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Eastern Mind
03 September 2011, 07:10 PM
Vannakkam: As Yajvanji eloquently reminds us occasionally: "We are polite people." We are also humble people. Its a human quality that is revered in Sanatana Dharma, and I would say much less in Abrahamic faiths, but I'm not sure of that, as i know so very little of those faiths.

I can share some examples of humble people I have been honored to meet. The first was some 25 years back. He was a professional Sanskritologist, guest lecturing in my home town. I had the opportunity to meet him, and interview him for a religious journal. The study of Sanskrit was the guy's profession. When we met, what struck me more than anything else was the humble demeanour he carried. This was a long time ago, and I wasn't exactly mellowed out from years of bhakti yet. So he asked me to chant for him, and he commented, "pretty good". He should have been chanting for me, but he wouldn't when I requested. He served me tea, and his wife and mine had a chat. Later I took my written interview back to him for his approval as I didn't want to misquote him. Naturally, he just approved it.

Another was a fellow I've known for some 20 years as well. He passed away just recently. I did know he held a doctorate in something, and he was an instructor. Only at the eulogy did I learn that he was one of Canada's leading researchers in Canola and its many uses. But never did he tell you that. Instead it was sincere, "How are yous?" and the like.

Many other examples include the priests I know. Its a skill, a tremendous skill. At Ganesha Chaturthi, I had the honour to observe up close. Truly amazing what these guys know. Then the contrast outside of that role is when things get humble. I was asked to give one of our priests a ride the other day. it was so very 'if you have the time only' and so polite. You'd really thing it was two different people. You see the priest out wandering around shopping just like some ordinary guy, and then you watch him do the rituals necessary to make Ganesha dance with energy. I'm just so amazed every time.

So how do we cultivate this beautiful soul-like quality in ourselves?

Aum Namasivaya

NayaSurya
03 September 2011, 11:34 PM
I remember reading somewhere that there are several layers of existence. The lowest one, being very hellish because the ones there do not know they do not know.

Sounds like hell to me.:p

Then the place above that is a place where I suppose you would know you do not know? Not much better, but it's a start I suppose.:p

So I am up packing tonight for weekend of pool games, camping under the stars and ghost stories...and the thing that makes me feel so humble most days is my own children. Being a parent can nuture some deep humility.

Because no matter how much you think you know....you come to realize that you don't know anything!

Every child different, every situation, fluid.

Nothing stays the same...nothing...well save our Love.

Just the other night, upon a grassy hill...I watched my son play tight end on his jr. varsity team...and I cheered for him as I crochet some baby hats. But, I cheered for all the lil children upon the field, so proud that they played very good with kindness for each other. This made half the grouping of parents turn to face me, wondering why I supported both teams.

I told you I am such a fool!

Very common for me to cheer on everyone.:p

It's okay to talk about our good things, but I think even a greater reward comes from being totally honest and also mentioning the ridiculous things we do every day. Because in these vessels...it's very easy to find yourself being ridiculous...especially when you are a parent!

When I was pregnant with my first child I remember going to another family member's home which was riddled with toys and children's things...and I was horrified at the untidy state of her home.

I said something VERY ridiculous...I said.."Geeze when I have children I will never let my home look like a day care nursery!"

8 kids later and LOL most of my adult life my home was in such a state...I found very wonderful joy playing with them too!

Being a parent deeply humbles a portion.:p

Eastern Mind
04 September 2011, 06:30 AM
So I am up packing tonight for weekend of pool games, :p

Vannakkam: You mean 'pool' as in balls on a table being poked at with long sticks? If so, then I'm in. Nostalgia takes over as I remember my second home in adolescence, that most 'wonderful' time. :)

On the humility question: Humility is a strange thing. The minute you think you have got it, you have lost it.
-- Swami Chinmayananda (1916-1993), founder of the Chinmaya Mission


Aum Namasivaya

Mana
04 September 2011, 07:38 AM
Namasté Eastern Mind,

Thank you for your thoughts and for the wonderful quotation above.

In many ways I find humility to be entwined with truth, to be honest with ones self is terrifyingly difficult; truly humiliating.


Pranam

Mana

NayaSurya
04 September 2011, 07:41 AM
lol we have a similar past! Being on or near a military base all of my life...the game of pool is something I picked up as a little child. But, I am rusty so I doubt I would be able to play now. Thinking back, I never was bold enough to ever even call my pocket.

As for the actual pool, this is the last weekend of the pool here and so I have been urged by all to take them...despite yesterday being over 101 here. I am longing for the orange leaves and pumpkin patch.

Humility sounds like almost everything in life when you put it this way...

