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satay
22 July 2011, 01:03 AM
Namaste,
I have been wondering about this for a few weeks now...thought to share and get your comments.

Does God 'know' about or is aware of or can experience suffering, pain, darkness? If God is all good and infinite, beyond good and evil, I suspect he has no clue about 'suffering'. If he has no clue about suffering, he cannot possibly understand anyone's prayers asking him to eliminate their suffering.

Since he can't experience pain and suffering, he cannot be empathatic to jiva i.e. he cannot relate to our suffering and pain that we experience in this world. No?

What do you think?

Arjuni
22 July 2011, 01:23 AM
Namasté,

My first reaction to your phrasing was to beware ever assuming that God 'cannot' do anything. ;)

Is it important, though, that God empathize with our pain or that he know how it feels? It's almost greater if God has no idea and helps us anyway - if he is beyond all of this and yet still reaches out to us to help us transcend it. It is like a man who rescues a drowning person from a river and then vanishes; he did not need to know how it felt to drown to know that pulling a victim from the water was the right thing to do, a deed that needed no thanks or credit.

And must pain and suffering be experienced to be empathized with? A doctor who helps a woman through childbirth surely knows the suffering he witnesses - intellectually if not through his own direct experience - but he also has the certain knowledge that it is temporary. He knows that if he is strong, pure-minded and firm, he may help the woman endure the suffering and, through it, experience a new and wonderful joy.

Just a few ruminations on this interesting question you've raised.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

wundermonk
22 July 2011, 03:13 AM
As I think about it, this is indeed the HARD problem of religion ~ why does an omni-benevolent/scient/potent God allow evil/suffering in the world? Christianity/Islam have come up with many theodicies to explain this but many fall short.

To summarize the Abrahamic position on this (before addressing the Hindu position as I understand it): What we humans perceive as evil is actually good according to some divine standard we humans are unaware of. Abrahamics also do not allow reincarnation to allow evil and justice to play itself out over multiple lives. If Christians saw Hitler in heaven, they will probably be dumbstruck and suffer from unimaginable levels of cognitive dissonance about their non-comprehensibility of their own God. By what standard of justice could Hitler have made it to heaven?

The Hindu position on this as I understand it:

(1)AFAIK, the Vedas/Upanishads do not mention an omnibenevolent Brahman. So, the problem of evil doesnt apply to Brahman. I could be wrong here and would appreciate correction if I am. Possibly, the Bhakti schools of thought do perceive Brahman to be omnibenevolent.
(2)According to Advaita, there is no such thing as evil or good. Pure consciousness is beyond all these subjective notions. What is good according to one human is bad according to another.
(3)Karma/souls/Brahman/Prakriti have been eternally existing in cycles of creation and dissolution. So, Brahman did NOT create evil. Evil has been eternally existing. The Karma created from good and evil have been playing out since eternity and one cannot blame Brahman for having created the "first" evil because in an infinite eternal set of cycles, there never was a "first" cycle.

nitinsharma
22 July 2011, 03:22 AM
Sometimes,I get really pi**ed off thinking about such things,only one answer comes to mind:
God Hates Us All.

Later I come back to my senses,realize:
If only we knew.......

Onkara
22 July 2011, 03:39 AM
namasté

Our awareness and senses are like an arrow pointed outwards towards the world.

O -----> world

When all is going well in the world our awareness and senses remain focused outwards on our bodily pleasure, people, enjoyable events, food, fun, friends, health etc.

O ------> :-)

But when suffering enters in the world, such as our body is in pain, or we see people suffer, or the enjoyable events turn sour then we become aware of our self and our mind starts to look "inwards" to itself for answers.

O <<-------> :-(

At this point the arrow of awareness begins to reflect back on its source and we begin to think of "God" and the reason for existence; why our pleasure can turn to pain. The source has always been "God", in that as divine existence it has never changed.

It is only when awareness starts looking inward that we find that "God" knew both our suffering and our pleasure all along and we have never been separated.

All doubt about "God" arises whilst awareness is turned outward towards the world and we 'forget' our true nature. Some say this is why suffering exists, so that it turns us to "God".

The more we turn towards "God" the more we will come to know that "God" is there always, never changing, like a silent parent who watches the children learn from their follies of play. Sooner or later life gives us a hard knock, and like a child we remember to turn and seek comfort in "God's" embrace.

devotee
22 July 2011, 05:17 AM
Namaste Satay,



Does God 'know' about or is aware of or can experience suffering, pain, darkness? If God is all good and infinite, beyond good and evil, I suspect he has no clue about 'suffering'. If he has no clue about suffering, he cannot possibly understand anyone's prayers asking him to eliminate their suffering.

Since he can't experience pain and suffering, he cannot be empathatic to jiva i.e. he cannot relate to our suffering and pain that we experience in this world. No?


The God is the third state of Brahman which is undifferentiated mass of consciousness. This state is the origin and end of all beings (in the first two states) and this state is the Lord of all beings. This state is blissful ... it enjoys bliss from its mouth of consciousness.

Therefore, being undifferentiated mass of consciousness ... it has to be omniscient & aware of everything whatever is happening to us. The problem in understanding this theory is that we try to bring the concept of God as some sort of being that we have seen or have thought. God which can be really imagined cannot be God at all because we are trying to bring the Infinite into something finite ... because we cannot think of anything which can be really an Infinite undifferentiated mass of Consciousness which also has the mind which is trying to conceptualise God. It is like a drop of water in the Ocean is trying to conceptualise the whole of the Ocean with all its majesty. The Ocean very well know what it means being an individual water-drop.

So, have no doubt. God knows very well our intensity of sufferings and there is a law of Karma which has to work it out ... but God is not limited to boundaries of Laws of Karmas ... His grace can alleviate the sufferings caused by our own Karma and can even take us out of this dreaded cycles of joys and pains. But do we see God ? We are so much obsessed with our sufferings to have our mind fixed on God !

OM

Mana
22 July 2011, 05:40 AM
Namast&#233; Satay, All

I think that God feels at most the pain of all.

After all what is pain? Friction against growth no matter what the scale.

Gravity?

Whether a galaxy a whirlpool or a repetitive thought or action. Can you imagine having the growing pains of the whole of Brahman to contend with?

Pain exists on every level it is from this that we grow. Joy is the natural counter without which vRtti would not turn.

There is <3 something rather special at its centre.


Aum shri ganeshaya namah.


