Time - a yardstick for the infinite

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste,
Krsna informs us in chapt 2.11 of the Gita that
' there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men. Nor will there ever be a time when all of us will shall cease to be'

That clearly tells us of our spiritual orientation and our eternal nature... so, how big is this eternity? how long does the essence of SELF exist? Let me offer up a few numbers to measure infinite time:
On a small scale - have you ever wondered what the smallest measure was for the rishi's? If we can think of the biggest of the big ( which will be shown below), what's the smallest of the small - even smaller then a moment ( this moment is used in patanjali's sutra's for a few siddhi's one can practice). The small is considered 1 truti. One hundred truti's = 1 tapal. Thirty tapal's = 1 nimesha or the blink of the eye. So if you work backwards , a truti equals about 0.00001 to 0.00003 seconds.

Now lets go forward and measure out time in years. For now lets go right to yuga times and take it from there ( all the numbers below are in human years)
The 4 Yugas
Sat Yug 1,728,000
Treta Yug 1,296,000
Dvapara Yug 864,000
Kali Yug 432,000 ( each Yug above is a multiple of kali yug)
We are in kali yoga that started 3102 BC. ~ 1.18% of Kali Yuga is completed. There are some noteworthy saints that believe we are in Dwapara Yuga, that is Sri Yukteswar, and presents his audit trail in his book ' The Holy Science'. I respect his work.
Now, we measure time and Brahma is the yard stick:
One Kalpa
One Day of Brahma = 1 Kalpa 1,963,008,000
Manu 490,752,000
Manvantara 490,752,000
One Chaturyugi 6,912,000 ( this = 4 X sat yuga period)
One Life Span Of Brahma
100 Years of Brahma = one life span or 70,668,288,000,000
One Year of Brahma 706,682,880,000
12 Months of Brahma 706,682,880,000
One Month of Brahma 58,890,240,000

Now go to life span's of Mother Divine, as multiples of Siva and Vsnu:
One Life Span of Mother Divine or
70,668,288,000,000,000,000,000 years
One Life Span of Siva 70,668,288,000,000,000,000
One Life Span of Vishnu 70,668,288,000,000,000

They say to measure or come close to eternity, we do this in multiples of Mother
Divine's life span... so lets do 1000 life spans of Mother:70,668,288,000,000,000,000,000,000 ( this number is in septillions of years)
or 70.668 X 10 to the 24th power.

So for us, we live on this planet for perhaps 100 years in round numbers.
Lets take that 100 human years divided by 1,963,008,000 , or one day of Brahma.
Our life span is roughly 500 times smaller then 1 truti, when measured to one day of Brahma's life. We are here for a fleeting moment, yet the SELF has always been.
... Men may come and men my go but I go on forever.

pranams,

[saidevo]

Namaste Yajvan.

The Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology and Religion, Geography, History, and Literature by John Dowson states as follows with reference to the origination of the concept of Yugas as a time-scale:



This elaborate and practically boundless system of chronology was invented between the age of the Rig-veda and that of the Maha-bharata. No traces of it are to be found in the hymns of the Rig, but it was fully established in the days of the great epic. In this work the four ages are described at length by Hanumat, the learned monkey chief, and from that description the following account has been abridged:

(http://www.archive.org/download/aclassicaldictio00dowsuoft/aclassicaldictio00dowsuoft.pdf)


What is the opinion of our learned members?

[devisarada]

Namaste,

I hope you will entertain a question from one who has very little knowledge.

Are these time measurements to be taken literally, or symbolicly? If literally, is there any corroberation with current scientific theories?

[Madhavan]

Now go to life span's of Mother Divine, as multiples of Siva and Vsnu:
One Life Span of Mother Divine or
70,668,288,000,000,000,000,000 years
One Life Span of Siva 70,668,288,000,000,000,000
One Life Span of Vishnu 70,668,288,000,000,000

They say to measure or come close to eternity, we do this in multiples of Mother
Divine's life span... so lets do 1000 life spans of Mother:70,668,288,000,000,000,000,000,000 ( this number is in septillions of years)
or 70.668 X 10 to the 24th power.


Namaste vajvan,

I can understand the lifespan of Brahma, as it is even mentioned in the BG. But where is the lifespan of Mother divine, shiva and vishnu mentioned? How can one state the lifespan of Parabrahma?

[Madhavan]

Namaste,

I hope you will entertain a question from one who has very little knowledge.

Are these time measurements to be taken literally, or symbolicly? If literally, is there any corroberation with current scientific theories?

Current scientific theory does not admit of the existance of Brahma. Then how it can corroberate with these times?

I think these times are both literal and symbolic. They are literal at the macrocosm and symbolic at the microcosm. Brahma's day and nights are comparable to our deep sleep experiences every day.

It should be noted that the authority for these are smritis and not shruti, and hence not very reliable.

[saidevo]

Namaste everyone.

Yajvan has given a top-down approach to the concept of time, which is not symbolic, but realistic. Yet time is an illusion like maya, in the sense its reality is not permanent, only conditional.

Here is a bottom-up approach to time. What are your ideas about the following perceptions about time?

1. Time is an illusion: not a reality, not a dimension (as science seems to think).
2. Time is an illusion, born out of changes in space.
3. Time as an illusion, is cyclical, not linear (as in the western philosophy).
4. Time as an illusion, is infinite, like space.
5. Measurement of time is a conditional break of infinite time.

1. Time is an illusion: not a reality, not a dimension.

Firstly, time is an illusion of the mind, a mostly visual perception.

Close your eyes, switch off all lights, and sit down in a dark room. Try to relax and still your mind. Just watch the thoughts flow by, do not participate in them. Stay on in this position as long as you can.--Now, what impression do you get of time or time passing?

When you watch your favourite movie, you don't seem to notice the passing of time whereas on a day of powercut, you need to kill time to make it pass!

You are sleeping. Deep sleep, no dreams. Do you feel time? You are sleeping, there are dreams. You sense passing of time in the dream events, but is that perception just not visual and illusory?

How does a person born blind perceive time and its passing? He knows about time, because he is conditioned into it, but how would he sense it? What reference does he have as to events and the gaps between them? His world may be mostly aural, but I dare say he still thinks pictorially, because human thinking is mostly pictorial in nature, and this man is blind only physically.

