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SBS108
03 October 2011, 10:05 AM
In mantras why is there a "ya" and the end of the Deities name like

Om Sri Ganesha ya Namaha
Om Namah Shiva ya
Om Namo Narayana ya

Thanks

yajvan
04 October 2011, 11:49 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté SBS108


In mantras why is there a "ya" and the end of the Deities name like

Om Sri Ganesha ya Namaha
Om Namah Shiva ya
Om Namo Narayana ya


There are a few reasons. First 'ya' can meaning joining or attaining. So 'ya' is a favorable sound. It also assists in rounding out the number of phonemes ( sound syllables ) to the mantra that make it overall a positive influence. The number of syllables is of great import as to its influence from a jyotish point of view.

oṁ namo nārāyaṇaya - ॐ नमो नारायणय
Let's count the syllables (phonemes or akṣaraš)

oṁ__na-mo__ nā-rā-ya-ṇa-ya
_1___2 - 3 __ _4- 5- 6 -7 - 8


praṇām

words
akṣara - a syllable , a sound. This word also means imperishable .

Jainarayan
04 October 2011, 12:24 PM
First 'ya' can meaning joining or attaining.

That's a a good way of putting it.

Being more boring (unless you're a linguistics geek like me who gets thrills out of this stuff :D) it's also the grammatical dative case meaning "to". The masculine is -ya; feminine is -yai for names ending in a.

Shiva = Shivaya = "to Shiva" (masculine a- stem adds -ya)
Durga = Durgayai = "to Durga" (feminine a- stem adds -yai)
Ganesha = Ganeshaya = "to Ganesha"
Krishna = Krishnaya = "to Krishna"

Ganapathi = Ganapathaye = "to Ganapathi" (i- stems drop the i- and adds the -aye for masculine)
Saraswati = Saraswatyai = "to Saraswati" (i- stems drop the i- and adds the -yai for feminine)
Lakshmi = Lakshmyai = "to Lakshmi" (feminine i- stem)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit_grammar#a-stems

See the row for Dative.

All nouns, pronouns, and adjectives are declined and verbs inflected this way. This makes the richness and nuances of Sanskrit, and the reason things don't translate well into English. English has almost none of this richness and conciseness.

devotee
04 October 2011, 12:40 PM
Namaste SBS & Yajvan,


In mantras why is there a "ya" and the end of the Deities name like

Om Sri Ganesha ya Namaha
Om Namah Shiva ya
Om Namo Narayana ya

Thanks

Yajvan ji has given interesting answer to your query and that shows his strength in Jyotish. I shall speak from grammar point of view :

OM Namah Shivaya : Here Shivaya means "for Shiva".

There are eight Kaaraks to take care of the words like "in, of, for, hey, to etc." which are taken care of by vibhaktis used with the nouns/pronouns in Sanskrit.

1)The first Vibhkati is used when the word is used as subject or noun without any kaarak.
2) The second vibhakti is used when the the action is being done on the subject
3) The third vibhakti is used when the action is being performed by subject
4) The fourth vibhakti is used when action is done for the subject

etc.

When we do "namaskaar" (Namah in Sanskrit) then it is dome for the subject. In the above subject Shiva is the subject for whom namaskaar is being performed. Therefore Shiva is used with fourth vibhakti. As Shiva is a noun,Pullinga , singular number ending with sound "a" so, this vibhakti will be "ya" as in case of "Baalak" or "Gaja" etc. Let's notice that we don't use "ya" with female goddesses ... Om Kaalikaayai namah or Namo devyai etc.

OM

yajvan
04 October 2011, 02:28 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Some excellent insights have been offered above by devotee and Touched-by-the-Lord

If I may ( without going too deep) let me add a few notions and always look for additional insights and/or corrections.

ya - is considered mascline gender; it has a relationship with yad ' who , which , what '
yā - is considered feminine gender¹ and in fact is a name for lakṣmī ( note the long ī at the end of the name)If I said śivā this is feminine and tells me it is śiva's wife (also śivī) and we're now talking śrī devī. We find the long ī consistent in the feminine devatā e.g. mahādevī , māheśvarī, mahākāmeśamahiṣī, īśvarī, etc.

