Exploring Hinduism

[Ben Bet Beh]

I am in the midst of a spiritual journey. Part of that journey has me exploring the truth. On this journey I have concluded that there is indeed a supreme being. What I am discerning now is what is the best option for following this supreme being. If you could be so kind as to express to me who this supreme being is to you, why you believe what you do, what motivates you to believe, where you expect your own journey of faith to take you, and how one goes about pursuing one's faith? Thank you for your consideration.

Ben

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Ben: Welcome to these forums. The answers to your questions could make a tome or two or three or a dozen. Each of us here on HDF will have a different answer, or perhaps two or more.

For starters, we all have a very personal opinion. Secondly, we all have an opinion of what all Hindus might think, or an attempt at a generalisation for you. So which do you want, personal opinions, or what we think is a consensus answer for all of Hinduism.

Aum Namasivaya

[WTyler]

Greetings,

I would suggest that although the journey is important let the path be the journey and the journey be the path. Enjoy the ride, because the ride is also the destination, ya dig?

The best method of "following" the supreme being is the method that rings true in your heart. In Hinduism you will have a wide variety of people who will tell you that way X is correct and another will tell you that way Y is correct. Those ways are not invalid, both are very true--to the person practicing it.

For me to tell you all of my personal experiences would be a bit daunting. Though, I can tell you I believe in a supreme being that dances joyously in the heart of all beings. I also believe in an eternal soul that lives on forever--why? I just feel as if there is a part of me that has simply was never born and has never died.

That's the tricky part, good fellow. This is me talking. My journey can't reflect your journey, my stories might inspire you, but brother, my stories are mine. Your path, whatever it may be, is correct. Don't grasp too much in the world of labels and the world of form.. find out what rings true in your heart.

Now if you want to ask about what Hindu's believe about A,B and C.. that could perhaps clear up some confusion for you, brother.

[wundermonk]

On this journey I have concluded that there is indeed a supreme being. What I am discerning now is what is the best option for following this supreme being.

Ben, Welcome to HDF and all the best on your spiritual journey.

The first step (one that you have already taken) is to convince oneself about the existence of a "God".

The question that then comes about is, if there is a "God", what is the purpose of this universe/creation?

Abrahamic religions answer this one way. Islam says, Allah all of a sudden decided to test us. The test is whether one can believe in Allah. Muslims obviously believe this.

Hinduism answers the question of creation in multiple ways. According to Advaita, Brahman (Hindu God) is pure bliss - that is, Brahman can have no wishes or desire to test us souls, etc. It is completely content in itself. According to this stream of thought, creation never occurred. Everything IS Brahman. The world of diversity that we see is due to our false mental conditioning. Creation is an illusion.

This is a difficult answer to come to grips with for quite a few of us. Let us see if Hinduism has something else to offer at a more empirical level.

You believe in a God and I hope you also believe in a soul. Now the question is, does God create souls? If yes, then it would be very difficult to rationalize why there is so much gap in the life experiences of different people. Some are born rich, some are poor, some have great genetic makeup, some people have debilitating diseases right from childhood, etc. A God that creates souls and assigns bodies to souls randomly can so easily be accused of not being a fair judge. For instance, if I am going to be judged in an afterlife based on whether I believed or did not believe in Allah, it would be very easy for me to accuse Allah of making me a disbeliever by having me take birth in a non-Muslim family.

So, if God is not to be accused of being an unfair judge, the only other option is to have the individual souls themselves be the makers of their own destiny. That is why, at the empirical level, Hinduism posits that Brahman and individual souls have been existing since eternity. So, the question of Brahman creating the souls does not arise, absolving Brahman of playing favourites with souls. The number of souls is infinite. There have been infinite cycles of creation/sustenance/dissolution.

Now, to have souls be the makers of their own destiny we need a concept of reincarnation. The world of diversity [some rich, some poor, some healthy, some sick] arises on account of past karma. As one sows, so does one reap.

Brahman cannot be accused of suddenly having a desire to test souls, etc. like the Abrahamics do for one then needs to answer WHY all of a sudden Brahman developed that desire. Why not before, why not later?

