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AmIHindu
25 July 2011, 06:57 PM
Namaste,

Here is new thread to find way to evolve ( spiritual development) yourself.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=69083#post69083


Namaste Yajvanji,

Actually, today itself I was thinking of starting a new thread on above topic, can we have an enlightening discussion on above.

Pranam

Ekoham


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I have noticed as one evolves ( meaning spiritual development) hostility (vaira¹, dviṣ¹ ) is less of an issue.


If one evolves then there is not problem, but how to evolve is a very big issue. Evolving is not that much easy.

yajvan
25 July 2011, 08:13 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I think we may wish to discuss what is spiritual development. I think we know it when we see it, but before we talk of this development, what to we consider spiritual ?

praṇām

Mana
26 July 2011, 01:52 AM
Namasté

The spirit to my mind is that which the physical body contains to over see its well being in the physical world, to help run all these complicated systems. It insures that our heart beats that we breath regularly and in in appropriate manor for the given situation. Once well fed and oiled it allows us to think about continuing its form and nature by reproduction. Or should the environment permit, spend energy on creating forms in its own likeness or even so far as to try to understand its own likeness.

I should like to think that all spiritual growth starts with awareness and perception. Awareness of a need within our selves for change and the perception to know that this change is spiritual in nature even if it involves physical worldly changes too. Thus with an inkling of how to go about it.

What is this spiritual development?

To my mind it is the acquisition of wisdom at a very base level of our beings, which in turn helps us make better decisions for the right reasons. Allowing us to progress in HARMONY with the world. A balance both within our selves and the world about us. Under the condition of perfect balance or joining this becomes that becomes one.


Aum shri Ganeshaya nahma

yajvan
26 July 2011, 10:43 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Spiritual means non-material. Untouched by the relative field of life, yet the foundation for it. Just as space allows everything a place to exist , the spritual at its most fundamental and whole level is Being, pure Being.

Behind everything there is Being - the canvas of existence. Hence spiritual is the recognition and appreciation of Being at the core of everything. This brings unity to all of creation.

Spiritual development is first recognizing and directly experiencing this Being in ones own self as Self; then the ~development~ part is the unfoldment that every fiber in the universe is bathed in this Being.

The development part is once again becoming so innocent in awareness that one perceives ~feels~ this Being. That is why we start with ourselves. It is the closest point to begin the journey.
That is why there are so many approaches. People are thinkers, feelers, extoverted, intoverted, etc. Since Being is everywhere it is finding that technique that resonates with one's nature.

My teacher always reminded us, the world is as you are. If one is unhappy or sad, the world looks the same way. If one is filled with and lives in Being, of fullness, the world is the same way.

praṇām

yajvan
26 July 2011, 12:26 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Behind everything there is Being - the canvas of existence. Hence spiritual is the recognition and appreciation of Being at the core of everything. This brings unity to all of creation.


How does this recognition and appreciation unfold or occur? Fundamentally there are 2 components - knowledge and experience. One compliments the other.

Knowledge, when one thinks about it is the basis of action ( of doing), action is the basis of achievement. So proper knowledge is needed to understand this spiritual pursuit for its achievement. Some knowledge gives some achievement, in-depth and full knowledge adds more and more to one's pursuit.

Yet this knowledge needs to be complimented by personal experience. This personal experience in this case is the unfoldment of Being within one's self. Some say it is an approach, a technique, upāya¹. And what we are aiming at is called this upeya¹ the aim of one's intent.

So when we look at spiritual development we have the components
of knowledge + experience + upāya + upeya.

We want right knowledge from reliable sources, no ? This will validate if our experiences are right. We what proper techniques and the proper goal. Our goal we have set: that of the recognition and appreciation of Being to unfold within our awareness, our direct personal experience.

But what else is an ~ingredient~ ? Patience and persistence.


praṇām

words

upāya - that by which one reaches one's aim
upeya - to be striven after or aimed at , that which is aimed at; the aim to be set about or undertaken ,
a thing undertaken

NayaSurya
26 July 2011, 12:30 PM
Another ingredient...one of the most important to me.

Beloved, precious Beings so full of the Truth(all of you who help in this forum<3).

To help us align the words of Truth with the experience.

and I am not sure...but pretty sure:p

That it take much much more patience on your side, being one of those whom sheds the light upon the words so precious, which is so desperately needed...to confirm this experience!

Thank you all, for puting up with the shenanigans of our learning.<3

Eastern Mind
26 July 2011, 12:40 PM
Vannakkam: I believe one should not dwell much, if at all, on their own spiritual unfoldment. There are better more progressive things to do. I try to leave it in Siva's hands.

