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Svapnaja
22 August 2011, 12:34 PM
How early does the notion of Brahman as the impersonal Absolute appear in the history of Sanatana Dharma? What are some of the earliest scriptures that explain it thus (Nirguna Brahman)? Most of the limited information I've encountered suggests it is a later contrivance of Adi Shankara and the Advaita Vedantists, but I'm unsure of what to think. Does a gender-neutral Supreme Godhead receive any mention in the early Vedas?

Any guidance would be much appreciated.

wundermonk
24 August 2011, 11:05 PM
I think all Vedanta Darshanas have Vedic verses to justify their POV. Many schools have different ways of interpreting verses because of differing rules of Sanskrit grammar, etc. In the Brahmasutras, for instance, the number of sutras themselves are different between the various Darshanas. This is because in some cases, the starting word/syllable of one sutra is considered to be associated with a previous sutra according to different schools.

I think Advaitins usually point out to the opening verses of the Nasadiya Sukta to bolster their claim of a Nirguna Brahman.

Would you consider the Upanishads early enough? I will probably be able to give you more verses that point to a Nirguna Brahman if you allow for them.

After all the Vedantins like Adi Shankara hold the Upanishads supreme.

Arjuni
24 August 2011, 11:33 PM
Namasté,

How delightful; I was reading book IV of the (http://www.mantraonnet.com/upanishads/kausitaki-book4.html)Kauṣītāki Upaniṣad (http://www.mantraonnet.com/upanishads/kausitaki-book4.html) as Wundermonk posted the reply about the Upaniṣads.

Svapnaja, I can't claim that as the earliest reference by far, but it's one of many responses you'll likely receive regarding your interesting question. :)

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Ananda
25 August 2011, 12:25 AM
Hello Svapnaja,



How early does the notion of Brahman as the impersonal Absolute appear in the history of Sanatana Dharma? What are some of the earliest scriptures that explain it thus (Nirguna Brahman)? Most of the limited information I've encountered suggests it is a later contrivance of Adi Shankara and the Advaita Vedantists, but I'm unsure of what to think. Does a gender-neutral Supreme Godhead receive any mention in the early Vedas?

The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is considered by many to be the oldest of the Upanishads, and it abounds with references to Brahman as the impersonal absolute. The famous phrase 'neti neti' (not this, not this) as a description of Brahman is found in this Upanishad. The Brihadaranyaka is also, in my opinion, the strongest advocate of Advaita to be found amongst the major Upanishads.

saidevo
25 August 2011, 08:56 AM
namaste Svapnaja and others.

As the following shloka from the bhagavad gItA says, AUM, tat and sat are the three designations of Brahman.

ॐतत्सतिदि निर्देशो ब्रह्मणस्त्रिविधः स्मृतः ।
ब्रह्मणस्तेन वेदाश्च यज्ञाश्च विहिताः पुरा ॥ १७.२३ ॥

oumtatsatidi nirdesho brahmaNastrividhaH smRutaH |
brahmaNastena vedAshcha yaj~jAshcha vihitAH purA || 17.23 ||

17.23: AUM tat sat is held to be the threefold designation of Brahman. On account of that, the rituals pertaining to Brahman, the Vedas and sacrifice were ordained in ancient times.

• AUM refers to the shabda brahman, the first manifestation of Brahman as the primordial sound, which is the basis of all creation.

• tat refers to 'that'--'all that is'--denoting the Self as the single, absolute substratum of all the chetana--sentient, and achetana--insentient beings of the universe.

• sat refers to the 'absolute truth', that which is not evanescent or ephermal, which is the only underlying, universal reality.

With this prescription from shrI KRShNaparamAtma, it becomes rather easy for us to trace the earliest occurrences of these three terms in our shruti--Vedic texts.