Just when you think you figured it all out, you figure out you have absolutely no understanding of anything at all. :p

Eastern Mind
04 September 2011, 07:51 AM
Vannakkam: The two (pool and humility) are related. I played snooker. Back then there was none of this small table big pocket stuff. (Now in my city there isn't a single public snooker table available ... at least that I could find.) It was so incredibly difficult that each shot was a humiliation, if you managed to hit the object ball at all. ("Black in the corner pocket!" .... "Oops, I meant to say green.") In adolescence, one is overcome with all that swagger and pride, false bravado that it was. So playing a game of snooker fixed you, at least momentarily.:)

I'm very rusty too. but mostly it's the eyes. I can hardly see the other end. My old friend Pool Hall Mike had the saying, "That's a lot of grass." Now I really understand why he had to stop playing we kid punks.

Aum Namasivaya

sunyata07
04 September 2011, 08:23 AM
On the humility question: Humility is a strange thing. The minute you think you have got it, you have lost it.
-- Swami Chinmayananda (1916-1993), founder of the Chinmaya Mission


Namaste,

How wonderfully precise this observation is. The very nature of humility seems paradoxical, no? I can never be humble; the moment I acknowledge myself as having this quality, it is already gone. To an extent, this is true of others, but certainly for oneself it is true. It's almost as if true humility is destroyed in the very presence of recognition. Perhaps this is why it is so difficult a virtue to cultivate, because one can never really keep track of it - there is absolutely no room for ego and humility to coexist together.

There is I think a small difference between mundane humility and spiritual humility. The kind of humility EM is speaking about is more than likely the latter. It is true humility, and already encompasses mundane humility. In the world of everyday affairs, to be of the quiet and undemanding type of personality - where you just "get on with your job" - is to considered humble by a lot of people. This what I mean by mundane humility. It's a surface kind of humility, in which one can readily acknowledge "I am humble", but of course, looking closer, there is still much more work to be done.


In many ways I find humility to be entwined with truth, to be honest with ones self is terrifyingly difficult; truly humiliating.


Mana, I think this point you make is excellent. To be humble is to simply accept what is, and to accept yourself as you are entirely. True humility isn't adversarial, nor can I force myself to be humble. This is falling short of the real humility that we see in truly great souls who work, talk and do everything seemingly without any trace of ego. It seems to be a virtue that is continually overlooked in the West, because it is always mistaken for a lack of self-esteem, or self-deprecation or thinking "I am not good enough; I am worthless and small, and accordingly know my place."

Om namah Shivaya

NayaSurya
04 September 2011, 08:42 AM
So very true Suny<3

I hear this very much here in my home. "Why do you speak of yourself this way?"

What does it matter what I say..if it is honest?

So this fool was planning already packed...an entire camp set waiting in the living room to take to the car this morning...and has anyone looked at the weather map for the u.s.? ugh!:p

Now, somehow I have to let down a house of children who have been up since 5 a.m. with me. I have decided to go the "now we get two weekends of fun instead of one." slant.:p

So pool in the rain today...as it is the last weekend and camping next weekend.

You know, I don't think it's a big issue to not worry or think about what we are or aren't as long as we are true to ourself and our dependants.

I have never sat down one day and worried if I was humble or if I was flashy. For me it is a work in progress...so there is a constant reworking of this self. Like scissors snipping away at dead ends of the hair....or trimming a finger nail. So you one time thought that your car was better than your neighbor? Okay...so snip it away....keep that car for 10 years and allow others to look at it and snicker....and keep it yet another year just to go beyond your previous set time....just because it no longer matters what it looks like as long as it is drivable?

So you are wrong about the weather and a torrential wet down the likes of a hurricane is coming your way....admit it's not going to work and plan not only one weekend but two to make it up...and if that isn't enough...plan a third.

Admit you are wrong, make mistakes and move on!

Humble is a lot like pretty. No matter how many times you stand in the mirror and try to convince yourself you are....it won't matter unless someone comes along to validate what you are thinking is true.

and even then...what do you gain?

I suppose raising six boys makes me a bit rigid when it comes to ego. I have to be sure about things...and if I am not...admit that and try to get the answer they need. Anything less and the children would see me as weak, prideful, not dependable or honest and just plain dumb. To have such checks and balances in your life, even if it is harsh at times...is a blessing.

Being sure 100% is ego perhaps, I am unsure.:p But being able to admit when you don't have the full answer helps keep that in balance...at least I think...maybe not...I am unsure.:p

yajvan
04 September 2011, 09:42 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namastщ


Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but rather thinking of yourself less and less till there is no more.


There is one way to become fully humble - become the vinaya, the one with subdued senses e.g. possessed of the Self.



praṇām

yajvan
03 November 2011, 03:23 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namast&#233;





Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but rather thinking of yourself less and less till there is no more.


