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orlando
02 October 2011, 08:04 AM
Namaste.

Soon I will inscribe a karate gym.
If I practice martial arts,do I go against Ahimsa?

Regards,
Orlando.

Sahasranama
02 October 2011, 08:42 AM
Not necessarily, unless you are a Jain (because then even breathing is a form of himsa). It can be himsa if you go there to hurt people, but if it's more a form of "self-development" I wouldn't call it himsa, even though accidents happen easily.

I have practiced some martial arts for a while (kung fu, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, tai chi). I didn't like touching sweaty and sometimes smelly people, so I stopped practicing it. Often the equipment used in dojos aren't very hygienic either.

Also, most martial arts instructor make you do hundreds of stupid exercises like crunches which are bad for your spine.

charitra
02 October 2011, 10:16 AM
NO.
Malla yudham and Kushti make a strong component of hindu version of martial arts, these were never caricatured in any negative way. The hindu soldiers including their kings during their training years had to go through this practice without any exception.As a matter of fact tournaments were conducted with proud participants converging from all over the hindu lands to stake a claim to the trophies.

sm78
02 October 2011, 01:00 PM
NO.
Malla yudham and Kushti make a strong component of hindu version of martial arts, these were never caricatured in any negative way. The hindu soldiers including their kings during their training years had to go through this practice without any exception.As a matter of fact tournaments were conducted with proud participants converging from all over the hindu lands to stake a claim to the trophies.
+1 agreed.

Friend from the West
02 October 2011, 01:41 PM
Namaste,
Bahkta Orlando,
I will defer to those more learned than myself in that I posted a query similiar to this sometime ago. My conclusion with the help of HDF, meditation, prayer, and studies is that the answer depends on your intent and can depend as well on your Dharma. For me, I consider it an obligation.
Good luck to you.
Peace.
FFTW

R Gitananda
02 October 2011, 02:09 PM
Namaste

In the Mahabharat we observe that it is the job of Kshatriyas to go out and uphold Dharma in society
by force and fear of force. However even Brahmanas were often trained to defend themselves, their
family and their ashram. Since the constable will usually not be readily available the second he is
needed (and in some situations seconds can mean a lot), I think every sadhaka should learn how
to defend himself and his loved ones.

If a grave enough situation arises, even those that eschew martial arts will attempt to use their arms
and legs and/or some object to attempt a defense of themselves or others. However, an untrained
defender is far more likely to be ineffective or too effective than one which has been trained.

Ineffective defense can lead to the hospital or the morgue for oneself or loved ones. Over-effective
defense can lead to un-intentional consequences and even land the defender in jail or prison!

A skilled enough martial artist, if he decides to act, has a much greater chance to defend
himself and/or others confidently and efficiently with the appropriate amount of force - thereby
minimizing harm to innocents and inflicting the minimum damage necessary upon the assailant.

Counter-intuitively then, a well trained martial artist actually promotes less violence than
a pacifist - who only encourages greater violence by his immoral stance. Let the sattvic
people of this world be strong and skilled - that promotes ahinsa!

Hari Aum



Namaste.

Soon I will inscribe a karate gym.
If I practice martial arts,do I go against Ahimsa?

Regards,
Orlando.

Eastern Mind
02 October 2011, 07:44 PM
Namaste.

Soon I will inscribe a karate gym.
If I practice martial arts,do I go against Ahimsa?

Regards,
Orlando.

Vannakkam: If its just for exercise and potential self-defense, then I personally see no problem. But like other disciplines, if it is used incorrectly it is himsa. My daughter holds a black belt, and has never had to use it, fortunately. Still it has helped with confidence and other things in life.

Aum Namasivaya

Adhvagat
03 October 2011, 02:18 AM
Martial arts is supposed to properly channel your kundalini energy so you can lead with your inner aggressiveness in a constructive way.

Martial arts is ahimsa.

PARAM
03 October 2011, 02:39 AM
My daughter holds a black belt, and has never had to use it, fortunately. Still it has helped with confidence and other things in life.

It is great for your daughter to hold a black belt, I would like to see her performing, she is a Kshatriya in her way.

