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Spiritualseeker
03 October 2011, 10:03 AM
Namaste,

I was discussing on another thread about some teachers that are caught in sexual scandals. Now of course there are those cases that are just plain deceiving, such as a person cheating on his wife or wife cheating on the husband. My question is it possible for an enlightened teaching to fool around with two women etc? A lot of times we conceptualize enlightenment, so I do not know if that is playing a role here. I just recently learned of Paramahamsa Nithyananda scandal and video that was released. I am sure there are many charlatans, but is there cases where it is justified? The reason I ask this is sometimes I hear strange stories about enlightened masters of the past. One was of this famous tibetan lama (can't think of the name right now), but he was known to do crazy things like urinate on scriptures etc (to break peoples concepts), but there is also a story of him sleeping with his own woman! By Sleeping I mean sex. So my question is are there legit enlightened beings who may engage in sexual play sometimes even threesomes? In my mind I see that they would be above this desire, but then another part of me says perhaps it doesn't matter.

By the way does anyone know of any other strange occurances with some authentic teachers?

Thank you

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
03 October 2011, 10:26 AM
Namaste SS,

Controlling one's sense organs and one's mind is the key to Self-realisation. Now, I am deliberately using this word, "Self-realisation" instead of enlightenment as this word has been abused like anything in Buddhism.

See what Yama says to Nachiketa in Kathopanishad :

NAvirato duscharitAnnAshAnto nAsamAhitah |
nAshAnmAnaso vApi prajnAnenainmApnuyAt ||

==> One who has not desisted from bad conduct, whose senses are not under control, whose mind is not concentrated, whose mind is not free from anxiety, cannot attain this Self through "knowledge" (alone).

Therefore, you may be well versed in the Vedas, very articulate in giving lectures on Shastras and thus can be known as a JnAni (knowledgeable) but you are as far from realisation of Self as anyone in this world is if you have not been able to control your senses and mind.

Anyone can claim that he/she is enlightened ... but you can know that he/she is a fake if you notice any such weaknesses in him/her. Will an enlightened being be interested in making money (except for obvious benevolent purposes) ... can enlightenment be traded for a thousand dollars .... Nithyananda's actions gave enough hints that he was a fraud ! But then there are many who want to take a short-cut even in spirituality !! People didn't even bother to verify who conferred on him the sacred title of "Paramhansa" ? Such blind people are responsible for the rise of a fraud like Nithyananda.

OM

Sahasranama
03 October 2011, 10:37 AM
People didn't even bother to verify who conferred on him the sacred title of "Paramhansa" ? Such blind people are responsible for the rise of a fraud like Nithyananda.

OMYou make some good points, but even worse are people who blindly followed the mafia baba who was enganged in illegal conduct with minors.

Spiritualseeker
03 October 2011, 10:39 AM
Namaste,

Thank you devotee. There are so many frauds out there. In a way these frauds do reveal something that is disliked in our own egos, but their actions cannot be excused. The conduct of the charlatans really show what they are on about, such as the 'prophet' Muhammad and other such people that claim to be people of God and yet abuse their power by manipulating students (or followers).

I do wonder about some of the liberated souls of before whom have strange tales, but I suppose in reality they do not really matter at all.

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
03 October 2011, 10:45 AM
I do wonder about some of the liberated souls of before whom have strange tales, but I suppose in reality they do not really matter at all.


Strange tales are there in cases of really Self-realised souls too but there the action is deliberately enacted for the benefit of someone or the mankind & not due their weakness in controlling their sense organs/mind. ... but I think such cases are rare.

OM

Spiritualseeker
03 October 2011, 10:47 AM
Thats nicely said. It seems in each of the circumstances that there was something larger being taught. I think you are right that such instances are rare.

Om Namah Shivaya

sm78
03 October 2011, 01:31 PM
Thats nicely said. It seems in each of the circumstances that there was something larger being taught. I think you are right that such instances are rare.

Om Namah Shivaya

While I am of the opinion that sex has little or nothing to do with enlightenment, but even from the more traditional views I am aware of there are indeed possibilities of enlightened individuals getting entangled with women and sex due to prarabdha karma.

