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shian
26 September 2011, 05:41 AM
Mariology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology

sm78
26 September 2011, 07:58 AM
Mariology

Dangerous territory, stay away for your own good.

sanjaya
26 September 2011, 09:48 PM
Heh, yeah. Catholics worship Mary, Protestants hate it. What's more to say?

shian
27 September 2011, 12:31 AM
hahaha just for knowledge :)

Jainarayan
27 September 2011, 10:27 AM
Namaste sanjaya.


Heh, yeah. Catholics worship Mary, Protestants hate it. What's more to say?

Not to split hairs, but Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, and Anglicans (I think the Anglicans too, 99% sure), only venerate and revere her, above all saints but below God. She isn't viewed on the same level as God, nor worshipped in addition to or in place of God. But she is prayed to, to intercede with God for mortals. At any rate, it is indeed a bone of contention between RC v. Protestants.

Sahasranama
27 September 2011, 12:27 PM
http://drinks.gulpon.com/Content/Images/FbDrinkApp/drinks/virgin-mary.jpg

Jainarayan
27 September 2011, 12:31 PM
What's this garbage!? I don't see a bottle of Tabasco sauce. :D

sunyata07
27 September 2011, 12:50 PM
Namaste,

TBTL, you make an accurate statement, but from what I've always seen of Catholics, the majority of them don't appear to differentiate between worship of God and Madonna. The primary and secondary schools I attended had a host of prayers which were to be recited before the beginning of class or assembly, most of them addressed almost exclusively to the Virgin Mary. I hardly think most people who pray at the shrines care to tell (or are even able if asked on the spot) the difference between the levels of reverence, come to think of it.

Still, it's interesting to note how traces of Goddess worship (bona dea or mater dea cults in Rome and the pre-Christian religions of Europe) still pervade some Christian sects.

Om namah Shivaya

Jainarayan
27 September 2011, 01:23 PM
For sure; we know that people of all religions and beliefs deviate from "canon".

Almost all of Christianity was lifted from pagan and preceding religions: Mesopotamian, Roman, Germanic, and some probably even made its way from India and south and central Asia westward.

Not to start a tormenta de mierda (I'm sure the word censor would catch the English translation :D), several stories in Christianity seem to have been lifted from the life of Krishna, who did precede Christianity by 3,000 years.

Consider that Mary bore a god-child who was "implanted" in her womb by a divine power; Devaki bore Krishna, not by physical intimacy with Vasudeva, but by divine intervention. Both Jesus and Krishna had attempts on their lives by an envious ruler, and had to be secreted away for safety. There are some smatterings of similarities between things Jesus said and Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita. I see a definite plagiarism by Abrahamism taken from every culture to the east of Palestine 3,500 BCE onward.

No, I'm not one of those people drawing parallels to show they are the same person (so no wailing and gnashing of teeth or stoning from the audience). I firmly believe that much of Christianity, and Judaism was plagiarized from the ancient Near East. And Islam is a total rip off of Judaism and Christianity, not a continutation. Nothing about Abrahamism is original, except maybe the bloodshed and conquering. On that it has the market cornered.

shian
27 September 2011, 09:39 PM
Very interseting,

but Roman chatolic accept and adopt the idea of Mother Goddess , Queen of Heaven to spread Christianity among paganism etc, this is more easy than what Protestant do to insult pagan etc, so Roman Catholic more easy to welcomed by pagan etc. But they also make sure that this is accpted by biblle and their other scripture and tradition. Also many miracle and mind healing was happened. But all of religion still have negative side .

You can read the history about Our Lady of Guadalupe. St Juan Diego is american aborigin, they get decimation Erurope, clan decimation and Gods icon decimation etc, but how can he receive Christ (the religion of Europe) ? this is by vision of Mary. After Mary become Our Lady of Guadalupe, many aborigin is converted to chatolic.

So some Hindu also receive Christ, receive Virgin Mary, and said they are manifestation of Baghavan to help western people in different ways . This kind if do in right way, also can make some Christian accept Hindu teachings.
For example (not to care about who is Sri Sathya Sai Baba), Satyha Sai Baba concept about Jesus etc, already success to make some abrahamic religion learn Hindu. But if we rejected their Deitys, this make they will be difficult to accept Hindu teaching. I think Deitys is netral, because different people under same religion have different way to understand their God, so the concept is wrong is not in Deitys (mind can make Deitys become anythings, also mind can make srcipture become many explanation), but wrong is on the people (the way they understand Deitys).

sunyata07
28 September 2011, 04:18 PM
Consider that Mary bore a god-child who was "implanted" in her womb by a divine power; Devaki bore Krishna, not by physical intimacy with Vasudeva, but by divine intervention.


