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Pra4ash
24 July 2011, 08:26 PM
Namaste - are all the Puranas based on examples? I mean, is it all imaginative and fictatious as means to convey the Vedic scriptures?
Thank you.

Prakash.

Onkara
25 July 2011, 04:25 AM
Namaste - are all the Puranas based on examples? I mean, is it all imaginative and fictitious as means to convey the Vedic scriptures?
Thank you.

Prakash.

Welcome to the forum Pra4ash! :)
I feel you can approach it like that. They certainly express profound philosophy, found in Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads which I have had the fortune to read.

Similar to a fruit tree, take what is ripe and leave what you cannot digest. Each to their own :)

yajvan
25 July 2011, 01:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Some say the purāṇa-s are purāpi navam purāṇaṁ meaning,
although they are ancient (purā), of olden times (purāṇaṁ) they overflow (pi) anew (navam)

That is, they are relevant to the time. This is of key import, of relevant time... let me explain. I wrote the following on another post:

purāṇa - compiled by vyāsa-ji to address 5 topics (pañcalakṣaṇa)
purāṇa-s are 18 in number (the major ones, as there are minor ones also)
Gouped in 3 divisions
rājasa exalting brahmā
sāttvika exalting viṣṇu
tāmasa exalting śiva
People have come to think then that the divisions listed above ( sāttvika, rājasa, tāmasa) are qualities of the Supreme as brahmā, viṣṇu, and śiva. This would be a major mis-undertanding and a blemish that would carry into one's talks and discussions.

How can the Supreme have these qualities when It is beyond the 3 guna's ? This then cannot not be. What then is the alignment to the devatā ? Why would the wise group them in this method?

It is our qualities the wise are suggesting , not the Supreme's. For those steeped in tāmasa then the groupings of śiva purāṇa are most aligned; if one is of sāttvika, then the viṣṇu purāṇa-s apply. Like that, this is the wisdom of the groupings.

Now there is one more idea to this too. Based upon the age or yuga¹ it is said that a particular group of purāṇa-s are most effective. So as the tāmasic age ( kali) then there is an alignment to the śiva purāṇa-s that is most appropriate; in satya yuga then the viṣṇu purāṇa-s apply.

praṇām

words

fyi on different spellings that some times re confused with
puraṇa - is the ocean, the sea.
pūraṇa - filling , completing , satisfying causing , effecting
yuga-s

1. kṛta or satya yuga
2. tretā yuga
3. dvāpara yuga
4. kali yuga

smaranam
25 July 2011, 02:17 PM
Namaste

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the Channa avatar (hidden avatAr) came to the rescue of Kali Yugis with the special mercy , investing potency in the Holy Names of KrushNa.

Even otherwise, Narad Muni's advice / instruction for Kali Yug

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

“‘In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari.’

- BRuhad NAradIya PurAn 38.126

As such, Shrimad BhAgvat MahAPurAN, the crown jewel of all SAttvic PurANs is shuddha-sattvic, or full of vishuddha sattva, is highly recommended, and includes history of manvantars (eras of Manus, prajapatis) as well as histories of VishNu avatArs. Yet, it so much for this Yug, because its main essence and purpose is to read KRSNa kathA - Canto 10 (KrushNas tu BhagavAn svayam), otherwise would we have BhAgvat kathAs at every corner ?


praNAm

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

yajvan
25 July 2011, 02:34 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Namaste YajvanJi and others

Please. noooooo :o
Not necessarily.

You see, I am not saying this is the only way. I am informing the reader of the logic on how the purāṇa-s are outlined and the logic to their groupings.

I respect your choice and your approach. If I read the śrīmad bhāgavata mahāpurāṇa the wise words are there. If I read the śiva purāṇa the wise words are there. They are there to uplift the individual to a higher level of Being.

praṇām

smaranam
25 July 2011, 02:37 PM
Prescription for Kali Yug in Kali Santarana Upanishad #103 of KrushNa Yajur Ved :


http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/library/KalisantaranaUp.txt
"At the end of Dvapara Yuga, Narada, after traveling the world,
approached Lord Brahma and asked him: 'How may I overcome the (evil
effects of) the Kali Yuga?'" - 1
"Brahma said: 'You have asked me an excellent question. I shall reveal
to you the secret of all Vedas, by which you will cross over the
(ocean of) samsara filled with the bad effects of the Kali Yuga. This
secret must be preserved and protected.'" - 2

bhagavata AdipuruShasya nArAyaNasya nAmoccAraNamAtreNa nirdhRtakalir bhavati| nAradah punah papraccha tannAma kimiti | 3
"'By merely uttering the names of the Primeval Purusha, who is
Bhagavan Narayana, one is freed from the clutches of Kali.' Narada
asked again: 'What are those names of Narayana?'"

sa hovaca hiraNyagarbhah |
hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare |
hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare |
iti ShoDaSakam nAmnAm kalikalmaShanASanam |
nAtah parataropAyah sarvavedeShu dRSyate | 4
"Lord Brahma said: 'O Hari, O Rama, O Hari, O Rama, O Rama O Rama, O
Hari, O Hari! O Hari, O Krishna, O Hari, O Krishna, O Krishna O
Krishna, O Hari, O Hari! This collection of sixteen names (of
Narayana) destroys the evils of the Kali Yuga. I don't see any other
effective means (of liberation) in the Vedas.'"

Note: Gaudiyas chant this mantra by reversing the order of the two
halves, i.e. the Hare Krishna first and then the Hare Rama.

"'(This mantra) destroys the sixteen kalas of the jiva, beginning with
the prana, which constitute the veil of ignorance. Then the Supreme
Brahman shines forth, just as the solar disc shines forth brilliantly
when the clouds vanish.'"
"Narada asked: 'O Bhagavan, what are the regulations or injunctions to
be followed in chanting these names?' Brahma said: 'There are no
regulations to be followed.'"

"'By chanting these names always, whether in a clean or unclean state,
a brahmana obtains the four kinds of liberation, sAlokya, sAmIpya,
sArUpya and sAyujya.'"

Notes:
1) sAlokya - living in the abode of God
2) sAmIpya - living in the proximity of God
3) sArupya - living with a form identical with God
4) sAyujya - merging with the body of God

"'When a brahmana chants this mantra of sixteen names, for a total of
one and one half crore times, he becomes free from the sin of killing
a brahmaNa. He overcomes the sin of neglecting his domestic fire.'"
"'He becomes free from the sin of stealing gold. He becomes free from
the offenses committed against forefathers, Gods and human beings.'"
"'He quickly becomes free from the sin of giving up all religious
duties. He becomes liberated immediately; he becomes liberated
immediately. Thus the Upanishad.'"


hare kRSNa hare kRSNa kRSNa kRSNa hare hare
hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare

praNAm

yajvan
25 July 2011, 02:42 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté smaranam

If we were in the vaiṣṇava folder of HDF then your view is 100% correct and would go uncontested. I leave you to your choices and do as you see fit.

praṇām

smaranam
25 July 2011, 02:43 PM
respect your choice and your approach. If I read the śrīmad bhāgavata mahāpurāṇa the wise words are there. If I read the śiva purāṇa the wise words are there. They are there to uplift the individual to a higher level of Being.