Aum Namasivaya

AmIHindu
26 July 2011, 02:37 PM
Namaste,

It is difficult to define Spiritual in one word but I call it Adhyatmik.

People are at different level of Adhyatmikta. Depending upon their Spiritual practice - Adhyatmik Karya they purify themselves. All people who worship or do rituals are Adhyatmik but their degree differs depending upon their actions in reallife.

In my opinion, why do we do this practice ? To get self enlightenment. In general terms if we pray to GOD or do rituals, that takes us near to enlightenment. But more specifically speaking, we try to increase Sattva guna within ourselves. More one increase Sattva in oneself, one's life gets more spiritual - Adhyatmic, nearer to Moksh.

When said Sattva brings spirituality to us or Sattva takes us to Moksh, at the same time, I believe, Rajas and Tamas will not take you there but there are devotees who are Rajas and Tamas predominant.


More than happy to receive more on above.

yajvan
27 July 2011, 12:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Vannakkam: I believe one should not dwell much, if at all, on their own spiritual unfoldment. There are better more progressive things to do. I try to leave it in Siva's hands.


If this be applicable for everyone then patañjali-ji has wasted his words; then ādi śaṅkara-ji words and insights will have gone for naught. He says¹ let the wise person strive for liberation. Let him become absorbed whole-heartedly in the Truth taught by him ( 'him' here is the sage, guru, etc.)

praṇām

1. From ādi śaṅkara-ji work, vivekacūḍāmaṇi - 8th śloka

Eastern Mind
27 July 2011, 01:05 PM
Vannakkam Yajvan: I think my wording was wrong. What I meant to say was dwelling on which level that you are at. Overanalysis. Of course we should do our best at striving to unfold, from wherever we are. A marathoner puts equal effort into the beginning, the middle, and the end of the race. Its one step at a time regardless it there are 10 meters left or 20 miles left. Sorry if the message wasn't clear.
:)
Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
27 July 2011, 04:22 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Vannakkam Yajvan: I think my wording was wrong. What I meant to say was dwelling on which level that you are at.
:)

Yes, this makes sense... even if you dwell on it, we're still not quite sure where one is at. It is very hard to say 'well I feel pretty close' - it has little meaning. It would be like saying a cow is 1/2 pregnant... it just doesn't occur.

Yet that said, one may feel progress is being made - this is a good thing. Going in the direction of more sattva.

praṇām

AmIHindu
27 July 2011, 05:20 PM
Namaste,



hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




Yes, this makes sense... even if you dwell on it, we're still not quite sure where one is at. It is very hard to say 'well I feel pretty close' - it has little meaning. It would be like saying a cow is 1/2 pregnant... it just doesn't occur.

Yet that said, one may feel progress is being made - this is a good thing. Going in the direction of more sattva.

praṇām

In my opinion, I would say, when one increases Sattva, one can see change in one's personality and change in one's character. These two are very basic achievements of spirituality.

Ekoham
28 July 2011, 07:07 AM
Namaste,

Me too believe that, it will be difficult to say where one has progressed to or at which level, but certainly the experiences one has and the change one observes in ones behavior (also pointed out by AmI Hindu) are certain parameters to judge how one is progressing and how well .

One who is practicing Kundalini Yoga or Naad Yoga (Shabad Yoga) or Laya Yoga there are certain experiences mentioned in the scriptures that confirm one's progress.

Lets take for example
1- One's hearing Anahat Naad during meditation or otherwise is very good achievement in Naad Yoga (Shabad Yoga), also in Kundalini Yoga

2- One's experiencing of TOTAL DISSOLUTION in Vipassana (Budhdhist style of meditation) is certainly a very good progress.

But unfortunately these are not to be discussed in open forum like this, these are subjects for discussion between Guru and Disciple or between experienced and new Sadhaks.

Pranam

Ekoham

Ekoham
28 July 2011, 07:10 AM
Namaste,

As for OP,
what it is that constitutes spiritual growth and how does one grow,
why not all beings follow spirituality, is there any correlation of this with Karma-Phala sidhdhant (also mentioned in BG how yogi continues his journey), why do some suffer more while starting afresh or during their journey on this path of spirituality. Once these are answered most of the doubts will be clarified.
Waiting for elaborate answers from other great souls.