This, in short, is a case for Hinduism based on pure logical necessity of the status of various ontological entities like God, souls, etc.

Now, many people, on seeing this are quick to pronounce Hinduism as fatalism. It is not so and if you like, you can read through some of the older posts here that deal with Karma/reincarnation.

[Friend from the West]

Namaste,
Welcome Ben. I like Eastern Mind's response. It rings true to me. His, WTylers and Wondermonk's responses gives you a hint of the richness that can be found in SD.
For me, I had practiced a form of meditation for along time that in ways steered me away from SD. When I started reading Hindu texts instead of snippets and quotes from them, everything came together. Sorry for the drama Ben, but it was like the TRUTH exploded in my being. Coming from a Judeo-Christian culture here in the west or perhaps for other reasons, I hesitate using the word God now. Brahman, The Divine, Supreme Being, etc.. For me personally, God is confining to previous belief and confines the Divine.
Ben, this Forum has truly been a huge plus in my journey. If you will, search around on it and think you will find much. Secondly, post questions, and although each of us have our own styles of responses, do not think you will receive anything but sincere feedback from the portions of the Divine who are so very knowledgeable.
Take care,
FFTW

[kallol]

Welcome Ben !!!

So many tough questions to answer !!!! As EM said it will take a lot.

That you now believe that there is some Supreme Being - may be you can say what made you start this belief.

May be you can briefly say about your idea of Supreme Being.

In Hinduism we have right from atheist on one side to Duality (Us and God) or (God in Us or all) to Non Duality (US or all in God) at other end.

It depends where one feels comfortable in this path.

Enjoy the forum.

Love and best wishes

[Jainarayan]

Namaste all.

I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here, just for ideas.


Abrahamic religions answer this one way. Islam says, Allah all of a sudden decided to test us. The test is whether one can believe in Allah. Muslims obviously believe this.

Pretty much spot on, with the addition that the Abrahamic god created the world to show his glory and power. It was a bit of showing off. Then he tested us. C'mon now, you're going to get the ruler across the knuckles from Sister Mary Discipline. :p


Hinduism answers the question of creation in multiple ways. According to Advaita, Brahman (Hindu God) is pure bliss - that is, Brahman can have no wishes or desire to test us souls, etc.

This is a pretty interesting idea from Adi Shankaracharya. I think it shows unequivocally the consistent nature of God:



Now the question arises as to why the Ishvara created the world. If one assumes that Ishvara creates the world for any incentive, this slanders the wholeness and perfection of Ishvara. For example, if one assumes that Ishvara creates the world for gaining something, it would be against His perfection. If we assume that He creates for compassion, it would be illogical, because the emotion of compassion cannot arise in a blank and void world in the beginning (when only Ishvara existed). So Adi Shankara assumes that Creation is recreation or play of Ishvara. It is His nature, just as it is man's nature to breathe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta#.C4.AAshvara


You believe in a God and I hope you also believe in a soul. Now the question is, does God create souls?

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be..." - Bhagavad Gītā , 2.12

Just saying. ;)

[sunyata07]

Quote:
You believe in a God and I hope you also believe in a soul. Now the question is, does God create souls?
"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be..." - Bhagavad Gītā , 2.12

Just saying. ;)


Hence the aptness of also referring to Hinduism by its proper name: Sanatana Dharma. It is eternal and has no end because it never had any beginning. It always just was, is and will be.

Om namah Shivaya

[Ben Bet Beh]

...So which do you want, personal opinions, or what we think is a consensus answer for all of Hinduism....
A consensus would be helpful.

[Ben Bet Beh]

...Hinduism answers the question of creation in multiple ways. According to Advaita, Brahman (Hindu God) is pure bliss - that is, Brahman can have no wishes or desire to test us souls, etc. It is completely content in itself. According to this stream of thought, creation never occurred. Everything IS Brahman. The world of diversity that we see is due to our false mental conditioning. Creation is an illusion.
Are we all God according to Hindu thought?