Yes, it's rather an uncanny parallel, don't you think? The same is supposedly true of the birth of Gautama Buddha. His mother, Queen Mahamaya, had a dream of a white elephant entering her right side while she was sleeping, and thus was Buddha conceived. I certainly don't see it as a coincidence. I wouldn't doubt that in this respect that the Abrahmics took certain chunks (borrowed, for lack of a better word) of spirituality and religion directly from the East.

Shian, yes I do agree that Catholics have great reverence for Mother Mary. Whether or not they'd be pressed to call her a Goddess, however, is quite another thing. And yet their epithets for Her seem to be endless: Queen of Heaven or Regina Caeli (Mata Rani as per Hindu tradition of addressing Devi), Mother of God (essentially Mother Goddess, if you think about it), Our Lady to name just a few. So maybe you're on to something. I believe on a subconscious level Catholics are engaging in worship of the Mother Goddess, but if asked explicitly to explain Mary's position in relation to God the Father, they wouldn't be able to say the same thing exactly. I realise my bhakti to the Divine Mother makes me somewhat biased here (maybe even heavily biased), but it's precisely because of the worship of Virgin Mary that I am not totally put off by Catholicism. I think it's perhaps one of the few things they've gotten right - being able to express love to God in more than just one formless form, even if they aren't totally aware of that.

Om namah Shivaya

sanjaya
29 September 2011, 10:21 AM
Namaste sanjaya.



Not to split hairs, but Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, and Anglicans (I think the Anglicans too, 99% sure), only venerate and revere her, above all saints but below God. She isn't viewed on the same level as God, nor worshipped in addition to or in place of God. But she is prayed to, to intercede with God for mortals. At any rate, it is indeed a bone of contention between RC v. Protestants.

I'm aware that on paper there is some sort of distinction. But personally I don't pray to anyone whom I don't believe can hear what I'm saying and make some sort of response. If Catholics pray to Mary, they believe that she is able to hear them. Who can hear prayers besides God? To me it makes no sense to pray to someone without considering them to be God. Not that I think there's anything wrong with this, but it does disagree with their own beliefs.

Jainarayan
29 September 2011, 10:46 AM
I'm aware that on paper there is some sort of distinction. But personally I don't pray to anyone whom I don't believe can hear what I'm saying and make some sort of response. If Catholics pray to Mary, they believe that she is able to hear them. Who can hear prayers besides God? To me it makes no sense to pray to someone without considering them to be God. Not that I think there's anything wrong with this, but it does disagree with their own beliefs.

I'm on the same page as you. I never understood why we need someone or something to intercede for us with God. To say that needing prayers sent to a saint or being other than God is to say that God doesn't hear, want to hear, or respond to us. It's saying that God needs to be prodded into hearing us. I can't buy that.

sunyata07
29 September 2011, 01:53 PM
I'm on the same page as you. I never understood why we need someone or something to intercede for us with God. To say that needing prayers sent to a saint or being other than God is to say that God doesn't hear, want to hear, or respond to us. It's saying that God needs to be prodded into hearing us. I can't buy that.

Goes without saying I agree with the both of you. The intercession thing is strange. It's like polytheism in disguise or something. Take for example the colossal number of patron saints Catholics pray to when they need something in particular (e.g. praying to St. Anthony for finding lost items, and host of other reasons). I will answer honestly that when I was Catholic I prayed to Mary a lot more than I did God. I guess I was drawn to Devi even then without realising it, but I never prayed to Madonna with the intent of asking her to bring my prayers to God like She's some sort of messenger. That's just asinine.

Om namah Shivaya

shian
29 September 2011, 11:09 PM
This is i know,

because, in bible their God have said, they must pray for each other
and they see Virgin Mary and other Saint is their religious partner
no matter that they already pass away, they in heaven also can pray for us. So they ask Virgin Mary to pray for them just like they ask their Christian friends.

But why Virgin Mary is more special ? Because Virgin Mary and other Saint have reach Heaven so , their prayer is more pure than prayer from ordinary people.

We in Hindu also found this kind of story, like when someone ask for Lord , Lord not accept his prayer, but when he ask Rishi or very dear bhakta of Lord to beg for hope, Lord give the blessing to him.