There is one way to become fully humble - become the vinaya, the one with subdued senses e.g. possessed of the Self.

This humility (nīca in jyotish) becomes a very noble quality as one progresses. It begins to overshadow pride.

mada मद - used in the feminine gender is considered pride, arrogance , presumption , conceit . It is also a name for intoxication. The intoxication of one's self ( small 's') that is filled with 'me', only me.

Sometimes the word māna is is used for this notion of pride as it too is defined as self-conceit , arrogance , pride.


It seems to me this pride ( self-centeredness) is a key driver of individuality. Humility is a driver of being universal. Yet in some cultures pride is promoted.
I think stewardship would be a capable alternative to this pride. Pride brings excessive ownership of things; when these things are lost one tries to re-gain what was lost to feel whole again. Hence this pride promotes the notion that one is not whole without other things contributing to one's well being.


If one is working-on or unfolding humility it is my assessment that cultivating stewardship is not a hindrance. What is this stewardship ? The responsible management of something entrusted to one's care.


Let me offer an example : Let's say I am a gardener and take care of another's land. I go there and keep it orderly, remove the weeds, fertilize, and insure a healthy garden. Yet there is no possessiveness. I leave at the end of the day knowing I did my allotted duty but have no worries if a rabbit may eat the garden. I am not possessed by it, I am not the owner.


Another example is with childcare. One goes and tends to the children, gives them affection, are fed, managed, etc. yet at the end of the day the children are returned to their parents. The childcare giver has done his/her work and the responsibility is passed back to the parents. The childcare giver then goes about her business with little thought of the children.


So it seems humility + stewardship are good partners. Pride + personally-driven ownership seems to bring excessive attachment and only dis-heartened grief of loss.


Ultimate humility is the notion of only one but not in the mindset of the individual but of the universal;
Ultimate pride is the notion of the many and total unconnectedness that only thinks of one at a time; that every
man, woman and child are on their own to posssess as much as possible to fuel one's pride.

praṇām

smaranam
29 November 2014, 10:11 PM
Namaste

Humility is lack of ownership and lack of doership.

If I am not the owner, doer, facilitator of anything at all, and KanhaiyA is facilitating His PrakRutI that is doing it all, then that sets me free.



If nothing is mine, everything belongs to BhagavAn, the Supreme Lord, there is no need for others to unnecessarily misread a sense of greatness or un-humbleness or pride or whatever, in my thoughts, actions and words.

If I am matter-of-fact, I am not afraid to think, say or act because others will think I am proud. Why? Because there is absolutely nothing I do, own, establish or create! If I am not a thief, there is no need for me to think others may think I am one!

This last point is what relates well to the point made by Yajvanji -- "Humility is thinking of yourself less and less, not thinking less of yourself" So very true. Even calculating a thought "I am supposed to be humble" is focusing on your ego-self.

smaranam
29 November 2014, 10:47 PM
Moving on to a simpler plane, other points on this thread -- such as "parenting makes one humble" are also useful and quite true. It certainly can help break the ice of ignorance at some level. This is OK when the chintAmaNi gems of adhyAtma (spiritual science) are not yet applied.

This is why it is more foolproof and scientific to say -- lack of ownership and lack of doership means humility.

So all one has to do is get rid of
ahaMkAr -- false identification, ego
mamatA/mamatva -- mine, my,
bhogtRtva -- enjoyment with a sense of possession
and kartutva --- doership "I did this"


Lord KRshNa says in the Bhagavad GeetA 15.5:

nirmAna moha jita-sanga-doshA
adhyAtma nityA vinirvRttakAmA
dvandvair-vimuktAh: sukha-dukkha sauMdnyairgachhantyamUDAh:
padam avyayam tat ||

Whose pride, desire for honour, and hankering or affection for mundane things have died,
Those who have conquered (overcome) worldly attachments to the ego,
Those who are always situated in the AtmA (adhyAtma-nitya), and not in the false ID - ego,
Those who have lost all worldly desires [beyond basic needs]
Those beings, having knowledge of the AtmA, having crossed beyond the duality of happiness and sorrow, reach that eternal non-perishable place (padam avyayam tat).

Jaskaran Singh
30 November 2014, 01:00 AM
Namaste

Humility is lack of ownership and lack of doership.

If I am not the owner, doer, facilitator of anything at all, and KanhaiyA is facilitating His PrakRutI that is doing it all, then that sets me free.

