with being in any faith, i certainly do not fear Christianity. but you have to remove your blinkers and read history, in the name off the your faith, cultures have been wiped out, not by intellectually convincing some one, that would not be so bad but by putting fear for simply not believing. they came to India for that purpose to convert us heathens, what we worship is wrong, destroyed our books or interpolated the shastra. you are still there to convert us by inducement.
Now you tell what is wrong with my belief? why should we not be weary of this faith?

Jai Shree Krishna

I understand what has happened in the name of my faith. I feel very ashamed for it, but I feel that I just need to continue trying to make the best of my faith by living according to how the one known as Jesus lived.

There is nothing wrong with your belief. I love and admire Sanatana Dharma. I enjoy learning about it.

When you say "you", as in "you are still there to convert us by inducement", isn't that generalizing?

Conversion is not my goal nor is it a value of mine. Not everyone has to share my belief in order to return to God. For myself, I just find a lot of value in following Jesus' teachings. I do not force them on anyone. In fact, I am very opposed to that.

c.smith
19 July 2011, 04:53 PM
What exactly is your definition of a christian then without generalizing that is?

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:53 PM
IMHO this may be an unpopular view and I hope that I'm not banned for expressing it, but I've always wondered why we have a place for christianity (and some others as well) on a forum for Hindu Dharma. Not the people who have these beliefs mind you, just a forum within a forum.

I was raised christian and can respect your views but it does seem that they are not mainstream. Perhaps a plus if there is one. Again, forgive me for my rashness, but I'm trying to speak my honest feelings.

I am now a PROUD HINDU and have found my home within this forum. May Lord Shiva continue to bless me and ALL of the forum members.

Om Namah Sivaya!

Namaste c.smith,

I totally understand, no offense at all. I am very happy for you that you are proud being Hindu. :)

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 04:57 PM
What exactly is your definition of a christian then without generalizing that is?

To me, being a Christian means to follow Jesus Christ in character. To be kind, loving, humble, and devoted to others, as I strongly perceive Jesus was.
To me, if you love and are devoted to the Divine, and if you love others as yourself, you are fulfilling what it means to be a Christian, because Jesus greatly emphasised and practiced the Greatest Commandment.

Ganeshprasad
19 July 2011, 04:58 PM
Pranam

When i said you i did not mean you personally but Christianity per say, i hope that is clear. we can only live in harmony when there is mutual respect. Christianity or Islam has no respect for Hindu's that is the fact.

Jai Shree Krishna

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:04 PM
Pranam

When i said you i did not mean you personally but Christianity per say, i hope that is clear...Christianity or Islam has no respect for Hindu's that is the fact.

Thank you for your clarification. :)
Personally, even as a Christian, I have utmost respect for Hinduism. But I can see your point, and I feel very ashamed about that.

TheOne
19 July 2011, 05:06 PM
The Abrahamic god you worship not only is a blood lusted psychopath but he fortunately does not exist. There is no empirical evidence that such a deity exists. The burden of proof is on you to prove not only your God exists but that he is worthy of worship and adoration.

AmIHindu
19 July 2011, 05:08 PM
Namaste,

Yes, Hinduism - Sanatan Dharma is so nice that it values other religions from heart. But Christianity is not, they have conspiracy to convert all others to Christians. They stab in back. Their manners are so courteous but behind that manners, there is a black heart. Christianity tries to buy everything with money.

West always propagate Hinduism is full with Caste System, which is alllllll to gather wrong. At the same time they never said that there is a reservation system in India to protect lower caste people. In India, 25th of Dec. is national holiday but I do not see any Hindu holiday in West.

They give money for conversions. They give Bible in the hand of hungry people instead of food. They like to do Charity to satisfy their ego but they never give Rights. On doing Charity you will see their praise songs on their media.

They use media to show negatives of Hinduism. They never explain reason behind the negatives.

If Hindu organizations protest against conversion they(Hindus organizations) are labelled as extremist. Please check conversions of Kerala - Arunachal Pradesh, Dist. Panchamahal in Gujarat.

Difference between Islam and Christianity - Christians kills with pen (which is legal as defined by them) whereas Islam kills with sword.

Eastern Mind
19 July 2011, 05:08 PM
Vannakkam Adam:

I have little to say than what Nayasurya, Sunyata, and others have already expressed. But I can add a little, from my POV.

First, I would simply ask you to go re-read Nayasurya's post and give it some really serious focus.

Hinduism is vast, vast vast. We also have universalism within us, but it's a minority. So you will get a ton of different viewpoints from many Hindus. My question to you is why you haven't dropped Christianity as so many others before you. From some of the stuff you've said, you're actually apostate right now to many Christian sects, with probably the only exception being UU. For that, I am glad, as it shows progress outside the box.

Aum Namasivaya

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 05:10 PM
May I please ask, what is fundamentally wrong with being a Christian? What is it about being a Christian (in itself) that is bad?It is very simple, why is there something wrong with fundamental Chrsitianity or fundamental Islam? Only because there is someting fundamentally wrong with those religions. Moderate Christians and Muslims would like us to believe that fundamentalism is wrong no matter what, but this is only said to avoid confronting what is fundamentally wrong with abrahamic monotheism. There are enough quotes in the Bible and the Koran to show that these are not religions of peace. Moderate Christians have a tendancy to idealise the words of Jesus like they are exempt from cruelty, but a study of the Christian scriptures shows otherwise.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:13 PM
The Abrahamic god you worship not only is a blood lusted psychopath..

My own idea about God does not include blood or violence. I believe God is pure love.

If you are referring to what the Bible says about God, please know that I do not believe every word of the Bible, nor do I feel that I am called to. To me, being a Christian does not necessarily mean you have to believe in everything in the Bible.

I have my own ideas about God, and I do not give Him or Her labels such as "Abrahamic", "Christian", "Hindu", etc.
I believe God is above religion :)

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 05:20 PM
My own idea about God does not include blood or violence. I believe God is pure love.
Not everyone needs to view God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I believe everyone will eventually go to Heaven, as God is eternal love.
I don't believe in eternal hell, by the way.
He ultimately loves everyone unconditionally.You have been very clear here that you are not a Christian, it doesn't make any sense for you to identify with Christianity or to defend the cruelty in the abrahamic scriptures and the historic consequences of them.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:26 PM
It is very simple, why is there something wrong with fundamental Chrsitianity or fundamental Islam? Only because there is someting fundamentally wrong with those religions. Moderate Christians and Muslims would like us to believe that fundamentalism is wrong no matter what, but this is only said to avoid confronting what is fundamentally wrong with abrahamic monotheism. There are enough quotes in the Bible and the Koran to show that these are not religions of peace. Moderate Christians have a tendancy to idealise the words of Jesus like they are exempt from cruelty, but a study of the Christian scriptures shows otherwise.

I understand. And I think about this often. Even I am aware of the violence in my religion, and I feel ashamed about it.
But I realized that I have the power to make the best of any situation I am placed in, and that you can find God anywhere. I believe there is good even in Christianity, and I think the good nature of things is where we find God.
If it is true that everything happens according to God's plan, then my upbringing in Christianity must have a purpose. And I don't think that purpose involves any ill will at all.

If Christianity isn't really one of the many paths to God, then I would suppose I am lost.
Maybe I already am lost. But one thing is for sure: I love God, whom I believe is only good-natured, and I strive to sincerely do good for others. This is what I've realized for myself.

c.smith
19 July 2011, 05:32 PM
Yes, what use is the bible if you pick and choose and may like most christians make their own interpretations of what is written anyway? Just how do you define jesus or god for that matter?

sanjaya
19 July 2011, 05:34 PM
Hello ILoveGod. You raise some important issues that are worthy of discussion. I think others have done a great job here, but allow me to throw in my $0.02.




This is not a complaint, but just something I felt I would like to ask, provided what I have seen around this forum. I noticed that, overall, Christianity is seen as something threatening here at Hindu Dharma Forums, like it's a disease or something. And, honestly, I do understand that. A lot has happened around Christianity, and, from the very bottom of my heart, I am so sorry and I strongly wish things would have been different.

It's true that Christianity is seen in a generally negative light on this forum. Keep in mind that many of us have had mostly negative experiences with Christianity. Those Hindus who were born in India regularly see Western missionaries coming into their country, converting Hindus to an effectively European religion, and more or less destroying Indian culture. Those of us Indians born in America grew up being regularly ridiculed for our vegetarianism and enticed to convert to the dominant Christian religion both directly and via social pressures. And then there are the converts to Hinduism, who probably converted at least in part due to some dissatisfaction with their Christian faith. So you're likely to not find too much love for Christianity here.

Now let me say that I don't think you owe us any apology for the actions of other Christians. I'm aware that Christians believe one must have faith in Christianity to be called a Christian. But to most Hindus, your default religion is defined simply by your birth. So I don't think you have anything to apologize for simply by being Christian.


But it makes me feel very uncomfortable -- the thought that someone would view me as dangerous or that I have an "agenda" just because I am Christian, when I am just trying to understand a faith I love and admire, and trying to find ways to apply it to my life (just as it is, no changing it). On the contrary, I have no wish to force my beliefs on anyone. Everyone is different, so it is totally okay to view things differently. Even I view things a lot differently from others who share my faith.

I'm aware that there are many denominations in Christianity, some of which bear remarkable differences. I know that virtually all evangelicals do indeed have an agenda, while liberal Christians do not. Then again, the evangelicals are obeying the Bible more carefully than the liberal Christians. In effect, liberal Christians are better people because they are worse Christians. See the problem I'm having with Christianity? Allow me to explain below.


In fact, a few times recently, I have felt very confused about my faith. But I realized that I could make the best out of my faith just by sincerely being kind to others and being humble as Jesus was, and of course worshipping the God I view as pure love and benevolence, whom I believe is the Father of everyone. I realized you can find God in anything. And Sanatana Dharma is said to teach that there are many paths to God, a teaching that I love and agree with wholeheartedly.

You say that God is the Father of everyone. This is a great belief, but it's not in the Bible. John 1:12 says, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." Elsewhere in this gospel, certain individuals are called children of the devil rather than children of God. So obviously, the Bible says that only people who believe in Jesus are children of God. This is the sort of thing I'm referring to. Liberal Christians like to say that we are all children of God and that conversion to Christianity isn't necessary to escape condemnation to hell. But this isn't what the Bible says. In Hinduism, no specific profession of faith is required in order to be a Hindu; indeed, there are some atheist sects of Hinduism. But in Christianity, belief is required. It might be helpful to ask yourself: how much of the Bible can you reject and still be a Christian? Because a good deal of the Christian New Testament rests on the assumption that one has to believe in Jesus to escape hell.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:41 PM
Yes, what use is the bible if you pick and choose and may like most christians make their own interpretations of what is written anyway? Just how do you define jesus or god for that matter?

For myself, I use only what I feel God impresses upon my heart. :)

Eastern Mind
19 July 2011, 05:41 PM
IMHO this may be an unpopular view and I hope that I'm not banned for expressing it, but I've always wondered why we have a place for christianity (and some others as well) on a forum for Hindu Dharma. Not the people who have these beliefs mind you, just a forum within a forum.

I was raised christian and can respect your views but it does seem that they are not mainstream. Perhaps a plus if there is one. Again, forgive me for my rashness, but I'm trying to speak my honest feelings.

I am now a PROUD HINDU and have found my home within this forum. May Lord Shiva continue to bless me and ALL of the forum members.

Om Namah Sivaya!

Vannakkam: In my view, its not there to discuss Christianity. Its there to discuss Christianity's impact on us, and share ideas of how to reduce that impact. Hindus need to discuss underhanded conversion tactics, for example. So I think it has been a very productive area of the forum, although some days it does tend to repeat itself.

Aum Namasivaya

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:42 PM
Hello ILoveGod. You raise some important issues that are worthy of discussion. I think others have done a great job here, but allow me to throw in my $0.02.





It's true that Christianity is seen in a generally negative light on this forum. Keep in mind that many of us have had mostly negative experiences with Christianity. Those Hindus who were born in India regularly see Western missionaries coming into their country, converting Hindus to an effectively European religion, and more or less destroying Indian culture. Those of us Indians born in America grew up being regularly ridiculed for our vegetarianism and enticed to convert to the dominant Christian religion both directly and via social pressures. And then there are the converts to Hinduism, who probably converted at least in part due to some dissatisfaction with their Christian faith. So you're likely to not find too much love for Christianity here.

Now let me say that I don't think you owe us any apology for the actions of other Christians. I'm aware that Christians believe one must have faith in Christianity to be called a Christian. But to most Hindus, your default religion is defined simply by your birth. So I don't think you have anything to apologize for simply by being Christian.



I'm aware that there are many denominations in Christianity, some of which bear remarkable differences. I know that virtually all evangelicals do indeed have an agenda, while liberal Christians do not. Then again, the evangelicals are obeying the Bible more carefully than the liberal Christians. In effect, liberal Christians are better people because they are worse Christians. See the problem I'm having with Christianity? Allow me to explain below.



You say that God is the Father of everyone. This is a great belief, but it's not in the Bible. John 1:12 says, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." Elsewhere in this gospel, certain individuals are called children of the devil rather than children of God. So obviously, the Bible says that only people who believe in Jesus are children of God. This is the sort of thing I'm referring to. Liberal Christians like to say that we are all children of God and that conversion to Christianity isn't necessary to escape condemnation to hell. But this isn't what the Bible says. In Hinduism, no specific profession of faith is required in order to be a Hindu; indeed, there are some atheist sects of Hinduism. But in Christianity, belief is required. It might be helpful to ask yourself: how much of the Bible can you reject and still be a Christian? Because a good deal of the Christian New Testament rests on the assumption that one has to believe in Jesus to escape hell.

Hello, sanjaya. :) You have made some really good points. I will consider what you say. Thank you very much.

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 05:43 PM
For myself, I use only what I feel God impresses upon my heart. :)


Then ask yourself, are there more things that feel like God impressed them upon your heart when you read the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita?

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:45 PM
Then ask yourself, are there more things that feel like God impressed them upon your heart when you read the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita?

To be honest, a little bit of each.

c.smith
19 July 2011, 05:45 PM
Hari Om EMji!

Thanks for the clarification. If only it was always used for that purpose!

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 05:47 PM
I understand. And I think about this often. Even I am aware of the violence in my religion, and I feel ashamed about it.
But I realized that I have the power to make the best of any situation I am placed in, and that you can find God anywhere. I believe there is good even in Christianity, and I think the good nature of things is where we find God.
If it is true that everything happens according to God's plan, then my upbringing in Christianity must have a purpose. And I don't think that purpose involves any ill will at all.

If Christianity isn't really one of the many paths to God, then I would suppose I am lost.
Maybe I already am lost. But one thing is for sure: I love God, whom I believe is only good-natured, and I strive to sincerely do good for others. This is what I've realized for myself.The purpose of human life is not just to accept every circumstance. You have grown up in a Christian family due to your own prarabda, but you have also come to realise that there are many things wrong with the teachings of that religion. God has given you a brain and free will, you can make use of that to move away from an ideology that is fundamentally flawed.

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 05:50 PM
To be honest, a little bit of each.


How much is a little bit, like a 700 from the Gita and 5 or 6 from the Bible.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:50 PM
Deleted

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:52 PM
How much is a little bit, like a 700 from the Gita and 5 or 6 from the Bible.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I know that there are things from the Gita and the Bible that I think God impresses upon my heart, one of the things from the Bible including and centering around what my signature is.