How do the animals, birds and other creatures perceive time? The patterns of their behaviour sure do indicate sensing time, but how do they do it, if it is not visual?

Secondly, time is not a dimension.

The idea of time as the fourth dimension is a favourite pick of science fiction, and possibly started with H.G. Wells' novel "The Time Machine."

Space has three dimensions according to Science. Spiritually, however, space has n-dimensions.

Time has a dimension when measured: linear in local measurement, cyclic in universal. But time as a dimension is an illusion because of the illusions of the past, present and the future. People have ideas of time travel, but no such thing as time travel, only space travel is possible.

2. Time is an illusion, born out of changes in space.

Time, as we commonly know it, is the duration or interval between two events. Where do these events happen? In space, inner or outer.

An event or happening, basically changes something in space. A change occurs at molecular, atomic, sub-atomic or energy levels with every passing event. We cannot think of time as separate from space. The term lightyear affirms this fact.

Whereas space is real, time is not, as it is only a form of measurement between two successive manifestations of space.

3. Time as an illusion, is cyclical, not linear.

The very measurement of time is cyclical. The passage of time from the future through the present to the past appears linear, but time as such is cyclical, whether measured in solar years, or some other scale is cyclical. Nature shows that time is cyclical: sunset follows sunrise, night follows the day, and the seasons repeat every year.

Further, the concept that space manifests as forms that are created and dissolved back to space makes time to be cyclical.

4. Time as an illusion, is infinite, like space.

Did not the time start when the universe was born? Will not time end when the universe is ultimately dissolved? Where will it end when the universe is dissolved? It will end into the inifite space that ever remains as the primordial, unmanifested space.

5. Measurement of time is a conditional break of infinite time.

The measurement of solar time in year, month and days and further down to a second or its fraction is just a conditional break (Khanda kala in Hinduism) of the infinite time (Kala in Hinduism). Because it is cyclic in nature, we have the illusion of a continuous flow of time.

[Madhavan]

Time or kAla is Saguna Brahman, Ishvara. It is an erroneous perception of Brahman imposed by the mind. Time is not an illusion, but is a lower level of reality caused by delusion. Time is known properly only to the knower of Brahman ~ for others it will always remain a puzzle. To understand Time, one needs to be kAlatIta himself.

Time Travel must be a possibility for Yogis. Because of the existance of texts like nADi granthas which are able to predict the past, present and even the future of individuals sometimes with pinpoint accuracy.

Time does not need space for existance. Even in deep sleep, when the world is not seen. we are still aware of time subconsciously, so that when we wake up we exclaim "What a nice sleep I had!!". The time factor appears to be attenuated/dilated in the absence of space because we imagine to have been in deep sleep for hours, yet we note that only a little time has passed, and vice versa.

[devisarada]

Namaste Sai Devo


Here is a bottom-up approach to time. What are your ideas about the following perceptions about time?

1. Time is an illusion: not a reality, not a dimension (as science seems to think).
2. Time is an illusion, born out of changes in space.
3. Time as an illusion, is cyclical, not linear (as in the western philosophy).
4. Time as an illusion, is infinite, like space.
5. Measurement of time is a conditional break of infinite time

As you so eloquently illucidated in your post. Time is an Illusion.

I will post more later, but right now, I haven't the Time.:naughty:

[saidevo]

Namaste Madhavan.

There is so much that we can discuss about Time and Space.

Time is an attractive concept with personal appeal to each and everyone, so perceptions differ depending on the (spiritual) level of the individual, and all the perceptions have their own subjective, though limited, validity.



Time or kAla is Saguna Brahman, Ishvara. It is an erroneous perception of Brahman imposed by the mind. Time is not an illusion, but is a lower level of reality caused by delusion.


Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus defines the terms delusion and illusion thus:



1. delusion implies belief in something that is contrary to fact or reality, resulting from deception, a misconception, or a mental disorder [to have delusions of grandeur];

2. illusion suggests the false perception or interpretation of something that has objective existence [perspective in drawing gives the illusion of depth];


How does Time exist, as a subjective perception, or an objective reality? I think that Time, as you said is a lower level of reality. It is objective in its existence because it is measureable and the measurements stay the same for everyone, though the perception of them is subjective. Being an objective reality, I think, that Time is better described as an illusion rather than as delusion.

kAlA is a name for Lord Yama Dharmaraj, and yama is related to maya, as (I think) Sri Sarabhanga expounded somewhere in HDF. Tara Sara Upanishad states this about the relationship of Time with Brahman:



That which is Om is the indestructible, the supreme and Brahman. That alone should be worshipped. It is this that is of the eight subtle syllables. And this becomes eight, being of eight forms. 'A' is the first letter; 'U' is the second; 'M' is the third; Bindu is the fourth; Nada is the fifth; Kala is the sixth; Kalatita (that beyond Kala) is the seventh; and that which is beyond these is the eighth. It is called Taraka, because it enables one to cross this mundane existence. Know that Taraka alone is Brahman and it alone should be worshipped”.

Tara Sara Upanishad, ch.II




Time Travel must be a possibility for Yogis. Because of the existance of texts like nADi granthas which are able to predict the past, present and even the future of individuals sometimes with pinpoint accuracy.


I think Yogis read the past, present and future from the Akashic Records, existence of which is indicated by this verse:

Chitra guptam mahaa praajnam lekhaneepatra dhaarinam;
Chitra-ratnaambara-dhaararn madhyastham sarvadehinaam.

The Chitra Guptas, who are endowed with great intelligence and copious memory, keep records and preserves on leaves with pencil, the memory of every act of the souls. Wearing jewels of precious stones, they mediate as umpire between all souls that are embodied.

What the nADi granthas contain and whether the text manifested in them is static or appears dynamically (!) is a mystery closely guarded, though there are many less qualified and commericially-minded practitioners in the field. I think they are a fit subject for a separate discussion.

The point as I understand it is that the passing of Time is manifested in the Akashic Records in space, which is what the Yogis read to get their information, rather than doing a time travel.



Time does not need space for existance. Even in deep sleep, when the world is not seen. we are still aware of time subconsciously, so that when we wake up we exclaim "What a nice sleep I had!!". The time factor appears to be attenuated/dilated in the absence of space because we imagine to have been in deep sleep for hours, yet we note that only a little time has passed, and vice versa.


