Were Dalits really discriminated by Brahmins as many claim

[The Occult]

This is a a very specific topic in the whole discussion of caste system

We already know that Hinduism as a religion does not preach caste system.There are so many compelling evidences for that.So the problem is not there.So the "caste system" was not practiced for 1000s of years as many would claim

But then many of the Dalits,rationalists and DK's join the bandwagon of accusing Brahmins for isolating them for 1000's of years.

Also most of the Brahmins of today's generation believe in what was being said and agree with them without proper research

They even say "What can we do for our ancestors mistakes done 1000 years back"

That's quite annoying.They dont bother to do some research on what really happened,whether it was a part of the scriptures or something like that really happened or if IT WAS a PLOY by the Bristishers to create differences.

So I'd to know if such a thing really happened and if it had happened, were Brahmins responsible for it(Remember caste based discrimination exists even in other castes)

[wundermonk]

How exactly are you going to verify whether whatever is offered in response is accurate or not?

[The Occult]

Hmm....By Cross checking with other sources of information and see if there is a consistency.

However,if everyone is incorrect, then it may not be possible to know

[TTCUSM]

Thiru Occult,

The concept of untouchability probably came from Buddhism. If you look at places outside of India where Buddhism spread, you will find groups of people that are considered untouchable, like the burakumin of Japan and the baekjeong of Korea.

[Svapnaja]

Thiru Occult,

The concept of untouchability probably came from Buddhism. If you look at places outside of India where Buddhism spread, you will find groups of people that are considered untouchable, like the burakumin of Japan and the baekjeong of Korea.

The Buddha addressed the concept of untouchability native to India, refuting its grounds for existing. The Brahmins were said to be born from the mouth of Brahma, while the other castes were born from progressively lower places, and the outcastes from no place associated with Brahma at all. All of this was supposedly determined by heavenly dictate as described by the scriptures of Sanatana Dharma. Each caste served its purpose in society, and its members were destined to be reborn into the same tier of the social hierarchy forever, with no power to change their destiny. The Buddha took the existing practice of caste discrimination and criticized its very foundation, asserting that birth does not destine an individual to any rank whatsoever; action (free will) in this very life can bring one to higher states or lower states. This served as the basis for many Dalits' conversion to Buddhism under the movement led by Ambedkar.

[sanjaya]

I know this is precisely the response you don't want to hear, but regardless of what happened in earlier times (whether a thousand years ago or 50 years ago), I think the principle issue here is the legal treatment of Brahmins in India today. My understanding is that in India there are various quota systems in place. We can't even get into the best colleges without having to contend with other castes who are given an artificial advantage. I suppose that in the States this would be called affirmative action.

The problem is that quotas do nothing to ease relations between castes. They only build more resentment. If indeed the modern version of the caste system was invented by the British, would it not be appropriate for the legal system to make no caste distinction whatsoever, and operate on a pure meritocracy? I think this would be a far more equitable system than what is currently in place.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Sanjaya et al: I can never decide on this issue. In the US without some form of quotas or scholarships or something, it would only be rich and upper middle class that could go to school. There needs to be some kind of system to allow for underprivileged to attend higher institutions. Here in Canada the untouchables are the natives or aboriginals or First Nations peoples. When I was in university in the early 70s the population of the school was around 20 000 (University of Alberta in Edmonton) Despite First nations numbers in Canada being over a million, there were 3 people at the entire university. You figure the disproportionate representation. (It works out to 800) Things have improved somewhat but its still there. The sad thing for me is how these kinds of things make it so we miss out on a very valuable resource: people.

In India it was discouraging to have the 8 year old beggars at the car door or the coffee stop. Certainly not sure of any solutions, just observations.

Aum Namasivaya

[wundermonk]

Each caste served its purpose in society, and its members were destined to be reborn into the same tier of the social hierarchy forever, with no power to change their destiny.

Nope...Which Varna one belongs to depends on past Karma/actions. It is not decided and set for all times to come by birth. People have and change their Varna in their current birth itself. I can give you some examples if you so desire.

Nice try though.