Pranam

Ekoham

Eastern Mind
28 July 2011, 07:32 AM
Vannakkam: In a sense, since we believe that moksha is the destiny of all souls with no exception, we're all growing all the time. But this overall growth, as I see it, has its ups and downs, and isn't a straight line. More like a daily temperature graph that shows a trend.

The main thing, for me anyway, is to take and grasp the lessons from experience, with the knowledge its temporal.

I do remember a long time ago of an experience with an elementary classmate of mine, whom I hadn't seen for 5 or 6 years, and we bumped into each other. After some discussion as to what we had been up to, he stared at me and said, quite seriously, "You've changed." I felt like replying, "You haven't." but it seemed pointless. Of course he had, but I was unable to notice.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
28 July 2011, 07:53 AM
Namaste,

As for OP,
what it is that constitutes spiritual growth and how does one grow,
why not all beings follow spirituality, is there any correlation of this with Karma-Phala sidhdhant (also mentioned in BG how yogi continues his journey), why do some suffer more while starting afresh or during their journey on this path of spirituality. Once these are answered most of the doubts will be clarified.
Waiting for elaborate answers from other great souls.

Pranam

Ekoham

Not a great soul, but can add a mundane approach to this.


What it is that constitutes spiritual growth and how does one grow?

I believe...there is an oportunity to learn in every thing we do...even the ugly things that happen provide some good...dare I say...much good.

For every step we take forward is another step closer to the Truth. We become to unfold this truth as the way becomes clearer...and it become clearer when we have finally finished a great portion of our homework/karma.

Why not all beings follow spirituality, is there any correlation of this with Karma-Phala sidhdhant (also mentioned in BG how yogi continues his journey)?

It's very hard to swim to shore when we are dragging several bags of sand. This sand...our karma to work out....slowly burns off and frees us to move towards the shore. Until then...I can not help but be optomistic about every action bringing us closer to that moment. In my eyes...every being can not help but be spiritual inside...as this is what we are...spirit. They just have to rediscover themself.


Why do some suffer more while starting afresh or during their journey on this path of spirituality?

Burning karma is difficult work...can be unpleasant. Recently...I asked Beloved for extra credit. This is a concept in schools where the teacher give the child more work to raise their grade. So I ask Beloved to give me more. I get punched...and I rise up to ask for another. Because the punch is growth...and a step closer to more Truth.

and in my eyes...punch more like a blessed kiss. One to help me finish this work and get the heck out of here!:p

Once you begin to appreciate these lessons for what they are...no matter how unpleasant they may seem at the time...you may begin to seek them as I have.

So some may suffer...but someday it will not even register such a notion.

Ekoham
28 July 2011, 12:29 PM
Wonderful Nayasurya,

I enjoyed your post and glad to know your clarity of understanding.
I do have answers to the points I raised, just wanted to know the views of other great souls, no doubt you are one of them (great souls) for me.


Pranam

Ekoham

yajvan
28 July 2011, 01:58 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;


Many like to see progress that is, well , a bit spectacular - lights, visions, etc. For me it has been simple things. Insights. Things that are the ahhh-ha-s! that I did not see before. These have been most gratifying.

My teacher has always taught expect nothing. I see the immense value in this.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
28 July 2011, 02:05 PM
Vannakkam: This thread reminds me of the story of the two disciples asking Guru how long it would be until moksha, and He turns it around and asks them.

The one who says, "I'm ready' has to wait a while longer, and the one who says "at least another 100 lifetimes" is granted release by Guru.

Its just some story to stretch the importance of real humility.

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
28 July 2011, 02:11 PM
You know about three nights ago something spectacular happened. I didn't tell you all because lately I have been keeping it quiet.:p

But it was this two inch white orb came into my room, at first I thought it was a bright white colored feather as it was sort of distorted on the edges...or a spiders sac floating? Now my room has brightly lit and full of wind from the vents and a huge fan that is about 3-4 feet across into this vaulted ceiling in my bedroom and for the life of me...I could not figure out how it was moving against the flow of air. So I jump up and went to it and put my hand over it...and it was only LIGHT! In my cupped hand! It was the most beautiful lil thing I have ever seen in my life! Silver like moonlight.

and it flew up out of my hand and disappeared.

Okay...so what does it matter? I know it was wonderful...but as far as my progress? It means very very little. I have to work on being who I am...and all this flashy pretty things just sidetrack.

So I didn't tell you all...and it was probably the first time in my life I have ever seen anything so phenomenal. But, at the end of the day...I have 10 to feed...and laundry to do...and I am still wanting to sing to Beloved.

