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Agnideva
26 December 2006, 09:14 AM
Namaste All,

The Muktika Upanishad lists the 108 Upanishads, the Veda to which they belong and the shanti mantras that precede the text of the Upanishads belonging to each Veda.

The 108 Upanishads are further classified into several categories: Principal Vedic, General Vedanta, Sannyasa, Yoga, Shaiva, Vaishnava and Shakta. Where is this classification from?

OM Shanti,
A.

orlando
26 December 2006, 12:31 PM
Namaste all.
By http://www.advaita.it/library/muktika.htm
Muktika Upanishad
Translated by Dr. A. G. Krishna Warrier
Published by The Theosophical Publishing House, Chennai

Om ! That (Brahman) is infinite, and this (universe) is infinite. The infinite proceeds from the infinite. (Then) taking the infinitude of the infinite (universe), It remains as the infinite (Brahman) alone.
Om ! Let there be Peace in me ! Let there be Peace in my environment ! Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me !

I-i-1-6. In the beautiful city of Ayodhya, in the centre of a pavilion set with gems, together with Sita, Bharata, Lakshmana and Satrughna, was Rama seated, glorified day and night by sages like Sanaka, Vasistha and Suka as well as other devotees, unchanging witness of thousands of modifications of the intellect, delighted in contemplating his own form. At the end of this Samadhi, Hanuman asked with devotion, ‘O Rama, you are the supreme being, of the nature of Sat, Chid and Ananda. I desire to know your nature truly for liberation. Please tell me how I can be released from bondage without strain.
I-i-7-14. Rama: Well asked. I shall tell you. I am well established in Vedanta.
Hanuman: What is Vedanta and where is it ?
Rama: The Vedas in all their great extent are my breath, Vedanta is well grounded in them, like oil in sesamum.
Hanuman: How many are the Vedas and how many branches do they have ? Of these what are the Upanishads ?
Rama: Vedas are four, Rig-Veda etc., many branches and Upanishads exist in them. Rig-Veda has 21 branches and Yajus has 109. Sama has 1000 and Atharva has 50. Each branch has one Upanishad. Even by reading one verse of them with devotion, one gets the status of union with me, hard to get even by sages.
I-i-15-17. Hanuman: Rama, sages speak differently: some say there is only one kind of liberation. Others say it can be got by worshipping your name and by the Taraka mantra at Kashi. Others speak of Sankhya-Yoga and Bhakti-Yoga, the enquiry into Vedanta-Vakyas etc.
I-i-18-23. Rama: Liberation is of four kinds: Salokya etc. But the only real type is Kaivalya. Anybody even though leading a wicked life, attains Salokya, not other worlds, by worshipping my name. Dying in the sacred Brahmanala in Kashi, he will get the Taraka-mantra and also liberation, without rebirth. On dying anywhere (else) in Kashi, Maheshvara will utter the Taraka-mantra in his right ear. He gets Sarupya with me as his sins are washed away.
The same is called Salokya and Sarupya. Persevering in good conduct, with mind fixed upon me, loving me as the Self of all, the twice-born gets nearer to me – This is called the three forms of liberation. Salokya, Sarupya and Samipya.
I-i-24-25. Meditating on my eternal form as prescribed by the Teacher, one will surely achieve identity with me like the insects changing into the bee. This alone is the liberation of identity (Sayujya) yielding the bliss of Brahman.
All these four kinds of Mukti will be got by worshipping Me.
I-i-26-29. But by what means is the Kaivalya kind of Moksha got ? The Mandukya is enough; if knowledge is not got from it, then study the Ten Upanishads. Getting knowledge very soon, you will reach my abode. If certainty is not got even then, study the 32 Upanishads and stop. If desiring Moksha without the body, read the 108 Upanishads. Hear their order.
I-i-30-39.