Mana

NayaSurya
22 July 2011, 06:43 AM
Already every goodly post has been made above and I doubt this will even be necessary with such full answers, but here goes<3

My mother always say my one true gift was to be able to feel another's pain or feelings. I can always do this with others, to put myself in their shoes. But Beloved is some Big Shoes!:p

But from this incarnation and my experience with my own Beloved Children I say yes....He is We...each of us giving back a full picture of existence to Beloved.

But more than this, Beloved sees something we can not because we are not yet realized to be who We really are....He sees We are always fine...no suffering really happening.

As a child who had a bad dream and we come to them and say....shhh it is just a bad dream Beloved One...please do not worry.

Lastnight my son almost die on his meal, eat a huge lump of roll....he swallowed and turned blue....and in that moment I grab his rigid body up and thrust him till the roll popped out half chewed. As his face turned back pink he reach for me and began to cry...such a hug I never receive from my child before...one of complete surrender. Made me also cry.

A near fire in our microwave due to a malfunctioning microwave popcorn topped our day off.

(I was told of some transit in Saturn yesterday...and all day bad things tried to happen. But I just wouldn't let it. I have also been told my Saturn is ridiculously high and that it actually acts like a benefic so perhaps this is why I was there to put all the fires out yesterday.)

Through all of this Beloved watched through me and the other Beloved Portions I have the honor of serving...and through it all the drama play out...

But from Beloved's side....all of this doesn't look so dangerous or severe because through this all...even if my own son had died in my arms....We are still absolutely 100&#37; whole and well.


Whenever in my life bad things happen...I put my hand out and say...Beloved I am in Your Beloved Hand...and I give this to you. I withdrawl from the reaction I once had.

We can not be truly harmed ever!

As a strong parent Beloved allows this drama to unfold, as He know this so fully...

I do feel if it become too much, and we begin to withdrawl...this is an indication to Him that we no longer wish to be a part of this experience.

I think this only happen when we have burned our karma sufficiently that the Truth can begin to unfold...

Sometimes I do say..."Beloved I know this seem okay from your side...but from this side it is pretty crappy...and if you truly wanted to experience what being isolated is...well then I think we already got the situation fully understood.":p

But, as a mother may say ..."do not go into the street" and the child does not understand the why so they think the situation is less than ideal to not have this ease of situation...But the older child understands and even repeat this rule because they know the cause of such things. I do concede to all things I experience. Knowing that there is always a good reason and I trust Beloved to keep those rules until I am able to fully understand.

Ekoham
22 July 2011, 08:43 AM
Namaste Satay,

The two birds in Naya Surya's post explain very clearly answers to all your questions, from advaitin as well as Dvait POV. I will wait for Yajvanji or Atanuji or Ganesh Prasadji to answer your question as they are very good in explaining with profound knowledge of scriptures.

Rgds

Ekoham

Eastern Mind
22 July 2011, 09:05 AM
Vannakkam: What is suffering? I tend to lean towards it being varying degrees of the SCHOOL of hard knocks.

On the God side, I believe Siva knows, but its part of himself, the Dance.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
22 July 2011, 10:16 AM
Does God 'know' about or is aware of or can experience suffering, pain, darkness?

If God is all good and infinite, beyond good and evil, I suspect he has no clue about 'suffering'. If he has no clue about suffering, he cannot possibly understand anyone's prayers asking him to eliminate their suffering.

Since he can't experience pain and suffering, he cannot be empathatic to jiva i.e. he cannot relate to our suffering and pain that we experience in this world. No?

What do you think?

I think the manifest God can know what pain and suffering, and joy are and experience them. Just look at the stories of the devas and devis. They have a lot of human-like qualities. Lord Krishna tried to stop the war between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. So He must have felt remorse and compassion for what He knew was coming.

God is things we don't understand. God must know what goes on in the universe(s) and why. So I think knowing and experiencing wrt unmanifest God are two different things.


As I think about it, this is indeed the HARD problem of religion ~ why does an omni-benevolent/scient/potent God allow evil/suffering in the world? Christianity/Islam have come up with many theodicies to explain this but many fall short.

The Christian position, at least of the RCC and EOC is that when God gave man free will, God promised to keep hands-off and let the chips fall where they may, based on man's choice(s). I've seen it written somewhere called "the pact". Since man chose to disobey God, God told man he's on his own now, but as a show of good faith he would send a redeemer.

Do I believe all this? Of course not. That's why I'm not Christian, Jewish or Muslim.


If Christians saw Hitler in heaven, they will probably be dumbstruck and suffer from unimaginable levels of cognitive dissonance about their non-comprehensibility of their own God. By what standard of justice could Hitler have made it to heaven?

The Christian position is that if even on one's deathbead, that person genuinely repents and accepts God, he will be saved. As far as those souls in Heaven having a myocardial infarction over seeing Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al in Heaven, it's a non-issue. Their position is that God is the only judge and has judged. The only emotion is one of bliss at being in the presence of and united with God, there is no other feeling. What I bolded is the only thing I can think of that comes anywhere near to our belief in moksha.

Again, this is the teaching of the RCC and EOC (and probably Anglican), not my beliefs. I don't know about Protestant denominations. So don't shoot the messenger. :p

Obelisk
22 July 2011, 10:53 AM
Namaste,

This issue was actually one of the first reasons why I started searching and came upon HDF last year, as I had asked in this (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6451) post of mine.

Agreed with the above posts, especially that by wundermonk ji. Not only do I think that whatever happens is due to our own karma, but that nothing is inherently good or evil - those are mostly just labels applied on events by people, according to their own perspective. I remember a story from my school days, where a man soundly sleeping in his house at night is badly injured by a single brick falling from the old ceiling of his house. While being taken away to the hospital, he grumbles and wonders why he was having to undergo such physical and mental suffering. In the wee hours of the morning, the entire roof collapsed - he's have been killed if he was still in his bed. Could the first instance be called good, or bad? Food for thought. :)

Also, I feel that all the "Why did God let <insert painful incident> happen?" questions rely on the assumption that God is an entity separate from us, that He is like a third party watching everything from the sky. Not only do I believe that it all comes down to karma, but I feel God is always there with us, within us at every moment. :)

Ganeshprasad
22 July 2011, 11:11 AM
Pranam Satay


Namaste,
I have been wondering about this for a few weeks now...thought to share and get your comments.

Does God 'know' about or is aware of or can experience suffering, pain, darkness? If God is all good and infinite, beyond good and evil, I suspect he has no clue about 'suffering'. If he has no clue about suffering, he cannot possibly understand anyone's prayers asking him to eliminate their suffering.

Since he can't experience pain and suffering, he cannot be empathatic to jiva i.e. he cannot relate to our suffering and pain that we experience in this world. No?

What do you think?