Namaste, that is true, i agree :)

Knowing you would perhaps be one of the last to emphasize on a way, the rest of my post was for the OP of course - as one solution to the nature of Kali Yug, and also to answer the original qn on puranas -
that there is the manvantara (era) history - not necessarily in chronological order, but covering a major expanse of the cycles of creation. So mega-history and meta-history included with the stories.

praNAm

smaranam
25 July 2011, 03:00 PM
sa hovaca hiraNyagarbhah |
hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare |
hare kRShNa hare kRShNa kRShNa kRShNa hare hare |
iti ShoDaSakam nAmnAm kalikalmaShanASanam |
nAtah parataropAyah sarvavedeShu dRSyate | 4
"Lord Brahma said: 'O Hari, O Rama, O Hari, O Rama, O Rama O Rama, O
Hari, O Hari! O Hari, O Krishna, O Hari, O Krishna, O Krishna O
Krishna, O Hari, O Hari! This collection of sixteen names (of
Narayana) destroys the evils of the Kali Yuga. I don't see any other
effective means (of liberation) in the Vedas.'"

Namaste

This was given as ref. to prescribed methods of VishNu bhakti in Kali Yug, despite the tAmasic nature of this Yug, and can be understood in context of the ways Shri Hari was worshipped in other yugs:

dvAparIyair janair viShNuh
pancarAtraistu kevalaih
kalau tu nAmamAtreNa
pUjyate bhagavAn harih ||

"In the Dvapara Yuga, people worshiped Vishnu according to the
principles described in the Pancaratra. In the Kali Yuga, Bhagavan
Hari is to be worshiped simply by chanting His names."

- NArAyaN SamhitA


Sorry i did not make it clear first. Apologies.

praNAm

yajvan
17 October 2014, 07:43 PM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~

namasté

I wrote on another string... (also see post 3 above)



The purÄṇa-s are a puraṇa¹ (ocean) of knowledge. The purÄṇa-s belong to ancient times; PurÄṇa as a noun are a class of sacred works managed/organized by vyÄsa.

There are 18 main purÄṇas ( some like to call these the mahÄpurÄṇa-s ) and are grouped in the following manner:
· that of brahmÄ e.g. the brahma , brahmÄṇá¸a , brahmavaivarta , mÄrkaṇá¸eya , bhaviá¹£ya , & vÄmana purÄṇa-s
· that of viṣṇu e.g. the viṣṇu , bhÄgavata , nÄradÄ«ya , garuá¸a , padma , & varÄha purÄṇa-s
· that of Å›iva e.g. the Å›iva , liá¹…ga , skanda , agni or in place of it the vÄyu , matsya , & kÅ«rma purÄṇa-s

We are informed that they too are called out in this manner:

rÄjasapurÄṇa-s for the brahmapurÄṇa-s
sÄttvikapurÄṇa-s for the viṣṇupurÄṇa-s
tÄmasapurÄṇa-s for the of Å›ivapurÄṇa-sNow it seems that many see the tri-guna listing (rÄjas, sÄttva, tÄmas) and assign some mental value to these terms. It is quite easy to comprehend the notion of sÄttva for the viṣṇupurÄṇa-s, but when it comes to the rÄjasapurÄṇa-s and (especially) the tÄmasapurÄṇa-s our understanding tends to fall short.

So, with that let me ask the HDF reader regarding this matter. Many refer to the bhÄgavad gÄ«tÄ to align their thinking regarding the values placed on rÄjas, sÄttva, & tÄmas – and from this point of view sÄttva is the one that is most admirable. Yet how can brahma let alone Å›iva be aligned with any quality that would be considered less then uplifting and noble by nature ?

Many read or hear (even on HDF) the notion of tÄmasapurÄṇa and then assume that Å›iva too must be of this tÄmasic quality ( a negative view no less). So, can one explain this ? What insight is one missing regarding this notion ? Or perhaps you think there is none ?

praṇÄm

words
· puraṇa - rooted (√) in pá¹ the sea , ocean , not to be confused with purÄṇa meaning ancient or old

the purÄṇa-s typically discuss 5 topics (pañca-laká¹£aṇa) - that is:
the creation of the universe - sarga or letting go , discharging i.e. creation
its destruction and renovation . This is called prati-sarga : prati or back , again , in return + sarga or letting go , discharging = additional creations, recreations
the genealogy of the devatÄ & sages i.e. lineage or families, and this is called vaṃśa
the reigns of the manu-s - the various epochs and rulers of these times - (if I am correct, manu+antara = manvañtara )
manu-antara = manu , father of the human race + antara is interval, term, period or duration.
the history ~lineage~ of the solar and lunar races ; genealogy of kings - vaṃśa-nucarita

yajvan
19 October 2014, 11:29 PM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~

namasté

I wrote in post 10 above,


Many read or hear (even on HDF) the notion of tÄmasapurÄṇa and then assume that Å›iva too must be of this tÄmasic quality ( a negative view no less). So, can one explain this ? What insight is one missing regarding this notion ?

There are a few things one can say about this matter, and it will be needed to sew the ideas together for the full picture to be shown i.e. from the sÄá¹…khya school ( some write sÄá¹khya¹ ), kaÅ›mir Å›aivism , and perhaps a few others as needed. So, there will be some foundational information, then some advanced thinking for those who have the appetite for this level of knowledge.

First we know that the 3 guna-s (rÄjas, sÄttva, tÄmas ) roll up under the tattva called praká¹›ti. This word if taken apart reveals its meaning pra + ká¹›ti = filling or fulfilling + creation . Hence praká¹›ti is that which ‘fills’ creation. It is the ~source~ of creation ( we will use this idea in a following post).
Within this source all the tattva-s, from a sÄá¹khya point of view, unfold. That would be 23 of them in this school. A total of 25 are listed¹.

This then suggests that this quality of the 3 guna-s (rÄjas, sÄttva, tÄmas ) permeate creation. We can see then from an associative point of view i.e. not being excessively critical , why brahmÄ ( as creator) and Å›iva ( as destroyer) and viṣṇu ( as maintainer) would be involved.
Why so ? Because this is what occurs in our universe every day. Creation-maintenance-destruction, and the ~owners~ are brahmÄ, viṣṇu and Å›iva. Note these are qualities of the Supreme being used here.
These qualities are not only out there is space, but in us, and in our environment. Let me explain. Each thought you have has this sequence – it is created, it stays for a bit and then it is gone.
So, this sequence occurs (brahmÄ -> viṣṇu -> Å›iva ). It occurs when you open your eyes and close your eyes, when you are in wake-dream-sleep consciousness; this sequence is in your growth. You are born , you maintain, then you pass on . Of course this is the body part of you that is made of the tattva-s.
And what of nature ? A tree comes from a seed, it grows, blooms, then finally dies and the elements all return to their respective tattva-s.
So, this sequence of create->maintain->destroy has been somewhat established. When it comes to the 3 guna-s (rÄjas, sÄttva, tÄmas ) we too can align these qualities to brahmÄ, viṣṇu, and Å›iva.