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 05:55 PM
Ok, I am considering leaving Christianity, but what about how that affects my family? I love them.

And what would the first step be in leaving Christianity?
If your family loves you unconditionally, they would not mind. If they also have the same universalistic attitude as you have right now, they would not mind. They will only mind if they have an inherent hatred for heathens. Don't cling unto a religion to please others, after you have discovered that the basic beliefs of that religion don't suit you anymore.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 05:58 PM
If your family loves you unconditionally, they would not mind. If they also have the same universalistic attitude as you have right now, they would not mind. They will only mind if they have an inherent hatred for heathens. I can go to my parents right now and say that I am going to be a scientologist and they probably wouldn't mind.

Ok, thank you. :)

c.smith
19 July 2011, 05:58 PM
I'm not sure or clear why you would leave christianity given some of your views here.

In terms of your family, some of that question has been question has been answered in other posts under this thread but I'll tell you from personal experience that it's not easy, especially at the beginning because of the views and misconceptions that my family held and probably still holds - ie: we're idol worshipers, believe in millions of gods, etc. They've also gone through the "we'll try to convert you back" or "it's only a phase" and guilt stages to mention a few. Perhaps you would have different experience. I can remember my mother crying, sobbing because I would go to hell in her view.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 06:00 PM
I'm not sure or clear why you would leave christianity given some of your views here.

In terms of your family, some of that question has been question has been answered in other posts under this thread but I'll tell you from personal experience that it's not easy, especially at the beginning because of the views and misconceptions that my family held and probably still holds - ie: we're idol worshipers, believe in millions of gods, etc. They've also gone through the "we'll try to convert you back" or "it's only a phase" and guilt stages to mention a few. Perhaps you would have different experience. I can remember my mother crying, sobbing because I would go to hell in her view.

Thank you. :)
That's true, it wouldn't be easy. But if it is truly God's will for me, I would want to do it.

c.smith
19 July 2011, 06:05 PM
What is a christians definition of god's will? how does yours (or does it) differ?

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 06:08 PM
What is a christians definition of god's will? how does yours (or does it) differ?

I believe God's will is just want He wants (or what He has planned) for you, myself, and everyone else. And I think God's will is also purely good and benevolent like Himself. :)

c.smith
19 July 2011, 06:11 PM
Do you believe in karma and if so, how does it relate to god's will or does it in the first place?

Eastern Mind
19 July 2011, 06:13 PM
Vannakkam Adam: As for leaving Christianity, and hurting your family, there are far worse things like choosing to become a gambling addict, letting alcohol control you, stealing cars, murder ... you get the picture.

When I did it, (I left agnosticism, not Christianity) I used the mantra, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." I know it sounds overly simplified, but I would have never ever felt complete unless I joined SD. It's returning home, or repaying a childhood loan ... something you just HAVE to do, not really explainable, but a reality. Its the will getting going and much much more. Another expression that may help is, "Come hell or high water, I'm gonna.." it takes will, lots of it. I was totally willing to never see my family again, if that's what came to pass. It was that important to me. Of course that's not what happened.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
19 July 2011, 06:14 PM
Do not leave for this discussion...

Leaving for reasons other than uncovering this Truth we have become washed away in would only mean some lone day would come when the fear, deeply imbedded into many a christian heart would come back and again you would become conflicted.

Just read here, if you do want to know this Truth...and again I do caution as your eve bit her apple and then did know a truth...this Truth has far greater reprocussion. It take a life...only lived once and with ultimate fear in sin and hell to one who then knows each act upon this realm rests in an account and we have only time to uncover ourself in this journey.

Em, you humble me with your suggestion, but the truth is...I did not know if it would be making sense and I do know it most likely didn't.

But I truly wish with my heart, that you do read my initial post again and try to understand the words behind the humble references.

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 06:16 PM
Do you believe in karma and if so, how does it relate to god's will or does it in the first place?

Absolutely, I believe in karma. And I think it greatly relates to God's will. I'm not really an expert on the topic, so maybe I shouldn't really say anything about it yet. But I definitely and strongly feel karma is part of God's plan. :)

Ganeshprasad
19 July 2011, 06:18 PM
Pranam

I for one would not tell anyone to convert, you have to do what you think is best for you. Besides i would not advise any one to hurt their parents especially when you say you love them. there are some obligation one owes, Matru rin Pitru rin.
In this case one example comes to mind, Sankracharya, would not take sanyas without the permission of her mother.
One thing you can do is always follow Dharma for that your parents can not stop you doing it, this does not require any label.

Jai Shree Krishna

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 06:25 PM
Do not leave for this discussion...

Leaving for reasons other than uncovering this Truth we have become washed away in would only mean some lone day would come when the fear, deeply imbedded into many a christian heart would come back and again you would become conflicted.

Just read here, if you do want to know this Truth...and again I do caution as your eve bit her apple and then did know a truth...this Truth has far greater reprocussion. It take a life...only lived once and with ultimate fear in sin and hell to one who then knows each act upon this realm rests in an account and we have only time to uncover ourself in this journey.

Em, you humble me with your suggestion, but the truth is...I did not know if it would be making sense and I do know it most likely didn't.

But I truly wish with my heart, that you do read my initial post again and try to understand the words behind the humble references.

Namaste NayaSurya,

I'm so sorry I didn't reply at first.
I went, read your full message, and your words are in my mind. :) What you have said is clear.
Thank you for your love. :)

Sahasranama
19 July 2011, 06:36 PM
Pranam

I for one would not tell anyone to convert.
Neither am I, but since he is here asking questions, I will be honest to say that his views are not in alignment with Christianity in the first place. But ultimately, he has to decide himself whether to leave Christianity or cling to old beliefs that don't serve him anymore.


In this case one example comes to mind, Sankracharya, would not take sanyas without the permission of her mother.
One thing you can do is always follow Dharma for that your parents can not stop you doing it, this does not require any label.
This has nothing to do with Shankaracarya's beliefs. He asked his mother permission to become a renunciate, because in order to do this, he wouldn't be able to serve his mother anymore. He didn't ask his mother permission to become an advaitin. These are two different things.

Eastern Mind
19 July 2011, 06:40 PM
Neither am I, but since he is here asking questions, I will be honest to say that his views are not in alignment with Christianity in the first place. But ultimately, he has to decide himself whether to leave Christianity or cling to old beliefs that don't serve him anymore.

Vannakkam: Me too. It's wrong to try to convert anyone, but when its on your own volition, that's another story. Certainly my 'conversion' wasn't helped along by anyone except me. (Well, to be honest, Boss's parents blamed me for her conversion, and my parents blamed her for my conversion, but both got it wrong.):) We did it our way. Five long years.

Aum Namasivaya

UniversalLove
19 July 2011, 08:32 PM
Maybe the right thing to do is just to make the best out of this path. :)

Ananda
19 July 2011, 09:52 PM
Hello Adam,

I live in the UK where the state religion is Christianity, however, I was raised in an atheistic, free thinking family, which was to my great benefit as it gave me the tools and skepticism to carve out my own path in life. I've never been a christian, but I have studied Christianity extensively, amongst many other religions. There is so much troubling cultural baggage attached to Christianity, and so many in-fighting of sects and denominations that it no longer exists as a monolithic entity, but a large collection of fractured cells, replete with outdated and irrelevant doctrines which in turn negatively effect the moral and political landscape of the western world.

Thankfully, there is a growing trend towards liberalism with many christians such as yourself, especially in Europe. However, radical, fundamentalist Christianity still has its claws in a large percentage of the American population, and the barbaric, hateful superstitions of reformation times have seen a revival in emerging christian populations of West and South Africa - all thanks to the missionary zeal of disgusting evangelicalism spreading from the American Bible Belt. These beliefs are archaic- they inform laws legislating a prison sentence or worse for homosexuals, and witch hunting; an artifact of the 16th Century, has seen a new birth amongst the poorest populations who see demons and satan's agents everywhere trying to bring about the eschatological end-times scenario so widely believed in by conservative christians worldwide.

This fundamentalist Christianity is a plague, it is a cancer, because it stunts all intellectual and spiritual growth whilst charading as 'the way, the truth, and the life'. It must be noted, however, that these beliefs are not new- these beliefs have been central to Christianity for centuries. It is only now, in the face of post-enlightenment era thinking, that we can see Christianity for what it really is; an outdated and superstitious crutch that more often than not relies on blind faith to the supression of all reasoning and genuine spiritual enquiry. The fundamentalist movement is nothing but a reaction against this realization- a denial of the obvious in the face of maturing, progressing humanity.

You're probably aware that your beliefs, in comparison to most other christians, are admirably liberal, full of tolerance and respect. You don't read the Bible literally; or rather, you choose what to take literally on the basis of your own reasoning and innate sense of morality- and you reject the rest, you reject the disgusting, tyrannical God portrayed in the Tanakh, and you put your faith in Jesus. However, be aware that this method of choosing what to believe, and being liberal with 'The Word of God' is a new thing; this is a new and modern way of reading the Bible, it's a new way of being christian. Because of this, you don't represent the majority of Christianity; neither in terms of christians world wide, nor Christianity as it stands historically or theologically. Christianity still carries its blood soaked past with it. It still carries the stigma of illogical, contradictory doctrine. It still carries with it its patched-together ideas of who and what God is, and with that it carries the offspring of forty thousand denominations all arguing about the 'One True God' (who is also three people!), and the straight and narrow path to Heaven; who will go there and who will go to hell to burn in the lake of fire, 'created for the Devil and his angels'.

So, you see, with this new liberal approach to Christianity, Christianity itself is in danger of becoming redundant. It will become so diluted, so divorced from its middle eastern roots, and so alien to its own ancient dogmas that there is no reason for it to exist any longer. You believe in God, and in Jesus, but your concept of God is estranged from the God propogated in the Bible to the degree that it becomes more of an abstract belief in something greater, some great force of love and being. Jesus, too, becomes a vehicle of moral teaching, and not the man-god of atoning sacrifice who would usher in a Kingdom of God in first century Palestine. Christianity essentially loses its religious identity and becomes a form of idealistic humanism- a humanism which many, many non-christian and atheists adhere to without all of the cultural and dogmatic baggage of religion. So, really, you don't need Christianity if you want to love God and be kind to your neighbour, you just have to be true to your own inner moral compass, and have faith in your own spiritual insights.

In my own experience, christians have been amongst the most intolerant, closed minded and simply stupid people I've ever met. Their beliefs erode their brains- shuts off further enquiry into the nature of the self and the world. Mainstream Christianity is like a dead-end in terms of intellectual development and spiritual growth- you can't ask too many questions, and the answers you do get always conflict by proxy with the christian next door. Mainstream Christianity loves tradition but frowns on spirituality; the bible tells you who you are and what God is, therefore, 'do not lean on your own understanding' and do not enquire 'who am I?' Mainstream Christianity appeals to a good, moral living in the costume of dusty rituals and traditions, myths and doctrines- it offers nothing over and above common sense humanism for the modern man. There is little spiritual food to be found within Christianity, however, there is some.

Christian mystics have, for nearly two thousand years, been investigating the depths of human experience, divorced from dogma and liturgy. These were people living on the fringes of orthodoxy, and many of them suffered ex-communication from the church or worse. There are still monastic traditions around today, which, while sagging under the weight of irrational, illogical doctrines, offer a glimmer of hope at the heart of Christianity, as liberal christians do on the edge. If you haven't done so already, I recommend you research the teachings of christian mystics such as Meister Eckhart, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Francis of Assisi. These christian teachers and saints, amongst others, are in my opinion the only gems worth salvaging from the corpse of Christianity - the only redeeming voices that speak from the past, from the peak of christian dominance.

You say that you are unsure about Christianity, or of being a christian. Despite my scathing criticisms of Christianity, I echo others here who suggest you stay with your religion and make the most of it. As I've mentioned, there are some doorways to spirituality within Christianity that are still open, so I think these are worth going through before you make any drastic decisions.
I also recommend that you research the history of Christianity, as well as the history of the Bible- its origins and formation, including the canonization of the New Testament, along with the hundreds of other Gospels and texts that were discarded or rejected, as they offer a very different view of Jesus, a more spiritual one. I recommend that you read a book on christian mysticism, as this might appeal to your spirituality, and also the Gospel of Thomas- a non-canonical gospel of enigmatic sayings of Jesus, which may appeal to self-enquiry or introspection.


As for me, i'm hindu now, after 18 years of being an atheist. The Vedanta is a perfect blend of logical reasoning to appeal to my critical thinking faculties, and profound spiritual insights, to appeal to my real nature. With texts such as the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Brahma Sutras, Vivekachudamani, Upadesha Sahasri, Ashtavakra Samhita, Avadhuta Gita and the Yoga Vasistha, all of the texts of Judaism, Islam and Christianity combined are left in the dust, to be discarded as artifacts of an age of poetry, superstition and spiritual ignorance.

:)

charitra
20 July 2011, 12:43 AM
This has nothing to do with Shankaracarya's beliefs. He asked his mother permission to become a renunciate, because in order to do this, he wouldn't be able to serve his mother anymore. He didn't ask his mother permission to become an advaitin. These are two different things.
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Agree. Shankaracharya, the proponent of advaita was humble to convince his mom that once he becomes a sanyasi/monk/renunciate then she no longer should expect him to be her son in any shape or form. She has to treat him the way all other sanyasis are expected to be treated, she cannot even visit him as a mom !! He explained to her the bitter reality of their future relationship, that simply there wont be any future relationship !!
Last month one famous monk in his forties had died in northwest India. The parents, understandably, demanded cremation as per hindu rites. The disciples had other thoughts. There are rare exceptions where hindus could be buried. One of them being a revered monk, who can be buried according to some shastras. His disciples hence decided in favor of burial and to construct a Samadhi/memorial in the said monk’s name. The row between the parents and the disciples reached a crescendo that authorities had to intervene. The disciples won and parents lost the appeal. A well known renunciate beyond all doubts who he was, it is proof enough for the authorities that by the shastras the parents ceased to be parents from the day he chose his sanyas, and he becomes part/ property of the ashram from that moment forward, live or later. (A sanyasi can reverse the status of renunciation by himself at any stage, I want to add this just for completion of debate). Namaste.

Ganeshprasad
20 July 2011, 09:57 AM
Pranam

Let my statement be read with context with which it was made, ILoveGod had expressed his desire that he loved his parents. I had used the example of Sankracharya in that context only.

In our dharma, not withstanding the concepts, the Sanyas is the highest position, without the blessing of parents it is not recommended.

Sankracharya was attracted to sanyas from his childhood, he enacted the lila of being dragged by a crocodile, mother being helpless left with no option agreed to his Sanyas thus Shankaracharya recited the mantras of renunciation and immediately, the crocodile left him.

Whole point of my using this example was only to impress ILoveGod that it is wise to seek the blessing of his parents.

As to adwaita sidhant Saha mentions, is a matter of conjecture, he learnt his Brahm gyan from his guru Govinda Bhagavatpada. On the banks of Narmada River.

Off course once taken Sanyas there can not be old ties so there is no question of ownership or attachment, but sankracharya made one exception going against sanyas code of conduct and agreed to perform her last right of agni sanskar.

This thread is not about sanyas, example is made to show the importance of parents blessings.


Santi Parva: Mokshadharma Parva
Section CCLXVI
Bhishma said:
There is no mode of life that is superior to serving one’s mother.