AUM

In the Veda mantras, AUM is intoned to tune in with the shabda brahman, whose saguNa form is adored and worshipped in the sacrifices. The following quote from TU is clear about what AUM means:

• aumiti brahma, aumitIdaM sarvaM |
--taittirIya upaniShad 1.8
"AUM is Brahma(n); AUM is all this."

In addition, AUM is recited in the shAnti mantras of the upaniShads as:
AUM shAntiH shAntiH shAntiH.

tat

The earliest reference of tat is perhaps the famous gAyatrI mantra:

tat savitur vareNyaM bhargo devasya dhImahi |
dhiyo yo naH prachodayAt ||--RV 3.62.10

That (tat or Brahmam) which creates and vivifies everything (savitur) is the best for worship (vareNyam). On that light (bhargo) of the divine (devasya), let us meditate on (dhImahi), because it is that which (yo) kindles and inspires (prachodayAt) our (na) intellect (dhiyo).

sat

• ekaM sad viprA bahudhA vadanti----Rg-veda 1.164.46
"It is of One Existence/Reality/Truth that the wise ones speak in diverse ways..."

There are other references to sat, satyam, but I think this quote from RV is the earliest:

satyam jnAnam anantam brahma
--taittirIya upaniShad 2.1.1
"Brahman is truth, knowledge, and infinite."

brahma(n)

In the Veda mantras, brahma is a term signifying pious effusion or utterance, outpouring of the heart in worshipping the gods, prayer, etc.

• Vedas themselves are known as brahma, which is why a student of the Vedas is known as a brahmachArin.

• Notice how the term refers to Brahman in the quote AUM iti brahma given above.

• "Great indeed are the devas who have sprung out of Brahman."--Atharva Veda

• For the mahAvAkyas that refer to the nature of Brahman, check this post:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=66485&postcount=23

Here is a beautiful prayer from the gItA, which is typically remembered when taking a meal. It is also recited during yajnas:

ब्रह्मार्पनं ब्रह्म हविः ब्रह्माग्नौ ब्रह्मणा हृतम् ।
ब्रह्मैव तेन गन्तव्यं ब्रह्म कर्म समाधिना ॥ ४.२४ ॥

brahmArpanaM brahma haviH brahmAgnau brahmaNA hRutam |
brahmaiva tena gantavyaM brahma karma samAdhinA || 4.24 ||

4.24: Offering is Brahman, Brahman is the oblation poured by Brahman into the fire of Brahman. Brahman will certainly be attained by one who reached the meditative equipoise in Brahman-action.

Here are the audio clips of the gIta-shloka:
http://www.sathyasai.org/devotion/prayers/brahmar.html
http://www.dhingana.com/mantras/movie/songs/hindi/bhajans/806
http://localbg.org/shlokaarchive.aspx

*****

smaranam
15 September 2011, 11:42 AM
namaste Svapnaja and others.

As the following shloka from the bhagavad gItA says, AUM, tat and sat are the three designations of Brahman.

ॐतत्सतिदि निर्देशो ब्रह्मणस्त्रिविधः स्मृतः ।
ब्रह्मणस्तेन वेदाश्च यज्ञाश्च विहिताः पुरा ॥ १७.२३ ॥

oumtatsatidi nirdesho brahmaNastrividhaH smRutaH |
brahmaNastena vedAshcha yaj~jAshcha vihitAH purA || 17.23 ||

17.23: AUM tat sat is held to be the threefold designation of Brahman. On account of that, the rituals pertaining to Brahman, the Vedas and sacrifice were ordained in ancient times.

• AUM refers to the shabda brahman, the first manifestation of Brahman as the primordial sound, which is the basis of all creation.

• tat refers to 'that'--'all that is'--denoting the Self as the single, absolute substratum of all the chetana--sentient, and achetana--insentient beings of the universe.

• sat refers to the 'absolute truth', that which is not evanescent or ephermal, which is the only underlying, universal reality.

With this prescription from shrI KRShNaparamAtma, it becomes rather easy for us to trace the earliest occurrences of these three terms in our shruti--Vedic texts.