So let’s take a closer look at these definitions for each one. We find entry level/mundane definitions of passion, goodness and darkness for the 3 (rÄjas, sÄttva, tÄmas). These qualities may be there but are not the full story.

rÄjas – is an active agent; it is associate with activity. It is a promoter of movement.
sÄttva – is associated with balance; even-ness. It has the ability to purify and balance.
tÄmas – is associated with inaction, with stillnessNow let’s consider brahmÄ, viṣṇu and Å›iva again. But with the awareness of divine intent.

When a person has the continued burning desire for liberation ( the mumukṣu) this is the most refined (śodhita) level of rajoguṇa at work
The person with the ability to discriminate (viveka) between the intellect and the non-changing Self is an expression of the most refined level sattvaguṇa at work.
The person that withdraws the mind to perfect silence, perfect inactivity is an expression of the most refined level of tamoguṇa at work.So – the connection:

brahmÄ purÄṇa-s = rÄjasapurÄṇa-s and the higher / most refined level of rajoguṇa being considered
viṣṇu purÄṇa-s = sÄttvikapurÄṇa- and the the higher / most refined level of sattvaguṇa being considered
Å›iva purÄṇa-s = tÄmasapurÄṇa-s and the the higher / most refined level of tamoguṇa being consideredHence if one ties the purÄṇa-s to the lower level definitions of the guṇa-s they have confused a diamond for a plain piece of glass.

Now is there more to this ? Yes. I will add a few more items for consideration in the next post.

praṇÄm

words

sÄá¹khya – is defined as ‘relating to a number’; it also means discrimination ; it can be ‘one who discriminates well’.
Within this school there is a ‘number’ of 25 tattva-s. Within this number we find prakṛti & puruṣa. 23 tattva-s + prakṛti & puruṣa = 25 tattva-s for this school.

yajvan
20 October 2014, 02:32 PM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~
namasté


Now is there more to this ?

rÄjas – is an active agent; it is associate with activity. It is a promoter of movement.
sÄttva – is associated with balance; even-ness. It has the ability to purify and balance.
tÄmas – is associated with inaction, with stillnessThis part is more for those that have greater interest and wish to really go deeper into this notion of the alignment of the guṇa-s to another point of view. Let me offer the following:

Within the trika ( some write tṛka) school a.k.a. kaśmir śaivism these 3 guṇa-s are seen as energies.

icchÄ Å›akti brings forth or expresses itself as rÄjas or rajoguṇa
icchÄ Å›akti = energy of will and is considered para (the highest)
jñÄna Å›akti brings forth or expresses itself as sÄttva or sattvaguṇa

jñÄna Å›akti = energy of knowledge and is considered parÄpara ( middlemost)
kriyÄ Å›akti brings forth or expresses itself as tÄmas or tamoguṇa

kriyÄ Å›akti = the energy of action and is considered Äpara (or entry level)
And it just so happens these 3 energies (Å›akti) align to the the upÄya-s (methods , or ways) that one can engage in to re-recognize their essential, stainless nature:

Å›ÄmbhavopÄya originates in icchÄ Å›akti
Å›ÄktopÄya originates in jñÄna Å›akti
ÄnavopÄya originates in kriyÄ Å›akti( for more on these 3 upÄya-s see this HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=13352&page=2 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=13352&page=2) , post 14 and 16)


Now the ~secret~ of these upÄya-s is ÄnavopÄya leads to (deposits one) into Å›ÄktopÄya; Å›ÄktopÄya deposits one into Å›ÄmbhavopÄya;
and Å›ÄmbhavopÄya deposits one into anupÄya which I did not discuss as it is called the ‘no means’ i.e. nothing need to be done at this level.

So, the reader should be getting a feeling that the guṇa-s and their alignment have a greater depth and breadth beyond ‘this is good, this is bad’.

It is said , this knowledge is helpful for those that know and brings little for those that are ignorant. The point here is the depth and breadth of knowledge of our Ägama-s and Å›Ästra-s is profound. It covers the full range of life, both mundane and spiritual. The purÄṇa-s reside within this body of knowledge and they address the full spectrum of wisdom. They are here for our use. No word of idea is randomly chosen – it is all for our upliftment and development.

Hence , how then can any of these books take on the negative aspect of rajoguṇa or tamoguṇa ? It must be from the observer’s side that something is out of alignment.


Is there more we can talk about regarding this matter ? Yes, but I will leave it for now.

praṇÄm

ajreddy
21 October 2014, 04:39 PM
Namaste yajvanji
Thank you for your wonderful explanation.
My other question to you would be. Are you sure that most puranas have been transferred through the generations unaltered?
I have read in padmapurana that tamasa puranas lead to hell while rajasa puranas lead to discontentment,.
Now why would vyasa write puranas that send people to hell? Why should he spend so much energy if the sole intention is to send people to hell?
Such atrocious statements in puranas make me wonder if they were altered by people to suit their belief systems?

These days i find many verses in puranas which i think were manufactured by those lines of faith to get a mass following.
Some one from sahaja yoga showed me verses from bhavishya purana predicting the birth of nirmala devi? While someone showed me verses predicting chaintanya of bengal as an incarnation of krishna. when i checked those verses carefully i found they were not present in the original manuscripts but were added later.
Now how can one trust solely by intuition what he reads online belong to original manuscripts?

My other question to you would be how would you deal with ignorant people who consider themselves the supreme devotees of god just because they follow some rituals given in those books?
Can devotion without knowledge lead to liberation?
I have been to some temples where i was flabbergasted at the ideas of some, who say people who worship krishna attain goloka while those worshipping shiva or others will have to take millions of births only to worship krishna again.
How fair are such assumptions and how do you deal with such people?

yajvan
22 October 2014, 07:35 PM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~
namasté


My other question to you would be. Are you sure that most puranas have been transferred through the generations unaltered?
Now how can one trust solely by intuition what he reads online belong to original manuscripts?

My other question to you would be how would you deal with ignorant people who consider themselves the supreme devotees of god just because they follow some rituals given in those books?
Can devotion without knowledge lead to liberation?
I have been to some temples where i was flabbergasted at the ideas of some, who say people who worship krishna attain goloka while those worshipping shiva or others will have to take millions of births only to worship krishna again.
How fair are such assumptions and how do you deal with such people?