Jai Shree Krishna

nitinsharma
20 July 2011, 10:50 AM
Namaste NayaSurya,

Thank you for your love. :)

HATRED!HATRED!HATRED!

sanjaya
20 July 2011, 10:53 AM
Ok, I am considering leaving Christianity, but what about how that affects my family? I love them.

And what would the first step be in leaving Christianity?

If you're family is going to be terribly upset by your leaving, my personal opinion is that you should stay in the religion. Better, I think, to practice a false/hateful religion and just go through the motions than break up a family. That's no better than what Christian missionaries do in India (especially given that our religion isn't hateful!).

It would be a good thing, however, if you didn't give money to missionaries or help Christians to convert people.

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 11:23 AM
Namaste sunyata,


mostly due to bad personal experiences with insanely narrow-minded and bigoted Christians.

The exact reason I am no longer Christian: I know where and when I'm not wanted. I am now home with Sanatana Dharma. I feel a closeness, accessibility and a sense of being pervaded by Lord Sri Krishna that I never felt from Jesus.


You're a rare kind of Christian in that you are decent, polite and respecting of other people's faiths. We don't really see alot of that these days, you have to understand.

True dat! :D

Sahasranama
20 July 2011, 11:29 AM
@ GP, parent's blessing are not important when it comes to true conviction, in this case think of Prahlada.

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 11:31 AM
There is something fundamentally wrong with being a Christian, but not all people who claim to be Christians are real Christians and that is a good thing.

I'd change that to "There is something fundamentally wrong with calling oneself Christian, because not all people who claim to be Christians are real Christians". I can think of priests, bishops, popes and patriarchs who are and were the furthest thing from Christian. Don't get me started! Wait, wut? You already did. :Roll:

Sahasranama
20 July 2011, 11:36 AM
I'd change that to "There is something fundamentally wrong with calling oneself Christian, because not all people who claim to be Christians are real Christians". I can think of priests, bishops, popes and patriarchs who are and were the furthest thing from Christian. Don't get me started! Wait, wut? You already did. :Roll:A good person cannot be a good Christian and a good Christian cannot be a good person. Simply, because Christianity is a perverted ideology. There is a reason fundamental Christians are worse than moderate Christians. Those two words say everything, fundamental Christians are more Christian and moderate Christians are less Christian. The more people move away from the teachings of Christianity, the better people they become. So good people shouldn't call themselves Christians, because if they are truly good people, they are not Christian.

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 11:44 AM
Ok, I am considering leaving Christianity, but what about how that affects my family? I love them.

Be your own man. No one has to know what's in your heart.


And what would the first step be in leaving Christianity?

Realizing it's not the path you want to follow, or are following. Your path is already laid out in front of you, as is mine. It's often a gradual evolution. I had leanings towards Hinduism as far back as high school (look at my age now), and even as a reader and active member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

It was Maa Saraswati who actually gave me the push. She is my musical patroness, though Lord Sri Krishna is my Ishtadeva (actually I pray to everyone, but especially to Him). I have an image of Maa Saraswati near where I play guitar. Since I put Her image there, my playing and learning has improved. So I knew where I belonged.

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 11:56 AM
A good person cannot be a good Christian and a good Christian cannot be a good person. Simply, because Christianity is a perverted ideology. There is a reason fundamental Christians are worse than moderate Christians. Those two words say everything, fundamental Christians are more Christian and moderate Christians are less Christian. The more people move away from the teachings of Christianity, the better people they become. So good people shouldn't call themselves Christians, because if they are truly good people, they are not Christian.

Hmm... interesting take on it, and I can't disagree. Fundamental (or Fundamentalcase, as I call them) Christians are literalists, and therein lies their danger. "Moderate" Christians who only profess love for God and fellow man, non-violence, who don't label themselves, who follow "live and let live", and distance themselves from the Fundamentalcase and literalist "Christians" are... on the road to Sanatana Dharma.

Ganeshprasad
20 July 2011, 12:34 PM
Pranam


@ GP, parent's blessing are not important when it comes to true conviction, in this case think of Prahlada.

And he never disowned them at any point of time, even when he was being tortured in so many ways.

How many of us ordinary people have that conviction?

better follow shastra, Sankracharya was well versed in vedas

Jai Shree Krishna

Sahasranama
20 July 2011, 01:05 PM
Pranam

And he never disowned them at any point of time, even when he was being tortured in so many ways.

How many of us ordinary people have that conviction?

better follow shastra, Sankracharya was well versed in vedas

Jai Shree KrishnaI am sorry to say, but you do not base your arguments on shastra, but only on your personal imaginations. Shastra doesn't say that one can't become a Hindu without permission of parents.

Ganeshprasad
20 July 2011, 01:26 PM
Pranam


I am sorry to say, but you do not base your arguments on shastra, but only on your personal imaginations. Shastra doesn't say that one can't become a Hindu without permission of parents.

Do not be sorry on my account, so you want to be personal, where did i say you cant become a Hindu? don't twist my words, if you are happy for someone to hurt their parents, go against their wishes as well as his own stated love for them and break up the family, then be my guest make him what ever you want.
perhaps if you can tell what my personal imagination is here, then i can respond, are you just arguing for the sake of it?

Jai Shree Krishna

UniversalLove
20 July 2011, 02:31 PM
Thank you all so much for your help, but I have just realized that a lot of my own personal beliefs are in line with Sanatana Dharma, so I am looking into it on a clean slate. :)

sanjaya
20 July 2011, 03:46 PM
@ GP, parent's blessing are not important when it comes to true conviction, in this case think of Prahlada.

Actually that's a good point that I hadn't considered. Granted, Prahlada's father was a demon king, but still...

Eastern Mind
20 July 2011, 04:06 PM
Vannakkam: Regarding parents, there are degrees of separation or hard feelings. It is based on each individual case. Some parents will never understand anything. Even if the daughter became the Queen of England, that wouldn't be good enough.

If they taught you to think for yourself, and then you do just that, suddenly they have a turn of mind?

Even sannyasins vary. In the sannyasin order I am most familiar with, mothers are allowed to visit sons, but they are taught to understand it is no longer an odic force thing, they see all the brother monks as their own son. In reverse, all the sannyasins see her as their own mother.

So the whole thing is quite complex, varying a lot. I know converts whose parents may as well have converted as well. I also know some whose parents remain aloof, and would just choose to not talk about it. Its not a perfect world out there, and the definition of family varies a lot from country to country.

What of the young man or woman who breaks caste in a marriage when their parents remain quite 'casted' ?

I know my own parents didn't exactly love what I did, but there were lots of things they didn't exactly love. But then neither did they hate it.

I think in order to break away in any sense from the previous values, you need at least for them to understand why you're doing it, from some level, which doesn't necessarily mean an all out total blessing. After all, you're an adult, its your life now, not theirs.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
20 July 2011, 04:28 PM
Since I do not have the parents to disappoint I have not had this problem. However my heart knows deeply the pain of not being able to share this Joy of Truth we have stumbled upon with others whom are so Beloved to us.

But, Beloved Krishna state very beautifully that we should not disturb those who are still as a child sleeping peacefully in sweet simple ignorance. This means as children we must tread very carefully and use compassionate restraint when it comes to those who may become very very disturbed by the belief that their beloved child will burn in hell.

So I hate to quote The Water Boy here...(look it up on youtube) but....

Coach(Fonzy from Happy Days) told a story about his mother telling him she would never speak to him again if he got tattoo and then he bare his bottom to show tattoo of Elvis on his butt cheek and say...

"What mama don't know, won't hurt her."

So my own Beloved husband has a very ederly grandmother who raised him as he was abandoned...and she is very very crazy devout southern baptist. She tell him that her dying wish is that he found a good church.

He told her..."Yes." and with all his heart this was the Truth.

Because our Temple is the Supreme Church of Truth...and besides...our home is Temple...and our Heart is Temple!

So for one deciding to know more...and to unfold within this Beloved Truth we all have found and become sheltered so wonderfully within...I say...strive on<3

But do so with compassionate restraint

Jainarayan
20 July 2011, 04:33 PM
Since I do not have the parents to disappoint I have not had this problem. However my heart knows deeply the pain of not being able to share this Joy of Truth we have stumbled upon with others whom are so Beloved to us.

My parents are long dead, but they would not have understood. Neither will my sisters (my brothers would) nor some of my nieces and nephews. So I keep things like this to myself. I've learned the hard way to keep things to myself that are not in their mainstream thinking. After all, it is between me and the Lord.

NayaSurya
20 July 2011, 04:43 PM
Yes, I think one of the first lesson of this path is to let our hands fall off of those things around us we should not put a hand upon.

At least for me, I had this crazy notion of control....with so many children I was as a juggler trying to maintain 10 balls at once.

Took my hands off the balls and you know what? They floated away!

Ganeshprasad
20 July 2011, 06:36 PM
Pranam

While I can understand for those who are new to SD, especially with the western values which differs a lot, for a start when the children get to a certain age they are expected to leave the fold and fend for them selves.

but the hindu culture operates with different sets of values, enshrined in Shastra.

I have been accused of using my imagination, without any valid ground I must add, so Saha this is for you, from Manu smriti;

2.145. The teacher (akarya) is ten times more venerable than a sub-teacher (upadhyaya), the father a hundred times more than the teacher, but the mother a thousand times more than the father.



2.227. That trouble (and pain) which the parents undergo on the birth of (their) children, cannot be compensated even in a hundred years.

This is the rin (obligation i was talking about)

2.228. Let him always do what is agreeable to those (two) and always (what may please) his teacher; when

those three are pleased, he obtains all (those rewards which) austerities (yield).



2.229. Obedience towards those three is declared to be the best (form of) austerity; let him not perform other meritorious acts without their permission.



2.230. For they are declared to be the three worlds, they the three (principal) orders, they the three Vedas, and they the three sacred fires.



2.231. The father, forsooth, is stated to be the Garhapatya fire, the mother the Dakshinagni, but the teacher the Ahavaniya fire; this triad of fires is most venerable.



2.232. He who neglects not those three, (even after he has become) a householder, will conquer the three worlds and, radiant in body like a god, he will enjoy bliss in heaven.



2.233. By honouring his mother he gains this (nether) world, by honouring his father the middle sphere, but by obedience to his teacher the world of Brahman.



2.234. All duties have been fulfilled by him who honours those three; but to him who honours them not, all rites remain fruitless.

2.235. As long as those three live, so long let him not (independently) perform any other (meritorious acts); let him always serve them, rejoicing (to do what is) agreeable and beneficial (to them).

2.236. He shall inform them of everything that with their consent he may perform in thought, word, or deed for the sake of the next world.

Jai Shree Krishna

UniversalLove
21 July 2011, 03:36 AM
Thanks again to everyone who has given their share of thoughts. :)

kallol
21 July 2011, 04:21 AM
For the sake to SD, let us have more patience in in differentiating the other religions as the knowledge part and the political part.

As mentioned in another thread, the lower part of any religion is mixed with politics, culture, way of life, traditions, history rituals, etc. You will find the competitive forces residing in this area mostly.

The other religions do not have the luxury of so many saints, rishis to create a huge data bank of knowledge. The knowledge therefore based on the realisation of one person's limitation and the interpretation by blind followers.

The higher knowledge (gyan yoga level) is sparsely there western religion - a bit more in chiristianity than islam. So the people mostly relied on the lower level of the religion to understand the concept of God.

If you take Hindusim, the lower level is similar and some cases worse with caste, sati, rituals, tradition, tantrik, etc.

If I consider Christ - he has said something. Whatever came up as Bible is only a few hundred years afterward - already diluted and polluted. The conversions were the politically motivated schemes of the west, which till now goes on in some form. We do not have any problem with them as long as they dow not want to encroach our space.

So those are political issues which needs to be addressed politically. And in politcs everything is dirty.

Christianity by itself (the knowledge) has certain advantages and certain weaknesses. That is a seperate issue which the followers need to address when they want to move beyond.

Our frustration is more political than religion. It would be distinguished as that.

Love and best wishes

UniversalLove
21 July 2011, 04:51 AM
Just something else I wanted to share on the topic of Christianity:

I would just like to make it clear that I am not a missionary. I am nothing in disguise nor do I have a "hidden agenda".

I am only a seeker, who has been confused from time to time on the subject of faith.

Never would I wish to do anything deceitful.
Conversion has never been a part of my values.

I am just on a journey of seeking God. :)
And my interest in and devotion to learning about Sanatana Dharma are very real.

(I just felt I needed to say that, since I made this thread, and hopefully I am not suspected of being a "missionary in disguise" just because I asked this question in the OP.)

UniversalLove
21 July 2011, 05:36 AM
The underlying point of my original post is this:

I have seen posts around HDF that to me seemed like all Christians were grouped together and treated as threats.

And I know that people have had bad experiences with Christians. I also have had bad experiences with some Christians.

For those who do, please don't judge or group together certain groups of people, such as Christians, and that applies to others (males, females, caucasian, African American, etc.).

There are Christians out there who do sincerely follow Jesus in the way of love, kindness, respect, and tolerance toward others.

kallol
21 July 2011, 06:05 AM
Just something else I wanted to share on the topic of Christianity:

I would just like to make it clear that I am not a missionary. I am nothing in disguise nor do I have a "hidden agenda".

I am only a seeker, who has been confused from time to time on the subject of faith.

Never would I wish to do anything deceitful.
Conversion has never been a part of my values.

I am just on a journey of seeking God. :)
And my interest in and devotion to learning about Sanatana Dharma are very real.

(I just felt I needed to say that, since I made this thread, and hopefully I am not suspected of being a "missionary in disguise" just because I asked this question in the OP.)

Just enjoy the forum. Do not get upset by stray comments. People belong to different layers in terms of space, time and maturity. That way all are unique and opiniated.

Take out what you cherish, understand and fit into. Discard the rest.

Love and best wishes

UniversalLove
21 July 2011, 06:07 AM
Just enjoy the forum. Do not get upset by stray comments. People belong to different layers in terms of space, time and maturity. That way all are unique and opiniated.

Take out what you cherish, understand and fit into. Discard the rest.

Love and best wishes

Thanks so much. :)

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 07:55 PM
I have and can honestly say that I have had good experience with all the good christians I have met. See I am curious about christainity but even the good christians seem to have a block that does not exist with me and that even though they are super if they are going to tell you about their lord they want you to say he is the god and there no other god. As a hindu I can't think that way. I don't expect anyone to have a belief that vishnu is the god just because they are reading the Gita or finding out about hinduism. This did happen with someone that I love dearly, a good christian in everyway. So I automatically assume or I somehow get the impression that is true in most cases.

I had a guy who changed my tire when my car stopped and he did in the name of the lord. I will never forget that or other christians I know. They are kind and a word I think only christians understand.

To me, god is the same and religion is your looking glass. We cannot all possible catch a glimpse of him in one angle and sometimes even if we are part of the same religion.

UniversalLove
24 July 2011, 10:46 PM
I have and can honestly say that I have had good experience with all the good christians I have met. See I am curious about christainity but even the good christians seem to have a block that does not exist with me and that even though they are super if they are going to tell you about their lord they want you to say he is the god and there no other god. As a hindu I can't think that way. I don't expect anyone to have a belief that vishnu is the god just because they are reading the Gita or finding out about hinduism. This did happen with someone that I love dearly, a good christian in everyway. So I automatically assume or I somehow get the impression that is true in most cases.

I had a guy who changed my tire when my car stopped and he did in the name of the lord. I will never forget that or other christians I know. They are kind and a word I think only christians understand.