Englitenment doesn't destroy prarabdha and has to be dealt with. It is the reason why enligtened beings still have a body of flesh and blood, still get sick, still forget things etc etc...human prarabdha once started has to be seen through - and this includes entanglement with women from past lives.

Does that mean Nityananda was Ok? Definitely not - but I don't need a sex scandal vedio to arrive at that conclusion, nor does sex scandal change anything for me.

Seek The Truth
13 November 2011, 06:07 PM
We have had so many opinions offered regarding my Guru Paramahamsa Nithyananda and the " sex scandal". But how many of us have tried to understand the issue for what it is?
Are we aware that the Bangalore police for all its wisdom in incarcerating the Swami has not submitted the " sex CD" as evidence in the Court of Law. Why has it not? Despite the passage of almost two years of the "scandal" breaking. Obviously because the CD in question will not stand the scrutiny of the court.
How is it, that the man ( Lenin) who released the CD is now in the same Court of Law fighting to keep himself out of jail? How is it that the media outlet, initially responsible for airing the video has lost credibility with its executive arrested for blackmail and land grabbing?
How is it that despite the scandal, followers continue to flock to Him? Mind you, His followers include highly educated individuals. How is it that people leave lucrative jobs from all walks of life to be near Him?
It is indeed easy to hide behind the wall of the internet and quote the sacred scriptures and try to explore the depths. Difficult indeed it is, to submit the Ego to a LIVING person, enlightened or otherwise !

Seek The Truth
13 November 2011, 06:08 PM
We have had so many opinions offered regarding my Guru Paramahamsa Nithyananda and the " sex scandal". But how many of us have tried to understand the issue for what it is?
Are we aware that the Bangalore police for all its wisdom in incarcerating the Swami has not submitted the " sex CD" as evidence in the Court of Law. Why has it not? Despite the passage of almost two years of the "scandal" breaking. Obviously because the CD in question will not stand the scrutiny of the court.
How is it, that the man ( Lenin) who released the CD is now in the same Court of Law fighting to keep himself out of jail? How is it that the media outlet, initially responsible for airing the video has lost credibility with its executive arrested for blackmail and land grabbing?
How is it that despite the scandal, followers continue to flock to Him? Mind you, His followers include highly educated individuals. How is it that people leave lucrative jobs from all walks of life to be near Him?
It is indeed easy to hide behind the wall of the internet and quote the sacred scriptures and try to explore the depths. Difficult indeed it is, to submit the Ego to a LIVING person, enlightened or otherwise !

NayaSurya
13 November 2011, 10:18 PM
What a good question you post SS about this world and so thoughtful too.

An incarnation here or in a higher layer I have heard is very rare...and I think this sounds likely...and even though the joy of sharing yourself with a Beloved Portion is a wonderful thing, it fades against the wonders of pure Bliss.

Long ago...one very Beloved to me was very very Beloved to many...and He was so Beloved, others came to Him very often and asked to come into His family. Even I did love Him so truly, but as His child.

To those beautiful Portions He was the embodiment of Beloved Everything and they simply fell to His Beloved Feet. Much to His dismay. He did not see Himself as worthy of such admiration. Beloved to my heart and to each and every Portion He met because of His deep humility and compassion.

But, overtime many of them joined Him and He cared for them so very wonderfully...not one could have asked for anything in Heaven more than what they had.

So, yes...I think is such a rare occurance a Beloved Portion could come here and be so very very very near to Beloved that He/She became the very embodiment of Beloved Everything and could have many Portions who would serve their entire life at His/Her Beloved Feet with so much Love.

But, as rare as our incarnations are to these layers above, below and in between...an incarnation with such a high awareness would be a billion times more rare.

Kismet
14 November 2011, 12:42 AM
I think a good complimentary question here is: how is sex good at all, really?

For procreation, I'll grant (though even here I have a good many thoughts) but what possible benefit can one accrue from the indulgence of his organs in sense-gratification?

Not to sound preachy here, but I think that sex only wastes one's own precious energies: mentally and spiritually. These powers of one's self could be put to much better use; such as cultivating high and positive thoughts, and sublimating them towards more deeper sadhana. Sex is bad; but sexual energy is life itself. To exhaust it seems a compulsive sin grounded in fear and quick-fixes.