1. Isa
2. Kena
3. Katha
4. Prasna
5. Munda
6. Mandukya
7. Taittiri
8. Aitareya
9. Chandogya
10. Brihadaranyaka
11. Brahma
12. Kaivalya
13. Jabala
14. Svetasva
15. Hamsa
16. Aruni
17. Garbha
18. Narayana
19. Paramahamsa
20. Amritabindu
21. Amritanada
22. Atahrvasirah
23. Atharvasikha
24. Maitrayini
25. Kaushitakibrahmana
26. Brihajjabala
27. Nrisimhatapini
28. Kalagnirudra
29. Maitreya
30. Subala
31. Kshurika
32. Mantrika
33. Sarvasara
34. Niralamba
35. Sukarahasya
36. Vajrasuchika
37. Tejobindu
38. Nadabindu
39. Dhyanabindu
40. Brahmavidya
41. Yogatattva
42. Atmabodha
43. Naradaparivrajaka
44. Trisikhi
45. Sita
46. Yogachudamani
47. Nirvana
48. Mandalabrahmana
49. Dakshinamurti
50. Sarabha
51. Skanda
52. Tripadvibhuti-Mahanarayana
53. Advayataraka
54. Ramarahasya
55. Ramatapani
56. Vasudeva
57. Mudgala
58. Sandilya
59. Paingala
60. Bhiksu
61. Mahat
62. Sariraka
63. Yogasikha
64. Turiyatita
65. Sannyasa
66. Paramahamsaparivrajaka
67. Akshamalika
68. Avyakta
69. Ekakshara
70. Annapurna
71. Surya
72. Akshi
73. Adhyatma
74. Kundika
75. Savitri
76. Atma
77. Pasupata
78. Parabrahma
79. Avadhutaka
80. Tripuratapini
81. Devi
82. Tripura
83. Katharudra
84. Bhavana
85. Rudrahridaya
86. Yoga-kundali
87. Bhasma
88. Rudraksha
89. Ganapati
90. Darsana
91. Tarasara
92. Mahavakya
93. Panchabrahma
94. Pranagnihotra
95. Gopalatapini
96. Krishna
97. Yajnavalkya
98. Varaha
99. Satyayani
100. Hayagriva
101. Dattatreya
102. Garuda
103. Kalisamtarana
104. Jabali
105. Saubhagyalakshmi
106. Sarasvatirahasya
107. Bahvricha
108. Muktika

I-i-40-43. These destroy three kinds of Bhavana (regarding) body, senses and mind respectively as identified with Atman. The best of Brahmanas will become Jivanmuktas if they study upto the destruction of Prarabdha, these 108 Upanishads from a Guru along with the Shanti-pada. Then, in course of time they will get Vedeha-mukti, surely.
I-i-44-52. These 108 are the essence of all Upanishads and can cut away all sins by merely hearing once. These cause release whether read with or without knowledge. One may give away a kingdom, wealth etc., to one who asks, but not these 108 to just anyone – to an unbeliever (nastika), ungrateful, of bad conduct, one against devotion to me, deluded by wrong scripture or lacking devotion to the Guru.
But they shall be taught to one devoted to service, devotee, of good conduct, birth and wisdom. He should be well tested. A Rik verse on this: the goddess of knowledge came to a Brahmana and said ‘Protect me, I am your treasure, do not teach me to one who is jealous, dishonest and deceitful – then I shall powerful, but give it to one who is learned, careful, wise and celibate, after examining him’.

I-ii-1. Then Maruti asked Sri Ramachandra thus: Please relate to me separately the Shanti-mantras of the different Vedas, Rig etc.
Sri Rama then said: "My speech rests on my mind … " [Vanme-Manasi….]. This is the Shanti-mantra of the following ten Upanishads forming part of the Rig-Veda:

1. Aitareya
2. Kaushitakibrahmana
3. Nadabindu
4. Atmabodha
5. Nirvana
6. Mudgala
7. Akshamalika
8. Tripura
9. Saubhagyalakshmi
10. Bahvricha

I-ii-2. "That (which lies beyond) is full" [Purnamada ….] – and so on: This is the Shanti-mantra of the following Nineteen Upanishads, forming part of the Sukla-Yajur-Veda:

1. Isavasya
2. Brihadaranyaka
3. Jabala
4. Hamsa
5. Paramahamsa
6. Subala
7. Mantrika
8. Niralamba
9. Trisikhibrahmana
10. Mandalabrahmana
11. Advayataraka
12. Paingala
13. Bhiksu
14. Turiyatita
15. Adhyatma
16. Tarasara
17. Yajnavalkya
18. Satyayani
19. Muktika

I-ii-3. "May (the Brahman of the Upanishads) protect us both" [Sahanavavatu …] – and so on: This is the Shanti-mantra of the following Thirty-Two Upanishads, forming part of the Krishna-Yajur-Veda:

1. Kathavalli
2. Taittiriyaka
3. Brahma
4. Kaivalya
5. Svetasvatara
5. Garbha
6. Narayana
7. Amritabindu
8. Amritanada
9. Kalagnirudra
10. Kshurika
11. Sarvasara
12. Sukarahasya
13. Tejobindu
14. Dhyanabindu
15. Brahmavidya
16. Yogatattva
17. Dakshinamurti
18. Skanda
19. Sariraka
20. Yogasikha
21. Ekakshara
22. Akshi
23. Avadhuta
24. Katharudra
25. Rudrahridaya
26. Yoga-kundalini
27. Panchabrahma
28. Pranagnihotra
29. Varaha
30. Kalisamtarana
31. Sarasvatirahasya

I-ii-4. "May the unseen powers nourish" [Apyayantu ….] – and so on: This is the Shanti-mantra of the following Sixteen Upanishads forming part of the Sama-Veda:

1. Kena
2. Chandogya
3. Aruni
4. Maitrayani
5. Maitreya
6. Vajrasuchika
7. Yogachudamani
8. Vasudeva
9. Mahat
10. Sannyasa
11. Avyakta
12. Kundika
13. Savitri
14. Rudrakshajabala
15. Darsana
16. Jabali

I-ii-5. "May we hear with our ears the auspicious truths of the Vedanta" [Bhadram-Karnebhih…] – and so on: This is the Shanti-mantra of the following Thirty-One Upanishads of the Atharva-Veda:

1. Prasna
2. Mundaka
3. Mandukya
4. Atahrvasiras
5. Atharvasikha
6. Brihajjabala
7. Nrisimhatapini (Purvottara)
8. Naradaparivrajaka
9. Sita
10. Sarabha
11. Tripadvibhuti-Mahanarayana
12. Ramarahasya
13. Ramatapini (Purvottara)
14. Sandilya
15. Paramahamsaparivrajaka
16. Annapurna
17. Surya
18. Atma
19. Pasupatabrahmana
20. Parabrahma
21. Tripuratapini
22. Devi
23. Bhavana
24. Bhasmajabala
25. Ganapati
26. Mahavakya
27. Gopalatapini (Purvottara)
28. Krishna
29. Hayagriva
30. Dattatreya
31. Garuda


I wonder about the validity of this Upanishad.
According to the verse in bold one could be a wicked person and obtain moksha just because he/she died in Kashi!
I copy something from another forum:

Muktika Upanishad is likely to be a recent composition (of some overzealous advaitins!) as it has not been quoted by any pre Sayana commentrator. It gives a list of 108 upanishads, many of which have verses borrowed and tailored from Shankara's commentaries. None of these Upanishads are authentic because no early commentrator has quoted them. When faced with tremendous pressure from Vishsitadvaita and Dvaita, Advaitins manufactured a lot of Upanishads and tried to pass them as authentic, and added many Mayavada looking Upanishads, and also "edited" a number of Upanishads.


To add more in line with moderators comments

1. Why this rama - hanumat samvadham is absent in Ramayana?

2. After hearing from Rama on Mukti directly, why Hanuman refused to go to Vaikunta, inspite of the fact, it has been told to him that Kaivalya is becoming one with Rama

3. When did Rama accepted the fact that his name is the Taraka mantra

4. Nature of Ramavatara is not that of an Aacharya like Lord Krishna neither revealed the true nature of Rama, even when devataas & Gnanis reminded him that he is Bhagavan, Rama simply answered "I see myself as son of shri Dasaratha", if so, when did he accepted that he is God and Kaivalya/mukti is becoming himself

5. Regarding authoritativeness, when Muktika includes itself in the list of upanishads that has been promulgated by itself, why people who accept muktika cannon for authoritative upanishads refuse to accept similar classification done by Padma Purana by classifying puraanas into Saatvic, Rajas and Taamasi. Need more logic

Regards,
Orlando.

Sudarshan
07 January 2007, 08:47 AM
That is right. No Acharya prior to 19th century has ever quoted Muktika or most of the upanishads it mentions. It is a recent composition and not sruti. Most of the upanishads it mentions are cut-and-paste-edit material from Shankaracharya's commentaries, and passed on as authentic scripture.