On another note - I do find yā (vs. ya) in the names of female devatā; let me offer a few for one's kind consideration:

manuvidyā - is identified with durgā-ma
turyā - She that is identical with turya (Some spell turīya)
hṛdyā - She who resides in the heart ( heart is code name for pure awareness)Perhaps we at some future date re-visit all the rules of grammar and take some practice with them. I too continue to learn , not considering my-self any more then the śiṣya.

praṇām


words
Gender - these characteristics/marks are called puṃ-liṅga , strī -liṅga and napuṃsaka-liṅga:

puṃ-liṅga - puṃ = puṃs is a masculine word but also defined as a man , a male being , a human being ; it looses its 's' before a consonant in this case 'la' in liṅga.
strī -liṅga strī is defined as the the feminine gender yet also is defined as the 'bearer of children'; the word is also found as strīm and strīs - a woman , female , wife
napuṃsaka-liṅga - napuṃsaka is na +puṃ+saka : na = not or no + puṃ = male being + saka ='he that man , she that woman '
Hence napuṃsaka means not male being or woman. It seems for economy this word could just be nasaka ( my contrived word) - not man or woman.

saidevo
04 October 2011, 09:40 PM
namaste Devotee and others.

A small correction to your post #4. The fourth (dative) case is 'to', rather than 'for', although 'to' and 'for' are used interchangeably. This is because, saying 'I do namaskAram for Shiva' could also mean 'I do (this) namaskAram (to someone else) for (the sake of) Shiva'; whereas saying 'I do namaskAram to Shiva' has no such ambiguity of meaning.

Tamizh grammar which is much similar to that of Sanskrit, teaches us a formula to remember the eight cases easily: peyar--ai--All--ku--il--adhu--kaN--viLhi, that is, name--direct object--by/with--to/for--from/out of==of/'s--in/on/at--calling/hey!.

Thus, example sentences of the eight different cases could be (In these examples, Rama is a boy, not the God):

01. rAmaH gachChati: Rama goes.
02. gajaH rAmaM pashyati: The elephant sees Rama.
03. nRupaH rAmeNa gachChati: The king goes with Rama.
04. nRupaH rAmAya phalaM yachChati: The king gives the fruit to Rama.
05. phalaM rAmAt patati: The fruit fell down from Rama. (say from his pocket).
06. nRupaH rAmasya grAmaM gachChati: The kings goes to Rama's village.
07. rAmaH grAme mandaM aTati: Rama wanders slowly in the village.
08. he rAmaH: O (Hey) Rama!

devotee
04 October 2011, 11:43 PM
Namaste Saidevoji,


namaste Devotee and others.

A small correction to your post #4. The fourth (dative) case is 'to', rather than 'for', although 'to' and 'for' are used interchangeably. This is because, saying 'I do namaskAram for Shiva' could also mean 'I do (this) namaskAram (to someone else) for (the sake of) Shiva'; whereas saying 'I do namaskAram to Shiva' has no such ambiguity of meaning.

Tamizh grammar which is much similar to that of Sanskrit, teaches us a formula to remember the eight cases easily: peyar--ai--All--ku--il--adhu--kaN--viLhi, that is, name--direct object--by/with--to/for--from/out of==of/'s--in/on/at--calling/hey!.

Thus, example sentences of the eight different cases could be (In these examples, Rama is a boy, not the God):

01. rAmaH gachChati: Rama goes.
02. gajaH rAmaM pashyati: The elephant sees Rama.
03. nRupaH rAmeNa gachChati: The king goes with Rama.
04. nRupaH rAmAya phalaM yachChati: The king gives the fruit to Rama.
05. phalaM rAmAt patati: The fruit fell down from Rama. (say from his pocket).
06. nRupaH rAmasya grAmaM gachChati: The kings goes to Rama's village.
07. rAmaH grAme mandaM aTati: Rama wanders slowly in the village.
08. he rAmaH: O (Hey) Rama!

Thanks for taking pains to explain all this. Actually, the fourth vibhakti is used when something is being done "for a person" and not "to the person". When it is done to a person then the case is "Karma" i.e. the second vibhakti. When it is for the person then the case is "Sampradaan" and the vibhakti is the fourth.

However, the use of "to" or "for" doesn't not follow the same logic in English/Tamil/Hindi that it follows in Sanskrit and that is why the confusion. You are right that "in this case" it gives a clear meaning if "to" instead of "for" is used. Particularly, this problem is seen when used in in kriyas (actions) like "give" and "namah".

Similarly, there is problem in "Karma" i.e. second vibhakti too where "to" may or may not be there. Translation always has some serious limitations. :)

OM

The problem is not in Sanskrit. The problem is because we are seeing it from perspective of other language which is not Sanskrit e.g. English, Tamil or Hindi.

yajvan
05 October 2011, 11:11 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté saidevo, devotee

Can you gentlemen consider starting a new string and discuss various parts of applying and identifying vibhakti ( some write sup-vibhakti) ? Examples with their case endings of eka-vacana, dvi-vacana and bahu-vacana would be helpful. Perhaps with the use of liṅga (gender) will be meaningful as it is applied correctly.

