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Shivasati
02 September 2011, 12:32 PM
Hello to everyone.

Im new to the forum. I need some learned answers.......Ive had a c-section 1yr ago, and its the 2nd one. I recently got pregnant (a mishap of 4wks) and the doctor said that to go thru with this will be risking my life. I do not believe in taking a life, but from some of the posts I've read, there's a conflict of when the soul enters an unborn. Ive heard at the 4th month, at conception and at birth. I am married with 3 kids to take care of, and I cannot take from them a mother, for an unborn child that may take 2 lives. I have done the D&C proceedure, but with a hurting heart. I guess what I'm looking for is words of comfort.......and knowledge from our scriptures. I know there's a price to pay, I accept that.

Does anyone who is learned in our scriptures identify when the soul enters the unborn/born as the case might be.

Thank you

NayaSurya
02 September 2011, 03:29 PM
I am not very good at retrieving what I have read from where so I can not bring the words to ease your request from scripture. But I can reply with the comfort portion of your request... as a mother of 8 with a stillborn(Would have been #9) and a D&C forced miscarriage as the baby was dead (Would have been #10).

Now, you are a mother of three and can truly answer this question for yourself. The quickening is known by mothers of every culture and religion...and it's the time when a baby vessel finally has a host.

But, even this is not the true core of this. Because what you come for is some peace of mind and heart?

ShivaSati, you did the right thing.

Dear, dear, dear one...do not dwell upon this...please.

We do what we can, be confident in Beloved and the machine which works this realm...if the child is to be born...it will come. Of this I have no doubt.

After my child was still born I blame myself for my stressful time in college and caring for terminal patients at night...on top of having four children which I volunteered at school...and did parties and field trips. I was making every meal..helping with every bit of school homework and maintaining all household duties while doing all of this.

But, things happen here for a reason I am so so truly confident of that fact. So, I have left this guilt and blame behind as best I can...sometimes in the wee hours I will dwell on it...but immediately the Truth comes in and stops this silly mothers revisit of the past.

Because the Truth is, I could not stop that fate..anymore than you could.

It's sad that you will not be able to share this lil life and help it grow...that it will have others to do this. But, be at peace for your heart breaking decision...that as surely as the sun will rise...this child will come if it has business yet to do here.

Let this moment fall away, you have done everything you can...Beloved would not expect you to suffer anymore than you already have.<3

Big gigantic hugs for you today and always...Beloved Mother<3

Eastern Mind
02 September 2011, 04:05 PM
ShivaSati, you did the right thing.



Vannakkam Shivasati: I echo Nayasurya's words. Here's what my scripture says on it. http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/lws/lws_ch-33.html

If you scroll to 228, you'll find the exception you spoke of.

My wife (and I ) are the parents of 5, and she had one miscarriage there somewhere in the middle.

Best wishes on it all.

Aum Namasivaya

sunyata07
03 September 2011, 03:10 PM
Namaste Shivasati,

Please take comfort in Nayasurya's words, from one mother to another. I have not yet brought children into this world, but I hope I can begin to understand how painful it must be to go through miscarriage. Such a difficult and harrowing time for anyone, and a time I think when the black feelings of self-blame and guilt are most likely to manifest themselves in the expecting mother.

I'm almost totally ignorant of the scriptures to be of help. Really, who am I to speak when I have no history myself of any of this? But I will offer you my opinion in the hope it may be of comfort to you, inexperienced though I am in these matters. Whenever I am faced with the notion of birth and death, and especially when these two are so closely tied (in such cases as a still-birth or miscarriage), I call to mind what Krishna told Arjuna when he quailed at the thought of death: "Death is inevitable for the living; birth is inevitable for the dead. Since these are unavoidable, you should not sorrow." (B.G: 2.27). Like Naya says, I have no doubt that the jiva will find another host to take birth. To dwell on this and worry you are somehow to blame is only to cause needless suffering for yourself with an event you are not in control of.

I do you wish the best on this. Please take care and take solace and healing from Naya's words. EM has also provided a link whose views I'm sure many Hindus would agree with.

Om namah Shivaya

charitra
03 September 2011, 11:18 PM
I wouldn’t worry about that shivasati. No need to feel guilty.
Brahman made a tamper proof perfect system for the transcendence of atma. A few years ago I heard a swami saying that atma acquires a body AFTER the birth of the baby, his reason was that, “ two atmas cannot live in one body (of mother) can they, if that happens then whose karma the new atma will start accumulating , the mother’s? Well, it is unfair right? ”. Most abortions are spontaneous in nature as opposed to induced ones, mostly from failure of fetal development, genetic malformation, intrauterine death etc. That means if an atma is already there in the (naturally)aborted fetus then a lot of reassigning of those atmas needs to go on and on, and that’s a lot reworking and largely an unnecessary exercise for creation.
Three kids are quite handful and lets all understand world’s population is on the cusp of hitting 7 billion mark. For such of those who want ‘many’ kids there are too many kids out there available and looking for homes.
Abortion card is overplayed by some politicians in USA. If every accidental pregnancy translates into a birth, then there will be a billion more beggars around. Not to mention unwanted pregnancy was one of the commonest causes of child abuse and murder by mother and father. Please take permanent method of sterilization to preclude any further pregnancies. Majority of hindus have stopped with 2 kids these past couple of decades, just look around .

Ganeshprasad
04 September 2011, 06:50 AM
Pranam Sivasati

While I can sympathize with the predicament you are placed and therefore make a decision based on that situation. I must say Naya as always given wise words.

It is heart breaking decision to make, these are all our Karmas as well as of the unborn child.

what I worry, is, our replies has been based on your predicament and there fore the reply can be clouded with this sympathy, to the extent that abortion in general is spoken with callous attitude.

You asked what does scripture say at what point the soul enters the body, my understanding is life begins at conception, no Body can function without the presence of Atma in it. I say this with conviction, we talk about 16 sanskars the first one is Garbh Sanskar. Garbh means womb, altogether three sanskars are performed before the child is born, so it is clear from this that the soul is present in the womb.
some examples from Mahabharat, Abhimanyu while in the womb learnt the art of war while Krishna is speaking to sister Subhdra.
In Bhagvat Puran Naradji instructs Prahlad Maharaj. Sukhdev Goswami Was fully realised while in the womb and did not want to come out.

Jai Shree Krishna

Shivasati
06 September 2011, 01:16 AM
Thank you

Thank you all.

NayaSurya, thanks for sharing your personal experience.....I don't know how you do it!

Eastern Mind, I have bookmarked the site.......it has given insight to other questions I've had.

Hinduism accepts life the way it is, even its flaws and frailties. It teaches us the right path but knows we may not always follow that path and thus gives the remedies to correct whatever bothers us at every stage of the great journey to moksha, liberation from rebirth.

Out of everything I've read, this above has stuck in my head, and it has reminded me of just how beautiful (for want of a better word) Hinduism really is.

Thank you all,
Shivasati