PS: I have no problems when people attack birth-based varna system. I have a big problem when people after doing this tout another religion, religion X, as superior to Hinduism because religion X does not have the caste system. Advaita Vedanta destroyed and exposed the flaws in the very foundations of Buddhism. Xity and Islam are fundamentally damaged because of the Adam/Eve story. Nobody [mostly theists of other flavour who post here] seems to realize this. Why? That they did not have the caste system [which is actually untrue...For instance, I can quote Hadiths which have an equivalent version of the caste system when they claim the Arab race is superior to others. If I look in the Bible I am sure I will find verses which specify how a master can treat a slave, etc.] does not make these other religions correct. :)

[The Occult]

For instance, I can quote Hadiths which have an equivalent version of the caste system when they claim the Arab race is superior to others. If I look in the Bible I am sure I will find verses which specify how a master can treat a slave, etc.] does not make these other religions correct. :)


Thats precisely why they do conversion because according to them only if a person beliefs in Islamic faith,they can be be accepted by God.Likewise for X-ity.Here in Santhana Dharma, one can even be an ATHEIST and be a Hindu.Also two form of Atheists exist, one who follows the Vedas and one who does NOT follow, but both are accepted.I dont think I can get this kind of freedom in any other religion

[wundermonk]

Thats precisely why they do conversion because according to them only if a person beliefs in Islamic faith,they can be be accepted by God.Likewise for X-ity.

You are absolutely right! These people despise birth-based caste system [which has no sanction from Sruthi texts, Vedas, Upanishads, Brahmasutras, BG] yet seem to find solace in a divine God that discriminates amongst humans based on whether they worshipped the right prophet or messenger regardless of how people have lived! According to them, Mahatma Gandhi burnt in hell! Thats their religion! Talk of hypocrisy!

Will heaven really be eternally peaceful for a true believer [of the Islamic/Xian type] when they know that their friends and relatives who remained/converted to Hinduism are being burnt next door in hell? If I were in that heaven and could hear the screams and cries of my friends and relatives, heaven would turn out to be eternal hell for me.

While birth-based caste system may have led to conversions out of Hinduism, it was more done out of spite for Hinduism rather than the inherent superiority of Xity or Islam or Buddhism. It is a classic case of cutting the nose to spite the face.

That is why the caste problem is continuously highlighted by Xians and Muslims. They have nothing else against Hinduism. The funny part is even AFTER converting to Islam/Xity some of these converts still hold onto their past castes! Why else would people be called as "Dalit Christians"? Are there "Brahmin Christians"? I am sure there are ;)

Xity and Islam have nothing that can even be called as philosophy/metaphysics. Buddhism does but it suffers from fundamental holes [momentariness, Sunyata, cause-effect relationship, etc.] which were exploited by Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhavacharya to reassert the Vedic tradition.

Edited to Add: Forget about friends and relatives. Even if I know that some unknown stranger is being burnt in hell eternally for the ONLY crime of not believing in JC/Mo, I want to have nothing to do with such a theology. I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

[The Occult]

. The funny part is even AFTER converting to Islam/Xity some of these converts still hold onto their past castes! Why else would people be called as "Dalit Christians"? Are there "Brahmin Christians"? I am sure there are ;)


Yeah, exactly,they called themselves Dalit Christians so that they can ask for reservation on the basis that they are "Dalit".It looks like it can happen only in India that way.



Xity and Islam have nothing that can even be called as philosophy/metaphysics. Buddhism does but it suffers from fundamental holes [momentariness, Sunyata, cause-effect relationship, etc.] which were exploited by Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhavacharya to reassert the Vedic tradition.


Obviously, how can going to heaven or hell, living in a paradise,enjoying,experiencing pleasures be considered "Spiritual".Its like another vacation resort even though its not in this material world.What difference it makes?.I heard a X-ian saying in a talk show about Having a craze for jewellery.She said that "I dont want gold because in Heaven I'm going to have all these and compared to what I have in heaven,this is nothing"..... You might as well have those pleasures in this material world itself,why do you have to go to place after death to see the same olf things that you have seen in this physical world?

Spirituality is supposed to give you a peace of mind,not happiness or pleasures.Ultimately, what matters is peace of mind and that's the essence of our philosophy.Anyone who follows this be it an atheist or agnostic or a theist ,no matter whether he/she has read Vedanta or not, has grasped the essence of the message.

[Mana]

Namasté

To my mind varNa is an observation (look at the Sanskrit translations) of a shape that occurs naturally over time within the growth of Dharma. In English history this is observed in the tradition of the second or family name reflecting ones trade or status.

I believe this stems originally from the observation of the growth of tribes.

This varNa builds up over time, like the growth of a tree. But eventually it becomes unstable. See Bhagavad Gita 1, 38-46

This is a cycle that's been observed for thousands of years. It may well have been more apparent in the past.

Well that's my take on this anyhow.