Agnideva
08 January 2007, 09:15 AM
That is right. No Acharya prior to 19th century has ever quoted Muktika or most of the upanishads it mentions. It is a recent composition and not sruti. Most of the upanishads it mentions are cut-and-paste-edit material from Shankaracharya's commentaries, and passed on as authentic scripture.

Namaste Sudarshan,

Be that as it may. My question remains where we get the classification of the Upanishads into the above-mentioned catagories, and who classified them as such? I ask this question after reading a thread on the Ganapati Upanishad which is classified as a Saiva Upanishad, but not accepted by all Saivas as such.

OM Shanti,
A.

Sudarshan
08 January 2007, 09:47 AM
Namaste Sudarshan,

Be that as it may. My question remains where we get the classification of the Upanishads into the above-mentioned catagories, and who classified them as such? I ask this question after reading a thread on the Ganapati Upanishad which is classified as a Saiva Upanishad, but not accepted by all Saivas as such.

OM Shanti,
A.

The only way to verify that an Upanishad is authentic would be to check if it has been cited by a pre sAyana scholar of any tradition. Again, there are very clear evidences for manipulation of many texts, like mahAnArAyaNa and Bahvricha because versed cited by old commentrators are missing or new insertions are done.

c.smith
19 January 2007, 07:23 PM
108 Upanishads thus 108 beads on the mala?

Agnideva
19 January 2007, 09:17 PM
108 Upanishads thus 108 beads on the mala?
Namaste Clay,

In truth there are over 210 Upanishads to be found. 108 are recognized in the Muktika Upanishad, which considers itself the last in the list. What you’re truly asking, I think, is why the number 108, and what’s so special/holy about it?

The significance of the number 108 goes back to Vedic astronomy. Vedic astronomy has divided the ecliptic (path taken the sun, moon and planets from a geocentric perspective) into two superimposing zodiacs. The first zodiac (which is older) divides the ecliptic into 27 nakshatras (asterisms), and each nakshatra is further divided into 4 divisions (padas). Therefore, 27 x 4 = 108. Similarly, the second zodiac divides the ecliptic into 12 rashis (constellations, the 12 sun signs), and each rashi is further divided into 9 sections (amshas). Therefore, 12 x 9 = 108. The nakshatras and rashis are superimposed and bear a permanent relationship of 2.25 nakshatras = 1 rashi.

So what? My understanding of this topic is far from perfect, but this is how I’ve understood it: in Vedic astronomy, all the parts of the zodiac are seen as parts of the Purusha (the Supreme Being), etched within Prakriti (nature). Different nakshatras are said to be different parts of the Purusha. If we were to draw out this Nakshatra Purusha in a sphere, we’d see an image of a Cosmic Being whose head and feet meet … like a developing fetus inside an egg. Well, the egg is the Brahmanda (egg of Brahma, the universe), and the Being etched within it is the Purusha, the Supreme Lord, who has entered the manifest universe and pervades it wholly.

Therefore, 108 is a number that represents the Lord Himself: the Supreme Purusha within Prakriti. This is why 108 came be regarded as holy, and you’ll notice the number 108 used over and over in Hinduism (108 upanishads, 108 pancharatra agamas, 108 names of God, 108 beads of the japa mala, etc). When we chant 108 times on our japa mala, it’s like our prayers are going around the manifest universe. Another way to think about it: the sun, moon and the planets by following their orbits on the ecliptic are continually paying homage to the Supreme Purusha by their parikrama (circumambulation), as we do in temple. So, when we chant 108 times on a japa mala, we too are symbolically performing that universal parikrama.

I hope this made sense – it is somewhat difficult to describe, but an easy-to-understand concept. There are many other interpretations as to why 108 is considered special, but this is by far my favorite, as it is very ancient and deeply connected to the Veda.

Regards,
A.

yajvan
19 January 2007, 09:48 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

108 Upanishads thus 108 beads on the mala?

Namaste C.smith,

We have discussed this but I cannot recall the post.. you are on the right track, yet there is one more click down. 108 = 9X12. This is 9 divisions of a sign (Rasi in Jyotish knowledge) X 12 houses (some call bhava).
Each division is 1/9th or a navamsa( nav or 9 + amsa or division). This is equal to 3 degree's 20 minutes of an arc.
Each division is owned by a graha ( ~ planet , but really that which binds... now what the graha binds is another post).