You have asked some good questions. I cannot say with any level of certainty that the purÄṇas have not been altered here and there.

You mention how can one trust solely by intuition what one reads? This can be answered via the notion of á¹›tam.

This á¹›ta is defined as right, or proper yet means enlightened , luminous, insightful, sincere, unblemished. Some call it unalloyed or pure.
But it is much more - it is called out in the yogadarÅ›ana of patañjali ( the yoga-sÅ«tra-s) Chapt 1, 48th sÅ«tra, as á¹›tam-bharÄ prajñÄ. This means essential cognition i.e. how one perceives the world, is filled with truth. Let's look a bit deeper:

á¹›tam ऋतमà¥+ bharÄ à¤­à¤°+ prajÃ±Ä à¤ªà¥à¤°à¤œà¥à¤£à¤¾ = á¹›tam (luminous, insightful unalloyed, pure) + bharÄ ( bearing, bestowing, carrying) + pra (great) + jÃ±Ä ( to know). One perceives only the Truth. Some call this unalloyed, unvarnished great truth and becomes a part of one's daily vision. This is the practical value of knowledge + experience.
So, when one is reading our purÄṇas and being established in this á¹›tam, you will only extract the truth.

Regarding people's actions and what they think. Let me address this in another post.




praṇÄm

Pra4ash
16 August 2015, 04:52 AM
Namaste Yajvan ji,
It's unacceptable to reply to your very detailed response after such a long time, but I hope that you'll receive my sincere gratitude - Thank You
I have to admit, that much of the conversation was beyond my simple understanding , and will take this as a divine calling to improve my knowledge in this vast ocean of Hindu Dharma

pranam

the student,
Prakash

Red_Drag0n
16 December 2015, 05:25 AM
Aren't the Puranas of Divine Origin ?

yajvan
16 December 2015, 01:57 PM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~
namasté


First let me confuse the conversation just for a moment …

you mention,
Aren't the Puranas of Divine Origin ?

There is nothing I know of that is not of divine origin… from a particle to a wave to a galaxy; even ‘nothing’ (śūnyá) is of divine origin.
Yet that only confuses the conversation a bit, but is the highest truth I know…others may vary in their opinion on this matter.

Now that said back to the purÄṇa-s and the idea at hand. There’s generally two methods of the ~authorship~ of knowledge transfer

śruti
This term śruti means ‘that which is heard’ ; it is considered apauruṣeya (author-less) meaning no one ( human) sat down and remembered it or
crafted this knowledge. The knowledge was cognized¹ by our seers (ṛishi-s) of pure awareness . It was ‘heard’ or ‘seen’ in their inner awareness.
This body of knowledge is known to be the veda-s, yet there are other Å›Ästra-s and Ägama-s that fall into this category of being purely heard or cognized¹.
Said another way, the seer tunes into this knowledge, he/she does not create it, but ~ listens in~ to this level of knowledge that exists.

smá¹›ti
This term smṛti = ‘that which is remembered’ and suggests there are authors to these various bodies of knowledge.
Example: the MahÄbhÄrata is authored by veda-vyÄsa, also known as kṛṣṇa dvaipÄyana; he also happens to be the author ( compiler or a vyÄsa)
of the 18 purÄṇa-s. VÄlmÄ«ki was the composer of the rÄmÄyaṇa and falls within the smá¹›ti catagory.

Hence the purÄṇa-s fall within the domain of smá¹›ti .


yatastvaṠśivasamo'si

1. cognized – see post 14 above and the notion of á¹›tam-bharÄ prajñÄ. This means essential cognition i.e. how one perceives the world, is filled with truth

Soul of Light
17 December 2015, 06:04 AM
Namaste all!!
First of all thank you so much yajvan Ji for this knowledge.. I learned many things although many are beyond my limited knowledge to understand..

I have no right to talk on scriptures as I have read only 1 puran upanishad and geeta yet.. But sharing my views and correcting them by listening yours will increase my knowledge..

Puranas always confused me, even reading this thread my confusion till not gone.. So asking some question and sharing my understanding on them.. Hope members will tell me where I am wrong specially you yajvan ji..

I have a questions which may be common.. 1. Is they really are written by ved vyasa Ji??
I heard somewhere they are written by different peoples??
If they are written by ved vyasa Ji then why they all are much different?

If I try to answer my question which I do most of time (:p)-
I believe that there is much difference in Upanishads and puranas, (as yajvan ji pointed on smriti and shruti) I found more knowledge in Upanishads but in puranas there are only stories of particularly one deity and say to worship only that deity and if you worship other then its waste of time...

I am just in confusion and more I am getting deep more I am feeling confused.. I think purana are made for normal people one can say beginer in spiritual path while upanishad is for one who already established and experienced spirituality like wise brahmin..

So I think purpose of puranas are for making normal people to realise highest truth and hence it is more focused on devotion rather than knowledge..
Devotion is key, if one have devotion and surrender then knowledge, vairagya and other things come gradually and for devotion its necessary that one must concentrated on one particular deity (brahma, Vishnu or Shiva)

We all knows that brahma Vishnu Shiva Krishna devi ma all are one and only one.. The wise sees no difference in any one of them but it comes with experience with the supreme bliss of that God, if we say to beginner that all are one then he will say its foolish, he may agree and accept that but he will not realised it, he will not experience it..
So, for raising ones devotion to the one supreme deity I think puranas are made wisely by telling story of only one deity, by telling the benefit of worshipping him and no other deity to ensure that the reader will develope the true love and devotion for that particular deity..

So my this thinking tells my mind why they are different from puranas also why they are so concentrated on Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva..

But, then another question! Why all 18 puranas doesn't concentrate on 1 deity, isn't its simple? Why there is necessity of split them in three?

I understand Yajvan jis insight on gunas and how they classified according to gunas of reader, yuga and age..(still not satisfied)
Okay.. Again trying my old method to answer myself..
Prakriti is made up of three gunas and each one of us have them in some different proportions.. Some have sattva dominant while some have tamas dominant.. As all know.. Like that if one observes, there is so much difference in forms of Shiva Vishnu or Brahma Ji.. Some may attract to form of Vishnu Ji while some to Shiva Ji according to their gunas (as each form have some deeper and subconscious meaning promoting some guna which we recognised and attract subconsciously) in simple words take an example of book of cooking.. What written in that book.? Just cooking and recipes but in some there is only veg in some there is Chinese, Italian or Indian.. The person who love Chinese will not bought Italian book but its not mean Chinese is better that other books.. It's just his choice.. Okay going so much off topic..