We have to keep on going...keep on swimming!

and this light?...well it's just put away for now...as I am too busy.
Just something to explain later when I die...when Beloved comes and said...You caught me once Mahalaya...why did you let me go?:p

Oh and I wanted to add...Beloved Beloved GuruDeva always say...the spectacular things you should not be too overtly happy about...they sidetrack. So you know I always remember that...because they do.

Ekoham
29 July 2011, 01:14 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Many like to see progress that is, well , a bit spectacular - lights, visions, etc. For me it has been simple things. Insights. Things that are the ahhh-ha-s! that I did not see before. These have been most gratifying.

My teacher has always taught expect nothing. I see the immense value in this.

praṇām

Namaste Yajvanji,

It's quiet natural to have the desire to know one's progress, when one is doing something (in material or spiritual world).
Me too, was troubling my master (Guru) to know how fast I can reach or where have I reached/ progressed. He used to calm me down in his own ways.

But in a way I feel, so long as these desires do-not affect our sadhna, they are good, as it indicates our urge to do more and that's what keeps us going against all odds. Experiences boost our confidence and tell us how sincere we are in our pursuit.
It is impossible to say one will not have any experience/s, let one follow, any path of spirituality. But one should not get misguided or become egotistical of one's achievements (and Guru plays important role there).

Even for me, the best thing that Guru taught was, "In Shaktipat Yoga, the sadhak does nothing, mother Kundalini takes care of everything (the most important thing is, this sense of doing is taken out at the very beginning of sadhna).

That's why the need of "Guru" (disperse r of darkness) is unquestionable.

Pranam

Ekoham

Mana
29 July 2011, 04:06 AM
Namaste,

As for OP,
what it is that constitutes spiritual growth and how does one grow,
why not all beings follow spirituality, is there any correlation of this with Karma-Phala sidhdhant (also mentioned in BG how yogi continues his journey), why do some suffer more while starting afresh or during their journey on this path of spirituality. Once these are answered most of the doubts will be clarified.
Waiting for elaborate answers from other great souls.

Pranam

Ekoham

Namasté Ekoham, All

To understand spiritual growth we must forget both the ego and the self temporarily and envisage the Atman and Purusha their roll in the growth of Dharma. When either the self chooses or Dharma requires it by the movement of Purusha and PrakRti.

As Purusha moves with PrakRti friction and heat are made within both. Dharma and Adharma are both present as they are in fact the same thing only moving both forwards and backwards as branches of a tree.

In some situations Dharma will eject jiva.

As fruit falls from the tree in a storm in time its rotting flesh leaves a seed in fertile ground. That seed is released from the sweet flesh of mAyA. That seed may see its likeness it the tree from which it came and into which it may grow.

In calmer times a fruit may be picked eaten and the seed nurtured allowing it grow with great ease, however this seed may not have seen its likeness in the tree but in the hand that nurtures it.

Both are spiritual growth.

Without the presence of the sun amongst others, there would be no growth in either case.

We can feel the movement of Dharma in our hearts and see it all about us. If we so desire. Once ripe we either fall or are picked.


Pranam

Mana

AmIHindu
01 August 2011, 09:42 PM
It's quiet natural to have the desire to know one's progress, when one is doing something (in material or spiritual world).

Experiences boost our confidence and tell us how sincere we are in our pursuit.
Ekoham

It is kind of confusing to me. When we want to seat for medical exam, we study so hard to become a doctor. There comes, desire for result which we should not expect in spiritual field.
In my opinion,
Faith is more important then experience in spirituality. In material word, we do so much of reasoning, in spiritual world there is reasoning but superlative reasoning, guess which culminates in to consciousness.

=========================================================
Thanks to all devotee, you people all discussed how to measure Spiritual Development, but question is still there How to develop spiritually ?

I read here many times, that it will take long for we people to get Moksh. May be this life, 2nd life or 3rd life. I am not sure if this is written in any of Hindu scriptures, if written in any scripture, please let me know.
Human life is given for to get Moksh, if we do not get it in this life then guess we do not know how to get the Moksh or our efforts are less.

Sri Ramkrishna says, there are 16 parts of Mind ( may be brain - conscious - unconscious ). We should devote 15 part to GOD and one part to our household duties. But presently, we devote 15 parts to household activities and one part to GOD.

So I think Moksh is possible in this life only but we do not know the way how to get it.

Eastern Mind
01 August 2011, 09:54 PM
Vannakkam AmIHindu:

Personally, I don't ever think about when I will get moksha. Its one brick at a time. I'll give you a personal example.