So, here's some add'l info - next to the rasi chart, the navamsa is held in high regard. It is also called the Dharmamsa ( dharma + amsa or division), so the importance is so inferred by Dharma.
Why so important? Within the navamsa , one looks for the Ishtadevata, based upon the Atma-karaka.
When we aave mala beads, we are working with Dharma, it's influeunce, the Ishta , no? So this 108 is the connection to ones dharma.

Now, what an approprite number for the Upanishads , Upa "near" + ni="down" + sad="sit" , some even allued to sadh " to go straight to the goal' or sad from sat, the truth - So you have sit down near/close. Now to who? the implication is to the teacher/guru and also near the Truth, represented by the guru. Back to the 108.
Yet one can see the 'cream' of all the Upanishads in the primary ones , the first 13. Why so ? these are the ones that are commented on, in the Brahmasuturas. And the 'cream of the cream' can be found in the 700 verses of the Bhagavad-gita ( the song of the Lord).


one can restrain the breath a 1000 times a day but your ignorance will not vanish without the wisdom of the Upanishads - Swami Sivananda

pranams,

Mukunda
21 January 2007, 02:49 AM
The only way to verify that an Upanishad is authentic would be to check if it has been cited by a pre sAyana scholar of any tradition. Again, there are very clear evidences for manipulation of many texts, like mahAnArAyaNa and Bahvricha because versed cited by old commentrators are missing or new insertions are done.

praNAms all,

Since Upanishads are portions of vedas(no content change) Is it possible to verify any upanishad in general with vedas itself ? I mean to say search for the sloka found in upanishad in slokas of vedas ?

MysticalGypsi
25 January 2007, 10:06 PM
What is japa mala?

Agnideva
25 January 2007, 10:13 PM
What is japa mala?

Namaste MG,

Japa mala is a rosary. Japa = chanting and mala = chain/garland. Hindu ones always contain 108 beads, or some multiple of 108 like 54 or 36.

Regards,
A.

orlando
26 January 2007, 12:07 PM
What is japa mala?

Dear MysticalGypsi,please read the chapter Practice and Paraphernalia at http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/sadhana/morning/japa/japa.htm

It explains very well japa-mala from vaishnava point of view.

Regards,
Orlando.

MysticalGypsi
26 January 2007, 01:04 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

So, when they say one round is that saying the mantra 108 times to equal a round?

Agnideva
26 January 2007, 01:23 PM
So, when they say one round is that saying the mantra 108 times to equal a round?
When I hear one round, I always take it as 108 times.


So, can I say my mantra or am I supposed to only say mantra with names of the Divine? What do you think?
Not sure what you're asking MG. Can you explain?

A.

Agnideva
26 January 2007, 03:18 PM
Well, the mantra that I have used since I was about 15 is from the heart sutra. But, from reading through the link, it appeared it had one, specific mantra for this practice, and it specifically stated what you should be thinking about on certain words, like Rama. I was not sure if everyone uses this mantra or various branches of Hinduism use different mantras. And, basically can I say my trusty old mantra or would it benefit me more to focus on one with Rama or some similar name in it. Or can you pick different mantra at different times. Does that make sense?
Namaste MG,

Ah, now I understand what you mean. Are you by chance chanting: gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha? This is a Buddhist mantra from the Mahayana vehicle. I am not sure as to rules for this particular mantra (i.e. beads, repetition, etc). There is much similarity between the recitation of mantras in Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Both use 108 repetitions. The difference is Hindu mantras usually contain the name of God, whereas Buddhist mantras don’t (as in the above).

In Hinduism, we have a large number of mantras. Different branches use different mantras, and there are also different mantras for different purposes. Mantras for chanting are classified into two categories: Nirguni and Saguni. The Nirguni mantras are few and usually come from the Upanishads like Aham Brahmasmi (I am Brahman) or Soham (I am That). The Nirguni mantras do not contain specific names like Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Devi, etc. The Saguni mantras are more popular and there are many of them. The Saguni mantras contain the name of God like Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Devi, etc. Which mantra you chant depends on which tradition you’re following. The site you saw, for example, spoke of a very famous mantra used by Vaishnava Hindus.