Time is described in our Puranas as Garuda, MahaVishnu's vehicle using which he travels over space. But MahaVishnu is supposed to pervade all forms as his very name indicates, so how can He travel in his vehicle over space? The meaning of this symbolic representation, I think is that, MahaVishnu as a form of Cosmic Consciousness is simultaneously focussed at every point in space, watching every tiny little event that happens over that point in space. The events are recorded in an eternal now in the Akashic Records, which are part of His Cosmic Consciousness.

In deep sleep we do reside in space; there is no absence of space, which might be the case in Turiya. When we are in a state of deep sleep that is beyond emotions, thoughts and intellect, the Jiva gets back to its source which is Atman that exists in space. Time remains the same in its measure in deep sleep, though we don't feel it. The feeling of attenuation/dilation of time is a subjective delusion that occurs afterwards when we wake up.



Time does not need space for existance.


I don't know how you can categorically say this. As Yajvan would be happy to say, space or Akasha is the final Absolute Reality that is the very Brahman.



Chhandogya-Upanishad I-ix-1:

(Salavatya) 'What is the essence of this world ?' 'Akasa' said (Pravahana); 'All these beings arise from Akasa alone and are finally dissolved into Akasa; because Akasa alone is greater than all these and Akasa is the support at all times.'


Does Time disappear when Creation ends? If it does how is the next cycle of Creation is timed? These are interesting questions.

[saidevo]

Namaste Devi Sarada ji.



As you so eloquently illucidated in your post. Time is an Illusion.
I will post more later, but right now, I haven't the Time.:naughty:


A friend of mine used to chide me when I said, 'I have no time' and reply, 'Say you cannot find time. Everyone has only 24 hours of time.' But since time as a personal perception is more keenly felt than its objective reality, I think you are right in saying 'I haven't the Time', as we say when we are at complete leisure: 'I have all the time in the world.'

[Madhavan]

Namaste Saidevo,


Namaste Madhavan.

There is so much that we can discuss about Time and Space.


Yes, indeed!




How does Time exist, as a subjective perception, or an objective reality? I think that Time, as you said is a lower level of reality. It is objective in its existence because it is measureable and the measurements stay the same for everyone, though the perception of them is subjective. Being an objective reality, I think, that Time is better described as an illusion rather than as delusion.


This is my point. Time is subjective, and not objective. That is why it is a delusion instead of being an illusion. For eg, 1 day of Brahma is equal to 4.32 billion years for us. I hope you are aware of the story of how Balarama(brother of Krishna) weds Revati, which would show how time is subjective. When millions of years pass on earth, hardly a few seconds pass in the Satyaloka.



kAlA is a name for Lord Yama Dharmaraj, and yama is related to maya, as (I think) Sri Sarabhanga expounded somewhere in HDF. Tara Sara Upanishad states this about the relationship of Time with Brahman:


Mandukya states:

Om is the imperishable syllable. Om is the universe, and this is the exposition of Om. The past, the present and the future, all that is, all that will be, is Om. Likewise, all else that exists beyond the bounds of time, that too is Om

Time is pratyaxam brahma ~ ie, the visible manifestation of the otherwise hidden Brahman, while that which lies beyond time is the hidden Brahma.

Yamaraja is called KAla because he is the god of death. Time is called death symbolically because it takes away everything ultimately.





In deep sleep we do reside in space; there is no absence of space, which might be the case in Turiya. When we are in a state of deep sleep that is beyond emotions, thoughts and intellect, the Jiva gets back to its source which is Atman that exists in space. Time remains the same in its measure in deep sleep, though we don't feel it. The feeling of attenuation/dilation of time is a subjective delusion that occurs after we wake up.


I think there is no space in deep sleep. Space will exist in Turiya, because Turiya is the "all seer". Space is localized in the svapna and jAgrat states, and does not exist in shushupti. In shushupti, both svapna and jAgrat states are not present, but all these are present in Turiya because Turiya knows and sees all.






I don't know how you can categorically say this. As Yajvan would be happy to say, space or Akasha is the final Absolute Reality that is the very Brahman.


I dont agree with the translation of akAsha to space, if by space you mean the normal space(ether) we are familiar with. akAsha is a much more subtle concept encompassing a much broader meaning, though it might map to space in the world of gross elements.

In an ultimate sense, AkAsha is "cit AkAsha", which is pure consicousness.




Does Time disappear when Creation ends? If it does how is the next cycle of Creation is timed? This are interesting questions.

There is a concept called kalpAntara - the gap between two kalpas.

There is stillness of praLaya.
Then there is evolution of the universe lasting for a day of Brahma, after which Brahma is absorbed into Parabrahma, and this period is approx 4.32 billion years.
This is followed by praLaya, lasting another 4.32 billion years.
This is followed by the kalpAntara, lasting for 25.9 million years
This is followed by the next cycle.

Some astronomers like Bhaskara give a slightly different model by distributing the gap between yugas instead of kalpas.(yuga sandhi) There are also other views regarding this.

Though Time disappears apparently during praLaya due to the absence of observers, the time continuity is still retained by Para Brahma( who is kAlAtIta), and this is needed to preserve the kArmic integrity of the previous cycles. Thus time is linear, though apparently reset during every cycle, like a clock.

[saidevo]

Namaste Madhavan.

Quote:


How does Time exist, as a subjective perception, or an objective reality? I think that Time, as you said is a lower level of reality. It is objective in its existence because it is measureable and the measurements stay the same for everyone, though the perception of them is subjective. Being an objective reality, I think, that Time is better described as an illusion rather than as delusion.




This is my point. Time is subjective, and not objective. That is why it is a delusion instead of being an illusion. For eg, 1 day of Brahma is equal to 4.32 billion years for us. I hope you are aware of the story of how Balarama(brother of Krishna) weds Revati, which would show how time is subjective. When millions of years pass on earth, hardly a few seconds pass in the Satyaloka.


1. Your reference to the wedding of Revati with Balarama and the cosmic scales of Time brings up some interesting points to think about, on which my (current) impressions are as below:

Time has an objective existence like money (I think there is a saying 'Time is money'?). It is the scale of measurement of Time which is subjective, not Time itself as with money which is objective in nature but subjective in its form which is the currency. A rich tourist from the USA has an easy time in India, enjoying identical comforts of dining, staying and touring because one dollar is equivalent to nearly 45 rupees! It is this foreign exchange differences that facilitate multinationals to plunder developing countries like India, but that is entirely another issue.

