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Eastern Mind
12 October 2011, 12:47 PM
Vannakkam: One of the qualities of a mature person is self-discipline. But I am pondering today on two things. Firstly, what is it? Secondly, how do we cultivate it?

From observation, the amount of it that individual jivas have varies greatly. If we were to use sitting perfectly still as an example, in a random group of 20 people, I am guessing the range in time would be somewhere from 2 seconds to 10 minutes. I think beyond 10 minutes, we'd probably have to get 100 people in the sample. Of course, if we selected only those of us on HDF, it would be no random sample eat all.

What are all the things it involves? Some examples are speech, eating, punctuality, and limiting television. I'm sure there are more.

Ideas about this?

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
12 October 2011, 01:54 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I am very happy you posted this. I'd like to see the responses from the HDF community.
I see discipline as self-control, as yama. More can be said later on this matter as others post their ideas.

Yet one way of building this discipline ( that I have found) is asking yourself a simple question: Look at your behaviors, look at your goals. Does your behavior (actions) match your goals ? What a simple ~test~ of alignment! It is by aligning ones behaviors to one's goals that offers self-control; your intent ( not your whims) is the driver.
One is not thrown off track by distractions. It is the distractions , and the chasing thereof, that keeps one undisciplined. Discipline ( to me) does not mean being rigid; it is all about remaining one-pointed.

praṇām

saidevo
12 October 2011, 08:54 PM
namaste everyone.

I agree with EM and Yajvan. EM emphasizes stilling the mind by reducing its external indulgences. Yajvan is more for alignment of behaviours to goals.

• Goals of almost everyone of us are of two kinds: worldly and spiritual. If our worldly goals are aligned with dharma, then we are safe in not creating much negative karma. If our spiritual goals are aligned with the type of sAdhana--accomplishments we can make, then we are safe. In either case it would then be easy to align behaviour to goals.

• Worldly goals are fulfilled once we have the basic necessities of food, clothing and shelter, plus the means to cater to our family. Of the variables here, considering the rising costs, shelter has the priority: where we live in a rented apartment, we need to save to buy our own in a surrounding congenial to our spiritual growth. Food and clothing are bound to become expensive with time, but we can restrict the clothes at some point of time, and restrict the food to the most essential for a healthy body. Family is an undefined variable, since its scope varies with the individual. In addition, we have to cater to our family on all the three essentials: food, clothing and shelter.

• Another important worldly goal is education, both we acquire for ourselves and give our children. The factors involved in education are the aims and ambitions towards steady, life-long occupations that can cater to our three basic essentials of worldly life as well as to our spiritual goals (as early as possible in life).

• For spiritual goals, most of us are interested in doing something in the three paths: karma, bhakti and yoga. Aligning to dharma takes care of our karma. Seeking God for guidelines to our worldly life aligns us with bhakti, and the karma--rituals and pujas we perform here vary with our worldly and spiritual aims. Seeking the Self aligns us in the path of yoga. The spirituals goals get refined with shravana--listening to satsangha--company of wise men, manana--our own reading the spiritual texts we seek to read and contemplate to understand them better, and (only then) nididhyAsanA--profound meditation.

The manas--mind being the means of defining and aligning to all our goals, it helps to listen to our manasAkShi--conscience.

NayaSurya
13 October 2011, 10:24 AM
I thought about this a lot before coming to add to these very wise comments.

A few evenings ago I sat looking at a nurse and told her not to leave the remote for the television. She was stunned by this, not a request she had ever gotten from someone. But, she seemed to take it in stride, surprised but acceptable. Then, when my first meal came, and I hadn't eaten since the day prior so I was grateful to have but then upon seeing it, I did decline she became very weird with me. I had to tell her..."please...no meat."

The Pollyanna in me is always at odds with making such waves. I hate to be a burden upon another...and so to tell her these things was very hard but I had no choice.

Turning down christian chaplains...checking the Hindu box on the forms.
All bring a flurry of awkward moments with people who would have never said a thing to you had it not been divulged.

Discipline is such a dynamic thing you know? So interdependant upon so many things we may not even consider. Such as our own tendency to accept what is given and try not to put another out or make them feel awkward.

Every single meal which came to my room had "no meat" on the card...and yet every single time some cut up animal was upon my plate...and other things such as gelatin...which I do understand the cafeteria was not understanding of the grip which animal products have our diets in.

Every single time that meal came to my room a lesson occured for me. As if Karma itself was saying...."So Lanie....how committed are you?"