JAI MATA DI
JAI MAA KALRATRI

Spiritualseeker
03 October 2011, 08:47 AM
Namaste,

This is something I am also interested in. I have been in a situation where I had to defend my wife and I from an intruder. Unfortunately, the end result was fatal for the intruder. Since then I sometimes have thoughts that if I was really good in martial arts, perhaps I would not need a weapon that would be lethal against someone, but at the same time I need to have such a confidence that I can subdue someone while being unarmed. It is very difficult and I do not know what I should do or should not do. Till then I always carry a weapon just in case, but this may well be against ahimsa and my actions before may have violated the law of ahimsa. I think im rambling at this point, let me tend to my morning coffee.


Om Namah Shivaya

R Gitananda
03 October 2011, 05:00 PM
Namaste

Spiritualseeker, I am glad that you were able to master that situation.

You are correct that training in martial arts is an additional tool that can give you added confidence
in a variety of situations. However an intruder might still lose his life even if he threatened the wife
of a highly trained martial artist. An intrusion is not the time to engage in a fair fight; it is hard to
instantly assess the strength and skills of an intruder and failure in an encounter against one would
be a much bigger tragedy than the one which occurred. Intruders can be quite brutal and you never
know what kind of horrors an intruder will inflict. Therefore I think a person does well to act in a
way which will give his family the greatest chance of emerging unharmed.

You did your duty by protecting your wife and according to the Gita one who does his duty
with detachment and devotes the results to "the one by whom all this universe is pervaded"
has acted above karma - and attains the highest.

While fretting over your actions may create vasanas,
faith in the Gita will keep you free of any karma.

Hari Aum



Namaste,

This is something I am also interested in. I have been in a situation where I had to defend my wife and I from an intruder. Unfortunately, the end result was fatal for the intruder. Since then I sometimes have thoughts that if I was really good in martial arts, perhaps I would not need a weapon that would be lethal against someone, but at the same time I need to have such a confidence that I can subdue someone while being unarmed. It is very difficult and I do not know what I should do or should not do. Till then I always carry a weapon just in case, but this may well be against ahimsa and my actions before may have violated the law of ahimsa. I think im rambling at this point, let me tend to my morning coffee.


Om Namah Shivaya

Spiritualseeker
04 October 2011, 06:53 AM
Namaste,

Thank you R Gitananda. That is very comforting. Sometimes doubts arise concerning the situation, but this seems sufficient to just silence those thoughts. As you said the Gita will keep you free of any Karma.

Om Namah Shivaya

charitra
04 October 2011, 09:39 AM
Namaste,

Thank you R Gitananda. That is very comforting. Sometimes doubts arise concerning the situation, but this seems sufficient to just silence those thoughts. As you said the Gita will keep you free of any Karma.

Om Namah Shivaya

Before the commencement of the famous 18 day war, all thewarring kings, i.e., both Pandavas and Kauravas, have had a series of meetingsand agreed upon a rule book that explicitly described every minute detail ofwar field behavior. It was imposed on all participating soldiers and kings alike. Historically, the concept of war crimes was very vedic, introduced some millennia ago. In fact, the UN must take a leaf from Mahabharata sangraam (war)and include it in its UN charter of war crimes. The humane nature of war itself can make a book chapter for some researchers (Bryon Morrison are you there?). Kurukshetra was extolled by one and all for the just conduct of warring soldiers on the battlefield; dharma yuddha or just war it remained throughout and more importantly interesting debates on the hows and whys of the breached rules (on rare occasions) that took place makes an engrossing reading for all. I don’t have any weblink on this exclusive topic, so any help would be appreciated.

There is an EXCEPTION though, as in all Hinduism in so for as ones responsibility of upholding dharma is concerned, should the opponent remain adharmic to such a large degree that reciprocation of dharmic response COMPROMISESTHE VERY DHARMA ITSELF, then in this rare case it is fine to get down to business and adopt a ‘free for all’ attitude. In such demonic environment one has to fight with one objective: ‘win at any cost’. Recently in Massachusetts 2 such ‘intruders’ entered a loving home of family of four and killed the mother and her two daughters in a horrific manner. Ahimsa and dharma are relevant here in proactive elimination of evil. An intruder has entered unannounced without declaring the objectives of the entry. Had the guy stabbed you or your loved one, you would be blamed for inaction. I would do the same what you did, for he wasn’t fighting a just war to begin with!!

yajvan
05 October 2011, 11:47 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

The humane nature of war itself

Yes, yet what did occur in the war on the field of kurukṣhetra called out in the mahābhārata? What were the actions done by bhīma and striking his opponent durodhona ?