A scale to measure time is based on a (relatively) permanent reference point in the universe and the nature and environs of life where the scale exists. For us humans, the reference point is the sun so we have our solar day and solar year that are based on how our own planet earth goes round itself and the sun. The solar day and year vary from being the shortest to the longest based on the distance of the planet from the sun. They also depend on the rotation and sidereal periods of a planet.

Suppose all the nine planets of our solar system have conditions to support life. Humans still can't live in any of these planets in the same physical body because of the difference in their time scales (due to their the rotation and sidereal periods) to which the human biological clock cannot adjust. Life forms have to be constituted differently to live in those planets.

This means that humans cannot live in the physical body in some environs with different time scales, because of the body's lower rates of vibrations. This also means that when God takes avatar in human form on the earth, he has to subject himself to the solar time scale and thus be bound by its limitations. Thus Sri Rama and Balarama showed themselves as completely human, though at times of necessity they displayed their divine power.

There were some amusing sci-fi themes based on space travel at velocities approaching the speed of light. What happens when one among the twin brothers goes on distant space travel and returns to earth? Here is a quote from an old illustrated book titled The Science in Science Fiction (which I bought some twenty years back and still possess).

"This astronaut has returned to Earth after a 5-year trip to the stars at near light-speed. Fifty years have passed on Earth and his identical twin brother who has come to the spaceport to meet him is now 75. The reunion is a strange one for both twins--in effect, one is seeing himself as he was, the other sees himself as he will be."

In this way, in Robert Heinlein's Time for the Stars, the hero cheerfully marries his great-great-niece!

2. I meant only AkAsha when I used its near English equivalent 'space'. Your observation "In an ultimate sense, AkAsha is 'cit AkAsha', which is pure consicousness" is wise and possibly accurate. It would be interesting to ponder how and why this pure consciousness needs to create so many time scales suitable to its space (AkAsha) of manifestation.

3. Thanks for the information about kAlAtIta when Time stays linear in the interval between praLaya and shrusti (dissolution and creation).

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Current scientific theory does not admit of the existence of Brahma. Then how it can corroborate with these times?

I think these times are both literal and symbolic. They are literal at the macrocosm and symbolic at the microcosm. Brahma's day and nights are comparable to our deep sleep experiences every day.

It should be noted that the authority for these are smritis and not shruti, and hence not very reliable.

Namaste Madhavan, devisarada, et.al.
[Madhavan, I will try and track down which Purana I seen the lifes of Siva, Visnu, etc outlined ]

I wanted to give some perspective on devisarada's post and your past question Madhavan, on 'life span' of Siva, Visnu, and Mother Divine.

Let me give my humble opinion on the 'science view' asked by devisaradha. When I was young, the astrophysicist's said the Universe is slowing down, and will get to a point where gravity will then reverse this expansion and will collapse back onto itself. They also said that the universe was about ~ 9 Billion years old.

Enter new physics and better equipment - now we 'see' that the universe doing just the opposite - speeding away faster and faster ( a paradigm for Brahmn - that which expands!, Maha-growth). And ooops! looks like the universe is not 9 billion in age but closer to 14 billion years old - off by 55%.

So when we ask has science concurred the numbers ( in general) - they are good human beings, but they depend on the quality of their instruments. The rishi's depended on the quality of their consciousness - without bounds, and residing in Ritambhara-prajna - lit. full of unalloyed truth - or that which only knows the Truth. That does not negate their fine work, yet they are somewhat constrained when we start to take in the scales-and-scope of infinity.

This Ritambhara-prajna , is a level of consciousness that one can attain ( me, you, satay, saidevo,Madhavan, etc) and use. This level of truth-consciousness holds no level of mis-conception. When we asked my teacher 'what if one wanted to know how many elephants were on this planet' - He said, then one would know this. That which only knows the truth , is the offer. This is the highest level of intuition that we can develop.

This is also found in the Yoga sutras of Patanjali as a siddhi. So science advances, their instruments will advance, yet I am in hopes their consciousness will also.

With regard to the lives of Siva, and Visnu, and Mother Divine - the numbers offer (not made up by me), truly suggests or gives us a feel of what the infinite may feel like , yes? These numbers are huge - but on that note, we are measuring it in earth years... Our earth takes 365 days to complete 360° around the sun. Think for a moment if the numbers were given in Galactic years ( our milky way) taking one trip around the center - 1 Milky Way year = 250 million earth years. And how many galaxies are there ?Billions. All floating and moving in akasha - without bounds. So perhaps a different measuring stick is warranted? not the lonely beautiful blue planet, a cosmic speck of beautiful blue dust in the ocean of space.

Take one life span of Siva = 70,668,288,000,000,000,000 earth years and change it to galaxy years, we get 282,673,152,000 for Siva's life span the number is 7X to 8X smaller in magnitude. .

So we can see when we change that 'yard stick' for measuring, the numbers change substantially. As would the life span of Brahma, etc. The level of infinity of space and time we are dealing with is huge and unfathomable.

Last, I think the notion of time is interesting and as you folks have been discussing. For me, it is just a tool for someone to count and meter out infinity. It never stops but someone wanted to count!

In another post we are also discussing time - and many say there is only 'Now'.

pranams,

[atanu]

The subject is fascinating.

Shri Krishna says 'kalosmi'. Kala, niyati, the world stage (space) all take birth from Turya Brahma.

In a universe devoid of Sun, the time would have altogether different meaning and standard, and the variables involved would be a) the speed of something which moves away from a fixed reference and b). the span of space in which the movement takes place. It is mind boggling to think of time in absence of Sun -- the kala Brahman.

I suppose that different divinities might have different sized stages in which their chitta flies with different agility and that is the origin of different scales cited herein by Shri Yajvan.

However, all this is in reference to the sthanu seer who is beyond time.


Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

---
However, all this is in reference to the sthanu seer who is beyond time.

Om Namah Shivaya

YV iv. 5. 1.

a Homage to thy wrath, O Rudra,
To thine arrow homage also;
Homage to thy bow,
And homage to thine arms.
b With thy most kindly arrow,
And kindly bow,
With thy kindly missile,
Be gentle to us, O Rudra.

-----------------

I think the arrow is what we call TIME.

Om Namah Shivaya

[saidevo]

Are we missing a dimension of time?