Everytime I sent the meal away. So awkward to do this for countless of nurses as the shift was always changed and the nurse new to me.

There is a level of boldness...."Yes, this path is correct and I can not hide it any longer...even if this makes me look SO derned crazy to everyone around me."

Or maybe it's just loss of concern what this exterior realm will do to us. Or both...probably both of those things and a thousand more.

E.M. is one of those bright souls who has been so long upon this road that to him it's not even an issue...he is what he is.

But, for some of us hiding in the ambiguity of the ignorance of the ones around us...to finally strike the step full out in front of the community. It's where discipline comes in heavily.

I am who I am...though I may come home and cringe all evening for the awkward moments this silly girl still yearns so desperately to avoid.

It's a work in progress, and the rudder is hard to steer in such muddy shallows. I keep my eyes to the horizon and steer towards deeper waters.


Time is always on our side.

yajvan
13 October 2011, 10:36 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

having meat arrive on a plate ( for me ) would be no different then looking at a bucket of bolts to feed on. Yet there are some people that still eat bolts :) . This happened to me on many occasions. Yet what is one to do ? For me, I just left it alone and ate the things on the plate most agreeable to me.


http://www.twiv.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/bucket_bolts.jpg

praṇām

NayaSurya
13 October 2011, 10:42 AM
lol this would be true if it weren't for the fact in kentucky...the meat is not alone!:p

Everything on the plate is smothered in the gravy of the animal.

Chicken pot pie meal 1 (plate of chicken in clear gravy and vegetables covered in biscuit crust.)
Roastbeef and gravy on top of buttered toast was meal 2
chicken fried steak in sawmill gravy meal 3
Cheeseburger and steak fries meal 4 (the fries undoubtably fried in the same place as the burgers)

on and on....:rolleyes:

even the green beans here are filled with ham pieces or bacon.

Mana
13 October 2011, 10:53 AM
Namasté All

I have been saying for years that I will go to school when I am grown up enough. However; within my disorganised nature there seems to be some rhyme.

I lacked any mentor as a youth, consequently I have much catching up to do in this regard; I see fully the benefit of discipline and am slowly turning this ship, yet the momentum makes the helm and the turn very heavy.

I often wonder as to the effect and inspiration of an Ashram for this purpose. Yet I have been told that one must have discipline (Money seems to be required also) before entering. Kind of a catch 22 situation.
The presence of the sadguru, with whom there is a resonance, being of the essence.

I know that this is not an easy balance to strike.

That said, the tune to which I dance seems to lead me down a merry path, I put my faith in God, my heart, and wisdom for that.

praNAma

mana

Mana
13 October 2011, 11:07 AM
Namasté NayaSurya

A pleasure to read your posts, nice to see you posting :)

yajavan, those bolts don't look appetising at all, not even the shiny ones!
The only edible thing would be soup after that lot!

praNAma

mana

Mana
13 October 2011, 11:22 AM
Namaste Eastern Mind, saidevo,

I would say that although I am not particularly disciplined, I have adopted yama and Niyama, fairly naturally as it is the only thing which stops the rolling of the boat, and keeps me sane. I do need to work on keeping quiet ...

Sadhana is a spontaneous thing for me, although, I see now that where it arrives spontaneously and rides me, I can turn this into my horse rather than being ridden, by practising sadhana regularly; smoothly as it were.

I play the guitar to meditate, although I pass long periods without doing this, when I do, I can become engrossed in it; passing up to 4 hours or more without breaking. I do need to work on this, again I am trying to make it so.

Getting the reigns on this horse is not easy; I might add that, this is with all of your help; that I am coming about!

praNAma

mana

Ganeshprasad
13 October 2011, 12:06 PM
Pranam

to use the old adage, practice make perfect, seemingly difficult task can only be achieved through total dedication.

Arjun having heard the Lord describe the practice of yoga, describes it as difficult as catching the wind.

Arjuna said: O Krishna, You have said that yoga of meditation is characterized by the equanimity (of mind), but, due to restlessness of mind I do not perceive the steady state of mind. (6.33)

Because the mind, indeed, is very unsteady, turbulent, powerful, and obstinate, O Krishna. I think restraining the mind is as difficult as restraining the wind. (6.34)

The Supreme Lord said: Undoubtedly, O Arjuna, the mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by Abhyaasa (or constant vigorous spiritual practice with perseverance), and Vairaagya (or detachment), O Arjuna. (6.35)

One whose mind is not subdued yoga is difficult.But he whose mind is controlled and who strives by right means is assured of success.That is my opinion (6.36)

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
13 October 2011, 01:47 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I play the guitar to meditate
The vijῆāna bhairava tantra talks of this. Consider sutra or kārikā 73 and 41 that relates to music. See this post if there is interest:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=19415&postcount=10

praṇām

Eastern Mind
14 October 2011, 05:42 PM
lol this would be true if it weren't for the fact in kentucky...the meat is not alone!:p

Everything on the plate is smothered in the gravy of the animal.