If he is not aware then he can't be called omniscient.

what i think does not matter, let us see what Lord Krishna says;

mam upetya punar janma
duhkhalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanah
samsiddhim paramam gatah

After attaining Me the great souls never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection. (8.15)

There is no question he does not know suffering or he can't mitigate devotee's prayers.

Jai Shre Krishna

yajvan
22 July 2011, 12:14 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;

this suffering is a very human thing. The wise say pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Why would this be? If we look at this, pain is of the body, suffering is of the mind. We can consider suffering a level of torment on the mind.
If the mind is reduced to ashes ( via one's spiritual pursuit) then where can suffering reside ? How can a fire ignite if there is no place for it to exist?

So now the question... what is the purpose of this suffering? First lets ask, is there anything that is in this world that does not have a use , a purpose ? Even pain. Pain tells the ~user~ you are going in the wrong direction. I put my hand in fire and get burned - pain says this is some thing you do not want to do again.

So the question - what is the purpose of suffering or mental agony ?

praṇām

Adhvagat
22 July 2011, 02:37 PM
Namaste,

This issue was actually one of the first reasons why I started searching and came upon HDF last year, as I had asked in this (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6451) post of mine.

Agreed with the above posts, especially that by wundermonk ji. Not only do I think that whatever happens is due to our own karma, but that nothing is inherently good or evil - those are mostly just labels applied on events by people, according to their own perspective. I remember a story from my school days, where a man soundly sleeping in his house at night is badly injured by a single brick falling from the old ceiling of his house. While being taken away to the hospital, he grumbles and wonders why he was having to undergo such physical and mental suffering. In the wee hours of the morning, the entire roof collapsed - he's have been killed if he was still in his bed. Could the first instance be called good, or bad? Food for thought. :)

Also, I feel that all the "Why did God let <insert painful incident> happen?" questions rely on the assumption that God is an entity separate from us, that He is like a third party watching everything from the sky. Not only do I believe that it all comes down to karma, but I feel God is always there with us, within us at every moment. :)

Ok, but that's the optimistic story, it's "easy" to see God in it. With some people the hospital ceiling would collapse, and there would be no escape...

Seeing God in that version is the tricky part, I presume. :p

It just shows how we're so partial about God. Perhaps our departure is the right order of things. It will be good for everyone, it will promote growth for our relatives. But our suffering towards death is always egoistical.

From the little suffering I incurred in this life regarding loss, all I could observe was that I wanted to enjoy more the presence of the person. The person's suffering meant next to nothing to my mine.

It's when I start to delve mentally into these subjects that I see that the sages, the holy men, are the ones that really love us all. They are offering us a chance to overcome this all, oferring us the only real solution. Dedicating a life to this is the ultimate proof of love. They are truly great souls and for that I stand in awe.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;

this suffering is a very human thing. The wise say pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Why would this be? If we look at this, pain is of the body, suffering is of the mind. We can consider suffering a level of torment on the mind.
If the mind is reduced to ashes ( via one's spiritual pursuit) then where can suffering reside ? How can a fire ignite if there is no place for it to exist?

So now the question... what is the purpose of this suffering? First lets ask, is there anything that is in this world that does not have a use , a purpose ? Even pain. Pain tells the ~user~ you are going in the wrong direction. I put my hand in fire and get burned - pain says this is some thing you do not want to do again.

So the question - what is the purpose of suffering or mental agony ?

praṇām


Very wise, thank you Yajvan.

Ganeshprasad
22 July 2011, 04:56 PM
Pranam

Another incidence comes to mind on the subject of suffering, Mother Kunta,
When Lord Krishna was leaving for Dwarka
He said O deer Aunt Please receive a boon from me. I am here to fulfil your wishes.

Kuntaji said give me suffering during each step of my life, Lord Shree Krishna answered, O Dear aunt People in the world beg for pleasures in their life, but you have begged for suffering! Why?
O Keshava! Your remembrance is far more during times of suffering than in the days of pleasure and happiness. I want never to forget you!

Jai Shree Krishna

satay
23 July 2011, 02:04 AM
Namaste,
Thank you all for the feedback. My question is not about suffering but about nature of god. If god is all things that are good he cannot know about things that are not good.

Lord Krishna says in gita that he is the goodness in all things. Thus my point is that god since he is only goodness he is not aware of things that are not good. Or so it seems logically?

Obelisk
23 July 2011, 07:51 AM
Ok, but that's the optimistic story, it's "easy" to see God in it. With some people the hospital ceiling would collapse, and there would be no escape...

Seeing God in that version is the tricky part, I presume. :p

Indeed. I wasn't offering the "it's all God's plan" explanation or anything, but just mentioning that it's a bit hard to definitively put everything in good and bad sections. :)

And I too really look upto our sages in these matters; they never cease to amaze me.

devotee
23 July 2011, 09:15 AM
Namaste satay,


My question is not about suffering but about nature of god. If god is all things that are good he cannot know about things that are not good.

Lord Krishna says in gita that he is the goodness in all things. Thus my point is that god since he is only goodness he is not aware of things that are not good. Or so it seems logically?

You have used a logical conclusion herein above which I have underlined and made in bold letters.

There is a catch when we apply logic. All logical process of drawing a conclusion starts with certain axioms. We are so much conditioned into living within the environment which take those axioms as the Truth that we are unable to see any possibility where these axioms don't hold good.

"God doesn't suffer and so he shouldn't be aware of "what suffering is like"" ..... this conclusion is based on our thinking that we cannot know the pain or joy of being in a situation unless experience it ourselves. This axiom is ok for our world but doesn't apply to God. Upanishad says, "Eshah Sarvajnah" .... He knows everything. Does He know the taste of a mango without tasting it ? Yes. Does He know how it feels when pricked by a pin without having any experience of being pricked with a pin ? Yes.

His "knowledge" is not based on "experience" or being told by someone ... as it happens to us. It is without any such conditions. He Knows ... & that is all. It is unconditional.

That has to be understood. And there lies the answer to your question.

OM

satay
23 July 2011, 11:30 AM
namaste devotee,
Your post actually hit the nail right on its head.
Thank you very much for this.


Upanishad says, "Eshah Sarvajnah" .... He knows everything. Does He know the taste of a mango without tasting it ? Yes. Does He know how it feels when pricked by a pin without having any experience of being pricked with a pin ? Yes.

His "knowledge" is not based on "experience" or being told by someone ... as it happens to us. It is without any such conditions. He Knows ... & that is all. It is unconditional.

That has to be understood. And there lies the answer to your question.

OM

Adhvagat
23 July 2011, 12:14 PM
A certain combination of external events may be perceived as bad, but that is only at the ego level, where we judge what is good or bad based on our personal limitations.