Itzhak Bars of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles talks about a two-dimensional time in four-dimensional space! A novel (perhaps crazy) idea that no one knows when or how will be experimented to conclusion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/10/10/scitime110.xml

More than the report, the comments provide a feast of ideas!

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Are we missing a dimension of time?

Itzhak Bars of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles talks about a two-dimensional time in four-dimensional space! A novel (perhaps crazy) idea that no one knows when or how will be experimented to conclusion. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/10/10/scitime110.xml

More than the report, the comments provide a feast of ideas!


Namaste saidevo,
Interesting... maybe you can unravel the following for me., from the article:

"In the quest for that all embracing theory, scientists have been adding extra dimensions of space to their equations for decades. As early as the 1920s, mathematicians found that moving up to four dimensions of space, instead of the three we experience, helped in their quest to reconcile theories of electromagnetism and gravity.
Today, theoreticians are studying a theory of everything called M-theory that adds yet another dimension, taking the total to 11: 10 of space and one of time."

four dimensions -I can see X,Y and Z space. If some one said you have to take apart X,Y,Z ( Cartesian coordinates) for positive and negative , then I see 6 directions. Yet the article says 4 dimensions - when I asked this before on other sites, the answer has been the 4th dimension is time. In this article it does not hold water. due to:
2 dimensions of time.... time 1 is present condition of the clock running forward or backward or not at all , in a linear representation time can look like this:
__________Past------------------NOW----------------------Future.

If there is a 2nd time coordinate what would be the metric?

M-theory that adds yet another dimension, taking the total to 11: 10 of space and one of time."I have watched a few science shows on this, asked questions again and again, yet I still have not captured anyone's definition of the 10 dimensions. the 11th dimension is time, and I get it, yet no one has explained the 10 dimensions in a manner that my pea brain can comprehend past say the first 3 or 4 (3 of cartesian) sometimes people throw gravity in as a dimension, and I get that, yet I am remiss on any definition of 5,6,7...10th dimension.

If you can 'crack the code' on this for me and other readers, it will be warmly welcomed.


pranams,

[saidevo]

Namaste Yajvan.

Mine is a pea brain too that finds it difficult to visually understand the 10 dimensions of space plus the 11th dimension of time. However, yesterday I read an interesting article by Paul Davies, a professor of theoretical physics. I understand the concepts presented in the article as below:

The 10+1 dimensions

The idea of attributing dimensions to an object is to describe its geometrical shape. Scientists today require 11 dimensions to describe the shape of space.

1. A point is a single, structureless entity in space that can be described with a single dimension. A straight line is a serial collection of points that requires one dimension to describe it.

2. A plane is a parallel collection of lines that requires two dimensions to describe it.

3. Space as a collection of planes coming under our direct experience and perceptible by the scientific physical sensors is of three dimensions having the Cartesian coordinates X, Y, Z.

4. Whatever the nature of time, it measures changes in space; the changes in space result in an alteration of its shape; so time is regarded by the scientists as the fourth dimension. The universe is described to be a space-time continuum.

Thus far it is clear, but where are the other seven dimensions of space?
The answer is, they are all warped inside the point!

Scientists explain the warped seven dimensions with the analogy of a hosepipe. Viewed from a distance, the hosepipe appears as a wiggly, one-dimensional line. Every point in the 'line' is, in fact, a little circle around the circumference of the tube.

Oskar Klein, the Swedish physicist in 1926 suggested that the fifth dimension proposed by Kaluza is not visible because it is shrunken to invisibility, like the 'points' in a hosepipe. Such a point in space is, in reality, a tiny circle going round the fifth dimension. We do not notice the extra dimension of space because it has been "compactified", or rolled up on itself to a very small size. size. Calculations put the circumference of this "tube" of space at about twenty powers of ten smaller than an atomic nucleus--far too small for us to have discerned it directly, even in sub-nuclear particle experiments.

Scientists today view every point in space, not as a tiny circle, but as a tiny sphere, that warps into seven dimensions. It is calculated by Cartan and other mathematicians that the seven-dimensional or for short the seven sphere is possessed of a number of unique geometrical properties that explain the high symmetry of the sphere.

With the point becoming a sphere, we can sort of understand the hidden or warped dimensions, though we can't visualize it.

Why do we require dimensions to describe space?

Space is the field of activity for the forces in the unverse. Perhaps space itself is a form of the basic energy in the universe. The different kinds of forces in the Newtonian physics were later unified by the scientists into two kinds: gravitational and electro-magnetic forces.

Albert Einstein, in his general theory of relativity published in 1915, abolished the force of gravity, replacing it by an enigmatic field of geometrical distortion, a warping, or curving, of space-time. According to general relativity, bodies are not pulled by forces of gravity at all, as Newton had claimed centuries before. They simply meander as effortlessly as possible through an underlying warped space-time.* Viewed this way, the curvature of the Earth's orbit around the Sun is not really due to a force of gravity, but is a reflection of the curvature of space-time in the Sun's vicinity.

Theodor Kaluza, in 1921, for the first time, tried to unify the two forces of gravity and electromagnetism into a single field theory and showed that electromagnetism can be regarded as a form of gravity--and here was the bizarre twist--the gravity of a fifth dimension. The theory abolishes electromagnetic forces, just as Einstein disposed of gravitational forces, and replaces them by warped geometry, this time five-dimensional geometry. In Kaluza's theory, an electromagnetic wave, such as a radio wave, is a ripple in the fifth dimension. The most remarkable feature of the theory is that Einstein's gravitational field equations, when extended to five dimensions, should reproduce exactly the laws of gravity and electromagnetism in the four space-time dimensions of direct experience.

Today, physicists recognise not two, but four basic forces of nature. In addition to gravity and electromagnetism, two nuclear forces, called weak and strong, have also been discovered. Any successful unified field theory would have to accommodate these two nuclear forces as well.

In the 1960s and 1970s, the scientists Steven Weinberg Abdus Salam, Sheldon Glashow and others proposed different "grand unified theories" (GUT for short) subsuming three apparently very different sorts of forces (with the exception of gravity).

As scientists research the microuniverse of the atomic and subatomic particles, they find apparently broken but distinctive symmetries in the structure of the force fields (which they 'gauge fields'). The presence of these crucial symmetries already hints that some sort of hidden geometry is at work in the operation of the forces of nature.

