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The Occult
30 August 2011, 06:56 AM
There has been a lot of study of ancient civilizations by scientists and lot of the buildings constructed during those times have been considered as "Engineering marvels"

A lot of questions have been raised on the technology employed during those times.Some of them have been answered but a lot of them still remain a mystery while some raises more questions.

Consider the Egyptian civilization for example, the technology used was considered so highly sophisticated that some of them speculate an influence of "Aliens" during those times .

Another example, is when a scientist by the name Oppenheimer was asked about the invention of atom bomb, he said that it was the first to be used in the modern times(which implies that according to him that it was already used some time before in the ancient times)

A lot of geographical findings raises more and more questions on the sophistication of ancient civilization

So, are we the most advanced and sophisticated civilization ever? or were there ones which were more advanced and sophisticated than us?

Eastern Mind
30 August 2011, 07:03 AM
Vannakkam The Occult: Can you please define 'sophisticated'?

Aum Namasivaya

The Occult
30 August 2011, 07:09 AM
I imply "complex or intricate, as a system, process,"

Eastern Mind
30 August 2011, 07:33 AM
Vannakkam The Occult: So then this topic has nothing at all to do with spirituality. I see the two as totally separate.

Aum Namasivaya

The Occult
30 August 2011, 08:00 AM
Vannakkam The Occult: So then this topic has nothing at all to do with spirituality. I see the two as totally separate.

Aum Namasivaya


Thats why I asked it in the Science section

Mana
30 August 2011, 08:01 AM
Namasté


There has been a lot of study of ancient civilizations by scientists and lot of the buildings constructed during those times have been considered as "Engineering marvels"

A lot of questions have been raised on the technology employed during those times.Some of them have been answered but a lot of them still remain a mystery while some raises more questions.

Consider the Egyptian civilization for example, the technology used was considered so highly sophisticated that some of them speculate an influence of "Aliens" during those times .

These Marvels are economically not viable today, thus the driving force is no longer existent, to produce similar things. This is to my mind the largest influencing factor in our assimilation of what is possible or not.


Another example, is when a scientist by the name Oppenheimer was asked about the invention of atom bomb, he said that it was the first to be used in the modern times(which implies that according to him that it was already used some time before in the ancient times)

When a meteor or comet strikes the earth, if it is large enough an atomic blast can be released which has the power of thousands of our bombs.
The last recorded event was over Russia in the Tunguska event in 1908 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event)fortunately in an unpopulated area. A meteoritic caused a nuclear explosion above the ground.

This is the current theory for the extinction of the dinosaurs.


A lot of geographical findings raises more and more questions on the sophistication of ancient civilization

Examples?


So, are we the most advanced and sophisticated civilization ever? or were there ones which were more advanced and sophisticated than us?

What does it mean to be civilized?

I am sure that there have been more peaceful civilisations in the past but they don't get recognition in historical records as more dominant people tend to wipe them out. It has been stated by many a warmonger that history is written by the winners.

You could argue that these people were more spiritually balanced.
Our understanding of reality may be doing a loop back onto its self in that science may point directly to the wisdom of ancient times in its depiction of reality today.

Were there more materially advanced peoples in the past we would find evidence of this in the geological records.


Pranam

Mana

saidevo
30 August 2011, 08:50 AM
namaste Occult.

These two books might of interest to you:
The Solar System by Arthur E.Powell (for ancient civilizations)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16619974/A-E-Powell-The-Solar-System

An Encyclopaedia of Hindu Architecture by P.K.AchArya
http://www.archive.org/download/encyclopaediaofh07achauoft/encyclopaediaofh07achauoft.pdf

sanjaya
30 August 2011, 09:46 AM
If you're asking whether I think that ancient Indians were ahead of their time in terms of mathematics, astronomy, and philosophy, I'd certainly say yes. But were they ahead of our time in any of these fields? Of course not! If they were more advanced in terms of scientific and technical knowledge, we'd have some hard evidence of this. So far I'm not aware of any groundbreaking findings...

Mana
30 August 2011, 10:05 AM
I tend towards the belief, that the simplicity of a less complicated life; will have once meant that certain aspects of the workings of civilisation were much more apparent.

That we have diverged from a simpler, much easier understanding of the very same things that today we strive to understand.

It is interesting to note that knowledge is lost and then found again. Within the rise and fall of civilisations.

Eastern Mind
30 August 2011, 12:23 PM
Thats why I asked it in the Science section

Vannakkam: Oops ... I didn't notice that. Sorry.

Aum Namasivaya

Mana
31 August 2011, 11:01 AM
Namasté All

Here is a fine example of science catching up; this really made me smile. I do think Psychology and neuroscience are far behind, but they are catching up. (http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110830/full/news.2011.510.html?WT.mc_id=FBK_NPG)

Pranam

Mana

smaranam
31 August 2011, 01:13 PM
If you're asking whether I think that ancient Indians were ahead of their time in terms of mathematics, astronomy, and philosophy, I'd certainly say yes. But were they ahead of our time in any of these fields? Of course not! If they were more advanced in terms of scientific and technical knowledge, we'd have some hard evidence of this. So far I'm not aware of any groundbreaking findings...