Is there a lesson being offered? What are your thoughts ?

praṇām

charitra
05 October 2011, 09:33 PM
Need elaboration on question.
Depends. Is it before, during or after the JalaStambana Act of Duryodhana.
At what point in time the Bhima Sena's action was alleged as transgression? Lets see, is it his insulting utterances to provoke the ManaDhana Duryodhana making him surface from bottom of the lake where he was hiding, or is it the fight that ensued without much exchanging of any words. Namaste.

hariḥ oṁ. Namaste.
~~~~~~

namasté


Yes, yet what did occur in the war on the field of kurukṣhetra called out in the mahābhārata? What were the actions done by bhīma and striking his opponent durodhona ?

Is there a lesson being offered? What are your thoughts ?

praṇām

yajvan
05 October 2011, 10:15 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Need elaboration on question.

Bhīma could not defeat duryodhana in the final battle till he was asked by kṛṣṇa-ji to hit him on his thighs; this is a foul ( against the rules) according to mace fighting.

praṇām

OM GUY
06 October 2011, 01:32 AM
18.17 Bhagavad Gita.

R Gitananda
06 October 2011, 03:09 AM
Namaste

I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion. According to my reading of Chapter 11 of Bhagavad Gita,
Sri Krushsna knows the karma of everyone and so is acting according to a different set of considerations.
Paramatma influenced Bhima to take a solemn oath to break the thigh of Duryodhana because he insulted
Sri Bhagavan's pure devotee by showing that same thigh to her in full view of the assembly. Sri Krushna,
even at the cost of incurring his older brother's displeasure, was right there to remind Bhima
of his duty to keep his vow.

Now Karna, who 'cheated' his guru out of his instruction by not being forthcoming about his lineage
was subsequently cursed by him and so Sri Krushna was right there to tell Arjuna to kill him while his
chariot wheel was stuck in the mud (which was not 'fair'); thus the curse of Karna's guru was fulfilled.

In both cases the cheaters got 'cheated'. And in my opinion that is completely 'fair'.

Hari Aum



hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Yes, yet what did occur in the war on the field of kurukṣhetra called out in the mahābhārata? What were the actions done by bhīma and striking his opponent durodhona ?

Is there a lesson being offered? What are your thoughts ?

praṇām

yajvan
06 October 2011, 12:07 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Namaste

I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion. According to my reading of Chapter 11 of Bhagavad Gita,
Sri Krushsna knows the karma of everyone and so is acting according to a different set of considerations.
Paramatma influenced Bhima to take a solemn oath to break the thigh of Duryodhana because he insulted
Sri Bhagavan's pure devotee by showing that same thigh to her in full view of the assembly. Sri Krushna,
even at the cost of incurring his older brother's displeasure, was right there to remind Bhima
of his duty to keep his vow.

Now Karna, who 'cheated' his guru out of his instruction by not being forthcoming about his lineage
was subsequently cursed by him and so Sri Krushna was right there to tell Arjuna to kill him while his
chariot wheel was stuck in the mud (which was not 'fair'); thus the curse of Karna's guru was fulfilled.

In both cases the cheaters got 'cheated'. And in my opinion that is completely 'fair'. Hari Aum

I see your points and think you have done an excellent job explaining the reasoning here. Here is one more idea for your kind consideration on this matter. It is my opinion the incidents/actions that you have called out ( and my question if there is a lesson nestled in the story) may also hold more fruit.

Kṛṣṇa-ji is the expression of mahāsattā and has the 'absolute' quality of svātantrya meaning 'following one's own will , freedom of the will , independence' (āt and ena means 'by one's own will , of one's own free choice , voluntarily , freely').
He is not bound by the rules of the relative field of life. It is His choice and His will on how matters may or may turn out when He chooses to participate. Hence the lesson ( for me) is that of the Supreme's svātantrya.

To the ~casual observer~ they see kṛṣṇa-ji making mischief. When we take a different look outside the rules of men, we see a different value that unfolds. The Supreme is far beyond the rules of men.

More can be said, but will leave it here for now.

praṇām

jasdir
07 October 2011, 04:07 AM
Namaste.

Soon I will inscribe a karate gym.
If I practice martial arts,do I go against Ahimsa?

Regards,
Orlando.
Surely you do, if really you know what is "Ahimsa".:)