The story of expansion of the dimensions of space to accommodate and find the hidden symmetries goes on to include what are termed "messenger" particles such as the photons and gluons. For a more detailed account, check: http://feynman.physics.lsa.umich.edu/~mduff/talks/1984%20-%20The%20Eleven%20Dimensions%20of%20Reality/1984%20-%20The%20Eleven%20Dimensions%20of%20Reality.pdf

A 11-dimensional model of the universe

Why should the eleven dimensions of space warp into the 3+1 visible dimensions? In answering this question, scientists trace it to the origin of the universe itself. In physics, systems generally seek out a lowest state of energy. Thus the perceptible universe today is in the four dimensional space-time continuum at an optimal state of energy.

It is possible that the universe came into being with all the 10 dimensions of space on equal footing and somehow seven of them spontaneously decayed, curling up into a shrunken ball. After the big bang, the universe is found to be ever expanding, and the one universal force that is extant all over is the force of gravity, but gravity as we know it is a force of attraction, a pulling force. This part of the conundrum is explained with the view that space was not ordered but chaotic when the universe came into being, which resulted in the four-dimensional space-time to be stable and the other dimensions curling up on themselves.

Parallels in Hindu Philosophy

The eleven dimensions of space-time should obviously map somehow to the seven planes or worlds of nature that Hindu yogis and Theosophical clairvoyants have researched. The remaining three higher dimensions might belong to the Trinity. Time is the universal dimension of all the ten worlds that measures their conditional eternity.

Scientists cannot deny that our thoughts and emotions involve a form of basic energy, the energy of consciousness, and create ripples in space that are felt everywhere as in a laser hologram. It may be that we regularly 'see' and 'perceive' the fifth and other dimensions of space-time when we emote, think and dream, though not sufficiently aware of it.

Note:
Einstein's idea of bodies meandering "as effortlessly as possible through an underlying warped space-time" raises this question: if bodies are just 'meandering', how is that their paths are regular in shape? A meandering stream traces a random, curvy path over hills and plains but here the bodies have been tracing a uniform and regular path for eons of time. What keeps them stick to such a path?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~



Thus far it is clear, but where are the other seven dimensions of space?
The answer is, they are all warped inside the point!

Scientists explain the warped seven dimensions with the analogy of a hosepipe. Viewed from a distance, the hosepipe appears as a wiggly, one-dimensional line. Every point in the 'line' is, in fact, a little circle around the circumference of the tube.

Namaste saidevo.

Here is where I get the brain cramp...
I Can see the idea of the hose-pipe . And I Can see the notion of cross-sections of the hose being circles. Yet what I fail to see ( and it could be just me), there is no 'dimension' given to the 7 new dimensions eg. 4 +7 = 11 dimensions space.

If the suggestion is the other lokas we use in Sanatana Dharma, I am good to go. Yet I do not think the scientists are of that orientation.

The 'pickle' for me is , we describe the other dimensions ( the 7) with the analogies of the the 4 we know today ( X,Y,Z and time). While that is fine, I have not heard the notion of what the other dimension would be.
Lets say a person knows only fish and how they behave... I discribe a mermaid. A whole new paridigm of behavior. This allows the person to make the leap from one's 'fish' thinking to a completely new species of fish + human + air breathing above the water existence, talking, etc. A paridigm shift for the fish thinker.

An other example in space:
A simple example to stress my point. Just as you mentioned in your post of X.Y.Z coordinates.... If I talked to a person that only knew the X coordinate a horizontal line , I could say to him, let me explain this other dimension... it goes up and down, its vertical... it does not reside on horizonal plane. We will call you X, but this new dimensioon we're gonna call Y. Now, how 'bout that Mr. X! That would be 100% new information for that person.

Now, if we use the hose pipe analogy to talk of the other dimensions, there is nothing new in terms of coordinates time, space, spatial distances. I am still stuck in a Cartesian coordinate system even though I am using diameters, radius' and the like. its the same system. I do not see contrast... see my point?

We're talking about a new horse, yet we bring the same 'ol horse out from the barn. We [ the scientists] need to bring a unicorn out from the barn to tell us of a new horse design that is completely different , of a different dimension. Like that...
that is why my brain is stuck.
thank you for your patience on this and your ideas and insights as of late... very helpful -it allows me to articulate what I don't see!

Any help to unstick a few locked neurons is welcomed.

[realdemigod]

That was a rich discussion on 'Time'. I believe too that time is an illusion..mind creates it.. like saidevo mentioned in one of the posts above.. animals and blind people wouldn't be able to tell the time.. for them it should always be 'the present'. So is for eternity...it should be always 'present'. When you take time out of the picture..there is no question of beginning and end.. no question of creation of universe etc.,.

When Lord Krsna says how he and we all existed in the past and will exist in the future.. he must be telling.. there is no time..it's just an illusion.. it's 'eternal present' :)

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friends,

As many knowledgeable intellects have rightly pointed out many interesting inputs regarding the term Time, this explanation, gives yet another perspective to it....

Lets consider and analyse the following...

- The way we calculate time

Human Day and Night: Technically its the earth rotating on its axis which makes a part of earth facing the Sun get light and the other part not facing the Sun, stays without light from the Sun, directly....The Moon is present on the other side and reflects the Sun's light to provide subtle light to that part of earth which does not face the Sun....we human beings who live on this planet Earth, get complete light while the earth faces Sun and call this period as day and the other period where we see Moon providing light, we call it as night....

Year: Earth revolves around the Sun by tracing an elliptical path....We humans who live on earth consider any arbitrary point[day] in this cycle around the Sun as a starting point and when Earth completes the journey around the Sun and reaches the same arbitrary point, we say that a Year has been completed by Earth ....this technically means every point[day] in the elliptical path, can be considered as a starting point to count the year....as its not possible to locate a starting point in a circle which is already drawn...

