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Sudarshan
08 January 2007, 06:00 AM
Proof that the Semitic God is logically untenable - apllies primarily to the Gods of mainstream Islam and Christianity.


Islam/Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox. If God is omniscent then even before we are born, God would be knowledgeable of every thought and action we make. Any apparent freewill we exercise regarding the acceptance or denial of God is predetermined.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know the future and God would be forced to be anxious as to whether his creation would accept him or reject him. If God is of really loving nature, he would be really depressed that many people may reject him.

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of God, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This is unjust and evil. If all God wanted was some fun, there was no need to create two sets of people.


If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. God is not impartial and graceful in this case and is therefore not worth any worship.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient . If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities the Semitic God ceases to exist. Thus the Semitic God is not omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent - Godhead has disappeared.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to accept God or not becomes total nonsense since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of a God, which is actually the case. So these religions have to either cling on their freewill, or give up the claim that their God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Note:

The above fallacy is not present in the Hindu school of Dvaita because God never created the soul. The soul is eternal and has an intrinsic nature of good or bad for which God is not responsible. Thus God remains both omniscient and fair, inspite of the ideas of damnation.

satay
19 July 2007, 01:42 PM
Sudarshan, Where are you?

Haridas
19 November 2007, 03:24 PM
Proof that the Semitic God is logically untenable - apllies primarily to the Gods of mainstream Islam and Christianity.


Islam/Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox. If God is omniscent then even before we are born, God would be knowledgeable of every thought and action we make. Any apparent freewill we exercise regarding the acceptance or denial of God is predetermined.

....


The Qur'an accepts the idea of predestination - to the loathing of Christian missionaries. The Qur'an says that Allah has already predetermined who will accept him and so it is saying that a human in reality has no free will (though it seems like it).

John Calvin of Christianity also had this idea of predestination though he came long after the Qur'an was written.

ScottMalaysia
02 December 2007, 12:19 AM
Just because God knows who will (supposedly) go to heaven and who will go to hell doesn't mean that He determines who will be saved and who will be damned. He has given people free will to choose which path to follow. He knows the outcome, but He doesn't interfere with people's choice.

I don't agree with the idea of an eternal hell just for not following one particular religion. Does that seem fair?

A Muslim guy told me that this life is like an examination, and your actions are the answers that you write on the paper. If you write more good answers (do more good actions) then you will go to heaven. But you only get one chance, according to him. I like the Hindu system where, if you blow your first chance, you get as many chances as you need to pass.

caleb
22 May 2008, 05:29 AM
Proof that the Semitic God is logically untenable - apllies primarily to the Gods of mainstream Islam and Christianity.


Islam/Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox. If God is omniscent then even before we are born, God would be knowledgeable of every thought and action we make. Any apparent freewill we exercise regarding the acceptance or denial of God is predetermined.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know the future and God would be forced to be anxious as to whether his creation would accept him or reject him. If God is of really loving nature, he would be really depressed that many people may reject him.

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of God, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This is unjust and evil. If all God wanted was some fun, there was no need to create two sets of people.


If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. God is not impartial and graceful in this case and is therefore not worth any worship.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient . If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities the Semitic God ceases to exist. Thus the Semitic God is not omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent - Godhead has disappeared.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to accept God or not becomes total nonsense since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of a God, which is actually the case. So these religions have to either cling on their freewill, or give up the claim that their God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Note:

The above fallacy is not present in the Hindu school of Dvaita because God never created the soul. The soul is eternal and has an intrinsic nature of good or bad for which God is not responsible. Thus God remains both omniscient and fair, inspite of the ideas of damnation.

They say that God knows all as One, is not in time but Eternity. For God to be omniscient does not mean that he makes the specific choice of the individual. It is omnipotence that they usually run up against free will. They have many and varied solutions. But if you sin, you must reap the results, this is the law and God will bring you the results of you action rather than make a different world where we aren't free to choose or the law of nature doesn't exist, nothing you do leads to appropriate results. One might say that you can't free in such a world.

But do all Dvaita believe that? It seems that the Semitic theists are close to dvaita except it is absurd to them that anything could not be caused by god.

It seems just as impossible to me that anything could be not-god and merely a creature, but that is essential to them.

yajvan
22 May 2008, 08:25 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


They say that God knows all as One, is not in time but Eternity. For God to be omniscient does not mean that he makes the specific choice of the individual. It is omnipotence that they usually run up against free will.

Namaste caleb,
I have given this some thought, this omniscience... If you have the time and care to read this post, I offer a POV:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2363&highlight=omniscience

pranams

rainycity
12 November 2009, 05:50 AM
Islam/Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox. If God is omniscent then even before we are born, God would be knowledgeable of every thought and action we make. Any apparent freewill we exercise regarding the acceptance or denial of God is predetermined.


If God is an eternal, infinite being, he/she/it would not be like a person with the ability to see into the future, but he/she/it would be outside time altogether. Meaning there would be no past or future for God, everything would be experienced as one moment. This doesn't negate free will, like scottmalaysia said, it would be like knowing the outcome, but not being the decider of the outcome - this is as close as we can come to understanding it, like the idea of a being outside of time experiencing everything as one moment, because we can't understand an infinite being.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hindus also claim a God who is omniscient, and also the free will of human beings.
To me the logical fallacy of the 'semitic god' is that he is effected by what humans do and experiences emotions, but is also eternal and infinite.