What's the point of something that is not God? That's illogical (criticize me Devotee... :)) when we consider the Advaita concept of God.

If God is the smallest and the largest, how can there be something that is not him? Specially when we understand that the very basis for existence itself, is God.

For me, the proper understanding of suffering should also deal with the subject of maya.

devotee
23 July 2011, 10:56 PM
A certain combination of external events may be perceived as bad, but that is only at the ego level, where we judge what is good or bad based on our personal limitations.

What's the point of something that is not God? That's illogical (criticize me Devotee... :)) when we consider the Advaita concept of God.

If God is the smallest and the largest, how can there be something that is not him? Specially when we understand that the very basis for existence itself, is God.

For me, the proper understanding of suffering should also deal with the subject of maya.

I was sort of expecting this question. I had the habit of reciting Bhagwad Gita to my mother when she was alive. While reciting and explaining chapter-10 of BG, she exclaimed :

When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??

It is easy to explain this from Advaita point of view. From Dvaita point of view, it would be difficult ... but I would like to see how other knowledgeable members resolve this issue.

OM

Ekoham
24 July 2011, 11:07 AM
Namaste Satay,

WRT your OP, few important points need to be pondered upon..

1. What is God, is he different than you, your true self? (Till the time person remains under the influence of Maya- he is Jiva who is always looking at Ishvara for all his problems and fulfillment of desires. As I mentioned about two birds of Naya Surya's post- I meant Jiva and Ishvara)

2. Suffering: What is the cause of suffering? Is it not desires?
The basic of Yoga is chitt-Vritti Nirodhah i.e. making the mind stable by observing it and not reacting, thereby achieving desire free state.
Take example of a self-realized person, what would he desire after realizing the truth-- nothing!
In the absence of desires will he have any sufferings? Of-course Not.

3. Is God only good? Again these are relative terms. When one looks at things from Jivas perspective things are good and bad, when everything is a creation of "God", can it be said, this creation of God is good but that is bad.
Good and bad are only for jivas, who is working under the influence of Maya, as for Ishvara who is beyond Maya/ Prakriti (hence three gunas), what can be good or bad?

4. Ishvara is Drashta/ witness to all things of Jiva, hence as a witness he knows everything (like taste of a mango or suffering of Jiva, who is begging for his mercy at all times). Now important question is "Does Ishvara reacts?"- Yes he does, that's how most of the desires of Jivas are fulfilled, (This is explained in Bhagavatam). It is the ignorance of Jiva who because of his ignorance considers himself as Doer (Karta)thereby faces the result of all those good and bad karmas, whereas truth is different (Explained in Bhagavad Gita Ch 3/ 27).

5. Devotee has quoted....
"When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??
Unquote

Namaste Devotee, a Jnani like you posting such question surprised me. As explained above there is nothing that is different than Vasudevah.

"Vasudevah (pure consciousness) sarvam iti" is the Truth and I am quiet sure you too don't have any doubt about it.
Only a person who is truly self-realized can have this view of "Sarvam Khalvidam Brahmam" which is explained by Lord Krishna as "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra..........".

What is the true sign of a self-realized person "There is no difference of any kind that remains between him and others, he sees the expansion of his true self everywhere thus he sees himself only".

Similarly a true devotee of Lord when attains the true grace of the lord and sees him within, he sees the lord everywhere because "Vasudevah sarvam iti" thus Shloka from Bhagvad Gita Ch.6/30 holds good (Yo maam pashyati.....)

I am not good at writing so pardon me for my mistakes and hope the point I wish to convey is understood.

Pranam

Ekoham

devotee
24 July 2011, 12:07 PM
5. Devotee has quoted....
"When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??
Unquote

Namaste Devotee, a Jnani like you posting such question surprised me. As explained above there is nothing that is different than Vasudevah.

"Vasudevah (pure consciousness) sarvam iti" is the Truth and I am quiet sure you too don't have any doubt about it.
Only a person who is truly self-realized can have this view of "Sarvam Khalvidam Brahmam" which is explained by Lord Krishna as "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra..........".

What is the true sign of a self-realized person "There is no difference of any kind that remains between him and others, he sees the expansion of his true self everywhere thus he sees himself only".

Similarly a true devotee of Lord when attains the true grace of the lord and sees him within, he sees the lord everywhere because "Vasudevah sarvam iti" thus Shloka from Bhagvad Gita Ch.6/30 holds good (Yo maam pashyati.....)


Namaste Ekoham,

First of all, please let me clarify here : "I am not a Jnani". I am a very ordinary disciple on the path of Jnan-yoga. If any wrong notion is created due to some of my postings here ... let it be negated here once for all.

2nd, you have not understood the question. In chapter 10 of BG, Lord enumerates only those things which are the best ... the brighter/brightest side of this whole creation. He specifically mentions in verse 41 of chapter-10 :

"Whatever is there endowed with extraordinary glory, attractiveness and vigour, know all that to be born of a fragment of My power."

Why does he leave things which are not so bright i.e. not-so-good sort of ?
Are they not Vasudeva ? Are they anyway different from Vasudeva ? If they are not different ... why none of things that Lord names in Chapter-10 as another form of Him alone is inferior .... not-so-good ?

I am not seeking an answer here. That post was a rejoinder to post made by Pietro. Such questions are natural to arise. If it doesn't bother you there is no issue.

OM

NayaSurya
24 July 2011, 01:23 PM
Namaste Devotee, a Jnani like you posting such question surprised me. As explained above there is nothing that is different than Vasudevah.






I was sort of expecting this question. I had the habit of reciting Bhagwad Gita to my mother when she was alive. While reciting and explaining chapter-10 of BG, she exclaimed :

When He is all bright and shining, what is that is dark ? When He is all that Good alone then what is it that is bad ? If there is something different from Lord Krishna then how can it be said, "Vasudevah sarvam iti" (Everything is Vasudeva alone" (BG 7.19) & how can one have this outlook, "Yo maam pashyati sarvatra sarvam cha mayi pashyati" (BG 6.30) ??

Ekoham, Devotee Beloved Mother have this question and it's a good question for those who are still trying to figure out this portion of the Truth. Maybe she even ask just to make her Beloved Son think some more? Mother's always doing that to Beloved children<3

and to this question I try to answer in my simple way.

To the brilliant powerful light of a light house the tiny candle seem so dark...

To the good of a sunny day....the rainy may seem so bad?


But, to one in a deep cave....the candle's light become tremendous.

But to the parched earth, that rain is joyous, good blessing.