Now Lets consider the birth of a child.....A Deha gets a JeevaAtma inside the womb of a mother by His grace...the Deha, which is formed by the seed and the egg, comes into existence when JeevAatma enters it...now comes the really interesting part.....The point at which the JeevaAtma enters the Deha is actually referenced by humans with the term "day"...we say that a woman is pregnant from a particular "day"....we also calculate and predict that the Deha with JeevaAtma comes out of the mothers womb after approximately 270 days[9 months]....
Now, the day, any Deha along with the JeevaAtma comes out of the mothers womb, we say that the child has "taken birth".....so from this point, when earth rotates and completes a 360 degrees, we imagine that the age of the child is one day...and after 365 rotations we go one step further and say that the child has completed "one year" and thus the age of the child is equal to a year....now this illusionary counting goes on till the the "day", the JeevaAatma leaves this particular body....and thus the total number of days divided by 365 gives the age of that particular person....that is the elapse of the term called "time".....

Now lets do some analysis...imagine if the Earth never rotated at all....imagine if the Sun was always shining on one side of the Earth....imagine if the Earth never revolved around Sun at all....imagine if Earth was a static entity.....now comes the difficult question...based on our delusion, what we call as a day and night, will not exist then....what we call as a year will not exist....now comes the interesting part...but still we would still simply have a "period" right from the point the child gets the JeevaAatma to the point it comes out of the mothers womb...we still would have a "period" between the point when the child comes out of the mothers womb till the point where JeevaAtma leaves the body....

now we still use the term "period" because, instead of keeping track of time based on months and years, we would get into the minute units like a second....

- Definition of a second

so how is the "second" scientifically defined..or how is a second measured....well we definitely need a "basis" to define the term "second"...based on the modern scientific calculations this is how a second is measured..

"the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom"[Wiki]

..well, lets just say caesium atoms, on planet earth, are stable enough to define a "constant period" of time which can be called as a "second"...now we use this constant period called "second", and go on adding the individual seconds and can still say that the period of time between JeevaAatma entering the Deha [birth]and leaving the Deha [death] is equal to "the total of the seconds added together, with the count starting at that point when JeevaAatma enters and stops when JeevaAtma leaves"...and we say that such a person lived for xxxxx number of seconds.....or using simple math, xxx number of years....

lets now come to reality....all we are doing again is just considering some "constant period[you can name it as a second or any other thing you want]" as a base and then go on adding this constant period to get a sum total....today, just because we have "regained" the knowledge regarding an "atom", we use it to define the time...earlier it was the pendulum which defined this "constant period" and before that it was the "sand glass"...and if Sun was used as a reference then it was the Sun Dial...and according to our Puranas, its the "eye blinks" that were used for calculating the "constant period"

the most important point of this explanation is that we always use some materialistic entity present in this nature to define a particular "constant period"....and then calculate everything keeping this "constant period" as a basis...

now it gets even more interesting....

this gives rise to another most important question...why do we "need" to have a "constant period"...what is its necessity.....

this constant period is needed for "measurement"...measurement is required for anything that has a starting and an ending point..that which is bound by a boundary...and the total number of "constant periods" gives the measurement of any particular thing that can be "measured"....this gives rise to another question...

what needs to be "measured" and why should we "measure" it?.....

This entire Universe has a beginning, a middle and an ending...Parabramha as "Kaala[Time]" enters Pradhana and brings it into existence, which is Prakruthi...So, the Entire Universe or Prakruthi itself is bound by the term time, everything inside it, made out of its elements also have a start, middle and end.....this entire Universe "ages based to time"...the materialistic deha, present inside the materialistic universe, which is produced by the combination of a materialistic seed and a materialistic egg, has again a point of formation....this Deha has a point where the JeevaAtma enters it...this deha has many points where it "grows" physically....and it has a point where it starts to wary and finally has a point when the JeevaAatma moves out of it.....

anything present withing the Universe, produced using the materials available in the Universe is bound by the term "decay or aging..meaning has an end"...now because the "physical materialistic" state of the Deha keeps on changing, the intellect assumes the knowledge that a "constant period[second]" continues to "elapse" which is indicated by the "state of the Deha"....and thus, the intellect learns that the term "time[constant period]" can be used to measure this......time which defines the term "constant period", is used by the intellect to measure the "state of materialistic Deha and pther perishable entities" and thus, the intellect concludes that, based on the sum of the constant period, a "particular" amount of "time" has elapsed....also the intellect starts to think that everything can be "measured".....thus unable to understand the term "immeasurable"

now in order to understand why this is a wrong way of understanding things, lets simply replace the term "Deha" by "Aatma" in the above paragraph and try to analyse...
The "Aatma", which is an instance of "Paramathma", does not have a point of formation[as the Aatma is always a part of Paramathma and only the Jeeva thinks that there are different Aatmas and they come into existence]....the "Aatma" does not "grow"...the "Aatma" does not wary nor decay....the "Aatma" does not have different states...the "Aatma" never changes itself[not referring to Aatma changing the Deha, but its own state].....and because there is no change in anything within the Aatma, the term "measurement", actually vanishes into thin air..there is no difference at any point and hence "Aatma" itself becomes the real constant....when the term measurement vanishes, there no meaning for the term "constant period" as nothing is needed as a base for measurement, as Aatma itself is constant....and when there no meaning for the term "period", there is no starting point or a middle or an ending point....and when there is no measurement, period, a start, a middle and an end, then the term "time", my dear friends, actually does not exist as a separate entity, instead, its seen as the "Aatma" itself ....and as "Aatma" itself is an instance of "Paramathma", where Paramathma Himself is the infinite, immeasurable, imperishable constant, which is time.......without a start or an end....without decay or death....

when we thus gain this real knowledge that the Aatma in us is Paramathma...the Aatma in us is the real constant...and just as the Paramathma enters as time bringing the materialistic Prakruthi into existence, Aatma enters a materialistic Deha , thus bringing it into existence, the mind slowly realisees the Self......the mind needs to understand this...the intellect needs to gain this knowledge....its only then the aham in the Jeeva starts to identify itself with the Aatma rather than the temporary Deha or the "guna" with which the mind is conditioned[the so called personality....]....when we know that everything is static..when we know that Aatma is a constant...when we gain knowledge that Aatma is beyond infinite...the mind and the intellect then see everything materialistic, disassociated with the term "time"....as the Aatma in everyone of us itself is the definition of time.....

[realdemigod]

I would like to restart this thread hoping that experts here would pour in their knowledge.
I was having time space discussion with two friends and got convinced that time can be defined as this world is relative and all our other units like meter, temperature..everything is relative. We can only define these terms with a reference.

It's obvious that time is a duration between two events which has reference inherent in itself. But like every other thing the very measurement of time became the definition of it.