To me, god is the same and religion is your looking glass. We cannot all possible catch a glimpse of him in one angle and sometimes even if we are part of the same religion.

Well-said, and I agree with what you said about how God is the same. :)

RosemaryOs
25 July 2011, 07:22 AM
Dear I Love God,

In any reply about this subject, I have to be careful here, because this is my first post and because this is a very helpful forum in so many ways.

Your original question is countered with this: why does any religion have to be integrated as either/or? Can it not all be embraced?

Sri Ramakrishna once went into Samadhi for 3 days after having seen a painting of Mary and Jesus on the wall at Jadu Malik's home. Swami Vivekananda once wrote the most beautiful interpretation of Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount". It is my understanding that these high beings had entirely embraced and integrated the Christian religion into a verifiable path to God.

It seems to me that a corruption in interpretation has led to bigotry and to self serving egotism and this has put a bad face on Christianity.

It does not mean that Christianity is bad, just that some Christians (most?) have not got the right meaning in their hearts.

I had no idea that being a Christian was a bad thing till I read it here.

For me, I have stopped subscribing to religion, it has let me down too many time. I am looking for truth now, and when I find it, I hope that I have the good sense to surrender.

Yours,
Rosemary

shantiseeker
25 July 2011, 09:54 AM
Very interesting discussion. I know I can't remember all the posts as I just read the thread-so forgive me if anything seems redundant. I was at most of my life, a "Christian". Even as such, amongst the umbrella of Christianity and all its sects, certain fundamentalist sects would have consigned me to a lake of fire. Some years ago, I worked in a small department of about 8 people where 4 were fundamentalist Christian. They didn't proselytize at work (knew better), but boy, did I still know their sentiments. I just avoided religious discussion altogether, and they sure did not believe the liberal denomination I belonged to at the time was up to their specifications, as if it were a "false" Christianity. The fundamentalist groups are more the attackers of other religions, including other Christians, but quite unfortunately, they give a bad rap to all other Christians. And again-not every fundamentalist Christian is actively attacking. My colleagues didn't actively attack me, but it was clear in their attitude what they thought, but they weren't out there doing some of the hateful spewing that we identify with many fundamentalists. They don't even realize for each hateful thing said, they may as well be saying it to Jesus, who wouldn't even recognize that behavior as associated with him. But oh boy-if my former colleagues only knew I am exploring Hinduism and have actually been chanting, praying, and beginning to study it. I'd bet then they'd have given me an earful, in a friendly parking lot conversation or phone call outside of work. I actually admired the tenacity of their faith-I sure didn't have it in Christianity. At the same time, even to this day-I do admire Jesus, and believe him to have his place too, but much like the Hindu gods-one aspect of the Supreme.

Eastern Mind
25 July 2011, 02:01 PM
Dear I Love God,

In any reply about this subject, I have to be careful here, because this is my first post and because this is a very helpful forum in so many ways.

Your original question is countered with this: why does any religion have to be integrated as either/or? Can it not all be embraced?

Sri Ramakrishna once went into Samadhi for 3 days after having seen a painting of Mary and Jesus on the wall at Jadu Malik's home. Swami Vivekananda once wrote the most beautiful interpretation of Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount". It is my understanding that these high beings had entirely embraced and integrated the Christian religion into a verifiable path to God.

It seems to me that a corruption in interpretation has led to bigotry and to self serving egotism and this has put a bad face on Christianity.

It does not mean that Christianity is bad, just that some Christians (most?) have not got the right meaning in their hearts.

I had no idea that being a Christian was a bad thing till I read it here.

For me, I have stopped subscribing to religion, it has let me down too many time. I am looking for truth now, and when I find it, I hope that I have the good sense to surrender.

Yours,
Rosemary

Vannakkam: Sanatana Dharma is vast. What you stated is one view within Sanatana Dharma. There are many others. We choose which ones make the most sense to us. I just wanted to let you know that it is false thinking to think that there is only one way to interpret such things within SD. I can never stress the vastness enough.

Ramakrishna and Vivekenanda were Hindu universalists, similar to the way UU is to Christianity, I suppose. Others may differ with this view too. :)

For example, for me personally, I don't think Christ existed at all, and the Saints you mention were speaking from an already realised perspective. Their realisations came first from within SD. But that's just the take that makes sense to me. Just here ion this forum there will be many viewpoints, let alone outside with devotees who don't talk on forums on the internet.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
25 July 2011, 02:28 PM
Namaste Rosemary.


Swami Vivekananda once wrote the most beautiful interpretation of Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount".

There is also The Sermon On The Mount According To Vedanta (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-sermon-on-the-mount-according-to-vedanta-swami-prabhavananda/1003350795). Mine was by Swami Prabhavananda. I read it in college, no idea what I did with the book, or what it was about, 30 years later.

Just sayin'. Carry on. ;)

Sahasranama
25 July 2011, 02:42 PM
There is some irony here, the biblical text have always remained worthless, but suddenly when Hindu swamis start brining their own ideas into it, they start to become more popular among spiritually inclined and liberal people. Similarly, trancendentalists have taken ideas from Hinduism to make the Bible look interesting. It is clear then, that the cause of the positivity is Hinduism and that the Bible itself is irrelevant nonsense.

Eastern Mind
25 July 2011, 02:51 PM
I had no idea that being a Christian was a bad thing till I read it here.



Vannakkam Rosemary: I'm sorry but I just find this hard to believe. There are satirists on TV, fairly talkative atheists, Islamics, and many more expressing this view. Surely you've encountered this viewpoint somewhere else besides here on HDF. Please don't get me wrong. I do thing Xianity is a good thing for some people. We Hindus (well, most of us) don't think in black white good versus evil Abrahamic ways.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
25 July 2011, 03:22 PM
I had no idea that being a Christian was a bad thing till I read it here.

Oh that attitude is rampant in the world. The issue here at HDF is one of being wounded at what European Christianity and Islam have done in India (not to mention every other civilization it came into contact with) over the centuries. I had my eyes opened a while back, because I previously saw things through the lens of my western and Christian upbringing (what else did I have?). And what I saw in myself I don't like.

I think for the most part the people here don't think Christianity is bad. Some do; most are indifferent to it.

Treating others as you want to be treated; loving God with all your abilty; seeing God in everyone and everything really can't be condemned, whatever you want to call it.

If Christianity had not made forced conversions and exported and inflicted its conflated religious and political beliefs on the rest of the world, I don't think this thread would exist. Christianity would be no different than Animism, Shinto, Buddhism, Baha'i, Pastafarianism (the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all that silliness) or any indigenous religions. No one talks about the Russian or Greek Orthodox Churches, or the Coptic Church. It's really all about the western brand of Christianity, in my view.

I myself have a very sour taste about what Christians have done to me. When I considered myself at least nominally Christian I was told by other Christians I couldn't possibly be a Christian, for reasons I won't go into. I would be denied the sacraments of the Orthodox Church, to which I belonged. Suffice to say they were making judgments that were expressly forbidden by the God they believe in, in Matthew 5:1-2.

Now as a Hindu, I've found my home. It's like a flaming arrow has gone through me, and that flame I really can feel as God. Well, that's enough about me.

Now I think we should talk about... me! :D

kallol
26 July 2011, 05:10 AM
To RosemaryOs

Know all. What ever you feel comfortable with, adopt and carry on till you feel the need for moving to higher level of knowledge.

Then again find the next level of knowledge where you are comfortable ..... so on and so forth.

Jesus, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, etc are only the messengers. Let us not focus on them only untill and unless we want to make God out of them.

Let us focus on the Knowledge part, which is impersonal, timeless, spaceless. Knowledge is permanent messengers are not. Messengers wanted us to acquire the knowledge and not really to treat them as God.

Now again there are layers in the religions. The lowest layer is the thickest layer where most of the people belong to. This layer is a mix of philosophy, culture, tradition, rituals, way of life, politics, etc - almost 100&#37; materialitic.

As we are all attached to these materialistic parameters, we feel insecured when we are moving or forced to move to a different sets of parameters.

It is here that people fight, people debate, etc. As we stay more and more in this layer we become confused and not able to distinguish the differences in the religions.

As we move up - when the knowledge part becomes more and more free from the materialistic parameters, the differences become clearer.

It is not wrong to be at a particular layer. But wanting to stay there, stagnates one in terms of spirituality.

So move towards impersonal, immaterilistic layers - where there is only knowledge.

Love and best wishes

RosemaryOs
26 July 2011, 06:36 AM
I appreciate your reply and agree with most of your points about reaching our goal. All except for this quote below. I'm not sure about this.

(As I recall, when Holy Mother Sri Sarada Devi was asked by a devotee in conversation if she were God she only replied by making a giggle.)



Jesus, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, etc are only the messengers. Let us not focus on them only untill and unless we want to make God out of them.


How can one feel devotion towards a messenger??

Adhvagat
26 July 2011, 09:56 AM
There is some irony here, the biblical text have always remained worthless, but suddenly when Hindu swamis start brining their own ideas into it, they start to become more popular among spiritually inclined and liberal people. Similarly, trancendentalists have taken ideas from Hinduism to make the Bible look interesting. It is clear then, that the cause of the positivity is Hinduism and that the Bible itself is irrelevant nonsense.

I wouldn't say it's nonsense. It's a very fragmented book, that one part talks about love and humility and another about stoning adulterers.

Something is clearly wrong in the compiling of this book.

And these discrepancies are observable even in some Hindu treatises, like the Manu samhita.

But the first part of your phrase is spot on, the Christian tradition lacks a lot when it comes to philosophical maturity to properly expand the meanings contained in its worthy metaphors.

Can something be found of worth in Christianity? Yes, it's a stream, tainted, but a stream nonetheless. Hinduism is still in a very pure form, so why not drink from there? ;)

Usually there are cultural barriers, people are raised Christians, people can't properly look at what's wrong in the tradition, any critic is viewed as an attack, an emotional response takes action and then all objectivity is lost.

Jainarayan
26 July 2011, 10:01 AM
Something is clearly wrong in the compiling of this book.

Yes... one man's ego: Emperor Constantine, who called the council of Nicaea and commissioned the compilation of the bible. Jewish rabbinical scholars do not even take all of the OT seriously.

Adhvagat
26 July 2011, 10:03 AM
That's exactly my point and here goes the second part of my post that I'd post before my connection dropped:


It does not mean that Christianity is bad, just that some Christians (most?) have not got the right meaning in their hearts.

I had no idea that being a Christian was a bad thing till I read it here.

For me, I have stopped subscribing to religion, it has let me down too many time. I am looking for truth now, and when I find it, I hope that I have the good sense to surrender.

Yours,
Rosemary

And IMO, that's why the wise choice would be to leave Christianity altogether.

Where this original Christianity? Where are the Christians capable of properly representing the philosophical truths contained in the decent parts of the Bible?

It's long gone, from the get go Christianity was a mess, nothing any of us can do about it.

The real problem starts when Christians are really attached to the messiah figure, yes, in that case Jesus MUST exist at any cost and the Bible MUST be the only and true word of God. Then all arguing becomes fruitless.

What we also need to consider is an Indian Hindu experience with Christianity may be a lot different from what a western may have. Here it's the status quo, it's normal to be a Christian. India was invaded by Christians and colonized by it, Hindu culture was diminished and conversions are a cultural and religious offense. And that's why I advocate that a Hindu should be very sensitive when dealing with this subject, it's very easily perceived wrongly as religious intolerance.

Onkara
26 July 2011, 11:36 AM
IMHO the issue should be considered as theological/philosophical.

Abrahamic (Christian) concepts do not align with the Upanishads. Christian doctrine i.e. the Nicen Creed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) states that Jesus is the one son of God, begotten not made:

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”

This has subtle implications for Vedanta imho. Firstly it means that only Jesus Christ is divine, mankind is not divine, as mankind was made independently of God. This is the contrary to Upanishads which Shyam Narayan Shukla (http://www.worldhindifoundation.org/boardOfDirectors.html), Ph.D. explains here as (http://www.gita-society.com/bhagavad-gita-section4/4_religion.htm):

The Brahadaranyaka Upanishad of the Shukla Yajur Veda says,

Aham Brahmasmi - 'I am Brahman'. The Mahavakya of the Chhandogya Upanishad

of the Sama Veda is, Tat Tvamasi - 'You are That'. Here 'That' means

Brahman, according to the language of the Upanishads. Finally, the Mandukya

Upanishad of the Atharva Veda proclaims as a Mahavakya, Ayamatma Brahma -

'This Atman is Brahman'.

This kind of bold proclamation, that a human being has Atman (soul) within

him or her which is none other than the Supreme Brahman Himself, is

unparalleled in the history of religions anywhere other than in the Vedas."


I have no issue with Christianity, or any person or religion for that matter, but I do think a person interested in religion, should be aware of these certain fundamentals. Which I too am still learning.

The risk is that in order to make Christ fit, we find concepts such as Jesus as Guru or Avatar, this may help with accepting that all religions lead to the same Brahman, but sooner or later the devotee will find that their ideology may not be accepted in their Catholic Church nor in their Hindu Mandir and so they will have to readdress all they have been thinking.

Peace
:)

Adhvagat
26 July 2011, 11:40 AM
Yes, thank you for that quote Onkara!

Where is that from?

Edit: Ok, noticed the link in there. Thanks.

devotee
26 July 2011, 11:43 AM
Good post, Onkara ! :)

OM

Jainarayan
26 July 2011, 12:40 PM
Namaste Onkara...


This has subtle implications for Vedanta imho. Firstly it means that only Jesus Christ is divine, mankind is not divine, as mankind was made independently of God. This is the contrary to Upanishads...


It's a total dichotomy, and diametrically opposed to Hinduism. The dichotomy in Christianity, Judaism and Islam is that there are two levels of existence... the divine, and human, and never the twain shall be one. After "salvation" which is not the same as moksha, the blessed will see God but not be one with God.



The risk is that in order to make Christ fit, we find concepts such as Jesus as Guru or Avatar, this may help with accepting that all religions lead to the same Brahman, but sooner or later the devotee will find that their ideology may not be accepted in their Catholic Church nor in their Hindu Mandir and so they will have to readdress all they have been thinking.

Islam, Baha'i, Judaism see Jesus as a prophet, nothing more. That's all well and good. But referring to "sooner or later the devotee will find that their ideology may not be accepted in their Catholic Church nor in their Hindu Mandir" there is the verse in Matthew 6:24 that underscores it: "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (wealth, materialism)."

RosemaryOs
26 July 2011, 12:43 PM
I find this whole subject very confusing (but most interesting).

Josephine Macleod, Western "friend" and supporter of Swami Vivekananda, never converted to become a Hindu. She claimed that she was Swamiji's friend and not a devotee. ("One wonders why not?" is the question posed by her niece, Frances Leggett). However, Margaret Noble (Nivedita) converted (?) and became his devoted disciple, "The Dedicated" as she is commonly known. ("What if he had never come?" are her words that stick with me.)

When Margaret Wilson, daughter of American President Woodrow Wilson, found her home with Sri Aurobindo in Pondicherry she refused to ever return to the States, even for medical treatment. "They will take care of my body" she said, "but who will take care of my soul?"

What confuses me is this: Sometimes I have read where Hindu gurus will not allow a conversion from the religious tradition that the person was born into. I cannot recall the guru of this point, but I do recall that the would be converter was slapped and told that he was acting in betrayal of his birthright.