...So, if God is not to be accused of being an unfair judge, the only other option is to have the individual souls themselves be the makers of their own destiny....
How can we make our own destiny if what I am living is an illusion?


...Now, to have souls be the makers of their own destiny we need a concept of reincarnation. The world of diversity some rich, some poor, some healthy, some sick arises on account of past karma. As one sows, so does one reap.
In other words, we get what we deserve in this current incarnation of ourselves?

[Ben Bet Beh]

...That you now believe that there is some Supreme Being - may be you can say what made you start this belief....
Atheists I have observed have a tendency to be bitter. I will clarify that not all atheists are this way. However, I have found that many have stopped their search for truth and are bitter about the reality that they have in their mind discovered. A search for truth ought to be continuous throughout our lifetimes. If we aren't moving forward, we are moving backward. No one stays still in one position. If we stop searching then we are spinning our wheels and not progressing - but instead reverting.

[wundermonk]

Are we all God according to Hindu thought?

There are (at least) two views about this. The Advaitic view is that yes, we ARE Brahman. "Thou art That" is the Mahakavya Advaitins use to justify this view. Others, Dvaitins for instance, feel that we ARE different from Brahman. Dvaitins and Advaitins have certain irreconcilable differences. What they do have in common are a set of Sadhanas or practices that help an individual attain moksha. There are differences in which particular Sadhana is most beneficial but can leave that for now.


How can we make our own destiny if what I am living is an illusion?

There are two levels of reality admitted by the Advaitin. One is the Paramartha (Absolute Reality) in which ONLY Brahman is true. The second is Vyavahara (Empirical Reality) and the world of duality in which everything IS real. In the Vyavahara we humans DO have at least the illusion of free will. So, why cannot this free will be used to make our own destiny? Once we have realized Paramartha from Vyavahara, the belief goes that we will be released from the cycles of Birth and Death.


In other words, we get what we deserve in this current incarnation of ourselves?

We start out that way. But our actions in this life have a greater impact on our future (both in this life and in the next) than our past. If in this lifetime we are able to attain Brahman, we become jivanmuktas (living souls that have realized Brahman) and no further Karma can accumulate.

The way you have worded it, it makes it appear as if whatever evil happens to us we should just bend over and take it because we deserved it (correct me if I am wrong) That is hardly the case at all. Krishna's call to Arjuna in the Bhagvad Gita is one of the greatest calls to dispense one's actions as the situation demands without a sense of attachment to the results.

[kallol]

Dear Ben,

each of your question needs lots of discussion. There is no consensus but only fitment of one in the path of spirituality.

The path of spirituality is long as I mentioned in my earlier post. People are all unique and they fit at different point where they feel comfortable.

There is no single point which fits all.

It is like our journey in academics. The study starts from KG to university. For a class 5 student, class 10 subjects are hard to understand and so not true for him. Similarly for class 10 the University subjects are hard to understand, so not to be followed.

It is fitment of one in the total path.

We teach numbers in nursery in terms of pictures but the same method is not required for matured student. So which is true. For nursery students numbers are known through pictures - this is true. For matured ones numbers are independent - this is true.

So depending on our maturity the truth varies. In case we fail to understand this, we will fight and debate.

However if you really eager to learn and not have preconcieved ideas, then discussions are best.

Love and best wishes

[Eastern Mind]

Are we all God according to Hindu thought?

How can we make our own destiny if what I am living is an illusion?

In other words, we get what we deserve in this current incarnation of ourselves?

Vannakkam Ben: I thought that Wundermunk answered the first two questions really well, but I can add a bit ... maybe.

I recall at university struggling with the illusion bit too. There are two perspectives, one from the realised soul's mountaintop, seeing all in all. The other is the variouis perspectives from the crawl up to the mountaintop. The mountaintop perspective is beyond the intellect, in another realm of mind altogether, where knowledge just is. Very very few souls are actually there. So out here in the outer mind, life is very very real. We make decisions, control our own destiny, use the intellect, and more.