I just wanted to say the prakriti contains this gunas and if anyone is absent then prakriti will destroy.. Again take example of cooking, all elements should be in proportion.. You can't make delicious food by adding only sweet or by adding only spicy.. Even human is not same at all time in all situations, he needs different gunas. You are the same but still sometime you are angry sometime happy and sometime sad.. Isn't the same person have different attributes? Then why one God can't have so many forms?
It's just depend on situation which guna you should have, like in battle Arjuna doesn't stop fighting by leading to akarma or due to plenty of mercy he felt before battle.. Is it not according to situation?
Assume if all are purely tamasik (inaction) then earth will destroy as no one will do anything.. If all sat and meditate like shiv ji then who will grow crops and who will make food? Like that if all are so much active and there is lack of stillness then also this sansar will not run smoothly..

So all elements are essential, this fight is just useless! All puranas are supreme and what written in them is true..
But this adversity have so much confusion for beginner like me.. If I read Vishnu purana and then directly shiv purana then I will definately be confused..
What I conclude (otherwise I will keep talking :p) is that we have to choose which purana is suitable for us and just follow puranas related to them, once you achieve enough devotion, knowledge and experience to understand oneness of God then you can take knowledge from other puranas so one will not get confused by them as one already has the shield of awareness with him...

This all things come in my mind when I read this thread and I wrote them all (still many things I don't write) sorry for making it too large.. Please tell me what I am thinking is right? What should I add in this? Or this is totally wrong thinking?
Pranam... :)

yajvan
17 December 2015, 11:22 AM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~
namasté


First let me applaud your efforts to answer your own questions... This is like the guest that come's to one's home and brings something with, some offer - this is very good.

This confusion you mention is the ladle that stirs the soup. See it as 'okay' as it brings doubts up from the bottom of the soup - so not to worry.

God with many forms
He is only one , niḥśeṣa – w/o remainder, finished, complete, total, but expresses Him-self in many ways. This principle is called out in our upaniṣad-s
as unity within diversity... the 'many' we see is really only one; this comes with development of consciousness. It is not 'logic chopping' or some
intellectual gymnastics that one performs. With the recognition of one's Self ( pure Being, pure consciosuness) as a direct and personal experience,
this becomes one's daily reality.

3 Guna-s
Note that no 1 guna can be missing. They are 3 and remain 3 all the time, yet in different proportions. Yet we are told to be without the 3 guna-s. How is that possible? By being possessed of the Self, Being, That-ness. This is where people get a brain cramp as it is not an every-day selection oh, okay I will be without the 3 gunas now. It does not occur like that. To be without them it to be anchored in pure awareness 7 days a week , 24 ours a day. It is a real experience one can have - hence spiritual practices are done for this. But note the following.... you are that already. You cannot become something you are not. All it takes it getting the 'me' out of the way so this Self is predominant. This 'me' or ego, or limitation
is just one ray of it; We want all of it to shine and then we 'get it' , we comprehend our true nature.

The purÄṇa-s
you menton,

But, then another question! Why all 18 puranas doesn't concentrate on 1 deity, isn't its simple? Why there is necessity of split them in three?
They do concentrate on 1, but in 18 different ways! It is like a person looking out from 1 building, but moving to 18 different windows to look out.
There are so many humans and views, that the wise tries to cover all the ways one may 'taste' the Supreme. All have different tastes, backgrounds and the like.

The beginner
If there is some discomfort in one's comprehension it suggests to me that a more basic approach is needed. I Find this more often than not that those new to this
vision of the Supreme bites off a bit too much - like drinking from a fire hose, it is too much to take in. So, one needs to find a place to sip, ponder and consider.
I always recommend to get comfortable with the 6 systems of Indian philosophy. Some additional ideas ( along with the 6 systems' author) can be found here:
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?14305-New-comer-questions .

...well begun is half done.

yatastvaṠśivasamo'si

Soul of Light
17 December 2015, 11:44 AM
Namaste Ji,
Thank you so much for your knowledgeable reply.. It's nice to see you posting..
Pranam...