Who is right?

smaranam
26 July 2011, 12:47 PM
After "salvation" which is not the same as moksha, the blessed will see God but not be one with God.

What's wrong with that ?
Christian teachings may be fanatic, narrow and primitive, and not really explore Bhagvad tattva, but seeing God, being with Him, and not being "one with God" is the sweetest thing that can happen.

Do you want to "become" or "turn into" the Lord that touched you ? Or do you want to revel in His beauty sweetness and transcendence ?

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya , om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

NayaSurya
26 July 2011, 12:59 PM
+++10 to Onkara:p

It is precisely the reason most of us are here!

This Truth...so totally disturbing to some that it has to be unfolded over several lifetime. The 3 year old child child ask..."Ma what are those lights in the sky?" and the mother may simply respond by singing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Then the 7 year old child ask this same question many years later and the mother reply with a more full answer. "Those are the light of stars, Beloved Child."

Then the 13 year old child ask and we say...an even fuller truth. "Beloved Child, this is the light of stars which is just now reaching us from thousands of years ago."

Deeper and deeper until the full Truth unfold.

If we tell a child that is 3 this full truth, will they understand? Could it disturb them? We take gradual step toward full Truth.

This past morning, my middle son sat for many hours and talked about the simple things I had explained to him long ago about xtianity and why our family is not. Now he is older, I unfolded this full Truth you have post Onkara.

E.M. it does not surprise me how one would not be aware of the truth of what xtianity is...here ...there is a great insulation within this culture..the media hardly ever show the truth of the situation. One would have to visit such broadcasts as John Stewart to even begin to get a notion what the peoples of the world are thinking. I began watching French news programs as a girl so that I could understand what other perspectives of our country and people were....it is a gift to have experience this deeply humbling activity.

This place is a shelter of deeply sleeping individuals. Protected by sheer numbers....I believe it is just as much a part of Beloved's Divine Order just as much as the higher classes going on in Beloved India.

Jainarayan
26 July 2011, 01:09 PM
Nothing wrong with it all if it's one's belief. I'm just pointing out the differences. That's where one has to decide what to believe... do you believe you become one with God after liberation; or do you just exist in the (glorious) presence of God along with other individual souls, saints and angels? I personally can't reconcile the two beliefs that you can be one with God as is moksha, and yet believe that you only see and know God, and not join as one.

Eastern Mind
26 July 2011, 01:12 PM
E.M. it does not surprise me how one would not be aware of the truth of what xtianity is...here ...there is a great insulation within this culture.

Vannakkam Naya: Yes, I think I am really naive to that. Part of my upbringing was to explore. But our neighbours were fundamentalists, and they could not explore. Much, if not almost everything outside their world was evil. We had community picnics and they never attended. As a child, I wondered why. Slowly I am beginning to get the hang of it. Keep head in sand.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
26 July 2011, 01:17 PM
Dear TBTL,

Not all of Hinduism believe you will reunite with Beloved such as this. Many many are of another set of beliefs.

One time on here I see someone say..."It's funny how christians kill each other over the two philosophies whether God is made them of the same stuff he is made of or if they are not"

something like this...I forgot exactly the wording:p

Well I had to giggle because here on the forum two things which bring argument are whether We are Portions of Beloved...who will one day reunite...or just a portion of Beloved's energy (not directly Beloved) manifested and return to His Beloved Feet someday...

I say..Yes, and Yes! Made of and by Beloved! Yes to both at the same time!

So this comment above is about Hinduism, and Beloved.... not the god of xtianity and their beliefs.

Eastern Mind
26 July 2011, 01:20 PM
I find this whole subject very confusing


Vannakkam Rosemary: We're not in the business of creating confusion. That would be adharmic, and I'm sorry if this is what you're finding here.

I believe the problem for you is the diversity of Hinduism. Imagine a stranger to Christianity having 4 conversations: with a Mormon, a JW, a Southern Baptist, and a non-practising liberal 'Christian'. Then have them try to figure it out. :)

Turn this whole thing around, and ask each of them what they think of yoga, or Hinduism. Surely they all wouldn't give you the same answer.

So to solve this dilemma, most people looking into Sanatana Dharma come have a look around, and then are either lead to (by inner stuff, feelings, God if you will) or feel attracted to a particular sect. Then, and only then, does it become far less confusing.

We have one spouse, not 6. Six would be confusing. In that way, most of us here are married to one philosophy personally, yet feel a kinship and respect all other dharmic paths.

But confusion gets larger the further apart the philosophies are, as Onkara so eloquently alluded to earlier. Mixing a few sectarian beliefs won't be as confusing as mixing two opposing religions will.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
26 July 2011, 01:28 PM
Dear TBTL,

Not all of Hinduism believe you will reunite with Beloved such as this. Many many are of another set of beliefs.

I can believe that, considering the varieties, flavors, sects and denominations of Hinduism that co-exist relatively peacefully, and for the most part (afaik) always have some common ground.

However, I have yet to come across a denomination of Christianity that does not believe what mainstream Christianity teaches about sin, salvation, eternal punishment and the righteous "seeing" God. Sure there are fringes, but for the most part, Christianity is cut and dried in its beliefs.

Though I think the thread is straying from the original question of "Is there anything wrong with being Christian?" In a nutshell, if you believe it, no. If you believe that the British Royal and Bush families are shape-shifting Reptilians from Zeta Reticuli (that never ceases to crack me up), doesn't make it wrong to believe it (just a little tooty-frooty :D).

smaranam
26 July 2011, 01:44 PM
Namaste

Do not want to derail the thread, but it is not a matter of "belief" . It is a matter of what is the nature of our surrender to the Supreme Lord (assuming you believe there is an Eternal Supreme Lord) ?

Do you want to merge into His Brahman-jyoti ?
Meditate on "I am He" "I am That" "I am Whole" ?
Stay with Him in your swaroop ? In your relationship with Him and His devotees ?

The Lord reciprocates as we surrender. That also explains multiple religions. Not the corruptions and extremisms in them. Not the political agendas of their outer courts.

All religions have outer inner and innermost courts. Just because God is one, and religions are many does not necessarily mean He is impersonal or that there is no Supreme Controller or that He can be explained away as a "Mass of Universal Aggregate Consciousness".

It means He reciprocates as per bhAv. That is why there are multiple eternal lokas on the other side of viraj river and heavens (temp svarga) on this side of the viraj river.

praNAm

NayaSurya
26 July 2011, 01:50 PM
Forgive my use of belief, I was in a hurry and should have been more careful only have a few moments to post. I was refering to the whole philosophy of this subject.

I come back to apologize and be more careful.

Here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvaita

Wiki is a mixed bag sometimes get Truth, other times not. But do not have time to do so myself.

Beloved Smaranam, I also believe as you. Beloved comes...and so Loving to reciprocate.<3

Please forgive<3

smaranam
26 July 2011, 02:04 PM
Oh there is nothing wrong in the word, NayaSurya, i did not want to give that impression, was only explaining to others how i see it. Also, you were not the only one who said belief :)

praNAm

UniversalLove
26 July 2011, 02:55 PM
Namaste,

Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions. I can see where this thread has gone ever since I posted the original question about a week or so ago.
All I know about myself is this: I love God, and I believe He/She/It also loves all of us. And I don't think God would ever send anyone to an eternal hell. So this is perhaps why my previous religion was just not the right one for me. And I just had to realize that.
And I hope that wherever God leads me, whether it is Sanatana Dharma or otherwise, that I can grow in it.

RosemaryOs
27 July 2011, 07:02 AM
Eastern Mind, et al



But confusion gets larger the further apart the philosophies are, as Onkara so eloquently alluded to earlier. Mixing a few sectarian beliefs won't be as confusing as mixing two opposing religions will.
Aum Namasivaya

This makes sense for me. For instance I have studied several gurus of Hindu thought: Ramana Maharshi, Yogananda, Sri Ramakrishna and also
Shirdi Sai Baba.

This is what I remember from Shirdi Sai Baba and is the point which brings me to confusion here:

"In Baba’s presence, every one felt reassured of his or her faith. He treated all creeds alike. He did not like those who deviated from their respective religious and spiritual traditions. Once a person who had changed his religion came to him. Sai accosted him by asking, “Since when have you changed your father?”"

http://www.shehjar.com/list/0/509/1.html

Yet Ramana Maharshi considered the Holy Hill of Arunachala to be his father!

You can perhaps see my confusion. I prefer the teachings of Ramana Maharshi yet Shirdi Sai Baba has helped me too.

On the same note, even though I prefer the teachings of Ramana Maharshi yet Sri Sarada Devi once came to me in a dream long ago before I knew who she was or how to find her.

So who do I choose, or do I choose at all...

My understanding-- up till this point-- has been that Sanatana Dharma embraces all paths to God---perhaps I am simply basing this understanding solely on Sri Ramakrishna's teachings of Vedanta...

Ramana Maharshi made this quote from the Christian Bible. (Psalm 46:10
"Be still and know that I am God." )

"The method is summed up by “Be still and know that I am God.” What does stillness mean? Cessation of thinking, which is the universe of forms, colours, qualities, time, space, all concepts and percepts whatever." (Ramana Maharshi, GR, 55.)

Even now after much study, the Hindu teachings are in my mind are often sifted down to a single verse that I learned from the Bible as a young child...

Thanks for listening.

Yours,
Rosemary

TatTvamAsi
27 July 2011, 03:50 PM
Is there anything wrong with being Christian?


That's like asking is there anything wrong in being a terrorist or genocidal maniac?

The only difference would be fact that Christians have caused more damage and harm world over than all of the terrorists and genocidal maniacs combined.

Being part of an ideology that makes people suffer (hell) and bullying them into conversion either through force, subterfuge, or inducements in an effort to destroy their self-esteem, pride in their culture and homeland, and of course, their native religion, is engaging in cultural and physical terrorism. That is what Christianity is. The simple fact that they proselytize makes it an ideology that should be outlawed and relegated to the distant memory of history. Same is true of all Abrahamic ideologies.

I always love to see the Christian apologists who say, "But they're not REAL Christians! They're not following that corpse on a stick, I mean, Jesus."

Do you think Hitler also had some great qualities and that we should only focus on them? He was vegetarian. He was a great artist. So if you just concentrate on these good qualities of Hitler, you'll see what a "nice" person he was! :rolleyes:

TatTvamAsi
27 July 2011, 04:28 PM
There is some irony here, the biblical text have always remained worthless, but suddenly when Hindu swamis start brining their own ideas into it, they start to become more popular among spiritually inclined and liberal people. Similarly, trancendentalists have taken ideas from Hinduism to make the Bible look interesting. It is clear then, that the cause of the positivity is Hinduism and that the Bible itself is irrelevant nonsense.

Excellently stated!

UniversalLove
27 July 2011, 04:31 PM
Thank you for your opinion, but I am actually not Christian anymore. Not necessarily because of what's been said, but because I just don't feel it is the right one for me.

I started this thread a few weeks ago, so it doesn't really matter anymore...

UniversalLove
27 July 2011, 04:58 PM
And for the record, even as a Christian, conversion (evangelism), the doctrine of eternal hell, intolerance of other faiths, the violence of the Bible, etc. never interested me at all. I was looking for more of a mystical, spiritual aspect, but I could never find one in my position. I didn't enjoy being judged for the parts of my previous faith that I didn't actually believe in.

Even as a Christian, I was seeking God. And I have been exploring faiths to see which one REALLY is my own, personal fit, and my heart is actually leaning toward Hinduism.

However, I don't think it is right to group all Christians together; that is the heart of this thread, the point I am trying to make. Because there certainly are (and were) remarkable Christians out there.
I understand that a lot of people on HDF may have had bad experiences with Christians. Even I had those. There have been Christians in my life who told me I am going to hell and there have been Christians who tried to deceive me.
But there are also very kind, loving, and devoted Christians.

If Sanatana Dharma truly teaches that the Self is in everyone, then shouldn't we recognize It in everyone, including people who are unkind?

So I think there is good in everyone, regardless of religion.
That's all I'm trying to say. :)

Adhvagat
27 July 2011, 05:57 PM
ILoveGod, but that's not the point, it's not about grouping them or generalizing.

The problem is the philosophical core of Christianity that leaves space for adharma. That philosophical core was molded FOR adharma. Across history it motivated adharma.

Should we ignore the very basis of the problem (the dangerous exclusivist philosophy) just because there are kind people in a certain religious segment?

There's potency for good in everyone, but not everyone practices it. We cannot use monism ideals to absolve a criminal from his sentence, the world would not function properly like this.

UniversalLove
27 July 2011, 06:17 PM
ILoveGod, but that's not the point, it's not about grouping them or generalizing.

The problem is the philosophical core of Christianity that leaves space for adharma. That philosophical core was molded FOR adharma. Across history it motivated adharma.

Should we ignore the very basis of the problem (the dangerous exclusivist philosophy) just because there are kind people in a certain religious segment?

There's potency for good in everyone, but not everyone practices it. We cannot use monism ideals to absolve a criminal from his sentence, the world would not function properly like this.

That's a good point..

RosemaryOs
27 July 2011, 07:01 PM
Well, to me, the fact that there is so much hostility towards Christians as a whole makes me think that there is a polarization going on. In my mind that is as adharmic as it gets!!

I am totally surprised and taken aback by the attitude towards Christians being spewed out here. Totally. I would never talk about Hindus this way. In fact, I have actually defended the Hindu religion to my friends and family---and against the greatest odds.

So, since we are talking from experience here, let me say that my experience with the Hindus which I have encountered in my life has gone like this: that it is a toss of the coin whether you are meeting a good one or a bad one. The good ones are very, very good, and the bad ones are very, very bad. That has been my experience and believe me, you don't want me to elaborate here on the bad ones. It isn't fit for publication.

Perhaps there are reasons for the hostility that are coming from personal perspectives but I'm not getting why the total rage.

As for me, I would never surrender to a Dharma as presented here by angry people.

kallol
28 July 2011, 01:42 PM
I appreciate your reply and agree with most of your points about reaching our goal. All except for this quote below. I'm not sure about this.

How can one feel devotion towards a messenger??

Dear Rosemary,

You had respected and loved your class teachers at every class. But did you stick to that class for the teacher ?

Answer is No. The reason was that your goal was the Knowledge and not the teacher. And this Knowledge required you to move from one class to another till you completed the study.

Even after completing you remember the teachers but are they your focus. Again No. The knowledge is what you use.

This goes for your question.

Dear Rosemary,

The personal experiences of people may impact your spiritually young mind. The state of your mind is yours. If you are happy with your experience be happy with it. The happiness and peace are the factors we look for through spiritual journey.

If you have some questions, for which you are seeking answers outside, then try to stick to that area. Put up the questions. Getting sucked into threads which are not making you happy should be avoided lest the state of your mind turns negetive.

The spiritually young mind needs protection just like a small fire needs protection from wind. When the mind matures, then it is like a raging fire where wind only fans it. You can visit any thread confidently thereafter.

Love and best wishes

Jainarayan
28 July 2011, 02:10 PM
I am totally surprised and taken aback by the attitude towards Christians being spewed out here. ...

Perhaps there are reasons for the hostility that are coming from personal perspectives but I'm not getting why the total rage.

In one way or another many of us have been wounded by Christianity. Many native born Indian Hindus, and those in the diaspora are wounded by what has been done (and is being done) to India in the name of Christianity and western civilization. Some are more vocal and vehement than others about it.