Pranam,
In a sense, bhagavan himself is an excellent model of humility. He is the lord of all jivas in the universe, yet he acts as the charioteer of arjuna (hence parthasarathi), washes the feet of sudama, and even danced with the gopis, something which he doesn't do even with shridevi:

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рд░рд╛рд╕реЛрддреНрд╕рд╡реЗрд╜рд╕реНрдпрднреБрдЬрджрдгреНрдбрдЧреГрд╣реАрдд рдХрдгреНрдард▓рдмреНрдзрд╛рд╢рд┐рд╖рд╛рдВрдпреБрджрдЧрд╛рджреНрд╡реНрд░рдЬ рд╡рд▓реНрд▓рднреАрдирд╛рдореН

If he can treat his bhaktas in such a manner, then we can surely act in the seva of other beings, even those which may seem insignificant, like insects.

smaranam
30 November 2014, 07:23 AM
Pranam,
In a sense, bhagavan himself is an excellent model of humility. He is the lord of all jivas in the universe, yet he acts as the charioteer of arjuna (hence parthasarathi), washes the feet of sudama, and even danced with the gopis, something which he doesn't do even with shridevi:

नायंश्रियोऽङ्गुनितान्तरतेः प्रसादः स्वर्योषितांनलिनगन्धरुचां कुतोऽन्याः
रासोत्सवेऽस्यभुजदण्डगृहीत कण्ठलब्धाशिषांयुदगाद्व्रज वल्लभीनाम्

If he can treat his bhaktas in such a manner, then we can surely act in the seva of other beings, even those which may seem insignificant, like insects.

Namaste,

Yes, indeed. You have cited some good examples of that, can you please give reference of that shloka?
My first 'reaction' was that the truly Humble is BhagavAn Himself --- but for some reason I did not write that in the post. When the Lord acts to teach us and set an example He does so in the most complete and highest way.
Shri KRshNa -- in a "poem" about Him I wrote He is the Humblest and Kindest.


Jai Shree Krshna Govind Mukund Murari !!

smaranam
30 November 2014, 07:29 AM
And this is why when KRshNa say aham this and aham that in the GeetA, it is not coming from some ego, because He doesn't have doership. He is alipta, and never entangled in doership. He says I am akartA - non-doer, and it is prakRtI that does things under My jurisdiction, but this He is saying as a matter-of-fact.

markandeya 108 dasa
30 November 2014, 11:37 AM
Pranams,


"Humility means one does not impose his conceptions upon others and he is fully dependent on the mercy of the Lord."
-Srila Bhakti Swarup Damodar Maharaj


The subject and practice of humility is certainly of really great importance. I can really take great inspiration from my own Guru H.H Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, who was a deeply humble person and loved by almost all who met Him, if they were devotee or not they still could feel his natural humility.

I was lucky to have a fair bit of association with Him, and in a simple manner He would often say that Knowledge would never be perfected until one has humility. Maharaja would not only speak about humility in parts but he demonstrated it in His daily life and practice, for me and many others He was a living example of this fine and essential quality. One thing humility is not and that is weak, it is the greatest strength the key to full union.

If He left any instruction within me then it would be three things to attain perfection in Sadhana, life and realization, and that is Meditation ( contemplative reflection, among other things ), Synthesis and Humility.

In Gaudia Vaishnavasim Sri Chaitanya Maha Prabhu left only 8 verse by his own hand and one that is a nice recitation and contemplation
trnad api su-nicena taror iva sahisnuna amanina mana-dena kirtaniyah sada harih
["One who thinks himself lower than the grass, who is more tolerant than a tree, and who does not expect personal honor yet is always prepared to give all respect to others can very easily always chant the holy name of the Lord." (Adi-lila 17.31)]


The state of Saranagati is apparently before true Bhakti arises in the heart. Sadly this is very often used in the wrong way.


I have been reflecting on humility and one of my considerations is the divine state of humility is where one realizes how great one is, but that greatness is a state of awareness of all the things that it is witness to, the sheer scope of full God consciousness is so mighty that one can only feel humility, joy, mysticism and Bhakti and at same time be in pure a state of wonder amazement and love. Humility is not just about feeling lowly and having low esteem as is practiced in some schools, sometimes I wonder why there is that fear to teach the divine aspect of being. I think Avadhuta Gita is a master piece. But we always need to keep our feet on the ground and always be on guard of the kleśa in our samskaras or else our divinity is ruined, we are born to be divine, it is our birth right, the divine realm is ever invitiing us, time to stop wasting time in the trivia of material identification.

Ys

Md

Amrut
02 December 2014, 01:10 AM
Namaste,

As the surrender to God increases, the doer-ship, 'I' and 'mine' decreases, humility is cultivated naturally as to do not take credit for anything but dedicate everything to God. Renunciation also helps one to become humble.

Neutral mind is a strong mind, it is humble too if one believes in God :)

OM