Red_Drag0n
19 December 2015, 02:57 AM
~~~~~~
There is nothing I know of that is not of divine origin… from a particle to a wave to a galaxy; even ‘nothing’ (śūnyá) is of divine origin.

Hare Krishna . Thank you for answering my query . By divine i meant , did the knowledge of the Puranas came down from above (from God) ? ... or are they fictitious / poetic works of the poets / sages ... Now it seems you already answered that below , so lets scroll down :)


śruti
This term śruti means ‘that which is heard’ ; it is considered apauruṣeya (author-less) meaning no one ( human) sat down and remembered it or
crafted this knowledge. The knowledge was cognized¹ by our seers (ṛishi-s) of pure awareness . It was ‘heard’ or ‘seen’ in their inner awareness.
This body of knowledge is known to be the veda-s, yet there are other Å›Ästra-s and Ägama-s that fall into this category of being purely heard or cognized¹.
Said another way, the seer tunes into this knowledge, he/she does not create it, but ~ listens in~ to this level of knowledge that exists.

So sruti is a form of revelation right ? Like such knowledge were revealed to the ancient sages by God , or by the Demigods , either by auditary revelation or by visual revelation . Am i right ?


smá¹›ti
This term smṛti = ‘that which is remembered’ and suggests there are authors to these various bodies of knowledge.
Example: the MahÄbhÄrata is authored by veda-vyÄsa, also known as kṛṣṇa dvaipÄyana; he also happens to be the author ( compiler or a vyÄsa)
of the 18 purÄṇa-s. VÄlmÄ«ki was the composer of the rÄmÄyaṇa and falls within the smá¹›ti catagory.

Hence the purÄṇa-s fall within the domain of smá¹›ti .

Now here you have mentioned that the Puranas fall under the smriti category (wiki says the same thing) , since they are the works of Vyasa . Now the question arises where did Vyasa get this knowledge . Did God revealed the puranic knowledge to him in the form of sruti first & then Vyasa remembered it in the form of smriti and wrote it down ?
Is that what might have happened back then ?
For example The puranas includes topics like cosmology , stating the position of lokas and planets , especally bhagawat puran and vishnu puran . Where do u think such valuable knowledge came from . In my opinion , they ought to be divine and were revealed to the sages by God , and in my opinion should be conidered Sruti . Don't u think ? :)


Also who is supreme ... Krishna or Narayana ?
Some of us consider them the same figure with different names , and some of us think that krishna is the incarnated human form of vishnu or narayana , but the ISKCON community says Krishna is the supreme being , while Narayana & Vishnu are his expansions or avataras .

According to ISKCON , the form in which he came down on earth during dwapara yuga , which is the human krishna form (two hands with darkish complexion) , is actually his true original supreme form , and this is the form which he holds while he resides in his supreme abode Goloka . That means , the lord came to earth in his original supreme krishna form , just like the way he actually is while he stays in Goloka .
Under Goloka , there are many lokas or dhams , like vaikuntha loka , ayodhya dham etc. where his expansions or different roopas resides . This is according to the ISKCON community .
Whereas The Puranas speak of Narayana as the supreme being . Narayana has a bluish complexion with 4 hands , contrary to Krishna's two hands & dark complexion . Im a little confused here . Can u throw some light on this matter , like who's the supreme . Thanks

devotee
19 December 2015, 09:11 PM
Namaste,

I don't think I can explain it better than Yajvan ji but I would like to say something in this regard as I see it.

a) There are many paths within Hinduism and they have their differing views regarding how God is perceived by them. Why do these scriptures have differing views ? To cater to the needs of devotees having differences in their beliefs and comfort in dealing with a particular of form of God. Some are comfortable by seeing God as Father figure, some may feel more comfortable with Mother figure and within those figures also some people may be more comfortable than the other forms. If you read different PurANas, you will find that different PurANas describe different forms of God as the Supreme. Vaishnava PurANas describe Vishnu as the supreme whereas the Shaiva PurANas describe Shiva as the supreme. Still there is something which binds together the whole Hindu Dharma with some great wisdom acting as substratum for all the knowledge in all those scriptures.

There is no separate being acting as God high up in the sky and yet God incarnates in varying forms ... God is also revealed in pure minds of seekers. Now, God aka the Truth aka the highest Reality cannot be grasped by mind or sense organs as It really is. It is not possible. You can realise God as God It is Only by being one with Him/It. But that state is very difficult to reach and is possible to any person only after many births of seeking God / the Truth in right earnest. Before reaching that state one ascends may stages of spirituality and has varying perceptions of God during the course of his spiritual journey over many lifetimes.

b) All Astika schools of Hindu Dharma accept Vedas as the highest knowledge revealed to mankind. Vedas are not a compilation of books which were revealed to a certain person at a certain point of time. No. The knowledge contained in Vedas are always there eternally and can be revealed to you, me or anyone once we reach the desired spiritual state of mind. Within Vedas, there are four parts and the last part of the Vedas are called VedAnta i.e. End of Knowledge ... that is the highest level of knowledge and by knowing which there is nothing left to know. There is no difference between the knowledge and the knower at that point. VedAnta tell us :

i) There is only one God and that cannot be described in words. It is described as "Neti-Neti" or "Not this, Not this" .... i.e. by negation of all mental concepts.
ii) All forms are His, all organs are His ... the whole world is nothing but Him alone. You too are That. I too am That. The differences seen are due to delusion cast by the power of Nature of God.
iii) God and its creation are not separate ... they can never be separated. Still, God can be perceived (by individual minds) different from Its creation within relative planes of existence.

c) Now, whatever I have stated so far on Reality, you must be clear that God cannot be perceived by ordinary minds. However, there is a way out for those who need certain forms to relate to God. Mudgala Upanishad tells us that "God becomes what He is worshipped as". So, the supremacy of one form over the others is dependent on how one sees God. There is no mention of Goloka or Krishna residing there in any of the Vedas and still ISKON are not doing any mistake if they see God as Lord Krishna residing in some state called Goloka. They are right in their own way because God would act as Lord Krishna residing in Goloka for them. But that doesn't mean that Shaivas who see Supreme God in Lord Shiva residing in the Himalayas or the ShAktas seeing Goddess Durga / KAli as the supreme form of God.

Why so ? Because all these "realities" are relative realities perceived differently on One underlying Reality. You see God as Krishna Only because you want to see Him as Krishna. You see God as Shiva because you want God to see as Shiva ... you see God as Mother Durga / KAli because you want to see her in that form. The underlying Reality, the ultimate Truth is Nirguna Brahman which is without form, without attributes perceived by human minds, infinite and unchanging. It has been called AUM or the Self in VedAnta.

d) The Reality as It is can be revealed within our minds once our mind is in its purest state. That is Shruti.

e) Smriti don't reveal the Reality in such naked form because of difficulty to grasp It by ordinary minds. Smritis give you the taste of Truth in diluted form. They tell you how to be righteous, how to ascend the ladders of spirituality etc. And this knowledge has been stated in the form of stories of God, celestial beings, God's incarnations etc. Their prime aim is to show the right path to people and lead them towards God. The forms are secondary. The names of God are secondary. That is not the real aim in itself.

****************************
So, if you want to know the Reality as It is, you must study VedAnta and it is better under some Guru who has Realised God / Self / Brahman. However, if that doesn't suit you at your spiritual stage ... choose any form of God that suits you and accordingly take the smiriti that suits you. Being "Relative Reality" ... ISKCON's belief system is as right as that of the Shaivites. There is no question of any form being superior or inferior unless you want to see the reality as such. How can there be anything superior or inferior when there is but One Reality ??

There is fundamental difference between concept of God in Abrahimic religions and that in Hindu Dharma. In Abrahimic religions, Truth is revealed through His messenger(s). In Hindu Dharma, God is the Truth, God is the Reality ... and that Reality or God is accepted because It is revealed in the Vedas. Vedas are revealed in purity of mind. There is no "chosen one" here. Anybody's mind is capable of realising the same Truth.

OM

Red_Drag0n
20 December 2015, 02:49 AM
Thanks for enlightening me in this matter .
So Vedanta aka Upanishads are the storehouse of real spiritual knowledge that deals with the nature of God and Soul , Right ? Are there any english translations of the Upanishads that are unabridged & at the same time the content is in simple english ?? ... The reason i want it in simple english is because these topics are new to me and in order to grasp it completely , the more simpler the words , the better its going to be for me :)
I found a 4 volume set of the Upanishads online , that has been translated by Swami Nikhilananda . It has 1400 pages , but since i haven't read it myself i'm not sure about the content .

Does the Upanishads speak of the nature of our soul in detail ? Like i heard the soul of living entities (jeev-atma) is different than that of the three bodies in which it actually resides .
Our three bodies namely the physical body (sthula sharira) , subtle aka astral body (sookshma sharira) & causal body (karana sharira) are all different from that of the soul of the living entity (jeev-atma) . Is this true ?
Also what kind of bodies do ghosts have ? They surely don't have a physical body . So do they have subtle aka astral body (sookshma sharira) or do they have causal body (karana sharira) ?

Thanks & Hare Krishna :)

devotee
20 December 2015, 09:32 AM
Namaste RD,



So Vedanta aka Upanishads are the storehouse of real spiritual knowledge that deals with the nature of God and Soul , Right ? Are there any english translations of the Upanishads that are unabridged & at the same time the content is in simple english ?? ... The reason i want it in simple english is because these topics are new to me and in order to grasp it completely , the more simpler the words , the better its going to be for me :)
I found a 4 volume set of the Upanishads online , that has been translated by Swami Nikhilananda . It has 1400 pages , but since i haven't read it myself i'm not sure about the content .

Upanishads are not easy to understand unless you have some prior exposure to subjects they deal with. You may start with Kathopanishad. Then you may study SvetAsvatar Upanishad. After that you may study MAndukya Upanishad. If you are able to understand these Upanishads, you will have a fair idea of the knowledge imparted by VedAnta. You may study other Upanishads if you have time and interests but in my opinion, these three Upanishads are sufficient.


Does the Upanishads speak of the nature of our soul in detail ? Like i heard the soul of living entities (jeev-atma) is different than that of the three bodies in which it actually resides .
Our three bodies namely the physical body (sthula sharira) , subtle aka astral body (sookshma sharira) & causal body (karana sharira) are all different from that of the soul of the living entity (jeev-atma) . Is this true ?

Upanishads talk about the highest Truth. The three bodies that you describe are covered under 5 Koshas which are described in Taitriya Upanishad. Sthula Sharira is your physical body and you look as you see yourself in a mirror in this life. Sukshma Sharira is the subtle body which is made up of Vital force, observing mind and intellect. This body, in reality, has no form but due to impressions of its gross body in its mind and attachment, Jeeva, the entity perceives itself as such.


Also what kind of bodies do ghosts have ? They surely don't have a physical body . So do they have subtle aka astral body (sookshma sharira) or do they have causal body (karana sharira) ?

Jeeva in Sukshma Shariras can live in higher celestial planes or remain bound to earth. Ghosts have subtle bodies and they are bound to earth due to their strong attachment with earthly things / unfulfilled desires and their own Karmas. KArana sharira is the primordial cause behind all Shariras and therefore it is there in all Shariras. However, there is something beyond this Sharira too and that is unconditioned Brahman.

OM

yajvan
20 December 2015, 11:12 AM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~
namasté

Here’s some additional points of consideration to extend/add to what devotee has offered:

The upaniá¹£ad-s - which one’s to read? ÅšrÄ« RÄmaḥ gives his recommendation to HanumÄn-ji:
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?4617-10-upani%E1%B9%A3ad-s-worth-studying

Where do the upaniá¹£ad-s fit within the body of scriptures ( Å›Ästra-s) found within sanÄtana dharma ( some call Ärá¹£a dharma or derived from the rishi’s) , consider this post: http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthr...ighlight=ocean (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?1946-An-Ocean-of-Knowledge&highlight=ocean)


Yet after reading many will say ‘ I don’t get it’ - this is reviewed here:
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?3730-I-Don-t-Get-It&highlight=dharma


You see, you will find that one’s expansion of awareness which in turn gives the expansion of comprehension also needs
to be groomed to ‘get’ the knowledge offered. Knowledge is structured in consciousness is the point being made ;
or said a bit differently consciousness is the foundation of knowledge. It goes hand-in-hand.

yatastvaṠśivasamo'si

Red_Drag0n
21 December 2015, 04:40 AM
Dear Devotee and Yajvan ,

Any particular author that you might want to recommend me , when it comes to reading the Upanishads ?
I know Mr.Yajvan said in another post , that we should read translated works of different authors to churn out the real meaning from sanskrit texts . But for the time being i would like to start by grabbing a version of the Mukhya / Main Upanishads , that's unabridged & has a simple english translation by a decent author . That would suffice me for the time being :)

And i would definitely read the Kathopanishad , Mandukya and Svetasvata upanishads as Devotee suggested . But i'm also dying to read the Taitriya Upanishad . Thanks to devotee for suggesting me the Taitriya .
So does the Taitriya upanishad explain in detail about the 5 koshas , about the 5 types of prana , about the various functions of the subtle body ??

I was reading a book by Swami Abhedananda (disciple of Swami RamaKrishna of Bengal) where he mentions the qualities and properties of a subtle body . He says that a subtle body has the following -

* mind , intellect , ego , memory .
* 5 senses of perception (sight , sound , touch , taste , smell) .
* 5 organs of action: speech, hands, legs, anus and genitals)
* 5 types of Prana-Shakti : Prana (respiration), Apana (evacuation of waste from the body), Vyana (blood circulation), Udana (actions like sneezing, crying, vomiting etc), Samana (digestion)

Swami Abhedananda in his book mentions only this much & didin't explain anything in detail like how does a subtle body performs these actions ... or how these actions performed by the subtle body differs from the actions performed by the physical body .
I mean , all that a subtle body can do , the physical body can do as well . So where's the difference .
Does the Upanishads explain this difference in detail ?

Also the thing that i found most shocking , is that , the subtle body can also evacuate waste products . This task is perfomed by the prana shakti called Apana . Now in my opinion , i don't think a subtle body (after the death of its physical body) would need food to survive and therefore wouldn't produce waste products either .
Does the Upanishads explain in detail how a subtle body can perform the function of evacuating waste products ?

Thanks :)

yajvan
21 December 2015, 02:09 PM
hariḥ oá¹
~~~~~~
namasté