Namaste Sanjay,

The evidence is in the scriptures. Through smruti - and the fifth veda - Mahabharat and also Bhagvatam - lots of it. Communicating with aliens as if they were next door, for instance. There is this and that shAstra (science of).
Vaimanik shastra, Ayurved, Shilpashastra, architecture etc.

Jai Shri KrushNa

sanjaya
31 August 2011, 03:13 PM
Namaste Sanjay,

The evidence is in the scriptures. Through smruti - and the fifth veda - Mahabharat and also Bhagvatam - lots of it. Communicating with aliens as if they were next door, for instance. There is this and that shAstra (science of).
Vaimanik shastra, Ayurved, Shilpashastra, architecture etc.

Jai Shri KrushNa

Hi Smaranam. I've heard of these claims; flying saucers (vimanas) in the Ramayana and whatnot. I'm sure people have identified similar things in the Mahabharata and Bhagavata.

So, a couple questions for you. First, are there a couple specific passages you have in mind in the Scriptures which discuss communication with aliens? Secondly, I've heard it said by a prominent atheist (I think Arthur C. Clarke) that any sufficiently advanced technology would seem to us like magic. But I wonder if he got that backwards. Scriptures discuss interactions between God and men, which apparently were more common in ancient India than they are now. Could it be that people today are mistaking the workings of God for advanced technology?

Adhvagat
31 August 2011, 03:19 PM
One of the biggest assumptions of modern society is that, anything that is being discovered or invented today is being done so for the first time in Human history. In other words, in spite of having the same brain for over two million years, and known history of ancient civilizations for over past 10000 years or so, we assume that only in the last 4-5 centuries did the human beings started thinking scientifically and are doing technological inventions and scientific discoveries. We assume that all our ancient ancestors were dumbs who spent time in blind faiths, unscientific practices, uncivilized activities and so on.

Read the full (interesting) article here: http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-ancient-science-modern-technology-mathematics-geometry/

Mana
01 September 2011, 03:51 AM
Namasté

Why would you assume that...

'If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one. Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.'

Is a reference to a nuclear weapon? Or even explosion?

Its taken completely out of context.

Here's another interpretation of the same sloka.

"If a thousand suns were to rise in the heavens at the same time, the blaze of their light would resemble the splendour of that supreme spirit."
BG 11.12 Eknath Easwaran

Bearing in mind that this sloka also follows...

"But these things cannot be seen with your physical eyes; therefore I give you spiritual vision to perceive my majestic power."
BG 11.8 Eknath Easwaran





Who made the first interpretation? Its very dubious indeed!

Clearly Oppenheimer, if he believed this was reference to a nuclear explosion; had completely misunderstood the entirety of chapter BG11 He had no direct experience or knowledge of this vision. This highlights, in my mind; the dangers of interpretation.

I have not researched this but I suspect that Oppenheimer is being misinterpreted here also, that he finds nuclear energy to resemble the description of the divine vision of energy. I thought with which I am much more at ease.

I would not recommend putting any belief in to any such passages; when viewed in this light. Unless one has made the interpretation ones self; qualified by the company of others with whom you can verify your interpretation as valid.

Pranam

Mana

charitra
01 September 2011, 07:48 PM
“ I have not researched this but I suspect that Oppenheimer is being misinterpreted here also, that he finds nuclear energy to resemble the description of the divine vision of energy. I thought with which I am much more at ease”

The famous quotation made by the nuclear scientist whilst waiting to witness the much anticipated explosion said so, minutes before the event, only in reverence to Gita. He, IMO, was aware that the power of destruction of that magnitude resided up until then in the hands of only Brahman, who destroys (and remakes) stars and galaxies on a regular basis. Apparently to him this tremendous power falling into the hands of mortals was very worrisome; to me he sounded he was apologetic reciting the sloka. After all, he was instrumental in delivering this power to humans and hence the apology and concern :) ..Namaste.

Mana
02 September 2011, 03:35 AM
Namasté

Now that I've got to thinking about this: In comparison, nuclear fission; which occurs in a nuclear bomb, does not resemble this description of energy in this passage; It is the exact opposite. Adharma in the extreme.

Resembling this passage would be the supernova or even the greater the hyper nova. This is the death of a star at the end of its cycle of nuclear fusion (not to be confused with fission) now this is Dharma in the extreme.

All the atoms in this universe; as we understand it today, are created by nuclear fusion. The process which fuels our very own star; it happily joins hydrogen atoms to become helium all day long so that we may feel its warmth; The very opposite of the nuclear bomb. The heavier elements need the super nova for their creation.