For your last question, we don't always get what we deserve in this lifetime. Karma can be accelerated or slowed down depending in how intense we want to make it. So some of it may be delayed until some future life. Most Hindus at least try to view lifetimes as a continuum like a whole mala, not the individual beads. The ones that focus on individual lifetimes, in particular this one, I personally believe, get that from exposure to Abrahamic thinking.

Aum Namasivaya

[wundermonk]

Atheists I have observed have a tendency to be bitter...However, I have found that many have stopped their search for truth and are bitter about the reality that they have in their mind discovered. A search for truth ought to be continuous throughout our lifetimes. If we aren't moving forward, we are moving backward. No one stays still in one position. If we stop searching then we are spinning our wheels and not progressing - but instead reverting.

I do respect and enjoy some aspects of the current atheist bunch. For one, I feel atheists are doing quite a phenomenal job defanging Christianity and Islam.

With relation to Islam, the council of ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB) to be found here (http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6dc99b5b0eb91d6906ab1bf1cd667f6a&action=forum) are a bunch of ex-Muslims many of who have turned atheist. It would be good if all 1.5 Billion Muslims worldwide registered at CEMB.;)

[Ben Bet Beh]

...Karma can be accelerated or slowed down depending in how intense we want to make it. So some of it may be delayed until some future life. Most Hindus at least try to view lifetimes as a continuum like a whole mala, not the individual beads. The ones that focus on individual lifetimes, in particular this one, I personally believe, get that from exposure to Abrahamic thinking...
Would you characterize it as a set course where we are along for the ride (like a roller coaster that goes up and down but comes to it's ultimate destination anyway)? Could this be one school of thought in Hinduism or is this the general concensus?

[Ben Bet Beh]

I do respect and enjoy some aspects of the current atheist bunch. For one, I feel atheists are doing quite a phenomenal job defanging Christianity and Islam.
Is there a sense of hostility in Hindu circles regarding Christians and Muslims? If so, why?

[sunyata07]

Is there a sense of hostility in Hindu circles regarding Christians and Muslims? If so, why?

Namaste Ben Bet Beh,

A "sense of hostility in Hindu circles" is perhaps the understatement of the century. Perhaps you're not aware of the long history of violence, tyranny, subterfuge and prosetylisation suffered by millions of Hindus (and other non-Christians, non-Muslims, etc.) at the hands of Muslim neighbours and Christian missionaries? Look no further than some of the threads here on the Abrahamics forum - you don't have to read a history book to understand why so many Hindus find it difficult to suffer their loud Christian and Muslim brothers, not least tolerate them. I'd hate to imagine what it must have been like to be a Hindu once upon a time under Muslim kings and British Christian invaders, but even in modern times it seems a lot of Hindus are being coerced and manipulated into considering a conversion to another religion - either through subversive, underhanded means by equating Christianity/Islam with Hinduism, or taking advantage of some of the poorer Indian economies. Have you ever wondered why this hostility never been on the same scale as for other religions, like Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism (all faiths who originated and thrived on the very same soil as Hinduism)? It's certainly not due to coincidence!

Om namah Shivaya

[wundermonk]

Is there a sense of hostility in Hindu circles regarding Christians and Muslims? If so, why?

Are you even slightly knowledgeable about Indian history?

PS: Unless you display more effort in your posts instead of one liners here and there expecting us to respond to you in detail, I may not be interested in responding to you. Internet sure is a strange place.:rolleyes:

[kallol]

"
1. Are we all God according to Hindu thought?

2. How can we make our own destiny if what I am living is an illusion?

3. In other words, we get what we deserve in this current incarnation of ourselves?

"

Dear Ben,

As I mentioned earlier, these questions cannot be understood through single interaction. It needs prolonged exposure and build up of the knowledge of Hinduism.

However the simple pointers are as below :

1. It depends on how we are able to define God. This again depends on individual's capability to percieve Him with conviction. This again depends on ones spiritual maturity. On one end we have No God. Then we have Us and God. Then God in all. Then all in God. None of the positions, is wrong considering the maturity of oneself. However at the highest level all of perceivable entities are within God. It is just like the cells of our body are part of us.