Dear Devotee and Yajvan ,

Any particular author that you might want to recommend me , when it comes to reading the Upanishads ?
I know Mr.Yajvan said in another post , that we should read translated works of different authors to churn out the real meaning from sanskrit texts . But for the time being i would like to start by grabbing a version of the Mukhya / Main Upanishads , that's unabridged & has a simple english translation by a decent author . That would suffice me for the time being :)

And i would definitely read the Kathopanishad , Mandukya and Svetasvata upanishads as Devotee suggested . But i'm also dying to read the Taitriya Upanishad . Thanks to devotee for suggesting me the Taitriya .
So does the Taitriya upanishad explain in detail about the 5 koshas , about the 5 types of prana , about the various functions of the subtle body ??

I was reading a book by Swami Abhedananda (disciple of Swami RamaKrishna of Bengal) where he mentions the qualities and properties of a subtle body . He says that a subtle body has the following -

* mind , intellect , ego , memory .
* 5 senses of perception (sight , sound , touch , taste , smell) .
* 5 organs of action: speech, hands, legs, anus and genitals)
* 5 types of Prana-Shakti : Prana (respiration), Apana (evacuation of waste from the body), Vyana (blood circulation), Udana (actions like sneezing, crying, vomiting etc), Samana (digestion)

Swami Abhedananda in his book mentions only this much & didin't explain anything in detail like how does a subtle body performs these actions ... or how these actions performed by the subtle body differs from the actions performed by the physical body .
I mean , all that a subtle body can do , the physical body can do as well . So where's the difference .
Does the Upanishads explain this difference in detail ?

Also the thing that i found most shocking , is that , the subtle body can also evacuate waste products . This task is perfomed by the prana shakti called Apana . Now in my opinion , i don't think a subtle body (after the death of its physical body) would need food to survive and therefore wouldn't produce waste products either .
Does the Upanishads explain in detail how a subtle body can perform the function of evacuating waste products ?
Thanks :)
A few items for your consideration....

I would recommend choosing 1 or 2 upaniá¹£ad-s at a time. The notion here is simple: Avoid boiling the ocean. There is a difference between reading and studying.
I prefer study ( others may vary). That is, avoid one-size-fits-all book of the upaniá¹£ad-s and trying to inhale them all at once.