At our temple, I am the landscaper. Last summer, in the fall, I ordered a truckload of topsoil to be placed on the grass. (about the 10th time I have done this) That's 12 cubic yards, 90 wheelbarrows full, and about 2700 shovels both on and off, and then raking it into the grass. Most people would say I'm nuts. (I do this by myself... no help ... no work crew)

If you look at the whole truckload of dirt when its dumped on the parking you lot, you think: "That's a lot of dirt! It'll never get moved."

But each time it happens I am able to move it, the whole thing. Why? I do it one wheelbarrow full at a time, usually between 5 to 10 a day. in two weeks its done.

That is how moksha is achieved. By doing something every day. Just something. Japa, service, a small puja, giving, helping. Something. This lifetime, next lifetime, 50 lifetimes from now, 1000 lifetimes, so be it. Moksha is inevitable, for all souls. My Beloved Guru said: "It does not take time. It takes will power."

Same with the pile of dirt. It takes will power.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
01 August 2011, 10:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;



I read here many times, that it will take long for we people to get Moksh. May be this life, 2nd life or 3rd life. I am not sure if this is written in any of Hindu scriptures, if written in any scripture, please let me know.
Human life is given for to get Moksh, if we do not get it in this life then guess we do not know how to get the Moksh or our efforts are less.

So I think Moksh is possible in this life only but we do not know the way how to get it.

One must consider that this unfoldment can come in a blink of an eye or in eons. Some see this as a function of grace...

I wrote some time back:

One may receive the grace ( anugraha) of Śiva. From this anugraha Śiva creates Masters and śiṣya-s ( students or disciples) via His śaktipāta&#185;. Let me offer a few ideas from a Kaśmir Śaivism point of view and Svāmi Laksmanjoo's teachings.

Listed below are the first 3 śaktipāta-s ;

tīvra-tīvra-śaktipāta - this is the highest level, and therefore called Super Supreme Grace - Its called as such as tīvra ( strong, intense) is repeated twice in the name. This śaktipāta produces immediate identity with Śiva and liberation; Yet due to the extreme intensity of this grace the physical body dropped; This individual becomes a siddha master says Svāmi-ji. From this position this being bestows grace from his abode (Siddhaloka), directly into the heart of deserving aspirants.
tīvra-madhya-śaktipāta - the next level is Supreme Medium Grace i.e. tīvra ( strong, intense) + madya or central, medium. Such an individual becomes spiritually illuminated and liberated on his own, relying directly on Śiva, not needing initiation or instruction from another or guru. This is completed facilitated by his/her awakening of his spiritual intuition (pratibhā) which immediately eliminates ignorance or any blemishes ( mala).
tīvra-manda-śaktipāta - the next level is considered Inferior or Lower Supreme Grace - note tīvra +manda which is slow, gentle, slight. The person who receives this grace strongly desires to find the feet of his spiritual guru. Who does he find? Svāmi Laksmanjoo suggests he is directed to the guru that received tīvra-madhya-śaktipāta ( the 2nd śaktipāta just reviewed above). Yet this aspirant does not need instruction; What then occurs? A simple touch, a look, simply being in the presence of his master is enough to trigger in him into the state of illumination. This individual need not puruse japa or dhyāna ( contemplation or meditation) as his dīkṣā is complete.There are 3 more levels... if interested I will find the HDF post of the other 3.

praṇām

words

śaktipāta शक्तिपात- defined as prostration of strength, it is the transfer of śakti or energy from a higher source to another i.e. śakti power, ability, strength, might, effort, energy, capability + pāta alighting, descending or causing to descend, casting or throwing upon, cast, fall
tīvra तीव्रis strong, intense, pervading
madhya मध्यis middle, central, middlemost , intermediate, central

Mana
02 August 2011, 04:47 AM
Namast&#233; yajvan

Thank you for your post, I will be very great full if you would take the time to highlight any previous posts depicting 3 more levels within the nature of the aspirant and the illuminated.

Pranam

Mana

yajvan
02 August 2011, 05:41 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Namasté yajvan

Thank you for your post, I will be very great full if you would take the time to highlight any previous posts depicting 3 more levels within the nature of the aspirant and the illuminated.


you will find the whole conversation here:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3377&highlight=t%26%23299%3Bvra


praṇām

AmIHindu
03 August 2011, 05:10 PM
Namaste EM Ji,

It wasn't personally for you. I follow this website, http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/ for chanting - namjapa.

These people also believe that we can not get Moksh in this life. We just need to be consistence with our Good Karma ( Devotion ) to get better Devotional next life.