Only perspective change...to know this Truth.

satay
24 July 2011, 01:29 PM
namaste Eko,
I was thinking about the nature of God from dvaita point of view, specifically from Ramanuja school where Lord is separate from the jiva but jiva is dependent on the Lord. There is Lord, jiva and mateiral. Yet karma seems to be a separate entity existing eternally too. ?

I don't know exactly what the cause of suffering is. I have been thinking about this a lot too but I have almost come to the conclusion that suffering is due to our own actions i.e. karma. But where did the initial karma come from and got attached to jiva? I don't know. That's a mystery I suppose.

Is God only good? I don't know. Like Devotee said in BG Lord Krishna says he is the best of everything there is. He is the goodness in all things. So my question was then 'who' is the badness in all things? Is it Lord Krishna himself too? Maybe he is. Since upanishads say brahman is everything if taken literally it means brahman is then both evil and good, the best of the best yet worst of the worst too.

If God is only good then who does 'not good' belong too? Logically it must all belong to God if there is only one entity called God.


Namaste Satay,

WRT your OP, few important points need to be pondered upon..

Ekoham

charitra
24 July 2011, 03:46 PM
RE: Aham bramhasmi, tat tvam asi.
Stealth belief in Advaita doctrine takes the edge off of any suffering, especially if the mind gets anchored firmly in the realm of Brahman. One develops detachment through advaita much sooner. Whereas the Dvaita school though leads one out of the suffering one has to endure it a bit longer as one is mandated to take a circuitous route. One needs to first place suffering at the feet of ishta devata, just so to gain divine sanction for ones own resolve/ fortitude.
Per Vedas Brahman is both what is there and what is not there, the bad things and the resultant sufferings included, there is absolutely nothing beyond the realm of Brahman.
It is a matter of debate if s/he/it is responsible for the minute by minute actions of jivas. IMHO it is unlikely, ‘cause if it is so, then a part of his own, i.e. atman, dwelling in the jiva has no wiggle room to act. Without any independent thinking, just like all the robots /gadgets we create. Mind determines the course of our actions. They say atman and mind seem to be delinked, the latter evaporates along with body at the end of janma, on the other hand atman lives on and transcends into the next janma. Those who have atmans (stones and cars have none) have a serious responsibility to negotiate their earthly years with caution, after all they are the ones destined to merge with brahman, aren’t they. My 2 cents, Namaste.

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 06:51 PM
I 100% believe gods experience suffering. I am not lying to you. Next time you say your prayers know that gods feels and understands you. Gods are human before they are gods. Everyone that is put on this planet or reborn will have to experience suffering. A good example is Rama.

Iksvkave

satay
24 July 2011, 06:55 PM
namaste
iksvakave, I am not sure about that. God tells us in Gita that he is beyond guna thus he cannot be part of the 'suffering' realm. But thanks for the post though.


I 100% believe gods experience suffering. I am not lying to you. Next time you say your prayers know that gods feels and understands you. Gods are human before they are gods. Everyone that is put on this planet or reborn will have to experience suffering. A good example is Rama.

Iksvkave

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 07:08 PM
You might find it hard to believe this but gods experience suffering etc.
I said take for example Rama. His life was filled with obstacles and challenges. In the end did he do justice for his wife? He faught for wife only to lose her again.

Shiva's life is never portrayed as a pretty one. Listen to this song.
This one has the lyrics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxhlJdq9JA

Take for example story of vekateswara (vishnu). Lakshmi leaves him and comes to bhooloka.

Gods are still in a human body. If they look like you and me you can't say they can't feel any suffering.

You said, gita tells us he is beyond guna.

What is guna according to you?
Guna to me is qualities. Do you remember where you read this. I am intrigued.

Iksvakave

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 08:26 PM
Here is something I found about gunas of god.
~Names Meanings
Achala Still Lord
Achyuta Infallible Lord
Adbhutah Wonderful God
Adidev The Lord of the Lords
Aditya the Son of Aditi
Ajanma One Who Is Limitless and Endless
Ajaya the Conqueror of Life and Death
Akshara Indestructible Lord
Amrut One Who Is Sweet as Nectar
Anaadih One Who Is the First Cause
Anandsagar Compassionate Lord
Ananta the Endless Lord
Anantajit Ever Victorious Lord
Anaya One Who Has No Leader
Aniruddha One Who Cannot Be Obstructed
Aparajeet the Lord Who Cannot Be Defeated
Avyukta One Who Is As Clear As Crystal
Balgopal the Child Krishna, the All Attractive
Bali the Lord of Strength
Chaturbhuj Four-Armed Lord
Danavendra Granter of Boons
Dayalu Repository of Compassion
Dayanidhi the Compassionate Lord
Devadidev the God of the Gods
Devakinandan Son of Mother Devaki
Devesh Lord of the Lords
Dharmadhyaksha the Lord OF Dharma
Dwarkapati Lord of Dwarka
Gopal One Who Plays With the Cowherds, the Gopas
Gopalpriya Lover of Cowherds
Govinda One who pleases the Cows and the Nature.
Gyaneshwar the Lord of Knowledge
Hari the Lord of Nature
Hiranyagarbha the All Powerful Creator
Hrishikesh the Lord of All Senses
Jagadguru Preceptor of the Universe
Jagadisha Protector of All
Jagannath Lord of the Universe
Janardhana One Who Bestows Boons on One And All
Jayantah Conqueror of All Enemies
Jyotiraaditya the Resplendence of the Sun
Kamalnath the Lord of Goddess Lakshmi
Kamalnayan the Lord with Lotus Shaped Eyes
Kamsantak Slayer of Kamsa
Kanjalochana the Lotus-Eyed God
Keshava One Who Has Long, Black Matted Locks
Krishna Dark-Complexioned Lord
Lakshmikantam the Lord of Goddess Lakshmi
Lokadhyaksha Lord of All the Three Lokas (Worlds)
Madan the Lord of Love
Madhava Knowledge Filled God
Madhusudan Slayer of Demon Madhu
Mahendra Lord of Indra
Manmohan All Pleasing Lord
Manohar Beautiful Lord
Mayur the Lord Who Has A Peacock Feathered-Crest
Mohan All Attractive God
Murali the Flute Playing Lord
Murlidhar One Who Holds the Flute
Murlimanohar the Flute Playing God
Nandgopala the Son of Nand
Narayana the Refuge of Everyone
Niranjana the Unblemished Lord
Nirguna without Any Properties
Padmahasta One Who Has Hands like Lotus
Padmanabha the Lord Who Has a Lotus Shaped Navel
Parabrahmana the Supreme Absolute Truth
Paramatma Lord of All Beings
Parampurush Supreme Personality
Parthasarthi Charioteer of Partha - Arjuna
Prajapati Lord of All Creatures
Punyah Supremely Pure
Purshottam the Supreme Soul
Ravilochana One who's Eye Is the Sun
Sahasraakash Thousand-Eyed Lord
Sahasrajit One Who Vanquishes Thousands
Sahasrapaat Thousand-Footed Lord
Sakshi All Witnessing Lord
Sanatana the Eternal Lord
Sarvajana Omniscient Lord
Sarvapalaka Protector of All
Sarveshwar Lord of All Gods
Satyavachana One Who Speaks Only the Truth
Satyavrata the Truth Dedicated Lord
Shantah Peaceful Lord
Shreshta the Most Glorious Lord
Shrikanta Beautiful Lord
Shyam Dark-Complexioned Lord
Shyamsundara Lord of the Beautiful Evenings
Sudarshana Handsome Lord
Sumedha Intelligent Lord
Suresham Lord of All Demi-Gods
Swargapati Lord of Heavens
Trivikrama Conqueror of All the Three Worlds
Upendra Brother of Indra
Vaikunthanatha Lord of Vaikuntha, the Heavenly Abode
Vardhamaanah the Formless Lord
Vasudev All Prevailing Lord
Vishnu All Prevailing Lord
Vishwadakshinah Skilfull and Efficient Lord
Vishwakarma Creator of the Universe
Vishwamurti Form of the Entire Universe
Vishwarupa One Who Displays the Universal Form
Vishwatma Soul of the Universe
Vrishaparvaa Lord of Dharma
Yadavendra King of the Yadav Clan
Yogi the Supreme Master