Myself: a western-born raised-Christian (nominally) convert to Hinduism because I've been wounded by elements of Christianity. Even though those elements are not the whole, they are enough to be used as representative of all of Christianity. I myself am not welcome in Christianity, but feel I am in Hinduism (but not by all). Am I running away from Christianity? Yes and no. Yes in putting it behind me because in retrospect I can't believe in its tenets. No in that I am drawn to the tenets of Sanatana Dharma.


As for me, I would never surrender to a Dharma as presented here by angry people.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word dharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma): "In the context of Hinduism (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Hinduism), it refers to one's personal obligations, calling (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/wiki/Vocation) and duties,[1] (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/#cite_note-0)".

Our dharma is no one else's, nor are we accountable to anyone but our God, whomever He or She is to us. As I said, I'm not recognized as Hindu by some elements; however, that's their problem, not mine. I am Hindu.

My dharma is to follow the path laid out before me, whatever it is, and to whatever end. But for me that path lies through Sanatana Dharma. Another person's dharma, personal duty, path, may be a different way.

TatTvamAsi
28 July 2011, 02:21 PM
Well, to me, the fact that there is so much hostility towards Christians as a whole makes me think that there is a polarization going on. In my mind that is as adharmic as it gets!!

I am totally surprised and taken aback by the attitude towards Christians being spewed out here. Totally. I would never talk about Hindus this way. In fact, I have actually defended the Hindu religion to my friends and family---and against the greatest odds.

So, since we are talking from experience here, let me say that my experience with the Hindus which I have encountered in my life has gone like this: that it is a toss of the coin whether you are meeting a good one or a bad one. The good ones are very, very good, and the bad ones are very, very bad. That has been my experience and believe me, you don't want me to elaborate here on the bad ones. It isn't fit for publication.

Perhaps there are reasons for the hostility that are coming from personal perspectives but I'm not getting why the total rage.

As for me, I would never surrender to a Dharma as presented here by angry people.

Of course you would be "surprised" by what Christianity actually is since westerners have this rosy image of it portrayed to them by the rat-media and worthless missionary/christian organizations.

Missonaries are terrorists. It is that simple. They have caused the destruction of more cultures probably only rivaled by Islamic conquests. This terrorism continues to this day and nothing is being done about it because vermin from around the world, especially from the west, keep feeding the missionary/terrorist outfits under the guise of humanitarian aid and "saving" others.

If you care about Hinduism at all, read Breaking India by Rajiv Malhotra and Aravindan Neelakandan.

And, you've "defended Hinduism"? For what? Have Hindus gone around the US destroying people's lives, forcing them to convert and denigrating their culture? Please, label one instance of such a thing. Hindus don't NEED to be defended. It is highly disingenuous of you to state such a thing.

Abrahamic ideology is dangerous and quite harmful to humanity. Their history is ample proof.

Christianity, bolstered by the enormous funding it receives, destroys other cultures and has especially done so in India. There are Christian terrorists in north-eastern India called the NLFT. Read about them. They go door to door in villages and threaten the Hindu tribals to convert to Christianity with AK-47s. Of course, you will never hear about that on CNN anytime soon. And, some idiots in the west think CNN is liberal! Oh, the irony! In fact, what you will hear is only the retaliation of Hindus after constant suffering at the hands of Christian terrorists (missionaries) labeling them (Hindus) as the aggressors and "Hindu fundamentalists". In fact, that's exactly what you're doing here, albeit subtly.

Eastern Mind
28 July 2011, 02:26 PM
I am totally surprised and taken aback by the attitude towards Christians being spewed out here.

Vannakkam Rosemary: I remember being taken aback the same way for the first month or so I started posting here. I've considered leaving a few times because of this hatred you speak of. It shows its ugly head at times here, and all over the planet. This hatred is not unique to Hinduism or to this forum. There are websites devoted to this type of thing from race, to religion, to ethnicity. Its part of the age we live in.

So why do I come back? Amidst this chaotic hatred that comes up on occasion is deep wisdom, and deep questions from sincere seekers. It is duty to seek the wisdom of the wise, and do our best to advise the youth and sincere seekers, the newcomers to SD.

The rest of the stuff ... well, you have the ignore button, virtually, or in your head .."in one ear and out the other" .

No one said this place would have a single viewpoint on anything. I hope you stick around asking questions, but of course that is entirely up to you. Surely not all of the answers you have received spew hatred.

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

TatTvamAsi
28 July 2011, 02:32 PM
Our dharma is no one else's, nor are we accountable to anyone but our God

"Our dharma" is called svadharma in Hinduism. That is different from rAStra-dharma which is Dharma related to the country/nation. There are umpteen types of Dharma and one cannot bury one's head into one form and forget the rest.

It would behoove you to read more about this instead of stating things as matter of fact, when in reality, they are erroneous.

Some basic types of dharma:

1.) Svadharma - Dharma arising from VarnASramA
2.) Vyaktidharma - Dharma to/of the individual
3.) Paravarika Dharma - Dharma to/of the family
4.) Samaja Dharma - Dharma to/of the society
5.) Rashtra Dharma - Dharma to/of the nation
6.) Manava Dharma - Dharma to/of mankind
7.) Apad Dharma - Dharma in abnormal situations like war or being attacked by adharmic forces!

Hindus need to invoke this 'Apad' Dharma to smash and annihilate asurAs like the Abrahamics and all anti-Indians/anti-Hindus. Whether that is done online, in person, or on a political level, it still needs everyone to act according to that which preserves; aka DHARMA!

TatTvamAsi
28 July 2011, 02:38 PM
Vannakkam Rosemary: I remember being taken aback the same way for the first month or so I started posting here. I've considered leaving a few times because of this hatred you speak of. It shows its ugly head at times here, and all over the planet. This hatred is not unique to Hinduism or to this forum. There are websites devoted to this type of thing from race, to religion, to ethnicity. Its part of the age we live in.

So why do I come back? Amidst this chaotic hatred that comes up on occasion is deep wisdom, and deep questions from sincere seekers. It is duty to seek the wisdom of the wise, and do our best to advise the youth and sincere seekers, the newcomers to SD.

The rest of the stuff ... well, you have the ignore button, virtually, or in your head .."in one ear and out the other" .

No one said this place would have a single viewpoint on anything. I hope you stick around asking questions, but of course that is entirely up to you. Surely not all of the answers you have received spew hatred.

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

EM,

I find it highly dubious that you would call admonishment of missionaries and the proselytizing attitude of Abrahamics as "hatred". I guess you simply cannot relate to the reality that Indian Hindus face on a daily basis?

So what is your position on missionary activity in India and elsewhere? They should be free to go around and destroy families, cultures, and native religions willy nilly?

It is also strange that no westerner on HDF, except BryonMorrigan, has publicly taken exception with missionary activity. How come? What do you guys really think of the missionaries? That they are truly "helping" poor people?

It is sad that you would stoop to such a low level to call those who question and admonish cultural terrorists as hateful.

Jainarayan
28 July 2011, 02:44 PM
"Our dharma" is called svadharma in Hinduism. That is different from rAStra-dharma which is Dharma related to the country/nation. There are umpteen types of Dharma and one cannot bury one's head into one form and forget the rest.

It would behoove you to read more about this instead of stating things as matter of fact, when in reality, they are erroneous.

Some basic types of dharma:

1.) Svadharma - Dharma arising from VarnASramA
2.) Vyaktidharma - Dharma to/of the individual
3.) Paravarika Dharma - Dharma to/of the family
4.) Samaja Dharma - Dharma to/of the society
5.) Rashtra Dharma - Dharma to/of the nation
6.) Manava Dharma - Dharma to/of mankind
7.) Apad Dharma - Dharma in abnormal situations like war or being attacked by adharmic forces!

Hindus need to invoke this 'Apad' Dharma to smash and annihilate asurAs like the Abrahamics and all anti-Indians/anti-Hindus. Whether that is done online, in person, or on a political level, it still needs everyone to act according to that which preserves; aka DHARMA!

I wasn't speaking about anything other than personal dharma, to someone (else) who doesn't understand.

It's clear I'm never going to do or say anything right in your estimation, not that I owe you anything, so I suggest you just put me on ignore. You've been nasty, rude and sarastic to me from the beginning.

Eastern Mind
28 July 2011, 02:50 PM
deleted

NayaSurya
28 July 2011, 02:51 PM
Not even a year ago Rosemary...not even one year has passed since I uncovered a Native Indian/former Hindu on this forum...a christian missionary questioning Hindu scripture.

You know what tipped his hand? It was his story about his daughter in a prayer circle at the airport.

See, they were flying over to Haiti to help those "Poor people" and that morning I was so taken back by this bold conversation.

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5564&highlight=haiti

Here is where I finally could not stand his deception a moment longer-
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=56310&postcount=115

Truth was he had went to haiti himself and abroad to convert with missionaries.

Go back and look on this forum at how many Native Hindu and we others...these stragglers from other sundry locations have dealt with them.

It's insidious behaviours such as this that warrant the attitude you are seeing.

TBTL! I was very impressed by your post! Yes, some have certain Dharma, and these Dharma allow for one to be strong and fight off bad things happening.

So you are very right to tell her.

Many times when one comes from christian or pagan background and come here they think karma is something very very different from what it is....and it is important for everyone to know that in SD there are peacefull renuciates and mighty soldiers and all of them working within the wondrous laws of Sanatana Dharma.<3

NayaSurya
28 July 2011, 02:53 PM
Hey, Pssst?

EM? others here...do not listen to the Beloved angry angry man please. He can not help his anger. He is also still Beloved. Only you can change how you react to it?

We know how deeply you care about protecting Beloved India, and SD for this whole world will fall without this Truth.

You have nothing to prove<3

Jainarayan
28 July 2011, 03:00 PM
TBTL! I was very impressed by your post! Yes, some have certain Dharma, and these Dharma allow for one to be strong and fight off bad things happening.

So you are very right to tell her.

Thank you. You underscore what EM said, that this is largely a helpful and kind place, despite some elements and comments that would drive non-Indians off the site.


Many times when one comes from christian or pagan background and come here they think karma is something very very different from what it is....and it is important for everyone to know that in SD there are peacefull renuciates and mighty soldiers and all of them working within the wondrous laws of Sanatana Dharma.<3

It's a learning process. Some people, well-intended and ill-intended, forget that. Not everyone is gifted to be born into a particular culture or faith, or hereditary profession, or "old money".

There are those of us who have to learn, and we keep learning. That's why, while Sri Krishna is my Ishta-deva, I have Maa Saraswati as my avi. She is my patroness and inspiration for learning, be it music or Sanatana Dharma. Some of us are like puppies... a puppy learns by positive reinforcement, not by whipping it until its spirit is broken and it won't come near you.

Adhvagat
28 July 2011, 04:50 PM
Well, to me, the fact that there is so much hostility towards Christians as a whole makes me think that there is a polarization going on. In my mind that is as adharmic as it gets!!

I am totally surprised and taken aback by the attitude towards Christians being spewed out here. Totally. I would never talk about Hindus this way. In fact, I have actually defended the Hindu religion to my friends and family---and against the greatest odds.

So, since we are talking from experience here, let me say that my experience with the Hindus which I have encountered in my life has gone like this: that it is a toss of the coin whether you are meeting a good one or a bad one. The good ones are very, very good, and the bad ones are very, very bad. That has been my experience and believe me, you don't want me to elaborate here on the bad ones. It isn't fit for publication.

Perhaps there are reasons for the hostility that are coming from personal perspectives but I'm not getting why the total rage.

As for me, I would never surrender to a Dharma as presented here by angry people.

Firstly, how could you talk about Hindus this way? Hindus never proselytized the way Christians did. Hindus never went on rampage conquering lands, massacring people? Christianity was always on the side of these things either directly or indirectly.

When one criticizes Christianity one is criticizing only that! We need enough objectivity to properly understand the criticism. And sometimes when we mix philosophical questionings with personal feelings objectivity can be lost.

Let's use an example:

Someone says: "Christianity is a danger to the world because of its view that Earth is by right of men" (or any other statement reproving it for that matter).

A person could have two viewpoints on it:

One would consider the philosophical and theological roots of it in Abrahamic religions, look at history and see that indeed the Abrahamic world view is harming the world.

Another would think of his auntie, a very meek person, Christian, always do good to others. How can you say that Christianity is monstrous?! That's absurd!

I even fit in this second example, I have an aunt that is Christian, a very good person. She's not a missionary converting people through deceit. Christianity was the path that she had access in this life and that's it.

When someone criticizes a flaw in the core of Christian philosophy and theology, usually a flaw that already has ample proof of the damage it can cause to others in the name of a false religiosity, one is not saying that the good Christians that we know are in fact wolves in sheeps clothing, the ones that had any inclination for it could, and the big picture is the world keeps suffering in the name of a false construct of religiosity.

My path started at looking at the Bible and realizing how schizophrenic it was. At one part, metaphors of humility and love of God, on other stoning adulterers! How come? I started learning about history, the arbitrary changes it went through, the beginning of the catholic church. And then I saw how the book of Apocalypse says almsot the same thing as the final canto of Bhagavatam. I started to see the bigger picture. The more I familiarized myself with the concepts of Dharma, the more I could see them twisted behind other spiritual lines.

Just look at how Sanatana Dharma (and other Eastern spiritual practices) are captivating the west. No conversion needed, just the thirst for real spiritual knowledge.

It's a double-edged subject! My point is that sometimes the boldness of somone is badly perceived because a certain subject is too touchy to be talked about in such a manner, even though this boldness is welcomed after clarifications are made.

UniversalLove
28 July 2011, 05:27 PM
Just a comment about the missionary work discussed right now:

I feel very bad that there are Christian missionaries out there with the underlying motive only to convert others to their religion.

Like I said before, even when I was Christian, conversion was never really a value of mine.
Everyone has different views of the Divine and the world, and I wholeheartedly respect that. Nobody has to believe the same way I personally do.

And I am in full support of keeping the sanctity of pure Sanatana Dharma (keeping it from other religious influences) and in support of India.
I hope to visit there someday.

UniversalLove
28 July 2011, 05:32 PM
Just look at how Sanatana Dharma (and other Eastern spiritual practices) are captivating the west. No conversion needed, just the thirst for real spiritual knowledge.

Well said. I can see how this thirst for real spiritual knowledge is captivating the West.

It has captivated me, as well, and still is. :)
That is what lead me very recently to just break the labels and remember the wonderful truth that I, like everyone else, am part of God, and to simply drink of the wells of spiritual knowledge. I realize that is the true quest of humanity, and that's what I'm striving for.

A beautiful story that I read on the forums this morning was definitely a big drink. :)

charitra
28 July 2011, 07:01 PM
I feel very bad that there are Christian missionaries out there with the underlying motive only to convert others to their religion.

Just ban and stop conversions in poorer lands, within a week all the charirities fold shop and leave. It is a 100&#37; EVENGELISM going on there. Muslims have insulated themselves well with draconian apostacy laws, it is the hindu and buddhist lands going through the humilation for their tolerant constitutions. The poor and gullible are given rice and penicillin and were cajoled and tricked to put a cross in their homes, after sometime they are forced to remove the images of hindu deities. South Korea is a glaring example, within 60 yrs an almost buddhist land has been completely evangelized now. In Indian Northeast the hindus live in fear and are subjected to persecution by baptist militants.Every bit of those laws are violently and shamelessly exploited by white missionaries, from Australia to America. This is the main reason why hindus hate whites.