Chicken pot pie meal 1 (plate of chicken in clear gravy and vegetables covered in biscuit crust.)
Roastbeef and gravy on top of buttered toast was meal 2
chicken fried steak in sawmill gravy meal 3
Cheeseburger and steak fries meal 4 (the fries undoubtably fried in the same place as the burgers)

on and on....:rolleyes:

even the green beans here are filled with ham pieces or bacon.

Vannakkam: I think Canada is more open and catering to vegetarians. Not sure why. But ask about the bacon bits. Cheaper ones are the fake ones. The more we ask, the more things change. I'm in Winnipeg at my daughter's house and we just ordered gluten free pizza. So there is flexibility hera nad there. You just haver to know where to look.

Aum Namasivaya

Arjuni
14 October 2011, 06:47 PM
Namasté,

Not to derail the conversation completely, but EM: gluten-free pizza?? Who in Winnipeg offers this? There are days when my apartment mailbox seems to exist solely to collect coupons and flyers from pizza joints, yet I certainly did not get the memo about gluten-free choices.

NayaSurya, your post made me laugh, because you've described old-school Louisiana "vegetables" as well. Nowadays, it's less meat and more cream and cheese; we sometimes joke that the way to make anything "Cajun" is to cover it in pepper and then burn it, and to create "Creole" food, just smother it in cheese, cream, and butter.

Back to the actual point of this post, which is discipline, hence that I'm not currently eating any of these luscious foods I describe. :)

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

Mana
14 October 2011, 07:29 PM
Namasté yajvan

Ahhh, pertaining to music my interest waver only for vibrato, such an incredible knowledge of scripture; Thank you.

praNAma

mana

arjunah
24 October 2011, 06:25 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I am very happy you posted this. I'd like to see the responses from the HDF community.
I see discipline as self-control, as yama. More can be said later on this matter as others post their ideas.

Yet one way of building this discipline ( that I have found) is asking yourself a simple question: Look at your behaviors, look at your goals. Does your behavior (actions) match your goals ? What a simple ~test~ of alignment! It is by aligning ones behaviors to one's goals that offers self-control; your intent ( not your whims) is the driver.
One is not thrown off track by distractions. It is the distractions , and the chasing thereof, that keeps one undisciplined. Discipline ( to me) does not mean being rigid; it is all about remaining one-pointed.

praṇām


Pranam

to use the old adage, practice make perfect, seemingly difficult task can only be achieved through total dedication.

Arjun having heard the Lord describe the practice of yoga, describes it as difficult as catching the wind.

Arjuna said: O Krishna, You have said that yoga of meditation is characterized by the equanimity (of mind), but, due to restlessness of mind I do not perceive the steady state of mind. (6.33)

Because the mind, indeed, is very unsteady, turbulent, powerful, and obstinate, O Krishna. I think restraining the mind is as difficult as restraining the wind. (6.34)

The Supreme Lord said: Undoubtedly, O Arjuna, the mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by Abhyaasa (or constant vigorous spiritual practice with perseverance), and Vairaagya (or detachment), O Arjuna. (6.35)

One whose mind is not subdued yoga is difficult.But he whose mind is controlled and who strives by right means is assured of success.That is my opinion (6.36)

Jai Shree Krishna

I consider myself a weak minded person. Ever since birth I have been a quitter. I have never put my whole soul into any sort of work and always take the easy way out.

I will say to myself, 'tomorrow I will be different', but tomorrow comes and I do not change.

How else can I garner self discipline? Any more advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you

devotee
24 October 2011, 11:12 PM
Namaste Arjunah,


I consider myself a weak minded person. Ever since birth I have been a quitter. I have never put my whole soul into any sort of work and always take the easy way out.

I will say to myself, 'tomorrow I will be different', but tomorrow comes and I do not change.

How else can I garner self discipline? Any more advice would be much appreciated.