If you’re focused on Hindu devotion, then it important to follow the mantra from the particular branch you follow. In my practice, for example, I use different mantras for prayer and chanting. The prayer mantras, I chant only once in the morning at my home altar. The chanting mantra I repeat 108 times with a japa mala. I’ve used different chanting mantras at different times, but I find it best to chant the same mantra all the time. Since I follow Shaivism, I use Shaivite mantras. There’s also differences in which types of beads one uses for chanting. In Shaivism and Shaktism, we use rudraksha beads primarily. In Vaishnavism, the tulsi beads are highly recommended.

Oftentimes, you’ll hear people say that a mantra is more (or only) efficacious toward spiritual unfoldment when given to you by a guru. That is not to say that we cannot use any given mantra at will (this is my personal opinion).

Hope that helps :).

OM Shanti,
A.

Agnideva
26 January 2007, 06:02 PM
Namaste again, MG.

Yes that is it! The funny thing is that for about 15 years I thought that little mantra was mine, as I found it in a book of mantras all by itself. It took me awhile to discover it was a famous, common mantra within the heart sutra. And, I learned to pronounce it right JUST last year. LOL Thanks to advanced technology. I think the Divine understands.
Hehe :). Yeah, that mantra is really famous in Buddhism, and beautiful. I must admit it’s quite catchy too.


Anyway, I appreciate you responding and helping me in my total ignorance. The problem is this. I am still learning the basics of Hindu, let alone all the different traditions. I looked up the beads online and I found a couple of sources so that part is good. Now, I just need to decide which mantra, but when I try to think about all the various traditions, this is what appears in my mind: ?

I suppose the benefits are there whichever mantra, but I would like to have a focus. I suppose I need to learn the basics of all the traditions? I now understand the meaning of the words for all the scared texts (as n title of works, not content), so I can learn the basics of the various traditions. I do not have a guru here so.... Yep, that’s my belief too, focus is very important in practice. Hinduism is very broad, and the best way to follow it in my opinion is to pick one particular sampradaya (teaching lineage) and stick to it. Hindus who don’t have a human guru always take God as guru. Or put another way, God is the Guru of all gurus. In Shaivism, for example, Lord Shiva as Dakshinamurti is the Guru of all gurus. Do take your time and learn some basics of the various branches, and go where your heart and mind take you, that’s my suggestion.


And the chanting mantra you recite 108 times every day?
We have one very important mantra in Shaivism: aum namaH shivAya, a.k.a. panchakshara (penta-syllabic) mantra (na-maH-shi-vA-ya), and comes from the Yajurveda. When affixed with AUM, it becomes shadakshara (hexa-syllabic). This is the one I use along with rudraksha beads.

Sometimes, I’ve also chanted the Ganesha mantra: aum gam gaNapataye namaH, and the Kartikeya mantra: aum sharavana bhava, and the Nirguni mantra: soham (soooooo with the inbreath, and hummmmmm with the outbreath).


Any suggestions for this newbie?
Well MG, I don’t want to push you in any particular direction. It really depends on which tradition you are leaning toward. The best and most simple mantra is AUM (aaaaaaauuuuuuuuuummmmm) chanted slowly and deeply. It is the seed mantra for all other mantras. If you’re leaning toward Shaivism, then you can use the ones I mentioned, although it is said that aum namaH shivAya should be given by a guru for full efficacy (again, that doesn’t mean you cannot chant it). There are a couple of other important ones in Shaivism that I know of, which I can tell you if you’re interested. I am sure our Vaishnava and Shakta friends here can help out too, if you’re leaning toward those branches.

Hope that helps :).

Regards,
A.

yajvan
26 January 2007, 09:01 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste MG,

Perhaps if you have time to read this post and others in this string it may help...
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8260&postcount=1

Also - the wise say, we dig one well. That is if you have settled into a mantra that is bearing fruit for you , then we stay with that.
Now, is it bearing fruit for you ? What is different about your behaviour, thoughts, etc.?

Mantra shastra is extreamely profund - the science of sound - sabda and sphota. This is essential even in our communcation , sound and form. As this sound has shakti, engery or power.

I will make a post on this once I collect all of the info that will make it interesting - yet the key of this discussion will be:
na hi kascit svasmin atmanai muhurtam avatisthate - there is nothng that subsist in its own form for a moment.
That is, everything is moving , vibrating, rearranging. We are not in the same place even in space. If you are sitting in your chair now and reading this, it is not the same akasha as one minute ago let alone yesterday. The earth has moved, the solar system has moved , the galaxy has moved. We are not the same phycially as atoms are lost, changed, etc.
All this creation is moving and changing. ( yet what does not change? the SELF)

So, what does that have to do with sound? If we are going from one level of order to another, we can influence the next state, the next moment, by the sound/mantra chosen to affect our next state of being.