NayaSurya
28 July 2011, 07:12 PM
Charitra, also we must add to this another serious threat to Hindu and Dharma, which is converted, Native Indians. Just look at the fact that as a white person...you almost immediately could become wary of us...but your neighbors are not as suspect.

I have read pages and pages online speaking of how missionaries rely on these indigenous peoples to propagate within their own families and communities.

But, so everyone is clear here. America is full of converted ones such as this...my own family forced conversion in an attempt to prevent them from being forced to march on the trail of tears from Hopkinsville KY.

Had it not been for an Irish family "Buying" my gg grandmother with cows...I would not be here.

This country, America is a window into the future of other countries facing such conversion. I don't even know how to speak the language of this incarnation's ancestors...or anything of their religion.

All because of xtian conversion of my family.

You will not find a greater friend than me and those like me...whom truly know how it feels to have your country overrun by outsiders...and their lesser religion.

devotee
28 July 2011, 08:59 PM
Dear all,

Let's stop wasting our time over such mindless arguments. Those who are proselytizing are not on this forum and they are not listening to whatever we say. So, what is the fun in criticizing people who are not there ?

We have to get answers of many questions that trouble us & those answers are in Scriptures and within us. So, let's read scriptures, meditate and indulge in Satsanga. These arguments are not going to prove anything except creating bad blood.

OM

UniversalLove
28 July 2011, 09:24 PM
Dear all,

Let's stop wasting our time over such mindless arguments. Those who are proselytizing are not on this forum and they are not listening to whatever we say. So, what is the fun in criticizing people who are not there ?

We have to get answers of many questions that trouble us & those answers are in Scriptures and within us. So, let's read scriptures, meditate and indulge in Satsanga. These arguments are not going to prove anything except creating bad blood.

OM

I agree.

kallol
29 July 2011, 11:50 PM
Dear all,

Let's stop wasting our time over such mindless arguments. Those who are proselytizing are not on this forum and they are not listening to whatever we say. So, what is the fun in criticizing people who are not there ?

We have to get answers of many questions that trouble us & those answers are in Scriptures and within us. So, let's read scriptures, meditate and indulge in Satsanga. These arguments are not going to prove anything except creating bad blood.

OM


:iagree:

Love and best wishes

RosemaryOs
30 July 2011, 07:41 AM
I would just like to say before moving on that this thread has been a real eye opener for me. The message here is loud and clear. Truly, I had no idea of how the missionaries have offended and insulted the Indian race and culture. I see it now.

However, if you do not like missionaries, I would like to just say that the anger should be directed at them and them alone. Insulting the Chrisitian Diety is not such a good idea and this is what I object to.

My home in America is placed in the confluence of two rivers, one named for the native Indian tribe that was living here and the other being named for the a river in England by English Colonists. In a vivid dream I once saw Swami Vivekananda standing on the banks of the English River and his face was turned to the West.

(It is the revealing threads like these that help my vision of Vivekananda to become unlayered.)

On a final note, it is my understanding that the invisible Saraswati flows beneath the Ganges and the Yamuna which meet at the confluence in Allahabad. Perhaps there are people here who will understand what I am trying to say.

Peace.

UniversalLove
30 July 2011, 10:37 AM
I would just like to say before moving on that this thread has been a real eye opener for me. The message here is loud and clear. Truly, I had no idea of how the missionaries have offended and insulted the Indian race and culture. I see it now.

However, if you do not like missionaries, I would like to just say that the anger should be directed at them and them alone. Insulting the Chrisitian Diety is not such a good idea and this is what I object to.

Namaste RosemaryOs,

It has opened my eyes, too, in many ways. And I agree with keeping tolerance with Christians themselves. :) And I think we should forgive people who do bad things to us in general.

sanjaya
02 August 2011, 10:56 AM
I would just like to say before moving on that this thread has been a real eye opener for me. The message here is loud and clear. Truly, I had no idea of how the missionaries have offended and insulted the Indian race and culture. I see it now.

However, if you do not like missionaries, I would like to just say that the anger should be directed at them and them alone. Insulting the Chrisitian Diety is not such a good idea and this is what I object to.

There's only one God, and I would never insult him. I do have to say that I find the Christian conception of God to be a gross misportrayal, dangerous, and responsible for missionaries. I do agree though that insults in general are not productive.

Now as far as distributing blame goes, let's remember that missionaries don't operate in a vacuum. They are funded by their churches, which are populated by Christians who believe in missionary work because of a poorly conceived notion that Hindus are going to hell if we don't convert. This belief must be challenged, and Christians should be asked to stop funding missionaries, I feel.


Namaste RosemaryOs,

It has opened my eyes, too, in many ways. And I agree with keeping tolerance with Christians themselves. :) And I think we should forgive people who do bad things to us in general.

If I may go out on a limb here, I think that the Christian concept of forgiveness is only emphasized because the idea of blood vengeance features so prominently in the Bible. Now, if such a concept exists in Hinduism, I've never heard of it. Personally I'm not out to get any vengeance/justice against missionaries, at least not beyond deportation from India. Really, I think most of us here would be happy enough if Christian missionaries stayed in the West and didn't attempt to convert any Hindus.

kallol
02 August 2011, 11:12 AM
The fight is political mostly and hardly spiritual.

At spiritual level, SD is sitting pretty comfortably.

At political levels, it is vested interests and dirty game. It is hatred filled and game of money.

We are not enough equipped to fight at the political level in this forum.

Of course at spiritual level we are confident to give a bloody nose.

So which level we are trying to fight here. If it is political level, then who are the opponents - I see no one. :(

If spiritual level - then also I see no one. :(

So it is all on our side we are fighting amongst. :(

Love and best wishes

Ganeshprasad
02 August 2011, 11:41 AM
Pranam

It is dangerous to pretend or assume like an ostrich that there is no danger.
no matter what level one is in from the lowest to the highest, facts can not be ignored.
time and again the invaders were defeated in the history of india, but they were freed on the ground of mercy (real kstriya dharma was ignored) thus one day they conquered us.

if we pretend to see no evil, the evil will consume us

Jai Shree Krishna

Eastern Mind
02 August 2011, 01:54 PM
Vannakkam: In my personal experience, the already converted Indian Christian is the most dangerous. Maybe a long time back, like 2 or 3 generations the western missionaries were involved. But now its the Indians themselves. Driving through Tamil Nadu and seeing all the small churches all over the place was disheartening. But I never saw a single white pastor.

Here in my city, when I go to a Tamil cultural association program like a Bharata Natyam recital, I get the 'hate' stare from the Christian Tamils. It actually pleases me. You see, thirty years ago they thought they had it made. The Tamil Hindus were beginning to gain interest and many even started going to church with the reasoning, "At least its something religious." The somewhere out of the blue (actually I know exactly what happened but that's another story) came Ganesha and Ganesha worship. At first the Christian Tamils complained, "Oh you're dividing the community!" But the ten good men, Hindus all, ignored that, and kept on. Eventually a temple was built, and many were saved from going over to the duality system called Christianity.

I still get the 'hate' stares. I'm not well liked by some. I like it.

There is also my friend the Malayalam Christian store owner who for years lied to my face whenever I asked to put up an announcement about the temple. "Oh yes, I will put it up for you." One day I even brought him some tape, and said, "You have a moment now.here's some tape." He didn't budge. Of course he never put it up ... ever. Yet the Sikh and Ammadiya owned stores had no problem at all.

So although there may still be some funding from the west going on, the hard work is done by the Indian pastors. I think its time we as Hindus did more return proseltysing and worked on bringing these poor souls back to their real calling: Sanatana Dharma.

Aum Namasivaya

RosemaryOs
02 August 2011, 06:11 PM
Thanks, EM, very interesting. You certainly have your feet on the ground.

I told my Mother about this conversation and she said, "Well, the Bible says to 'Go ye therefore and teach all nations.' And she was right about that teaching.

Then, I started thinking about the "Vedanta movement" in the West. Is that not the same as proselytizing? It's the same meaning, I think.

Also, if we are so hated, then why are so many, many Hindus moving to the States? It seems to me that eventually the Hindus will be absorbed into our culture and ways. What if the American Hindus absorb the Christian religion the way the African-Americans did in the last few centuries? (Don't mess with the African American Christian religion!! They are very, very strong in their beliefs--still, this religion was not native to their culture in Africa and I do not perceive that many of them are interested in any religious return to their "roots")

Perhaps it is rather the point that the Christian missionaries are perceived as using an insincere offer of "help" and "money" in order to gain souls. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think that the motives are coming across as insincere at best, and opportunist at worst.

This would be a rather patronizing approach and is no doubt very insulting. I can see it.

My opinion.

Namaste

Adhvagat
02 August 2011, 07:06 PM
Err...


It seems to me that eventually the Hindus will be absorbed into our culture and ways.

I sincerely hope NOT.

What exactly does the west propagates? Meat eating? Nature plundering? Conquering through violence? Western values are materialistic values.

Why would a Hindu absorb Christianity/Western values when all of it is philosophically inferior to their own tradition? There's no need for that. If Hindus did that one day was because westerners did all in their power to hurt Hindus's self-steem. Being a Hindu (or truely Eastern philosophically) is MUCH MORE than a religion, it's a way of life that starts in the deepest core values of a person.

Westerners can only come to a point where they start praising the east (and we can see that looking at the work of great philosophers, the best they can do is reach Vedanta's feet). The truth is in the east, there's no doubt about that.

We also need to understand that being in some place does not mean becoming the place. A Hindu may be in the west for financial reasons, that does not mean he will become a person of western values. Just like a westerner will not become Hindu for travelling to India.

Eastern Mind
02 August 2011, 07:10 PM
Vannakkam Rosemary: I don't think the Vedanta Missions ever really proseltysed in the same way that some Christian sects go door to door or buy TV time. But I could be wrong, often am.

I do remember an event at our temple here when a swami was speaking. There was a Christian (I think she was someone's wife, I can't really remember why she was there) whom I began discussing things with. She was asking questions and this idea of proseltysing came up. I mentioned that we generally (with one notable exception) don't. She got quite upset with me and said, "That's exactly what He (referring to the swami) was doing. "

I was flabbergasted, and had nothing to say. This was a Hindu swami in a Hindu temple speaking to Hindus. It would be the same as me accusing a Baptist preacher speaking to Baptists in a Baptist Church or proseltysing. Utter nonsense. Proseltysing connotes an intent to coerce into conversion.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
02 August 2011, 07:17 PM
What if the American Hindus absorb the Christian religion the way the African-Americans did in the last few centuries? (Don't mess with the African American Christian religion!!

Vannakkam Rosemary: I understand what you mean but I don't think 'absorb' is the right word. It may happen to a few Hindus but not many, as the religion is allowed to exist in America, and can ber seen in the over 1000 temples here now. Hindus come educated whilst Africans came enslaved. I think there's a huge difference. Of course some of the 'culture' is great to absorb. Its not all Christianity and capitalist greed! I say we should take the best of the east, and the best of the west.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
02 August 2011, 07:34 PM
Namaste Rosemary,


Also, if we are so hated, then why are so many, many Hindus moving to the States? It seems to me that eventually the Hindus will be absorbed into our culture and ways. What if the American Hindus absorb the Christian religion the way the African-Americans did in the last few centuries?

People move all over the globe for different reasons irrespective of religion: economic, family ties, many reasons. Some Hindus may become fully westernized, even abandoning their culture and faiths. But not all.

It's a rare Greek, Italian, Latino, Russian or Pole who abandons Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, or abandons the "old ways" even in the US. Latinos have been in the US for decades, and if anything, Latino culture is blossoming, not fading or being absorbed. So, old cultures and traditions die hard. I think it highly unlikely that Indian-born Hindus will readily convert to Christianity.

The comparison of African Americans and Christianity v. American Hindus and Christianity is not a valid one. Hindus who migrate to the US and convert to Christianity do so of their own free will. African Americans, having been slaves and having had Christianity forced upon them had no such choice. Two hundred years later, it's an ingrained faith and way of life.

BryonMorrigan
02 August 2011, 09:01 PM
Vannakkam Rosemary: I don't think the Vedanta Missions ever really proseltysed in the same way that some Christian sects go door to door or buy TV time.

Even ISKCON has never been so bold as to act with even the tiniest percentage of coercion, hatred, and trickery used by Christian missionaries. Indeed, the entire world-view of this tiny minority that engages in "Hindu Proselytism" is completely different from Christian proselytism...which starts from the assumption that the other person's religion is "evil" and "false," and then seeks to replace it with a belief system based on division and fear of "Hell."

I actually wrote extensively on the differences between such world-views, and how Christianity (and Islam) are incapable of coexisting with other religions in a pluralist society...unless they change from their doctrine of Exclusivism...which is probably one of the most "evil" concepts ever devised by Man. You can read it on Mohanty's blog: http://www.vmohanty.com/2011/biblical-monotheism-and-religious-pluralism/

BryonMorrigan
02 August 2011, 09:04 PM
The comparison of African Americans and Christianity v. American Hindus and Christianity is not a valid one. Hindus who migrate to the US and convert to Christianity do so of their own free will. African Americans, having been slaves and having had Christianity forced upon them had no such choice. Two hundred years later, it's an ingrained faith and way of life.

...and even then, after the brutal destruction of African American culture and religion...many traditional African practices and beliefs live on in Voudou, Santeria, and other Christian/African syncretic religions. But to compare American Hindus to the evils waged by Christian slavery? Hogwash.

RosemaryOs
02 August 2011, 09:44 PM
...and even then, after the brutal destruction of African American culture and religion...many traditional African practices and beliefs live on in Voudou, Santeria, and other Christian/African syncretic religions. But to compare American Hindus to the evils waged by Christian slavery? Hogwash.

That isn't what I said. I said that the religion has been absorbed into the race. We didn't force it, not even a little bit. Try to tell an African American that Chrisitianity was forced or coerced. I don't think I can hear any of them admitting to that concept...

For them, Christianity is a good thing, not an evil being perpetrated on them. There is a difference.

Arjuni
02 August 2011, 09:50 PM
Namasté, all,

I think now the thread is reaching the heart of the 'hostility' that some newcomers have noticed on coming to HDF: an anger against the spread of Christianity via Christian missionary activity, which Hindus abroad rightfully recognise as a threat to their culture and society, and which we experience even on this board from time to time as well.

I once thought of missionaries as well-meaning, though sorely misguided, souls who at least were trying to serve others based on the commands of their religious faith. And while it is true that there are some well-meaning, starry-eyed people who take part in this activity because they feel called to "spread the Good Word" worldwide, it is also true that conversion is a business, and a horrifically unscrupulous one at that.

A Vedanta teacher may come to the West and say, I'd like to tell you about this truth of the universe, this way of thinking and exploring that will change your life. A Westerner may say, No thank you, I already have my way of life, I have no wish to learn yours. The Vedanta teacher will move on. There are no penalties in Sanātana Dharma for being different.

The missionary may also say, I'd like to tell you about this truth of the universe, the story of God and his Son that will change your life. But an Easterner who tries to begin with, No thank you, I already have my way of life-- will face several insidious hooks. At its simplest physical level, the missionary may hold badly-needed food, medicine, or other help without which the individual or his family will be in dire straits. On a spiritual level, and more terrifying - especially to a person suffering hunger or pain - is the threat of hell. The penalty for not being Christian is eternal damnation, and the missionary does not have a problem implying to a sick or hungry person that his/her misery will be eternal and never-ending if s/he doesn't accept Jesus. And by its very nature, this fearful conversion is a domino effect that innately destroys families and homes; what mother wants her children to burn, what husband wants to enjoy heaven with his wife in hell, etc., on and on.