1. You must stop believing that you are a weak-minded person. You become what you think of yourself. Please remember the "you" within yourself is nothing but bundle of thoughts. So, thoughts must not be taken lightly. Your thoughts decide your successes and also failures to a great extent.

The essence of you is omnipotent ... layers of thoughts have made you a person with limited capability. It is your thoughts which is the primary cause of your present body-mind entity. Every thread of thought is important. How to stop the cycles of negative thinking ? There is no easy way. You have to keep reminding yourself what you essentially are & that no limitations can ever bind you. In spite of that such thoughts would spontaneously arise in your mind ... because the mind has deep impressions created over many lives (may be) which keep generating such thoughts. If such thoughts arise in your mind ... be a witness to such thoughts. They are arising within the body-mind entity but not in the untainted omnipotent Self that you are. Don't take the ownership of these thoughts. Thoughts which are disowned by you cannot do any harm to you.

2. Assess your present situation. Don't make a promise to yourself which is difficult to fulfill. Start with simple promises/vows towards disciplining yourself.
Once the promise is made it must be fulfilled. It is better not to make a promise than make one and not respect that. Remember, not respecting your own decisions weakens your spiritual strength. It is better to allow some deviations in exceptional circumstances to take care of difficult situation when you can't adhere to the discipline. That way you will have some freedom to take liberty in certain situations. It is ok, if you are 90 % of the time successful in keeping your daily routine etc.

3. Notwithstanding to whatever I said above, all types of addictions must be left once for all if one wants to get rid of that addiction. No allowance of breaking rules should be permitted when it come to dropping an addiction. The only way to leave an addiction is "PratyAhAr" meaning you should not even entertain the thoughts of objects to which you are addicted and you want to get rid of.

4. Every success increases your self-esteem ... & every failure undermines your self-esteem. So, make sure to be successful.

5. If for any reason you fail in a certain situation ... don't make an issue out of it & keep cursing yourself. The damage is already done. Forgive yourself after some reasonable punishment and do an analysis why you failed and what measures should be taken not to repeat the failures. Remember your successes and tell yourself that You Are Going To Succeed ... such stray failures can't deter you.

Follow the above guidelines ... there is nothing which can stop you from succeeding. Good Luck ! :)

OM

Mana
25 October 2011, 02:52 AM
Namaste arjunah

You have some very wise words there, from devotee.
If I might add a few thoughts to the wisdom of this thread.

Could it be that you are strong hearted, and that your heart is overriding your mind, pulling you into another direction? It is your ego which leaves you thinking and feeling that you are week minded, because it is losing its grasp on you; this is good, at least can be a good time for renouncing the things in life which are causing us pain.

The underlying vibration which drives these thoughts is in your heart, it is that; it is OM, which you must learn to hear and nurture. Your actions will seem so much better directed once you understand from where these thoughts are coming.

Quitter, who taught you that word arjunah?

Thank you for bringing my attention to this thread, I have some reading to do, which I had forgotten about. There, that is Karma in action already.

I am an emotional learner, only able to work towards goals when my emotions allow for it, often fairly disorganised. Yoga is a way to take the reigns and yoke theses beasts, which are our emotional senses and our ego and guide them to our future, allowing you to devote your time to better practise, and dare I say it; a better future.


praNAma

mana

Eastern Mind
25 October 2011, 09:10 AM
I consider myself a weak minded person. Ever since birth I have been a quitter. I have never put my whole soul into any sort of work and always take the easy way out.

I will say to myself, 'tomorrow I will be different', but tomorrow comes and I do not change.

How else can I garner self discipline? Any more advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you

Vannakkam Arjunah: You are most likely not as weak minded as you might think. Sometimes a strong willed person perceives themselves as weak, and a weak-minded person perceives themselves as strong. The mirror isn't necessarily the best judge. So the whole issue of looking at oneself is complicated.

Once upon a time, I had the privilege of coaching a pretty decent high jumper. He would repeat the same story day after day. We'd go out, and slowly the bar would go up. Eventually he'd miss, and the anger at himself would begin. With each miss, it would get worse. I used to say, "Mike, do you think you can jump over the moon?"

In contrast to a younger child, Mike was mad. The younger child was so very happy that he got over the bar at all, at any level. Now, the main point here is that :No matter what level you are at, you can view it as a success or a failure.

So it is with self-discipline. Look at the things you CAN do, not the things you CAN"T do. But this has to be realistic. There is this false positivity run rampant in psychological circles and positive thinking con men these days. Statements like, "You can be anything you want to be as long as you try hard." This is a blatantly false statement. No smart person should ever buy into things like that. It's not true.