Pranam

Mana

[Believer]

The discrimination or mistreatment happens at many levels. There are layers of stratification of the Indian society. White collar workers look down upon the blue collar workers, and the professionals don't want to associate with plain old white collar workers, and many officers in the armed forces consider the 'civilians' to be non-disciplined and would not want their daughters marrying one; and everyone disdains the lowly janitors/shoe-lace-retippers/butchers. So, Brahmins did/do not have a monopoly on mistreating the dalits. The social structure consists of 'groups' of people based on their intellect/profession/looks/money making ability, and all vie for prominence. With concerted effort to eradicate the lines of separation through quota system and dalits capturing some prominent political power positions, things are changing, but that does not stop a white collar dalit from mistreating a janitorial type of dalit. It is the nature of humans to create groups/classes based on different criteria and to attach value to each group. This is not in any way an idea propagated in India only; it is done all over the world albeit without the varna labels.

Getting back to the main topic, the level of respect one gets from his fellow beings depends on his station in life. Brahmins were/are not the only ones mistreating the dalits. Britishers had nothing to do with this phenomenon. Hinduism teaches respect for humans of all trades, and for that matter respect for all kinds of life. But the actual practice of principles leaves a lot to be desired. And that is true with everyone, not just the Brahmins. On any given day, most of us feel either like a pigeon or like a statue.;) But for people at the bottom rung of the ladder, every day is like being a statue.

[Eastern Mind]

On any given day, most of us feel either like a pigeon or like a statue.;) But for people at the bottom rung of the ladder, every day is like being a statue.

Vannakkam Believer: Nice summary. First time I heard this metaphor. The similar one I heard was: Sometimes I feel like a dog; sometimes I feel like the fire hydrant.

Let us not forget that nowadays, Brahmins also take abuse. Over here in North America, for example, some of the temples pay their priests a pittance compared to similar professions. Some even have policies encouraging devotees to not give dakshina. So you are absolutely right. it comes and goes on all levels. Until we are truly able to see God in all beings, this will continue.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Namasté

To my mind varNa is an observation (look at the Sanskrit translations) of a shape that occurs naturally over time within the growth of Dharma. In English history this is observed in the tradition of the second or family name reflecting ones trade or status.

I believe this stems originally from the observation of the growth of tribes.

This varNa builds up over time, like the growth of a tree. But eventually it becomes unstable. See Bhagavad Gita 1, 38-46

This is a cycle that's been observed for thousands of years. It may well have been more apparent in the past.

Well that's my take on this anyhow.

Pranam

Mana


I've always thought the same thing. It's consistent with most of what I read in the Gita, however in the passage you cited Arjuna seems to lament at the mixing of castes as a result of adharma. Do you believe that Arjuna is expressing an incorrect opinion here?

[The Occult]

Getting back to the main topic, the level of respect one gets from his fellow beings depends on his station in life. Brahmins were/are not the only ones mistreating the dalits. Britishers had nothing to do with this phenomenon. Hinduism teaches respect for humans of all trades, and for that matter respect for all kinds of life. But the actual practice of principles leaves a lot to be desired. And that is true with everyone, not just the Brahmins. On any given day, most of us feel either like a pigeon or like a statue.;) But for people at the bottom rung of the ladder, every day is like being a statue.


Yeah, I agree with you on that point that there might have been a discrimination but that is not something that was done only by brahmins.At this point, I must say that there is a still a lot of caste based bloodshed going on in villages,just to show which caste is superior.These things have nothing to do with Brahmins.Coming to the main point, so yes, there must have been some discrimination but maybe it was not a big issue of concern.This was where Britishers have a role to play,I must say, they made a mountain of a mole to use it to create differences and invade our country

[Mana]

I've always thought the same thing. It's consistent with most of what I read in the Gita, however in the passage you cited Arjuna seems to lament at the mixing of castes as a result of adharma. Do you believe that Arjuna is expressing an incorrect opinion here?

Namasté

To my mind Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of society and thus the loss of the structure, the distinct paths that were the varNa at that time, this IS Adharma; the very reason Krishna is manifest.

Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of the spiritual form which has grown over many generations.

Whilst these structures exist there is stability and peace in society. When they break into turmoil, for whatever reason; there is an onset of competition. Competition for rank and status.

There exists a socio/biological dynamic which comes into play in these times of stress which triggers aggression and dominance. (This is observable today within the human genome).

This competition can be likened to the behaviour of other primates and pack animals. If we look for example, to the behaviour of Gorillas at the time of the replacement of the Alpha male, we see a similar effect.

A bit like nature reshuffling the deck.

No tree lasts for ever.