If Christians wish to have their word accepted and embraced on the same level as Vedanta beginning in the 1960s and '70s, to take the earlier example, then let them approach others and give without any ego inserted into the mix. Let them offer their word, and allow questions and decisions from healthy, sound-minded folks who are in a position to consider and argue. But this equal positioning may be impossible because there is inherent stratification built into Christian proselytizing: You cannot have an equal discussion with someone when you believe that you enjoy the Creator's grace and they do not. You cannot help but pity - and look down upon - someone when you believe that they are ignorant, misguided, and doomed.

The problem is not that Christianity is different. The problem is that it's a religion which believes in not only confronting this difference, but turning it into an argument that must have a winning and losing side. "I'm right, you're wrong" is something we all think from time to time, because of the ego, but ego is not an acceptable basis for a religion. No individual has the right to decide another's path to God. It's astounding how many Westerners would (rightfully) be appalled if a stranger came into their lives and started changing their décor, rethinking their wardrobes, sabotaging their careers, deciding their dating partner(s), or dictating their family relationships...but believe it's perfectly okay to send people halfway around the world to decide the fates of others' souls, and even donate money towards this "cause"!

One can believe in God, Jesus, the Trinity, the saints, any or all of these without being a part of the Organisation, the Church. Once a person claims the name "Christian" or the more specific title "Catholic," "Baptist," or whatever denomination, one implicitly agrees with and supports the policies, activities, and decisions of that organisation. Perhaps this is one reason we here on HDF bristle when a new member announces to us that s/he is "Christian": because we don't read this word as simply, "I believe in Jesus"; for us on this board, and for many in India, it often signifies, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I'm here to tell you why!"

Fortunately, though small comfort this, life-altering decisions made via coercion, fear, and panic sometimes don't stick, cultures and traditions die hard in people's minds and hearts...and the example provided of the slaves is actually an interesting one. Black Americans in the South often belong to churches which have a communal ecstatic, mystical, and expressive quality that is far more in keeping with traditional African religion than any widespread practices in Christianity, and some are converting to Afro-Caribbean faiths to embrace practices more in keeping with their ancestors' ways. At least after the horrors of slavery, they are finally free to do so, either way.

But Christian missionaries, in some places, are taking away the free choice of Indians and forcing them into conversions - whether via the trickery of staged "miracles," the implied threat of withheld aid, or the direct point of an AK-47 - and it amazes me is that any religion would claim these actions as "godly" or support them in any way.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

BryonMorrigan
02 August 2011, 11:18 PM
That isn't what I said. I said that the religion has been absorbed into the race. We didn't force it, not even a little bit. Try to tell an African American that Chrisitianity was forced or coerced. I don't think I can hear any of them admitting to that concept...

If you seriously believe that...then you are completely ignorant of American history in regards to slavery. It saddens me that the educational system has let you down so significantly. I suppose you think the Native Americans converted willingly as well. Perhaps you even think, like the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer (http://wonkette.com/437399/bryan-fischer-native-americans), that the Native Americans deserved to be forcefully converted and/or wiped off the face of the Earth, because they, "lacked morals."

"Didn't force it"! LOL. "Not even a little bit!" LMAO. Yes, those Christian slave owners were just the pinnacle of moral behavior. They forced people into slavery...raped them...murdered them...split up families...destroyed their cultures...but forced them to convert to Christianity? Why! Heavens no! They would NEVER do such a thing! For Pete's sake...

Please buy a history book. Please. I'm begging you...


For them, Christianity is a good thing, not an evil being perpetrated on them. There is a difference.

And yes, after a couple hundred years of enslavement and forced conversion, people tend to "go with the flow." Most modern Germans are Christians, and don't think Christianity is "evil," but that doesn't mean that the 4,000 German chieftains who were beheaded by Charlemagne for refusing to convert to Christianity never died. It doesn't mean that the Northern Crusade never happened, or that the Christian Emperor Theodosius I never executed people for daring to worship the Roman Gods. The illogic of your thinking is astounding.

RosemaryOs
02 August 2011, 11:39 PM
Dear Indraneela,

You have stated the case very clearly and beautifully.

Being a Christian is no more than a karmic factor for me. I am more attracted to Hinduism-- and more specifically to Vedanta. In my heart of hearts, I am probably a natural Hindu-- yet I learned very much about God from my Christian upbringing. Do I reject that learning? Not altogether.

There is a reason (in my mind) for how we are placed.

Should Swami Vivekananda (or one like him) come to me and say (as he did to Nivedita) totally dedicate yourself to India and to Sanatana Dharma and remake yourself as Indian, I would do it.

But I have never received that message in my heart by any means, intuitive or otherwise.

Thanks so much for your input. Your post has given me teaching.

Yours sincerely,
Rosemary

RosemaryOs
03 August 2011, 07:03 AM
Just a quick reply to you, Bryan. I don't like being put on the defensive, but you ought to know to whom you are talking. I know a bit about history, especially history in my own Southern state.

Hinduism is probably the same as Christianity in this respect--- that it is what is in the heart that counts. In my hometown in the 1830's there lived a freed slave who became the largest slaveowner in the County. It was said of him that he treated his 163 slaves neither better nor worse than his white counterparts.

From "Blacks in Colonial America" by Oscar Reiss:

http://books.google.com/books?id=quwi6J7GZ6wC&pg=PA133&dq=john+carruthers+stanly&as_brr=3&ei=pLOtR-3oDJXaygTx6-SSDA&sig=YwTwfW_rkOp9-QuuHlLBxvPOhHI#v=onepage&q=john%20carruthers%20stanly&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=quwi6J7GZ6wC&pg=PA133&dq=john+carruthers+stanly&as_brr=3&ei=pLOtR-3oDJXaygTx6-SSDA&sig=YwTwfW_rkOp9-QuuHlLBxvPOhHI#v=onepage&q=john&#37;20carruthers%20stanly&f=false)

wundermonk
03 August 2011, 07:53 AM
Sorry to all the Christian posters here or those who still have some Christianity in them as they are exploring Hinduism. There really is no reason why, if you convert to Christianity, you cannot convert to Islam. The theology is not that different between you guys...both of you worship the same God, both of you claim that previous messages were corrupted and hence your God had to end up correcting these messages by sending newer prophets. If you accept Jesus as a prophet, there is no reason I can see why you cannot accept old Mo as the prophet. Both of you believe infidels are going to burn in hell. Keep in mind that Islam has had 700 fewer years than Christianity to wreak havoc on this planet. Christian blood thirst is probably even more than those of the Arabs and the Turks. The God of the OT/NT is as vicious and hatemongering as Allah. So, can you all please convert to Islam so that Hinduism doesnt have to fight both of you guys at the same time? The very same arguments that can be used to destroy Islam theologically are applicable to Christianity.

As I see it, there is going to be (if not already) a huge bloodbath in the offing between Xians and Muslies. This is already happening in parts of Egypt, Iraq and Africa. Hell, even in our backyard, Kerala, Muslims chopped the hands off a Christian professor for allegedly blaspheming old Mo.

Keep fighting about which of your Gods is the real God and which of your prophets is the one true prophet and who is/isnt a Son of God, etc.

wundermonk
03 August 2011, 08:08 AM
Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VrxOoeWFmc) an Indian Christian convert trying to defend the Bible against a Western deconvert. The irony of it all :D

As I see it, Christianity is completely losing its hold in the West. Here's (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/08/14/we-are-all-hindus-now.html) an old but refreshing story.

PS1: The end of the video is a parody, but the question is brilliant and accurate! I would love to know how Dinesh responded to the question but couldnt find it in Youtube.

PS2: Found Dinesh's evasive non-answer here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grHsK77JZDk).

Eastern Mind
03 August 2011, 08:15 AM
Vannakkam Rosemary et al: For me, the primary problem of mix and match (religions) is the potential of confusion. Its not so much about the misdeeds of the past or ongoing conflict, or holding resentment, or who can be the most insulting.

Its about each separate individual despite religion, and their progression on the path back to merger with God. Confusion just can't help, and there are several areas of mind that may lead to it. Here are a couple.

ahimsa ... in SD, it is primary, in Abrahamic, although there is a 'Thou shall not kill" commandment, it isn't interpreted the same way as in SD. So meat eating and aggressive wars are allowed more easily that in SD.

afterlife ... its either reincarnation, or a heaven/hell choice. Not believing one or the other fully puts you in this back and forth mess of confusion.

why things happen to us ... in SD its karma, in Abrahamics as far as I know its just some idea of luck or coincidence or misfortune

nature of God ... in SD its a whole lot, (primal soul, causal, etc) but always always loving ... in Abrahamics it can be wrathful ("God will get you for that."

Now I may well be wrong in some of the Abrahamic stuff because fortunately I never was exposed to it much, but still the main point is the problem of confusion. Once you start digging into the mind (the process of reflection in SD) you will find stuff you have but may not know you have that simply isn't true, and your own intuitive knowledge will absolutely verify it. Inner truths are discovered independently by each individual, and then confirmed by scripture.

Aum Namasivaya

BryonMorrigan
03 August 2011, 09:02 AM
Just a quick reply to you, Bryan. I don't like being put on the defensive, but you ought to know to whom you are talking. I know a bit about history, especially history in my own Southern state.

...and if you're gonna go there, you ought to know that I have a Master's Degree in History...


Hinduism is probably the same as Christianity in this respect--- that it is what is in the heart that counts. In my hometown in the 1830's there lived a freed slave who became the largest slaveowner in the County. It was said of him that he treated his 163 slaves neither better nor worse than his white counterparts.

From "Blacks in Colonial America" by Oscar Reiss:

http://books.google.com/books?id=quwi6J7GZ6wC&pg=PA133&dq=john+carruthers+stanly&as_brr=3&ei=pLOtR-3oDJXaygTx6-SSDA&sig=YwTwfW_rkOp9-QuuHlLBxvPOhHI#v=onepage&q=john%20carruthers%20stanly&f=false

What...exactly...does this have to do with anything? Yeah, after a few centuries of being slaves themselves, some African-Americans fully committed to emulating their white slaveowners. This is relevant...how?

Jainarayan
03 August 2011, 10:19 AM
...and even then, after the brutal destruction of African American culture and religion...many traditional African practices and beliefs live on in Voudou, Santeria, and other Christian/African syncretic religions. But to compare American Hindus to the evils waged by Christian slavery? Hogwash.

Agreed. There is a huge population of Hindus in the New York/New Jersey area. Here's a list of temples just in this area (http://www.garamchai.com/templesNJNY.htm).

Hinduism is thriving here. Where I am going to go to temple is building a brand new temple (http://www.guruvayurappantemple.org/) (you may want to turn off or lower your sound if at work, though the chanting is nice).

Yes, Santeria and Voudou among others do live on. Ironically there's a good many Caribbean Latinos who practice these religions. Consider the mixing of the European Spanish, African slaves in the Caribbean and the native peoples.

And further, when these groups migrate to the States, they don't abandon their religions. Even in northern New Jersey you find an abundance of botanicas, which cater to these practices. Instead of disappearing, they are flourishing.

I was raised Roman Catholic, made First Holy Communion and Confirmation, attended Sunday School; at 23 years old I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and left church attendance about 20 years ago.

So what's the point? In 28 years (after I started my Sunday School) of being a church-going, guilt-ridden Christian, I don't ever recall seeing an Indian-born, or American-born Indian in any of the churches I attended. Zero Indians in any Christian church I attended in 28 years.

It's the Christians who are cherry-picking what they want to believe. "Cafeteria Catholicism". The Eastern/Western Great Schism, anathemas and excommunications, fusions of this Christian belief and that Christian belief.

Christianity is a religion not a way of life. I hold out a lot of hope for Hindus holding onto their Hinduness because Hinduism is a way of life.

UniversalLove
03 August 2011, 03:53 PM
Namaste,

I recognize that this thread is becoming very heated, and I would just like to say again that the point of this thread was to please ask not to generalize and group all Christians together. I know very kind, loving, and Christ-like Christians, including in my own family and relatives. So I feel it is very offensive and unkind to say things like you can't be a good person and a Christian at the same time or that there is nothing good in the Christian faith and values.

On the other hand, I have learned a lot about myself as this thread has been going on. I have found out about myself that my heart leans more toward Eastern spirituality.
I admire how Sanatana Dharma encourages you to use your own feelings and intuition. That's very good.



Once you start digging into the mind (the process of reflection in SD) you will find stuff you have but may not know you have that simply isn't true, and your own intuitive knowledge will absolutely verify it. Inner truths are discovered independently by each individual, and then confirmed by scripture.

Namaste EM, I just wanted to say that I like what you said right here. That is definitely true for myself from experience and what has helped me along my path toward recognizing God. :)

Adhvagat
03 August 2011, 07:03 PM
What...exactly...does this have to do with anything? Yeah, after a few centuries of being slaves themselves, some African-Americans fully committed to emulating their white slaveowners. This is relevant...how?

If we connect the dots, we could conclude that she's saying that if Hindus had the same power as Christians they would kill, convert, torture and explore the rest of the world just like them? :p


Namaste,

I recognize that this thread is becoming very heated, and I would just like to say again that the point of this thread was to please ask not to generalize and group all Christians together. I know very kind, loving, and Christ-like Christians, including in my own family and relatives. So I feel it is very offensive and unkind to say things like you can't be a good person and a Christian at the same time or that there is nothing good in the Christian faith and values.

On the other hand, I have learned a lot about myself as this thread has been going on. I have found out about myself that my heart leans more toward Eastern spirituality.
I admire how Sanatana Dharma encourages you to use your own feelings and intuition. That's very good.

I didn't see anyone doing what you said. I only saw Bryon stating historical facts about the atrocities done by Christians, things we should never forget or speak through euphemisms.

Or perhaps should we hide history in order to turn Christians into the good guys? They're the villains, their religion is the false religion if we look at distortions, modifications, agenda in the use of their "religion" in the course of history. There's no nice way to put it, reality sometimes is blunt, specially when the perpetrator did its best to hide in sheep's clothing.

UniversalLove
03 August 2011, 07:40 PM
Deleted

RosemaryOs
03 August 2011, 09:38 PM
I've made my point and don't want to explain it anymore. I LOVE GOD, I do not get why you keep apologizing. Vivekananda says we are lions not lambs. Make your roar!!

Adhvagat
03 August 2011, 10:45 PM
A lion is not afraid to speak the truth, he will not care about what society thinks of him.

The aim here is not to speak rosy words but to have a sharp critical view of life. At least that's where I'm personally headed. You need a sharp logos to navigate swiftly in this world of falsehood.

It's not easy to criticize Christianity in the west because it is the status quo. If we are not aware of the errors of the past we're bound to repeat them at the future. The foundation of an institution or a philosophical line is relevant as to whether we accept it or not, if this institution or line is followed by good people or not it is not relevant. That's my previously stressed point, it may sound harsh, but we need to take a step back through our so needed logos.

I don't want to force this stance as the truth, that's my stance. I'm happy that others stress different points so I can always question if I'm being excessively unilateral.

UniversalLove
04 August 2011, 03:37 AM
What you said is understandable.


Thank you all one last time for your thoughts. :)

This is my final word on this.

And I'm sorry if anything I have said is offensive in any way.

satay
04 August 2011, 07:46 PM
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