Then, when they contemplate on Saints, they also contemplate to their karma yoga , how to serve Lord

This is their point of view.
I just explain, no any other meaning

Ramakrishna
01 October 2011, 12:03 AM
Namaste all,

Indeed I agree with many of the points made on this thread. I actually know a fair bit about Catholicism since of my closest friends converted to Catholicism and practiced it quite devoutly for a few years before becoming an atheist. He told me before how many Catholics pray more to Mary than they do to God. He also said how, as TBTL pointed out, the "official" teaching of the Catholic Church is that Mary, although she is above all the other saints, is still below God and she doesn't have any actual power to answer prayers, she just petitions to God...Yet he said that many Catholics pray to Mary as though she herself can actually answer prayers.

Sunyata also makes a great point about it being a positive aspect of Catholicism that they even venerate a female figure to such high regard, whereas this is absent in most other forms of Christianity. I agree that it's a somewhat positive thing, but that's pretty much the only positive thing that Catholicism has going for women. The Catholic Church still teaches that women should be subservient to men, husbands rule over wives, and also wives have a certain "debt" that they are obligated to pay their husbands if they demand it......but yes, I agree that it is positive to see a female figure like Mary so highly revered :)

Jai Sri Ram

shian
02 October 2011, 10:53 PM
Namaste all,

Indeed I agree with many of the points made on this thread. I actually know a fair bit about Catholicism since of my closest friends converted to Catholicism and practiced it quite devoutly for a few years before becoming an atheist.

Jai Sri Ram

Then, can you tell me why your friend become atheist ?
interesting

Ramakrishna
02 October 2011, 11:39 PM
Namaste Shian,


Then, can you tell me why your friend become atheist ?
interesting

He pretty much just gradually realized that it wasn't true. Studying evolution is what really did it for him, as it led him to realize that Catholicism and Christianity in general aren't true. He also became sick and tired of the authoritarian and controlling nature of the Catholic Church and wanted more freedom and room for tolerance in his life. He was also a "traditionalist Catholic", which I don't really want to talk about on HDF, but if you look them up you will see that they are a small minority who oppose the "modernization" of Catholicism and they are extremely intolerant and bigoted. My friend said that he never really felt comfortably while he was Catholic (especially in the traditionalist sect), and he really only converted because he grew up in a Protestant family and he was never satisfied with Protestant Christianity, and certain aspects of Catholicism were initially attractive to him.

Jai Sri Ram

shian
02 October 2011, 11:53 PM
The 15 Promises Of Mary To Christian who Recite Rosary
(see, from this 15 promises , we know that Mary not only : " she doesn't have any actual power to answer prayers, she just petitions to God.")
This 15 promises is proof that Christians believe Mary more than that :)


Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify them- selves by this means.
The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.
Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.(well, if heaven is eternal, sho the high or low degree must be eternal according to merit in world, well ... their final heaven still have degree)
You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
All who recite the rosary are my son, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ
Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination. (Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan)

I not mean to rejected the rosary devotion, they can do it with sincere heart, this will good for their mind,
so here i only learn it by other way.

shian
02 October 2011, 11:58 PM
Namaste Shian,



He pretty much just gradually realized that it wasn't true. Studying evolution is what really did it for him, as it led him to realize that Catholicism and Christianity in general aren't true. He also became sick and tired of the authoritarian and controlling nature of the Catholic Church and wanted more freedom and room for tolerance in his life. He was also a "traditionalist Catholic", which I don't really want to talk about on HDF, but if you look them up you will see that they are a small minority who oppose the "modernization" of Catholicism and they are extremely intolerant and bigoted. My friend said that he never really felt comfortably while he was Catholic (especially in the traditionalist sect), and he really only converted because he grew up in a Protestant family and he was never satisfied with Protestant Christianity, and certain aspects of Catholicism were initially attractive to him.

Jai Sri Ram

Interesting of evolution of faith
But not every people who need more space will leave Catholic or another religion, we was find many people still in their religion but create a new rules of God by their own tought according to their personal experience.
For example the idea about Homosexual
The idea about polygamy
and also idea about God personality ;)

JaiMaaDurga
01 December 2011, 06:43 PM
Namaste,

This may be interesting to some... being a devotee of Maa Durga, it seemed to me that some images/statues of Mary appeared *rather* close to murtis of Devi... I would guess that, whether consciously or not, perhaps early traveling Christians perceived Maa's potency, and sought to incorporate it within their Abrahamic framework... I certainly am not so ignorant as to believe the influence went in the other direction! ;)

JaiMaaDurga
01 December 2011, 06:54 PM
One more Mary picture, which is eerily close to the more usual depiction of Mahishasura Mardini... consider also the "Saint George and the Dragon", where it would seem they simply changed Devi to be male, Her Vahana from lion to horse, the trishul changes to a lance, and Mahishasura changes to a dragon...

JAI MATA DI