But.. Bhakta ji, Karate is the weapon of "Himsa" not "Ahimsa",
Anyways.. karate can be used against "Himsa", but it very dangerous to use the weapon of enemy against them, it can create a big confusion between "Himsa" and "Ahimsa" while using this weapon, there is a lot of danger of doing "Himsa" by mistake while using this weapon.

I think if one wants to go against "Himsa" than firstly one should strart this fight with real weapons of "Ahimsa" ie: Meekness, Sweet-tounge, Humbleness etc..

_/\_Jasdir

charitra
07 October 2011, 11:28 PM
If some one raises a question as to what day of Mahabharata epic wsa the most important day, I would cast my vote for ‘the day of game of dice’, what a gripping drama that unfolded on that enthralling day, the day that served a prelude to the greatest war ever to take place on earth. For those who are not familiar withMahabharata epic, this long write up (sorry) may be of some help. No good storyteller, I shall try anyways.

Lets revise the pages of MAAYA JUDAM (roughly ‘rigged game of dice’ if you will), which was orchestrated by SHAKUNI maama, one cunning uncle who hatedPandavas to the core and hence he joins ranks with Kauravas. Kauravas encouraged by shakuni’s immense talent in the game of dice had a plan to take over Pandava’s kingdom and thus Pandava Agraja (eldest of Pandavaas),who had a weakness for this game, was enticed into accepting the invitation. When these cousins assembled in Hastinapura (capitol of Kaurava kingdom), Krishnaji was away, but nevertheless he was able to see the day’s proceedings through his divya drishti (crystal ball/ sixth sense, something on those lines).

Halfway through the game Pandavas have already lost their treasures, army and kingdom, then Dharma raja pawned and lost all his brothers later, and thus theoretically they became property of Kauravas. This is the scene. Draupadi was the only one left after Pandava elder offered himself as the last and only possible bet left to play.He lost himself and queen draupadi finally as the adharmic judam/ betting game went on to the horror of citizens of Hastinapura. Having lost everything now Pandavas are to serve the pleasure of Kauravas. Here comes the final blow to Pandavas, thatexplains clearly why they killed Kauravas the way they were in the MahabhaaratSangraam. Now the historical event unfolds for all to witness, a very sad dramaindeed.That technically she became their slave, Draupadi was dragged by her hair to the court. First Dussashana, younger brother of Duryodhana, tries to disrobe her tirelessly but fails in this long drawn attempt. Because Krishna comes to her rescue, without ever himself appearing in the court. (Krishna was spared from being physically witnessing the evil drama played out on that sinful day.)
He simply supplies so many miles of layers yarns of saree, the disrobing never materialises, the guy gives up and faints. Next, Duryodhana commits equallyserious sin, he winks at her and insults her by asking her to sit in his lap, he bashes his thigh repeatedly inviting her. Very gut wrenching as one would have imagined and especially to Pandavas.

Krishna envisioned a looming war watching Dharmraja’s losing streak. The game was doctored and rigged by Shakuni right from the word getgo. It is dharmic that the mighty Pandavas did not retaliate and annihilate the Kauravas then and there that day. Since they lost the game, however rigged it was, they had to abide by the rules of the game. The mightiest warriors of the times, had to swallow their pride when Draupadi was insulted in front of many elder relatives, warriors, citizens who have assembled in a jam packed court on that fateful day. (The (failed) attempt to disrobe was only an act to humiliate Pandavas, not an attempt to rape or otherwise bodily molest her or anything. Pandavas were instructed by Kauravas to leave their kingdom for 12 plus one years as the condition of their loss. It is a different matter that upon the return after 13 yrs, Kauravas had refused to honor their commitment and didn’t return kingdom back to Pandavas. That’s the main reason why the war took place)

Not challenging then on that day didn’t stop Pandavas taking up an oath of revenge to punish the guilty, though. First it was the turn of the beleaguered woman.Queen Draupadi didn’t have any doubts about the capabilities of her mighty husbands.She declares that her unfurled hair will remain that way (never ever to be combed and braided) until the hair is decorated with the blood of Dussashana. Next standing in the middle of the Hastinapur court Bhima roars, sending waves of fear in the hearts of Kauravas. Bhima ferociously makes a Shapath/ pratigna (promise/oath) that he would tear dussasana apart and anoint Draupadi’s hair with his blood, and then Bhima warns Duryodhana he would kill him by breaking his thighs/hips, in the forthcoming battle. Witnessing this ‘prologue’ there was no doubts in anyone’s mind how intense the war would turn out to be.