I would recommend svÄmÄ« muni nÄrÄyaṇa prÄsad's books. He is clear & insightful ; are there others? Yes no doubt.
I would start here with this:
http://www.amazon.com/Isavasya-Mandukya-Upanisads-Translation-Commentary/dp/8124604924/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450728253&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=isavasya+upanishad

Now that said, I am of the firm belief that to begin the upaniá¹£ad-s without the insight to the 6 Indian schools of thought, one will miss the
forest and spend time with just the trees. Hence my recommendation, the 6 systems' author can be found here: http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?14305-New-comer-questions .

...do as you see fit.

yatastvaṠśivasamo'si

Red_Drag0n
25 December 2015, 12:15 AM
Thanks Mr.Yajvan . I went to the library and got my hands on one of the Upanishads by Swami Narayana Muni Prasad , and the english is simple and crisp just like you said . Before that , i also went thru volume 1 of Sacred Books Of The East , by Max Muller . Few upanishads are translated in it as well , but the interpretation was really hard for me to decipher . Right now im reading the Bhagavat Geeta by Prabhupada of Iskcon and when i'm done with it , i'll surely get one of the upanishads by Naranaya Muni Prasad :)

devotee
25 December 2015, 02:08 AM
Namaste,



* mind , intellect , ego , memory .
* 5 senses of perception (sight , sound , touch , taste , smell) .
* 5 organs of action: speech, hands, legs, anus and genitals)
* 5 types of Prana-Shakti : Prana (respiration), Apana (evacuation of waste from the body), Vyana (blood circulation), Udana (actions like sneezing, crying, vomiting etc), Samana (digestion)


I would say only this much here :

a) Upanishads are interested in higher truths and do not go into details into what bothers you. Read the Upanishads and see yourself.

b) Do not carry the baggage of body consciousness when trying to understand things of subtle world. I will tell you how it all works :
Subtle world is like the world of dreams. Everything in dream-world is created by impressions within mind and they appear as real as in gross-world. Aren't you able to see in dreams even when your eyes are fully closed ? Don't you hear conversation that you enter into with fellow characters in dreams when you are fully asleep and no one is speaking there in reality. You are able to see, hear, feel pain, feel joys and sorrows and can do everything including evacuation in dreams.

The subtle worlds are in many planes. Some are placed higher and some are lower. Here, the position of being higher and lower is actually attachment of being with gross world and his body. The more he is attached to his form and the world, after death, he is likely to reside in more lower planes. As the being ascends higher in spirituality, he is fit for residing in higher planes and in higher planes there is no evacuation of waste matter or feel of pains due to heat, cold, accidents etc. It is full of bliss and happiness. There is nothing working in conflict as in gross world.

OM

Red_Drag0n
26 December 2015, 03:29 AM
Thanks for the reply Devotee :) Yeah i know that according to hinduism , the spirits in the 7 higher lokas are free from hunger , thirst , pain , anger & so on . But the ones dwelling in the 7 lower lokas , because of their negetive karmas and/or attachment to the gross world , have all the characteristics of a physical body .
And yes , as you mentioned , i've also heard that in subtle worlds , the subtle beings can manifest their desires , by the power of thought :)

But what i really want to know is , how the subtle bodies (sookshma sharira) functions ?

I know we shouldn't try to understand the subtle reality by our 5 senses or by logic because its beyond our comprehension to do so . But after i came to know that our vedic scriptures have given some characteristics of the subtle bodies , i thought , there must be more to it in these scriptures like how such subtle bodies actually functions .

The samana (carries out the function of digestion) .
The question that comes to my mind is , how does it consumes food in the first place in order to carry out the digestion .

The Vyana (carries out the function of blood circulation) .
My question is , can a subtle body like say of a ghost , possibly have blood ? ... or is the blood actually in its subtle form ?

All these questions are arising in my mind . Does the scriptures speak of them in detail . Thank You & Hare Krishna .

devotee
26 December 2015, 08:49 PM
Namaste RD,



But what i really want to know is , how the subtle bodies (sookshma sharira) functions ?
I know we shouldn't try to understand the subtle reality by our 5 senses or by logic because its beyond our comprehension to do so . But after i came to know that our vedic scriptures have given some characteristics of the subtle bodies , i thought , there must be more to it in these scriptures like how such subtle bodies actually functions.

The samana (carries out the function of digestion) .
The question that comes to my mind is , how does it consumes food in the first place in order to carry out the digestion .

The Vyana (carries out the function of blood circulation) .
My question is , can a subtle body like say of a ghost , possibly have blood ? ... or is the blood actually in its subtle form ?

All these questions are arising in my mind . Does the scriptures speak of them in detail . Thank You & Hare Krishna .

MAndukya Upanishad says that second state of Brahman is Dream-state (the state in dreams and in subtle world):

"The second quarter is taijasa. Its field is the dream state. Its consciousness is inward-turned. It is seven-limbed and nineteen-mouthed. It enjoys subtle objects."

==> So, in subtle state, the being has all seven limbs and nineteen mouths for enjoying in subtle world in the way it enjoys in the gross world.

I will tell you how it works :

a) We think that it is our brain that thinks. This is wrong. The thinking process is in mind (i.e. conditioned consciousness) and brain is the instrument in the gross world through which the mind works.

b) We think that it is our ears by which we hear. This is wrong. The hearing is by mind and the ears are only an instrument in gross world to help in the process of hearing.

c) Similar to above, the hunger, thirst, sexual desires etc. all arise in mind and are satisfied in mind. The gross organs only help in this gross world in different processes.

Where do the flow of blood, prANa, ApAna, functions of heart, kidneys, liver fit in all this ? All these organs arise in mind and function as they do as mind desires and everything here is governed by the laws of Gross world. So, for satisfying hunger, we have to eat gross food which goes through our mouth, stomach, intestines, gets converted into energy, blood etc. and generates waste products which are evacuated by our gross organs meant for the purpose. Now, this all is not necessary for enjoying food. Mind can generate thoughts which come at the time of enjoying a particular food and can enjoy a particular food even without actually eating food. This is what happens in dreams. So, for fulfilling any desires, in gross world, you need gross objects of enjoyment and gross organs which function in a predetermined manner to bring in the effect of enjoyment.

In subtle world, there are no gross objects of enjoyment. The body is subtle -- created by mind and the objects too are subtle. However, the mind is capable of simulating the functions of all gross organs in subtle world and can give enjoyment of food, sight, hearing, sex etc. In Gross world, mind's power is subdued and it depends upon gross elements of the gross world to make anything happen as it desires. In subtle world, the power of mind becomes much more intense. Things are produced just by the thought of mind ... any event can be made to happen just by thought of mind. ... and of course, the beings residing in higher realms have much mind-powers as compared to beings living in lower realms.

So, everything in subtle world is just manifestation of thought-waves. You don't need gross objects or gross organs or processes of the gross world to happen what you want there. Think more on how things happen in dreams and the whole thing will be more clear to you.

OM