In sanscrit a sound is sabda - drum, voice, bird singing, rocks falling , waves...these sounds are fundmental to creation. When theses sound are used for speach, we have vac. Yet this sabda are of two kinds ( for this conversation) - karya and nitya , or produced, and permanent, eternal ( like the veda's , not created by man).

The fundamental knowledge is this... that at its core of words, the root, the bija, the dhatuh ( meaning 'becoming') has this kriya ( action) in it.
One wise in mantra shastra is aware of this, and knows how to use the sound for benefit. The word/root has intrinsic power to convey the sense which is inseparable from it. Ssaid another way, as my teacher has instructed, root words have the same vibration in it, that is found in the object that it is describing. This has been my body of study as of late.

If there is interest I will be happy to collect my thoughts and post this.
For this, it may take a few posts , and we will need to strap on our open-mindedness , and start to ponder this, as this is very intriguing knowledge to consider.

Agnideva
27 January 2007, 12:17 AM
Namaste MG,

Yes, for someone unaccustomed to Hinduism it can be mind boggling. But, I am just taking it one day at a time and reading stuff. A lot of the concepts I have read about just reading various books, but putting it all together and learning the Hindu words and what goes with what. :) But it is fun and have no deadlines.
You'll see, one of these days, everything will come together, and you'll say aha! i get it. You should be happy to know that you already know a lot more about Hinduism now than many Hindus, no joke.


I have used Aum and really have a love for that. Maybe I will just start learning about Shaivism since I have really found a connection with Shiva.

And, use that mantra. So, now I have a focus! Whew. :)

Really, Hinduism is so complex and far reaching, I think you have to just start with one idea and relax about getting it all at once.Focus is always good :). Focus on one tradition and see where it leads you.

Meanwhile, as we wait for Sri Yajvan to post his insights on mantra shastra (which I am very interested in knowing more about as well), I thought I would share this link (http://www.sanatansociety.org/indian_music_and_mantras/sounds_of_tantra_mantras.htm) with you. You can listen to some mp3 mantras there, but none of the ones we discussed. I absolutely love Harish Johari's deep voice. In Hinduism, we always recommend Ganesha and Saraswati mantras for education and learning. There's also some nice artwork on that site. I'm almost willing to bet that Sri Yajvan's profile avatar comes from there ;).

Regards,
A.

orlando
29 January 2007, 12:38 PM
Namaste again, MG.

The best and most simple mantra is AUM (aaaaaaauuuuuuuuuummmmm) chanted slowly and deeply. It is the seed mantra for all other mantras. [/FONT]

Hope that helps :).

Regards,
A.

Going by orthodoxy, OM/AUM is forbidden for women and shudras.

There are hindu scriptures called Agamas.The Agamas accept the authority of Vedas.

The Agamas are predominantly divided into Saiva, Sakta and Vaishnava Agamas. Agamas mainly talk about construction of temples; the rules for installation and consecration of the deities in the temples; and the methods of performing pujas in the temples.

Although OM/AUM is forbidden for women and shudras,Dirgha-Pranav or OUM is allowed as per shakta agamas.

In the Srimad Bhagavata Purana (1.4.) it is stated thus –




SB 1.4.14: Sūta Gosvāmī said: When the second millennium overlapped the third, the great sage [Vyāsadeva] was born to Parāśara in the womb of Satyavatī, the daughter of Vasu.

SB 1.4.15: Once upon a time he [Vyāsadeva], as the sun rose, took his morning ablution in the waters of the Sarasvatī and sat alone to concentrate.

SB 1.4.16: The great sage Vyāsadeva saw anomalies in the duties of the millennium. This happens on the earth in different ages, due to unseen forces in the course of time.

SB 1.4.17-18: The great sage, who was fully equipped in knowledge, could see, through his transcendental vision, the deterioration of everything material, due to the influence of the age. He could also see that the faithless people in general would be reduced in duration of life and would be impatient due to lack of goodness. Thus he contemplated for the welfare of men in all statuses and orders of life.

SB 1.4.19: He saw that the sacrifices mentioned in the Vedas were means by which the people's occupations could be purified. And to simplify the process he divided the one Veda into four, in order to expand them among men.