What would be helpful is identifying the noun case endings (sup-vibhakti) that align properly with the relationship to the verb.
Perhaps starting with the first 3 ?

prathamā - usually names the subject of a simple sentence
dvitīyā - destination of an action ( expressed by a verb)
tṛtīyā - the 'instrument' i.e. by means of which an action is accomplished.

Say we use the form of naraḥ and we're talking eka-vacana form, then:
prathamā - naraḥ ( man)
dvitīyā - naram (men)
tṛtīyā - nareṇa ( eṇa is due to saṁdhi rule , of which ena is the generic form)


Maybe starting off simple, then going to more robust examples my be of value to the HDF reader.

thank you,

praṇām

yajvan
05 October 2011, 11:34 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

namaste Devotee and others.

A small correction to your post #4.
Tamizh grammar which is much similar to that of Sanskrit, teaches us a formula to remember the eight cases easily: peyar--ai--All--ku--il--adhu--kaN--viLhi, that is, name--direct object--by/with--to/for--from/out of==of/'s--in/on/at--calling/hey!.

Thus, example sentences of the eight different cases could be (In these examples, Rama is a boy, not the God):

01. rAmaH gachChati: Rama goes.
02. gajaH rAmaM pashyati: The elephant sees Rama.
03. nRupaH rAmeNa gachChati: The king goes with Rama.
04. nRupaH rAmAya phalaM yachChati: The king gives the fruit to Rama.
05. phalaM rAmAt patati: The fruit fell down from Rama. (say from his pocket).
06. nRupaH rAmasya grAmaM gachChati: The kings goes to Rama's village.
07. rAmaH grAme mandaM aTati: Rama wanders slowly in the village.
08. he rAmaH: O (Hey) Rama!

I thought to just help the reader a bit on the 8th case called out here.
The 8th case is called sambodhana. Many contend saṃskṛt only has 7 cases, yet an 8th case is recognized. Sambodhana means awaking , arousing , calling. If I said Oh, Lord, this would be an example. Just as saidevo uses the term above he rAmaH: O (Hey) Rama!.

It is taught that sambodhana is simply a special use or application of the 1st case, prathamā and is sometimes called sambodhana-prathamā. Perfectly clear ,eh?

Perhaps saidevo-jī and devotee-jī will lead us in a discussion on the use of these ideas found in saṃskṛt.

praṇām

yajvan
05 October 2011, 01:08 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté devotee,




Thanks for taking pains to explain all this. Actually, the fourth vibhakti is used when something is being done "for a person" and not "to the person".

When we're talking of caturthī vibhakti ( the 4th case) could we not say it indicates the beneficary or purpose of the action ( verb) ?
Lets take an English example :
He gives food to the beggar
He makes a bed for the beggar

In each example to and for is used, but the idea here is the recipient of the benefit.

Hence as you have written
OM Namah Shivaya : Here Shivaya means "for Shiva".
This śivaya tell us, for ( the benefit or recipient) śiva . If we go one more step ( from a previous post above)

ya - is considered mascline gender; it has a relationship with yad ' who , which , what '

So 'ya' in this example of śivaya answers the question of 'who' which = śiva.

You mention

"Karma" i.e. the second vibhakti
I understand it to be dvitīyā - destination of an action ( expressed by a verb).

Please correct my errors in understanding.

praṇām

Jainarayan
05 October 2011, 02:11 PM
Namaste yajvan.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté devotee,



When we're talking of caturthī vibhakti ( the 4th case) could we not say it indicates the beneficary or purpose of the action ( verb) ?
Lets take an English example :
He gives food to the beggar
He makes a bed for the beggar

In each example to and for is used, but the idea here is the recipient of the benefit.

Yes, recipient of the benefit. In short, you've described the function of the dative case: it is the indirect object of a verb.

The accusative case would be "He fed the beggar"; "He saw the beggar". It is the direct object of a verb.


Nominal cases:

Nominative: names the noun (person, place, thing). The beggar.
Accusative: direct object of a verb. "He fed the beggar".
Instrumental: usage, instrument of an action: "The beggar ate with a spoon".
Dative: indirect object of a verb. "He gave food to the beggar" ("for the beggar would work too, as it's still an indirect object).
Genitive: possession. "He stole the food of the beggar" (or the beggar's food, as is more common in English).
Locative: location. "He is with the beggar (or sat by the beggar).
Ablative: away from, out of, etc. "The beggar came from Varanasi" (oh I just pulled that out of the air).
Vocative: calling or invoking. "O Beggar!" "Hey you, beggar!"

Quick lesson in nominal declensions. It works pretty much the same way in Latin, Greek, Russian, Lithuanian and many other languages. Some like English, have lost almost all nominal inflection and use prepositions.