2. Illusion is a fact of the highest level. This is because our percievable entities are subject to changes with time (short or long). So these are non permanent and any attachment to these will also lead to insecurity, worry and sorrow. Just like any change in organisation or family matters bring concern.

However within that macro view we dwell. Within that we try to act. What I am today is because of my past decisions and actions. Similarly my decisions and actions today will have a huge bearing on my future. This includes my physical and mental state. This is out of the rule of karma.

Like knowing / not knowing that entities are non peramanent, if I get attached to the entities, then the change in state of the entities will affect my mind state.

3. In one word "Yes".

We even do not remember what we have done on each day when we were young, so how can we remember past lives. And I am not alone in this world. Apart from my decision and action, there are other parameters (from past lives and external ecosystem) which affect the outcome - on which I hardly have control. The saying is that our decisions and actions have a huge bearing on outcome but not complete bearing - it is because of the external factors which are not in our control. However more is the knowledge and spiritual knowledge of a person more higher is his mind. So he can see much more and plan better - react better. That is why the outcome is my action + God's grace (this is the unknown part).

Yes again if you are really interested in Hinduism, it would help you a lot if you do some research on hinduism and hindus in internet, etc.


Love and best wishes

[Eastern Mind]

Would you characterize it as a set course where we are along for the ride (like a roller coaster that goes up and down but comes to it's ultimate destination anyway)? Could this be one school of thought in Hinduism or is this the general concensus?

Vannakkam: I don't know if that is a consensus or not, but for me its close, although 'roller coaster' is a bit extreme of an analogy. Its also, in my opinion, not a set course. We (as souls) can determine which varieties of yoga to blend. But ultimately it comes down to going deeply within ourselves to the core.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ben Bet Beh]

Namaste Ben Bet Beh,

A "sense of hostility in Hindu circles" is perhaps the understatement of the century. Perhaps you're not aware of the long history of violence, tyranny, subterfuge and prosetylisation suffered by millions of Hindus (and other non-Christians, non-Muslims, etc.) at the hands of Muslim neighbours and Christian missionaries? Look no further than some of the threads here on the Abrahamics forum - you don't have to read a history book to understand why so many Hindus find it difficult to suffer their loud Christian and Muslim brothers, not least tolerate them. I'd hate to imagine what it must have been like to be a Hindu once upon a time under Muslim kings and British Christian invaders, but even in modern times it seems a lot of Hindus are being coerced and manipulated into considering a conversion to another religion - either through subversive, underhanded means by equating Christianity/Islam with Hinduism, or taking advantage of some of the poorer Indian economies. Have you ever wondered why this hostility never been on the same scale as for other religions, like Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism (all faiths who originated and thrived on the very same soil as Hinduism)? It's certainly not due to coincidence!

Om namah Shivaya
Thank you for your very frank and insightful response. I admit I am not well-versed in Hindu history. I am very much a novice in such things. I will explore the other forums and become informed. It is the very least I can do to do my part in understanding what divides us as people.

[Ben Bet Beh]

Are you even slightly knowledgeable about Indian history?

PS: Unless you display more effort in your posts instead of one liners here and there expecting us to respond to you in detail, I may not be interested in responding to you. Internet sure is a strange place.:rolleyes:
Slightly - yes, but only slightly. It is difficult for me to ask more detailed questions on such topics at this time because I am truly a novice. I am most familiar with Western thought and philosophy and religion. The internet is definitely a strange place and I understand your caution. I truly am a seeker of truth. I also understand that there is no way for you to verify this as you do not know me nor do I know you.

[Ben Bet Beh]

...these questions cannot be understood through single interaction. It needs prolonged exposure and build up of the knowledge of Hinduism.....

...Yes again if you are really interested in Hinduism, it would help you a lot if you do some research on hinduism and hindus in internet, etc.

Love and best wishes
I am interested in learning more about Hinduism. I am not sure if this is the path for me. However, I do feel a calling to be exposed to what Hindus believe without dismissing it before I even know what Hindus believe. Thank you kindly for your responses.