Now Yajvaan, on the 18th and the last day of the war during the actual duel,there certainly was a transgression alright but not in the eyes of these two warriors. They both remember that it was to come and hence it is not adharma (foul). Namaste.

yajvan
08 October 2011, 06:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Draupadi was the only one left after Pandava elder offered himself as the last and only possible bet left to play.He lost himself and queen draupadi finally as the adharmic judam/ betting game went on.
draupadī, who is dragged before the company by her hair, (an insult since a married woman’s hair is considered sacred) offers a profound question to the Kaurava-s: how can someone who has lost himself (yudhiṣṭhira) wager someone else in a game? No one can answer her. Even bhīṣma is confounded.

What is being offered here? What is the wisdom?

praṇām

charitra
09 October 2011, 11:28 AM
Bhishma Pita maha remained silent, as there was no precedence in the history for such a close call cases. Or, was his silence a tacit ‘go ahead’ nod to dharmaraja? Bhishma’s difficult choice rests on one important detail here. Let me present my case in support of Dharmaraja’s action. WHAT IF Dharmaraja WINS THIS final (Draupadi) BET? Pandavas will get back everything they lost, correct? If she doesn’t pitch in, then the game over, and in that climax Pndavas have no chance of reclaiming their just lost freedom or the kingdom. So it is her patni dharma now to save the skins of her husbands. She was STILL his Patni (wife) even after he lost himself to kauravas, it wouldn’t make the marriage null and void. The relationship cant freeze up or leave it insuspended animation.

Clearly Tamas was at its peak on that crucial day wasn’t it? (thatswhy graceful Krishna didn’t make his presence anywhere near that entire vast kingdom, though he was clearly aware of the proceedings in realtime).

Namaste.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

draupadī, who is dragged before the company by her hair, (an insult since a married woman’s hair is considered sacred) offers a profound question to the Kaurava-s: how can someone who has lost himself (yudhiṣṭhira) wager someone else in a game? No one can answer her. Even bhīṣma is confounded.

What is being offered here? What is the wisdom? praṇām

internationalhindu
09 October 2011, 11:59 AM
Bhaktha Of God....

It only depends on your intention of studying...it can be related to the common notion of the 'knife', in the hands of a doctor it can save a person's life while in the hands of a thief it can take life away....

Similarly, if you use your knowledge of martial arts only for the maintenance of fitness and to defend yourself then it is by no means wrong or against ahimsa. What is to be noted is that, most often, as time passes by people start to become more arrogant and have ego due to their increased strength. This can then lead to situations of violence to only establish one's superiority. It is this situation which is dangerous and against ahimsa. Hence, it is necessary to be aware of your ego and make sure you don't let it overcome you.

The very essence of 'karate' is only self-defence and not offense and so i believe it won't be against ahimsa.

I wish you all the best in your journey through karate. Om

flabber
19 October 2011, 04:39 AM
'Dharma himsa tathaiva cha – Swami Chinmayananda'
http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/dharma-himsa-tathaiva-cha-swami-chinmayananda/

anisha_astrologer
19 October 2011, 11:35 PM
no certainly not. ahimsa is a state of mind not a physical attribute. if you practice martial arts for self- defense and for the protection of others who are not capable enough to protect themselves, then it is not wrong. self-defense is not himsa as long as it is not intentional. ahimsa comes from intentions.

R Gitananda
20 October 2011, 01:29 AM
namaste

Flabber, thank you for sharing that link. The world is fortunate to have had
teachers like Swami Chinmayananda to interpret scriptures in a sane way.

Hari aum shanti



Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, dharma himsa tathaiva cha.
Non-violence is the greatest dharma, so to is all righteous violence.


'Dharma himsa tathaiva cha – Swami Chinmayananda'
http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/dharma-himsa-tathaiva-cha-swami-chinmayananda/