Adhvagat
14 November 2011, 02:51 AM
I think a good complimentary question here is: how is sex good at all, really?

For procreation, I'll grant (though even here I have a good many thoughts) but what possible benefit can one accrue from the indulgence of his organs in sense-gratification?

Not to sound preachy here, but I think that sex only wastes one's own precious energies: mentally and spiritually. These powers of one's self could be put to much better use; such as cultivating high and positive thoughts, and sublimating them towards more deeper sadhana. Sex is bad; but sexual energy is life itself. To exhaust it seems a compulsive sin grounded in fear and quick-fixes.

I still see an unnecessary moral judgement in your speech. I'd say sex is just another aspect of life and it's as important as any other sensory activity.

If one enjoys good food (or any other quality sensorial object) what makes sex practiced with the person's given partner so bad for it to be classified as sinful? Kama is still a purushartha and the Kama sutra isn't an abrahamic invention. ;)

The point is not classifying sex as sinful on the whole, but being aware of how sexual longing can be deeply rooted in unconscious factors or how the mind can fall in the trap of blind lust.

And I'm also sure the time we are most affected by sexual desire is not the time that we are anywhere close to being enlightened. :p

Kismet
14 November 2011, 04:50 AM
I still see an unnecessary moral judgement in your speech. I'd say sex is just another aspect of life and it's as important as any other sensory activity.

If one enjoys good food (or any other quality sensorial object) what makes sex practiced with the person's given partner so bad for it to be classified as sinful? Kama is still a purushartha and the Kama sutra isn't an abrahamic invention. ;)

The point is not classifying sex as sinful on the whole, but being aware of how sexual longing can be deeply rooted in unconscious factors or how the mind can fall in the trap of blind lust.

And I'm also sure the time we are most affected by sexual desire is not the time that we are anywhere close to being enlightened. :p

Sin is the wrong word. You are right. A part of my Abrahamic brain seems to want to continue to see the activities humans do in a dark, guilt-ridden light, and you are definitely correct in calling me out for it.

How should I phrase this... Sex is a part of life, true, but life in the world is constrained by material relations. These influences tend to more often than not hinder rather than enliven the human spirit. Sex, I suppose, when used in the right hands can be a joyous experience - but never trust experiences too well. Experience can only take you so far. Once we start fixating on experiences, we become enslaved to passion, and this is where distraction leads us away from the goal, I think.

A complicated issue, to be sure, and my two posts don't do it justice, but I remain steadfast in, not my condemnation of the sex act, but in my depreciation of it.

NayaSurya
14 November 2011, 05:39 AM
PI such a Goodly post!

Sex between two married Portions can be wonderful for the spirit. It is good, not a sin! For some there is no guilt only mutual Love and Respect..as we have no abrahamic fairytail to make us miserable. Done in the sunshine of every day...with complete Love.

My craftshow this weekend I met Pen Dutch menonite. They remind me so much of another religion here in KY called Shaker. These people and others, especially the Amish punish themselves SO much...
No bright colors even can they wear. No dancing...no mundane joy.

This time here is SO limited, humans seemed to want to limit it even more. Enjoy this time with your husband or wife. As you grow older...these things slip away naturally and other activities grow stronger. But, as young folks it's okay to share each other, to Love.

This realm is SO dark...so full of pain and suffering...and no matter how long I am here I will never understand why some would try to take away the few mundane joys we can find here.

Sex and good foods...and good conversations with good people...laughter...singing....rollercoasters. Gifts from Beloved to make this time here one of experiences! Also things to help forge our ability to transcend these wonderful experiences and move forwad.

Have you ever prayed during each of these activities?

I have...and what I have found is that if you can manage a mantra at the top of any one of these activities....it certainly show Beloved that "See? Even in this wonderful state I have come to you with my heart full of passion and joy...because even in the most joyful mundane activity...Beloved my heart is Yours<3"


...and sex with your husband, Beloved Portion which has been entrusted to you is Holy act of divine Love! Giving of yourself, not wishing for anything but to make another happy. Such things are vespered Gifts to Beloved.

As precious a gift as the food we offer each day...