I recall my superiour, a superintendent of schools, coming in to a staff meeting one day, and staring a few teachers down with the statement, "Their (referring to the students) best HAD BETTER be good enough for you."

Devotee has given you excellent advice. Mine would be to look at yourself, and what you've accomplished so far. You're on this forum asking questions, aren't you? That in itself is a great accomplishment.

The other factor is the idea that we see the temporal as permanent. Some days we are in 'loser' mode, and other days we are in 'winner' mode. Awareness moves hither-thither. Perhaps you're just on one of those 'lower' days.

Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
25 October 2011, 09:58 AM
I think the biggest disciplinary struggle I have is fulfilling what Sri Krishna says in B.G. 12.13-15 (the bolded passages):

"One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me—such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me."

"He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and anxiety, is very dear to Me."

Without sounding arrogant, I envy no one. Occasionally I find myself judging others and thinking I am better, however. The biggest problem is disciplining myself to remain equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and anxiety. As I have general anxiety disorder (clinically diagnosed), I find myself finding it very hard to remain calm and balanced in a distressing or fear-inducing situation.

That's when I especially need to focus on Krishna's help, love and grace. I suppose we all have our disciplinary failings.

Jainarayan
25 October 2011, 10:20 AM
Namaste to all.


I consider myself a weak minded person. Ever since birth I have been a quitter. I have never put my whole soul into any sort of work and always take the easy way out.

I will say to myself, 'tomorrow I will be different', but tomorrow comes and I do not change.



Rather than thinking you are weak-minded, perhaps it is a matter of simply seeking your own level, as water does.

I tormented myself for the longest time (aw, I still do) over reaching too high because "I had to" and not being able to reach it.

Case in point: guitar playing. When I started learning to play I wanted to learn all there is to learn. Steve Vai, Slash, Jimi Hendrix... all "shredders". Hey, I gotta learn that because everyone does, but I didn't want to. Conflict! Something's wrong with me.

I wanted to play just about every song I've ever liked, from The Beatles to Warren Zevon. But some songs were just not doable. Conflict!

Ohmigosh, I'm stupid, I'm lazy, I don't want to learn pentatonic scales but I have to because everyone does! Conflict! :rolleyes:

It took me a long time to realize I'm a "lazy" guitar player; not a bad one (hearing me play would make that last statement a bold-faced lie :Roll:), just lazy and proud of it. Why lazy? Lazy relative to other players, but I play what I want to play. I'm just a cowboy-chords rhythm player, and that's what's most fun to me. Conflict resolved. Call me Water because I found my own level. Yet relative to other players, I'm a kick-butt player, and because I taught myself chords and keys theory.

OK, I could have probably said all that by saying "if you think you're weak-minded, are you comparing yourself to some standard or someone, something else? Don't do that!". But we know I couldn't be that concise. :o


Namaste Arjunah,

1. You must stop believing that you are a weak-minded person. You become what you think of yourself. ...

4. Every success increases your self-esteem ... & every failure undermines your self-esteem. So, make sure to be successful.

5. If for any reason you fail in a certain situation ... don't make an issue out of it & keep cursing yourself.

:goodpost: It takes a long time to let this sink into our heads. The mind is like its own tape recorder. It records and keeps whatever you tell it.

yajvan
25 October 2011, 11:27 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




Ever since birth I have been a quitter.

Perhaps you can use this to your advantage ? The ultimate quitting is giving up on the world of ignorance. Quit the world of the ego. Many are trying to do this daily - dispassion to the world at large is the spiritual path. Yet one must realize this is different then laziness.

praṇām

Jainarayan
25 October 2011, 11:33 AM
Namaste.

You give more wise words. ;)

I was just telling someone this sort of thing. And it goes back to the verses from Gita I posted.

There is a person whom we deal with, who causes much agitation. I said we just have to realize it is what it is. It will never change, not in this lifetime. We have to take deep breaths and detach ourselves from it.



hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté




Perhaps you can use this to your advantage ? The ultimate quitting is giving up on the world of ignorance. Quit the world of the ego. Many are trying to do this daily - dispassion to the world at large is the soiritual path. Yet one must realize this is different then laziness.

praṇām

Eastern Mind
25 October 2011, 12:43 PM
Namasté,

Not to derail the conversation completely, but EM: gluten-free pizza?? Who in Winnipeg offers this?

Vannakkam: It was called pizza pizza somewhere west on Portage.

Aum Namasivaya