This might tie things together: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension#Sanskrit

vrikśh[at] parṇ[am] bhūm[au] patati

[from] the tree a leaf [to] the ground falls

"a leaf falls from the tree to the ground"

Ablative
Nominative
Locative
Verb

Btw, maybe move this to Canteen? Just a suggestion. :)

devotee
05 October 2011, 11:23 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté devotee,



When we're talking of caturthī vibhakti ( the 4th case) could we not say it indicates the beneficary or purpose of the action ( verb) ?
Lets take an English example :
He gives food to the beggar
He makes a bed for the beggar

In each example to and for is used, but the idea here is the recipient of the benefit.

Hence as you have written
This śivaya tell us, for ( the benefit or recipient) śiva . If we go one more step ( from a previous post above)

ya - is considered mascline gender; it has a relationship with yad ' who , which , what '

So 'ya' in this example of śivaya answers the question of 'who' which = śiva.

You mention

I understand it to be dvitīyā - destination of an action ( expressed by a verb).

Please correct my errors in understanding.

praṇām

You are right, Yajvan ji. The fourth vibhakti is used for the "beneficiary" of the action as TBTL too has pointed out.

I could not get this word right in expressing what was required ... being a native does help ! So, thanks to you and TBTL for pointing out the right word. :)

One more thing, it is not really "ya" it is "aaya" (for the fourth vibhakti) which comes in all such cases.

OM

Jainarayan
06 October 2011, 09:09 AM
One more thing, it is not really "ya" it is "aaya" (for the fourth vibhakti) which comes in all such cases.

OM

Absolutely right. The masc. a- stem changes to āya. It would be Shivāya. Rāma becomes Rāmāya, Krishna becomes Krishnāya. Feminine kāntā becomes kāntāyai. We can get crazy with the dual and plural also (kāntābhyām, kāntābhyās). Or not. :D

yajvan
06 October 2011, 11:54 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Let me if I may stretch the conversation a bit more...

āya is to approach, also 'gain'. So we can see why using this with śivāya makes sense. We note that śivāya can equal śiva+ āya or it can be śiva+aya. By the rules of saṁdhi a+a = ā. So what can that infer ?

śiva+ āya can mean approaching and gaining śiva
śiva+ aya meaning going or moving ( aya is defined as such) to śiva
śiva+ ya meaning for the benefit of śivapraṇām

Jainarayan
06 October 2011, 12:18 PM
Namaste.

To me it underscores the subtleties and nuances of Sanskrit that are extremely hard if not impossible to reproduce in English. The tone or pitch accent of a "letter" can competely change the meaning of a word. I read somewhere that at one time early Vedic Sanskrit was a very musical language, lending itself to being preserved orally before being written down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udatta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatpurusha

cmorel02
03 November 2011, 03:35 PM
I thought the 'ya' always meant something along the lines of 'great one'

i.e.
Om namah shivaya-Om I bow to the great one shiva...

Maybe I was wrong?

yajvan
03 November 2011, 05:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I thought the 'ya' always meant something along the lines of 'great one'
This 'ya' and 'āya' have many meanings, yet there are no roots that I see back to 'great'.

Let see if this helps a bit for how we may get to 'great' with śiva's name - nama śivāya

nama is short for namas , to bow .
Hence nama śivāya is I bow ( and approach using 'ya' = for the benefit of ) śiva.
We also write it like this namaḥ. I may say rāmāya namaḥ, and then I have rāma +āya + namaḥ ( see the posts above for this āya). Now what of this ? nāma śivāya - note the long 'a' in nāma śivāya.

nāma is defined as ' by name' and we can see how this works for this mantra.

yet, nāma = nāman = a good or great name , renown , fame. Hence with nāma we are saying the great (name) and renowned śivāya .

...perhaps that helps a bit.

praṇām

Jainarayan
04 November 2011, 10:30 AM
I thought the 'ya' always meant something along the lines of 'great one'

i.e.
Om namah shivaya-Om I bow to the great one shiva...

Maybe I was wrong?

Namaste cmorel.

If you look further up in the thread you will see a discussion on the nominal declension of names. That is, endings that are added to names that correspond to English prepositions such as to, from, with, for, etc.

Not to repeat the posts, but but briefly, -Aya (with a long A) is the male singular of "to [name]" That is, ShivAya means "to Shiva", KrishnAya means "to Krishna".

Therefore "Om namah ShivAya" means "Obeisance/salutation/bow to Shiva". "Om namo Bhagavate VAsudevAya" = Obeisance/salutation/bow to Bhagavan VAsudeva". Bhagavate must be declined (its root ending changed) to match VAsudevAya. If you know Latin or Greek or Russian, it's very similar.