Namaste Saidevoji

I just happened to read this, and something very simple occured to me - so i thought it is worth sharing.

What is the Gita pointing to ?

If the prescription is coming from Shri KrushNa ParamAtmA (i always like the way you refer to Him), well, if 'tat' is 'the Self as the single, absolute substratum of all chetan - achetan, shtavar-jangam, then, that is the definition of ParamAtmA.

So tat = Self = paramAtmA = Shri KrushNa ParamAtmA = a Person

'sat' = Absolute Truth.

tat == sat acc. to this axiom : aum tat sat

So Absolute Truth == 'sat' == 'tat' == Shri KrushNa PAramAtmA = the Supreme Person

Therefore, Brahman', the Absolute Truth, is primordially a Person (The Supreme Person - Shri KrushNa paramAtmA) :)

http://krishnastore.com/images/TA-025_600.jpg

Jai Shri KrushNa

praNAm _/\_

smaranam
15 September 2011, 12:51 PM
double post sorry

smaranam
15 September 2011, 12:52 PM
tat

The earliest reference of tat is perhaps the famous gAyatrI mantra:

tat savitur vareNyaM bhargo devasya dhImahi |
dhiyo yo naH prachodayAt ||--RV 3.62.10

That (tat or Brahmam) which creates and vivifies everything (savitur) is the best for worship (vareNyam). On that light (bhargo) of the divine (devasya), let us meditate on (dhImahi), because it is that which (yo) kindles and inspires (prachodayAt) our (na) intellect (dhiyo).

Oh That Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA (tat or Brahman) that creates and vivifies everything (savitur), is the best for worship (vareNyam). On that transcendence (bhargo) of the divine Devadeva, paramAtmA (devasya),
let us meditate on (dhImahi), because it is He Who (yo) kindles and inspires (prachodayAt) our (na) intellect (dhiyo)



sat

• ekaM sad viprA bahudhA vadanti----Rg-veda 1.164.46
"It is of One Existence/Reality/Truth that the wise ones speak in diverse ways..."

HE is One Existence/Reality/Truth that the wise ones speak in diverse ways... and why not ? Since His rUpa (form) is achintya (inconceivable).



There are other references to sat, satyam, but I think this quote from RV is the earliest:

satyam jnAnam anantam brahma
--taittirIya upaniShad 2.1.1
"Brahman is truth, knowledge, and infinite."

Adi ShankarAchArya composed Govindashtakam (http://stotraratna.awardspace.com/stotra/vishnu/v7.pdf) beginning with this RgVed line. He loved Govinda very dearly and acknowledged Him the Supreme Brahman.

M. S. Subalakshmi singing GovindAshtakam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMAy49Wkano)

Just find it all very interesting. As if getting into the the guhyam secret inner chambers of Adi Shankara's antahkaraN.

praNAm

Kumar_Das
26 September 2011, 05:40 AM
tatThe earliest reference of tat is perhaps the famous gAyatrI mantra:tat savitur vareNyaM bhargo devasya dhImahi | dhiyo yo naH prachodayAt ||--RV 3.62.10That (tat or Brahmam) which creates and vivifies everything (savitur) is the best for worship (vareNyam). On that light (bhargo) of the divine (devasya), let us meditate on (dhImahi), because it is that which (yo) kindles and inspires (prachodayAt) our (na) intellect (dhiyo).sat• ekaM sad viprA bahudhA vadanti----Rg-veda 1.164.46"It is of One Existence/Reality/Truth that the wise ones speak in diverse ways..."There are other references to sat, satyam, but I think this quote from RV is the earliest:satyam jnAnam anantam brahma--taittirIya upaniShad 2.1.1"Brahman is truth, knowledge, and infinite."Wow it is perfect that the earliest verses which sat and tat were mentioned were the Gayatri Mantra and verse 1.164.46.