SB 1.4.20: The four divisions of the original sources of knowledge [the Vedas] were made separately. But the historical facts and authentic stories mentioned in the Purāṇas are called the fifth Veda.

SB 1.4.21: After the Vedas were divided into four divisions, Paila Ṛṣi became the professor of the Ṛg Veda, Jaimini the professor of the Sāma Veda, and Vaiśampāyana alone became glorified by the Yajur Veda.

SB 1.4.22: The Sumantu Muni Ańgirā, who was very devotedly engaged, was entrusted with the Atharva Veda. And my father, Romaharṣaṇa, was entrusted with the Purāṇas and historical record

SB 1.4.23: All these learned scholars, in their turn, rendered their entrusted Vedas unto their many disciples, grand-disciples and great grand-disciples, and thus the respective branches of the followers of the Vedas came into being.

SB 1.4.24: Thus the great sage Vyāsadeva, who is very kind to the ignorant masses, edited the Vedas so they might be assimilated by less intellectual men.

SB 1.4.25: Out of compassion, the great sage thought it wise that this would enable men to achieve the ultimate goal of life. Thus he compiled the great historical narration called the Mahābhārata for women, laborers and friends of the twice-born.




Women and shudras are generally considered less-intelligent as regards their philosophical perception.Because of this consideration they are considered devoid of necessary qualifications to understand the purpose of the Vedas.For them the Mahabharata was prepared. The purpose of the Mahabharata is to administer the purpose of the Vedas.

In Vishnu Purana it is said:
bharata-vyapadesena hyamnayarthah pradarsitah
vedah pratisthah sarve sarve purane natra samsayah

"On the pretext of writing the Mahabharata, Vyasa explained the meaning of the Vedas. Certainly all the topics of the Vedas have been established in the Puranas."

Since AUM/OM is shortest version of Veda,women and shudras are not allowed to recit such mantra.

For Srivaishnavism(the vaishnava tradition that I follow), reciting AUM is allowed only to qualified personal.

Regards,
Orlando.

Agnideva
30 January 2007, 06:42 AM
Since AUM/OM is shortest version of Veda,women and shudras are not allowed to recit such mantra.

For Srivaishnavism(the vaishnava tradition that I follow), reciting AUM is allowed only to qualified personal.

Regards,
Orlando.
Namaste Orlando,

If the orthodox tradition you follow doesn't even allow you to chant AUM, what are you allowed to chant?

Regards,
A.

orlando
30 January 2007, 12:31 PM
Namaste Orlando,

If the orthodox tradition you follow doesn't even allow you to chant AUM, what are you allowed to chant?

Regards,
A.


I do Rama-Nama.

If someone here doesn't know what it is Rama-Nama I will explain it now:it means to recite/chant continually the word Rama.
Others call it Ram-Nam and recit Ram

I prefer to recite Rama.

There are no restrictions and rules for such mantra.

It may be recited even in the rest room!

If someone recite Rama-Nama 960.000.000 times,he/she will have the darshan(vision) of Lord Rama.

The most important mantra in Sri Vaishnavism is Om Namo Narayanaya

There are two Sri Vaishnava sects:Vadakalai and Tenkalai.

Vadakalai doesn't allow to recite the whole mantra to shudras and women.It is allowed only Namo Narayana.

Tenkalai allow to women and shudras to recite the whole mantra Om Namo Narayanaya.

Regards,
Orlando.

Agnideva
30 January 2007, 05:05 PM
I do Rama-Nama.

If someone here doesn't know what it is Rama-Nama I will explain it now:it means to recite/chant continually the word Rama.
Others call it Ram-Nam and recit Ram

I prefer to recite Rama.

There are no restrictions and rules for such mantra.

It may be recited even in the rest room!

If someone recite Rama-Nama 960.000.000 times,he/she will have the darshan(vision) of Lord Rama.
Namaste Orlando,

Thanks for the response. So, does that mean that Sri-Vaishnavism considers Rama’s name less holy than the AUM/OM?

Regards,
A.

orlando
31 January 2007, 12:21 PM
So, does that mean that Sri-Vaishnavism considers Rama’s name less holy than the AUM/OM?

Regards,
A.

I am not able to answer correctly to your question.

You should ask such question to a learned Sri vaishnava.

Regards,
Orlando.