Pranam

Mana

Mana
02 September 2011, 03:46 AM
The mass of all elements are arguably created by time; as the two are inextricably connected.

E=mc² shows us this indirectly the relation with time being "c" the speed of light.

As relative velocity, otherwise said, speed; increases; so does mass; time slows down.

Now is Kala time or death?

Death becomes only the ego.

Pranam.

Mana

smaranam
05 September 2011, 03:52 PM
Hi Smaranam. I've heard of these claims; flying saucers (vimanas) in the Ramayana and whatnot. I'm sure people have identified similar things in the Mahabharata and Bhagavata.

So, a couple questions for you. First, are there a couple specific passages you have in mind in the Scriptures which discuss communication with aliens? Secondly, I've heard it said by a prominent atheist (I think Arthur C. Clarke) that any sufficiently advanced technology would seem to us like magic. But I wonder if he got that backwards. Scriptures discuss interactions between God and men, which apparently were more common in ancient India than they are now. Could it be that people today are mistaking the workings of God for advanced technology?

Hi Sanjaya

I was not thinking of VishwarUp Darshan Yog (BG Chap 11) , but some episodes described in BhAgvat, RamayaN and MahAbhArat - see this post for instance:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=70265&postcount=24

Jai Shri KrushNa

smaranam
05 September 2011, 04:41 PM
P.S.: Sanjaya, you are right, some modern scientists and archeologists THINK that the devas were merely extra terrestrials, and confuse that with Bhagvan Shri KrushNa as well ! They are wrong of course, while the part about DAnavs misusing advanced technology is valid. Like MAyA dAnav - the dAnav architect supplying missiles and technology for ruining peace of good people and devas.

The dangerous misinterpretations would be thinking that advanced technology and science would explain off Parmeshwar's Leela. Of course, that would be mistaking Purusha for advanced prakruti - no matter how advanced it gets, it is still hitting the wall if one tries to equate that with the Adi Purush

Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi ~

Mana
06 September 2011, 04:15 AM
Namasté smaranam

Interesting derivation regarding Air, which has so many different translations, not surprising given the importance of sound vibration.

Could these passages which speek of "airships" be translated in a different light? A battle between two peoples. one with speech one with out? Speech and words, there effects on karma; must have been quite startling to one who has never seen such telepathic organisation.

Is Saubha pronounced in a similar fashion to śabda?

Word has power, light, noise; to the uninitiated it must be quite startling. The unifying concious leap would be enormous.

Just musing; I must read more. Thank you for the pointer smaranam.

Pranam

Mana

smaranam
06 September 2011, 12:11 PM
Namaste Mana

'Saubha' would be pronounced as s (as in sound, not sh), 'u' as in undo, U as in boot and bha.

s a oo bha.

___________

I think, we need not focus only on technology, there is the math with advanced theorems and concepts, Vedic astronomy and astrology, genetic science and engineering, architecture science and so many advanced sciences, not to mention the knowledge of adhyAtma, Universe creation, ecology and accurate knowledge of 84 crore species coming straight from Parameshwar, BhagvAn.

The difference is, "they" (our ancients) were more advanced because they had faith in and Love for BhagvAn, and BhagvAn supplied them with knowledge. VyAsdev is in fact the literary incarnation of BhagvAn VishNu.
Today's research only gets silent help from ParamAtmA within the scientist's heart, if they are open to that grace. However, many of them think they are the doers. THAT is the difference.

The Shalva story and similar episodes are dissected all over the internet by well meaning people, comparing them to UFOs and virtual reality but sometimes they confuse hi-tech prakruti for Purusha. THAT is dangerous. Some of those web pages think BhagvAn Shri VishNu's Sudarshan chakra is some high tech weapon ! See what i mean by confusing Purusha and prakruti ?

That is what Sanjay is pointing at, although what stares us in the face is all the ancient advanced sciences in the fields listed above.

Further, how can we be more advanced in philosophy than the ancients ? We would be nowhere in adhyAtma and tattvadnyAn had it not been for Vedic shruti and smruti.

What about genetic engineering ? Are Draupadi and the 100 kauravs examples of genetic engineering ? Or are they examples of daivi prabhA and Yog only ? I do not know and speculation is not my area. I am out of this thread.

praNAm

Mana
06 September 2011, 12:37 PM
Thank you smaranam,

adhyAtma is my word of the day! I must look at the derivation and roots.

I would say that we have been genetic engineering since the day we stopped roaming and settled; domesticating both plants and animals, neither the plants nor the animals have been the same ever since.

I hear what you are saying about confusion over prakRti and puruSa; is this not the very nature of knowledge that is adhyAtma?

Pranam

Mana

smaranam
06 September 2011, 01:39 PM
I hear what you are saying about confusion over prakRti and puruSa; is this not the very nature of knowledge that is adhyAtma?

Pranam

Mana


Good point, Mana. I think you have made several good points on this thread.

praNAm