Would you worship him if it said vishnu--- god who knows suffering? Shiva songs do talk about suffering. Vishnu's songs mostly about praise. Anyway, who wants to be with someone that also suffers? When you are worshipping you are looking for courage right? You want a god that understands. Do you want a god that is suffering with you or is uplifting you? I can tell you without a doubt in my mind he is closer to those who need him. Just as the way we are closer to people that need us in our lives.


Iksvakave

yajvan
24 July 2011, 08:39 PM
 
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


You might find it hard to believe this but gods experience suffering etc.
I said take for example Rama. His life was filled with obstacles and challenges. In the end did he do justice for his wife? He faught for wife only to lose her again.
I think you may be mis-taken...the Divine, the Supreme does not suffer.
The adyātma rāmāyaṇa ( bālakanda section ) informs us, rāmāḥ is the Supreme Self, distinct from prakṛti. He is the one all-comprehending Being who is pure bliss itself and Spirit Supreme over all entities. He is unaffected by māyā, says the 20th śloka.


This is where suffering resides within the realm of boundaries; rāmāḥ is beyond this... from where can He be part of any suffering ? The 24th śloka says the lotused-eyed Lord ( rāmāḥ ) is the witness to ignornace and not a victim of it.

praṇām

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 08:57 PM
I really don't know anything about scriptures but Rama does look like you and me right when he's on this earth. He is human. When you are in the human how can you not feel human desires, pain and attachment.

Why did shiva desire lakshmi during the churning of the ocean?
Why did vishnu dress like mohini (female character)?
Rama never for a second missed his wife when he was looking and fighting for her? There is also lakshman's relationship with Ram.
Why do they show hanuman is in rama's heart? What's hanuman's attachment to rama?
Why does krishna have two wives? Why is Krishna's love for radha more heard of?


How can a god who does not feel what a human feels understand a human? How can he be the compassionate god?

God is a supreme "being" in the end.

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 09:01 PM
Oh and why would sita jump in the fire if she didn't feel anything?

Iksvakave

yajvan
24 July 2011, 09:19 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Perhaps you may be missing the teaching that is being offered by these devatā-s ?

rāmāḥ walks not, he sits not. He sorrows not, He desires not, He abandons not. There is no trace of any activity in Him... adyātma rāmāyaṇa ( bālakanda, 43rd śloka )

praṇām

Adhvagat
24 July 2011, 09:34 PM
Is it right to say that God experiences suffering through us?

Aren't we a way of God perceiving himself? This lila is all about being incomplete to reach completeness once again.

devotee
24 July 2011, 10:22 PM
You got it all wrong, Iksvakve. God, by definition, doesn't suffer. Ramavatar and Krishnavatar are exceptional and knowing the vritti of these avatars is not easy. They apparently act for the sake of "loksangrah" but actually they don't participate in any act.

Rama & Krishna choose to act as human beings. They have a status of seemingly "doing" but actually "not-doing anything". There is a perception of apparent action of enjoyment and sufferings but the real Rama or Krishna is the Vast Ocean of blissful absolute peace and that remains undisturbed.

If you have known Rama as the prince who wailed and cried for his missing wife and Shiva who got angry over the death of her wife and tried to destroyed the whole creation, dear Iksvakave, you have a very long way to go. There is an illusion of happening when in reality nothing is happening. It is like a role played in a dream .... the dreamer-actor in the dream appears to suffer and enjoy but in reality .... he is not at all affected by anything that happens within the dream-world.

There is blissful Rama and wailing and crying Rama simultaneously in all of us. How many of us know the real Rama who is peaceful and blissful when we all identify with the Rama who is wailing, crying or rejoicing.

Look at NayaSurya's signature. There are two birds .... one is just a witness when the other one rejoices and cries. There are not two birds ... in reality there is only one .... but we see/perceive two .... and that is Maya ... and the root-cause of all our sufferings.

OM

satay
24 July 2011, 10:29 PM
namaste,


I really don't know anything about scriptures but


Well, this is a problem isn't it? I for one will go by what the scriptures say, no offence intended to you. When bhagwan says he is beyond guna I will take his word for it over yours.

Thanks,

iksvakave
24 July 2011, 10:42 PM
Namaste Satay,

I love the way you quoted me inspite of everything I wrote:
I really don't know anything about the scriptures but.....

Got to love this site. :)

You may take whose ever word you like.
I actually see a lot of Jnanam in what you just wrote.

Devotee,

You are right I probably have it all mixed up. I like what you wrote in the end. Maya --- the root cause of all of our suffering.



Iksvakave

grames
27 July 2011, 08:15 AM
Daer Satay,

What a question :). Great answers from different people and especially liked the ones from Devotee and obilisk. Also, devotee asked for Dvita view and Satay wants the VA view. I am attempting to share what i have understood...