I strongly feel that time is a mind concocted concept and an illusion..how do I counter my friends' points.

[wundermonk]

I strongly feel that time is a mind concocted concept and an illusion..how do I counter my friends' points.


The Big Bang occurred 13.7 Billion years ago. If sentient creatures having minds evolved only a few million years ago, what does the time 13.7 Billion years ago even refer to?:dunno:

In other words, if time is mind-dependent and sentient minds evolved only a few million years ago, we ought to see the beginning of time as having occurred only these few million years ago. Yet, we are able to talk of events 13.7 Billion years ago. This should refute those who claim that time is an illusion.

[Shuddhasattva]

The Big Bang occurred 13.7 Billion years ago. If sentient creatures having minds evolved only a few million years ago, what does the time 13.7 Billion years ago even refer to?:dunno:

In other words, if time is mind-dependent and sentient minds evolved only a few million years ago, we ought to see the beginning of time as having occurred only these few million years ago. Yet, we are able to talk of events 13.7 Billion years ago. This should refute those who claim that time is an illusion.

Namaste

May I suggest that interpretation of this would lie in how we define mind - is it an emergent biological property born of chemical and electromagnetic computations of innate physical information?

Or is matter, energy, information, space and even time a property of pure consciousness?

If seen in this light, I do not think it is contradictory to say that time is born of the Mind, and essentially illusory, in that it is a product of a transient manifestational power, that in the 'grand scheme' can be likened as dreams.

We might say that there are an infinite amount of infinitesimal 'moments,' or there are no moments whatsoever.

I think it's not so much that time is an illusion - and it is, but that our perception of time is not only an illusion, it's a delusion whereby we are falsely confined to the present moment, notwithstanding our feeble attempts to remember or speculate.

I am informed that mystical experienced relating to perception of time often encounter viewing many "moments" simultaneously, the feeling that time is beginningless and endless, always advancing from one experience to the next, eternally changing, eternally experiencing moments - an infinite length of time, as well as the seemingly paradoxical feeling that time doesn't exist meaningfully, there are no 'moments,' no change, and everything is as it always was.

Or perhaps put another way, maya perceived without egoic obscurations is no different than brahman.

One of the philosophical implications of modern physics is that in a 10(11) dimensional universe as posited by M-theory, building on a foundation of both quantum mechanics and relativity, lower-dimensional realities are, for all their projected 'realness,' like information coded onto a (figuratively) two dimensional membrane in the overall dimensions 'above' it. In otherwords, we're already living in Flatland, a simulation, a holographic play of sound and light.

One of the implications is that in the root dimension - the 11th, all branes are "computed" instantly - without process, all things are occurring both simultaneously and endlessly. As we near such a thing conceptually, the concept of time 'melts' and becomes ambiguous.

Namaste

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

A common term in jyotish is muhūrta , equaling 48 minutes and there are 30 muhurta in a 24 hr. period. Yet we will find an 'atom of time' called out as the 54,675,000th part of a muhūrta. This = 0.000052675 seconds.


Yet too we have nimeṣa - a blink of the eye. 18 nimeṣa = kāśtha.
This nimeṣa can be further torn ( truṭ त्रुट् = to be torn or split ) to a truṭi त्रुटि - an unfathomably small space of time… one definition I heard was the time it takes light to pass the width of 1 atom. It is here were people have used the term moment to define this light to pass the width of 1 atom.

So too we should be able to go smaller , no ? For light to pass the distance of one particle, or one proton ? This thing we call time seems to be able to always be defined smaller or larger depending on ones conversation.

Yet it seems to me, we are only measuring 'now'. This 'now' never changes and has no demension far as I can tell, yet we use it as a word to define a component of time. If I was alive a billion years ago and said it is now, it would also hold true for me to say the same today, it is 'now'. In both cases 'now' has never changed its component as it is not locked into any location of space or time.

It suggests to me that time only measures the infinite now. That time is a man-made tool. It may be used in other galaxies, yet their version of time may be based upon completely different cycles, yet their 'now' will be the same as ours. Hence 'now' is completely independent and universal by nature. No matter where you are , its always now.


praṇām

[realdemigod]

In other words, if time is mind-dependent and sentient minds evolved only a few million years ago, we ought to see the beginning of time as having occurred only these few million years ago. Yet, we are able to talk of events 13.7 Billion years ago. This should refute those who claim that time is an illusion.

Thanks all for your comments.

wundermonk - Like yajvan mentioned before time can only be defined as 'duration between the occurrence of two events'..and I don't think humans should have any trouble comprehending an event which happened before the evolution of mind. We don't need to know through direct experience to perceive an event..the mind can do it.

I agree with yajvan's comments we can only define in philosophical terms 'Time is Now'. But the way of measuring time has become the definition of it and it's hard for some people to deny.

[wundermonk]

Thanks all for your comments.

wundermonk - Like yajvan mentioned before time can only be defined as 'duration between the occurrence of two events'..and I don't think humans should have any trouble comprehending an event which happened before the evolution of mind. We don't need to know through direct experience to perceive an event..the mind can do it.

I agree with yajvan's comments we can only define in philosophical terms 'Time is Now'. But the way of measuring time has become the definition of it and it's hard for some people to deny.

This goes back to the old realism vs idealism debate waged between Nyaya/Vaiseshika/Mimamsa on one hand arguing for realism and Advaita/possibly Samkhya/other Buddhist schools on the other hand arguing for an idealistic world view.

The Nyaya response is multi-faceted. One response is that our usage of linguistic terms (in normal circumstances) is caused by real extraneous referrents. So, our usage of terms like past, present, future, etc. is caused by the existence of a real extraneous mind-independent entity called time that is one, all-pervasive and eternal.

Second response is that time cannot begin - for time to begin, it means that there was a time when there was no time. This is a straightforward logical contradiction.

OTOH, there is the Samkhyan view according to which time is dependent on change. Per Samkhya, Prakriti is constantly evolving and hence we can can explain everything that happens in this world by referring to the change in Prakriti alone. Applying the principle of economy we can do away with the need to postulate the existence of an entity called "time". This does not personally appeal to me because there is no need to believe that time is dependent on change rather than the other way around.

There are other Nyaya arguments that, time permitting :p , I will bring to this thread.

[realdemigod]

I don't know many of the things you mentioned..so can't comment :D