Pranam

Mana

[Believer]

The similar one I heard was: Sometimes I feel like a dog; sometimes I feel like the fire hydrant.

A fire hydrant does not get the full brunt of abuse as a statue does.;)

[Eastern Mind]

A fire hydrant does not get the full brunt of abuse as a statue does.;)

:) Vannakkam: All depends on the size of the dog, and how much he drank for breakfast.

One fine unsuspecting day I was walking merrily along this sandy palm-lined beach where there were many seagulls ... now that's more full of karmic abuse ... human hair collects better than a statue.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Namasté

To my mind Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of society and thus the loss of the structure, the distinct paths that were the varNa at that time, this IS Adharma; the very reason Krishna is manifest.

Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of the spiritual form which has grown over many generations.

Whilst these structures exist there is stability and peace in society. When they break into turmoil, for whatever reason; there is an onset of competition. Competition for rank and status.

There exists a socio/biological dynamic which comes into play in these times of stress which triggers aggression and dominance. (This is observable today within the human genome).

This competition can be likened to the behaviour of other primates and pack animals. If we look for example, to the behaviour of Gorillas at the time of the replacement of the Alpha male, we see a similar effect.

A bit like nature reshuffling the deck.

No tree lasts for ever.

Pranam

Mana

Thank you for explaining. If I may inquire a bit further: this explanation makes sense except for verse 41, which specifies the intermingling of castes. Does this refer to something other than marriages between people of different castes?

[Mana]

Thank you for explaining. If I may inquire a bit further: this explanation makes sense except for verse 41, which specifies the intermingling of castes. Does this refer to something other than marriages between people of different castes?

Ouch, I have just shocked my self whilst researching my response. Although I have already a complexed image in my mind as to how this translates to our human condition. I had not realised that an analogy I make to chimpanzees had been quite so rude. This may shock some readers for that I am sorry.

Please remember that I am writing about the human condition in times of social corruption.

It is undoubtedly Women who decide that which prevails in the human mating ritual. With this choice they decide and direct our future. Much to the males lament.

If the majority of women find that a strong dominant violent male is attractive in that these are the characteristics most likely to bring success to their children. That is exactly what we become. If they find that intelligence and wisdom to be more suited then males adapt accordantly. We males in the majority (If we are honest) just dance to the tune that is set.

Males will, when given free rein; mate with as many females as possible. Biologically this is the best way to insure the continuation of the biological lineage (this says nothing of spiritual lineage and the evolution of intelligence and wisdom).

Women however have much more at stake and a much greater investment to make, they will select the male with the highest status/dominance who is the most likly to stay around to protect his family. They will not hesitate when pushed to switch to a more suitable partner. (this says nothing of spiritual lineage and the evolution of intelligence and wisdom).

I suspect that in some tribal forms this can quickly degenerate and may have emerged from groups of females who stick together and select there breading male from the group that they allow to follow them.

I can assure any who find this hard to believe, to go out in a social environment in the (socially corrupt) West and observe a group of women of 5 or more out together for pleasure, their sexual nature becomes highly predatory.

It is also worth observing that in the West 1 in 3 children are not of their believed father, the Mother is deceiving both the father and the child.

If I remember correctly, this statistic is taken from Jared Diamonds "The Third Chimpanzee".

I can also justify this statement, by stating that several women have proposed to me that I father their children whilst they marry another (one even said marry an idiot).

I find this behaviour hard to accept as I am very aware of the importance of the spiritual bond between Father and child should we desire the success of the more empathetic gentle children.

In times of change (social corruption) such as these peoples behaviour becomes highly motivated by fear and anxiety, reason leaves as our lowest instincts take over. For the direst example of what may occurs we can look to our evolutionary brothers the chimpanzee, with whom we share our genetic code; it being 98% identical. Infanticide is a regular occurrence. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=chimpanze+infanoside#hl=en&sa=X&ei=AOFZTvXwMsXFtAbDw5DLCg&ved=0CB8QvwUoAQ&q=chimpanzee+infanticide&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=b62454da27284b07&biw=1332&bih=779)

An entire thesis could be written on sloka 41 alone, I highly recommend the writing of Jared Diamond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Diamond) for reading on these subjects.

As I quote him from memory "Human sexuality is an extremely difficult field to study, when questioned on the subject; most people lie."



Pranam

Mana

[Mana]

I should like to add as an observation that, nearly all our traditional professions in the West have been made obsolete by the ruling multinational corporations. Who have rendered financially obsolete nearly every traditional independent trade and market. Is this not the collapse of varNa?