TattvaVada:

There is no suffering for God, He is Sat-Chit-Aananda and yes He is beyond all the MATERIAL guna, that He controls, maintains and destroys at His own will. There is no on above or on par with Him so nothing can be forced on Him and anything that He wish to experience is solely for His own pleasure by His own desire. Does He know how it is to feel the pain, love etc. Surely cos He is master of these gunas and He is the reservoir of all the guna and interestingly reservoir of opposing characteristics too (as in love and hatred, grace and punishment, mega and mini etc. ). You can understand His nature in minute proportion as, He is the one Who keeps all the groceries that are available in the entire universe, and you are the one who makes the shopping list for your desired meal. This is the root cause of Karma and the "attachment" to the bodily desire is the cause of suffering. ( So, He surely knows you are "suffering" but He does not undergo what He is master of). I think an analogy of Doctor is already given to support that idea. Since, He is always not attached to anything He is master of, ( which is again very natural) He is always free from all these and thus eternally full and youth with no misery etc.


matra-sparsas tu kaunteya
sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah
agamapayino 'nityas
tams titiksasva bharata BG 2.4



And removal of this attachment is jiva's effort and when jiva desire to get rid of the attachment, God showers His grace as He is the witness, He is the one who fulfill the desire of the Jiva being the Antrayamin. So, fulfilling the jiva's desire as per the qualification of the jiva is His loving nature.


raga-dvesa-vimuktais tu
visayan indriyais caran
atma-vasyair vidheyatma
prasadam adhigacchati BG-2.64



The jivas which are sattvic, desire nothing other than the grace of God, and thus performs Karma with out attachment ( and He gives them the ability to perform duties with out attachment - Being the svaTantra and jivas being dependent on Him to perform anything). The other two type of Jivas ( Rajasic and tamasmic) never desire to get rid of this attachment and even for such jivas, He is the only source from where they get all their desires fulfilled but in the opposite, viz. rajasic may or may not seek the Lord and Tamasic oppose the Lord and His devotees.




VA:

VA concept is almost the same but there is no classification of the soul as in TattvaVada. NityaSoories are the ones who are always attached to Lord Vishnu and thus never experience any material pleasure or pain. ( There is no spritual pain or pleasure and spiritual platform is always Ananda - everlasting pleasure). Jivas, when lacks the knowledge of Bagavan and the relationship with Bagavan, experience His prakriti and undergoes pain and pleasure derived out of attachement. Once the Jiva turns towards Hari, by His grace the DharmaBoota Gnana expands and gets eligibility to experience Ananda. Thus, He has no material pleasure or pain but as the Master of Prakriti, He knows Her full and the effects.

SO, suffering is in fact not a Guna but actually an effect. A devotee with steadfast focus on Lord will not get disturbed by the effects of his current environment and when the devotee surrenders, He surely protects.

In theistic schools, it is not very logical to consider Lord as mere human who undergoes Samsara ( and thus believing He is just a human, or Lord in Human body etc. and undergoes material pleasure or pain. Since He is above all these, He is always in His eternal FORM which is spiritual with no tinge of any material contamination). When it is understood that HE is beyond all material guna, there is no scope for seeking whether He knows our suffering or not by the means of knowing it by experience. He knows it by His perfect knowledge about everything in full. The perfect Lord knows everything that we undergo because He is the one who is the cause, effect and as well as the solution. He is the begining, middle and END.

devotee
27 July 2011, 10:58 AM
Good explanation, Grames ! :)

... but you forgot one thing. What are those not-so-good things if those are not Vasudeva ?

OM

grames
27 July 2011, 11:06 AM
Dear Devotee,


There is no such thing are NOT_SO_GOOD thing :). It is totally based on how we view it. A bottle of rum may be NOT_SO_GOOD_THING for you but for someone else it will be really Good thing.

In case of poison, oo yaah... it is a medicine as well as killer. :) SO how we see it, how we use it, how it makes sense to us, all are the judges.

But, i am not sure if i have understood your question properly. So leaving it for a open

devotee
27 July 2011, 11:15 AM
It is a good reply, Grames & you get reputation points for that ! :)

However, what I point out to say that it is not that these not-so-good are decided to be such by anyone else ... it appears that Lord Krishna Himself thinks so, if you read the Chapter-10 of BG.

But anyway, I am impressed with your explanation. :)

OM

smaranam
27 July 2011, 02:16 PM
What are those not-so-good things if those are not Vasudeva ?

OM

Namaste,

VAsudev is the reservoir and repository of everything, but He is not IN that everything. "They are in Me but I am not in them"

The not-so-good is within the realm of triguNa (raja tama). The materially good is also in the realm of triguNa - ordinary sattva.

VAsudev is sheer transcendence - visuddha sattva , and beyond the three guNa, so says the BhAgvatam too.

So then what is all the other things within the triguNa ? That is a product of VAsudev's Shakti pariNAm, not VAsudev Himself.

That would explain Vibhuti Yog , Gita Chapter 10. In any case, the Lord says in the end:
BG 10.40: O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end to My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences.
BG 10.41: Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.

BG 10.42: But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.


praNAm

____________________________

KrushNa KRSNa what do you see
I see sheer transcendence looking back at me

Astronaut driven spaceships , pilot-driven wings
Vibhuti Yoga,(Gita Chap 10) shows favorite things
KRSNa , how did You know what goes in this list
raindrops on roses, snowflakes and mist

grames
28 July 2011, 07:10 AM
Dear Smaranam,

It is always a delight to read your messages here. The point you made here is very subtle and sublime and i very much enjoyed it. What a clarity and giving this secret in the proper context makes it even more wonderful.

Hare Krshna!
Your Servant
Grames

devotee
28 July 2011, 07:47 AM
VAsudev is the reservoir and repository of everything, but He is not IN that everything. "They are in Me but I am not in them"

The not-so-good is within the realm of triguNa (raja tama). The materially good is also in the realm of triguNa - ordinary sattva.

VAsudev is sheer transcendence - visuddha sattva , and beyond the three guNa, so says the BhAgvatam too.

So then what is all the other things within the triguNa ? That is a product of VAsudev's Shakti pariNAm, not VAsudev Himself.

That would explain Vibhuti Yog , Gita Chapter 10. In any case, the Lord says in the end:
BG 10.40: O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end to My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences.
BG 10.41: Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but a spark of My splendor.

BG 10.42: But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.


Good explanation, Smaranam. I think we already discussed similar issue in thread, " .... I am not in them".

OM

Ekoham
29 July 2011, 03:07 AM
namaste Eko,
I was thinking about the nature of God from dvaita point of view, specifically from Ramanuja school where Lord is separate from the jiva but jiva is dependent on the Lord. There is Lord, jiva and mateiral. Yet karma seems to be a separate entity existing eternally too. ?