As with any of these mundane joyful things...It's all about portion control and attitude.

sm78
14 November 2011, 09:44 AM
We have had so many opinions offered regarding my Guru Paramahamsa Nithyananda and the " sex scandal". But how many of us have tried to understand the issue for what it is?
Are we aware that the Bangalore police for all its wisdom in incarcerating the Swami has not submitted the " sex CD" as evidence in the Court of Law. Why has it not? Despite the passage of almost two years of the "scandal" breaking. Obviously because the CD in question will not stand the scrutiny of the court.
How is it, that the man ( Lenin) who released the CD is now in the same Court of Law fighting to keep himself out of jail? How is it that the media outlet, initially responsible for airing the video has lost credibility with its executive arrested for blackmail and land grabbing?
How is it that despite the scandal, followers continue to flock to Him? Mind you, His followers include highly educated individuals. How is it that people leave lucrative jobs from all walks of life to be near Him?
It is indeed easy to hide behind the wall of the internet and quote the sacred scriptures and try to explore the depths. Difficult indeed it is, to submit the Ego to a LIVING person, enlightened or otherwise !

Even though some outdated victorian laws are still part of indian penal code, it would be unbelievable for police to actually charge someone (Nityananda in this case) for having sex!!! Millions of Indian's do that every day, and also per haves millions outside wedlock.

Typical south Indian circus politics is responsible to make such a big issue of something so meaningless in actual terms. Police had to move in, because of public pressure and politics. But there is no case unless their was rape, hence other issues are being dug up like land grab - precious little to do with the sex tape. Again only in India and only in South India.

All sensible people know there is nothing criminal in Nityananda's behavior - and that was not what was being discussed. So your questioning of how police and that Christist Lenin is behaving is irrelevant. But don't dwell in the denial of what your Guru did. You may question the morality around the act, but not the fact. Police did not bring up the CD in court, not because they think it is fake, but simply because it means nothing in the court of law - unless the lady in the vedio alleges rape or something. Get the point?

Seek The Truth
14 November 2011, 05:53 PM
If I am not wrong what has been understood by you is this....that the CD in question is genuine and that the Swami has indulged in sex and that what He has done is not legally wrong but morally is wrong.
The gist of what I am trying to tell you is this....that the CD is fake. Obviously I cannot prove that to you. So all I am asking is before you base your judgement on the purported CD wait for the investigation of the genuiness of the CD to come out. The investigation into that aspect is not complete yet !
If interested you can watch this press meet by the Swami on this scandal in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otim982HwLo
It is so disheartening to see intelligent people getting suckered by the media. To tell you honestly, I would be in the same boat were it not for my deep personal spiritual experiences with the Swami. And frankly, I hardly care if the CD is true or not just because of the Truth of my Experiences. In the two years of my meeting Him I would say that there has been a 180 degree turnaround for the better in ALL aspects of my life.
In a way, my journey began in Hindudharmaforums about four years ago with several of the discussions here inspiring me to delve deeper. So, fellow traveller lets have an open mind and seek the beauty within. I am not even here to convince anybody about the genuineness of my Swami ( Time will take care of that) but out of a deep sense of fraternity to my friends here to not miss this precious opportunity. Words or mere words and can never carry what I want to convey.
Good Luck

sm78
20 November 2011, 12:48 PM
Dear STT, since you are convinced about it, I don't need any proof. Since personally I have no interest in what Nityananda does or whether he is getting it or not, I don't need any proof of fake-ness of the CD. India has been a land of hero worship for a long long time, I don't think it will change in anyway on the foreseeable future. Best of luck on your spiritual journey with your Guru. However as a parting word I would like to tell you that true Guru-shishya relationship in the spiritual domain (not the acharya-chatra relationship) has nothing to do with hero worship and reverence to personalities or their greatness (real or cooked up). A true Guru-shishya meeting may only happen for 5 minutes in the whole life, but lasts for eternity.

Seek The Truth
21 December 2011, 04:46 AM
It is sad indeed that the Path of BHakti, one of the foremost pillars of Vedic tradition is being denigrated as Hero-worship. Macaulay would be smiling in his grave.
And as far as my relationship with my Guru is concerned, it is not for a third person to judge or comment upon.