I don't know exactly what the cause of suffering is. I have been thinking about this a lot too but I have almost come to the conclusion that suffering is due to our own actions i.e. karma. . .


Namaste Satay,

I am writing this post for two reasons...

1- Actually I just wanted to share my friends tragedy with you.
My friend was suffering from a very high fever and needed urgent medical attention and there were MBBS doctors available too, as arranged by his family members, but since he was ardent follower of Ayurveda, he wanted an Ayurvedic Doctor (a Vaidya) to treat him and in the bargain we lost our beloved friend. I wished had he taken treatment of allopathy (MBBS doctors) he would have survived, but who can control the destiny after all.

2- Gautama Buddha said, that the cause of suffering is desires and I just thought my intellect goes with it.

Pranam

Ekoham

Mana
29 July 2011, 04:10 AM
Namast&#233; Ekoham

I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

A good friend will always leave le most terrible gap in our hearts when they go. We can but console ourselves that they have made good progress in this life.

There is sympathetic resonance between two souls which brings people together, two instruments played at the same time will resonate due to there own strings and they will also resonate with the sound of the neighbour.

Friends play the same song. This is why it shakes our souls so to be parted.

Undoubtedly we feel loss as the harmony is momentarily neither so rich nor so full.

Pranam


Mana

Ekoham
04 August 2011, 10:24 AM
Namasté Ekoham

I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

A good friend will ...................

Pranam
Mana

Namaste Mana,

You are truly kind and compassionate, thank you for your kind words, but in reality, there is no death.
I used it as an analogy to explain Satay, that when Advaitin view can get the answer why.........

Pranam

Ekoham

sunyata07
04 August 2011, 03:00 PM
Namaste Ekoham,

I'm very sorry for the loss of your friend. You're right; there is no real "death" and so no real reason to lament, but it is still a sad time for those who are left behind to mourn the soul's passing, especially when the death is untimely. Although one might challenge me with the question "what is an untimely death?" We all no there are no accidents in this universe. Karmic law dictates that reactions follow actions giving rise to more reactions, turning the wheel of living and dying continually.

On the topic of suffering, who really suffers in this world? Ego perhaps will bemoan "I am suffering!", but we know the egoic self does not really exist. In the great scheme of things, it is but a speck - the minutest particle - on the map of Reality. Looking at things through the lens of duality makes it easy to see how it can be to think one is suffering. The things of this world then become segregated into two parts: things that give me joy, things that give me pain. How easy it is to slip from side of the spectrum to the other! That is not to say pain is not there. It is erroneous deny the existence of pain, but the question of suffering is different. Suffering denotes a protracted length of pain, where one must endure physical affliction, or psychological/emotional misery. Do either of these things go on indefinitely? No. How can it be said, then, that beings suffer? Maybe for a time they endure pain, made intense when it is transformed into the guise of suffering, but no suffering ever goes on. Does it really exist? If and when it culminates in death, which some might argue is indeed a mercy and a release from suffering, does not the soul start afresh?

Om namah Shivaya

Ekoham
05 August 2011, 02:12 AM
Namaste,

Thank you Shunyata07 for your kind words.

IT HAS BECOME VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO CLARIFY THINGS BEFORE THE WHOLE THING TAKES A DIFFERENT TURN.

It's all my fault as I could not explain thing better.

Mana and Shunyata07, I am saying this again that there is no death literally.
All my friends are alive and in good health.

I was just trying to explain Satay so I used an example in which I imagined death of a friend.

I hope for now, the confusion over death of friend is over.

I apologize for my failure to explain things well, which led to this confusion.

Pranam

Ekoham

ganeshamylord
18 May 2014, 02:12 AM
Dear satay
You have indeed asked a very beautiful question. I am a beginner myself with limited experience so i can only bring out the limited insights of mine.
Suffering/Happiness can only be experienced. Right?
And both are due to our limited consciousness which freezes our ability to deal with or modify the karma that is the root of suffering.

God, as we know is the supreme consciousness whose mental agility goes beyond the three gunas and the 5 senses. Yes God knows no pain but he also knows no gain. Hence he is called sat chid ananda or the eternally satisfied happy one. And that "happy" doesnt mean the happiness we get by watching a movie or an actress with no clothes on :naughty:

Il give an example. I have seen a BBC documentary where a man(forgot the name) lied on bare ground and a truck with a 1000kgs passed over him and nothing happened to him. Well if the same truck went over us we would be in the typical "pain" and suffering...
So he wasnt affected but we surely will be.

Likewise God isnt affected by pain and material happiness because He is simply NOT involved with the results of the actions. He is just a witness.
We arent different from Him,,its just that we have long lost our touch with Him in endearing our trivial pursuits with the society and its rules and regulations.So the first thing is to align with God consciousness(NOT KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS) which leads us to a path where we see HIS power and spark in all living beings knowing that there is nothing impossible not even the graha doshas or the kundali dosha or jataka dosha or anything that cant be mitigated. If we achieve that supreme pranic consciousness there will be no suffering and for that we need infinite wisdom and infinite mercy both of which can be given by the shiva beej mantra HAUM. This one letter can save us from a million sins.
trust me these things can only be experienced personally as there is no point dilly dallying.
Because i personally experienced a change in consciousness after starting the "om gam ganapatayyai namaha"
Example i was crossing the road and a motor bike was fast about to nudge me and was just about 1cm away from crushing me,,yet i experienced no panic (which i would have a few months before starting the mantra), Infact i experienced nothing no fear and was as calm as a tree and the mobike didnot hurt me and moved past me.
Qualities that krishna describes in gita like fearlessness,,compassion etc would sprout and negative stuff like fear,illusion,low self esteem would get destroyed

You will have to start a mantra of your liking and blend it with kundalini yoga or pranayama. see the difference YOURSELF. You will see Gods compassion and love in all beings. You will be happy and more importantly satisfied.

Eastern Mind
18 May 2014, 03:54 PM
Vannakkam: Unlike in some world views. I don't for the world believe that the purpose of life is to suffer. Suffering is primarily a state of mind.

Aum namasivaya

bhargavsai
27 May 2014, 01:41 AM
When there is a separate "God" who is different from Jiva, then that God cannot understand suffering. But, as per some sources "God" is Jiva. It is God, who through Jiva is seeing suffering, as per Nisargadutta Maharaj. God mistakes himself to be Jiva and experiences pain, and to remove that pain one needs to realize that he is not the mind or body, that he is awareness himself.

Maybe prayers to God, miraculously make the awareness(God) in you grant you the thing you desire.