Our body and our mental relation with it.

[Adhvagat]

I'm not sure this is the right forum to pose this question, but it's just something that confuses me a lot.

In this neverending battle between spiritualists and materialists (which can be seen archetypically as a battle between light and darkness, or devas and asuras - distancing ourselves from a moral understanding of both) I cannot stop considering this:

Let's take our brain for example, since it's our most used organ in life, be it through intellectual debate or emotional life, from a reductionist materialistic point of view, my brain is just chemicals and neurons interacting. However, if that's what my brain is and that makes up my mind, why am I not aware of "neuron X, communicate with neuron Y"? Isn't that my mind? If I can access a memory, why can't I access what they say my memory really is?

So we come to a point, I think in my poor thinking process, that the mind cannot be reduced to the brain. However, if you take the brain out of a person, the body becomes a rotting shell. But there are also cases where a significant part of the brain is lost and the person is not affected, perhaps taking away 250 petals from a 1000 petal lotus still makes for a great unique flower. :)

The dependancy we have on the biological however, also takes away the absolute crown from the subtle and the unseen. It's a very thin line we walk and perhaps the best thing we can do is giving due credit to both sides of manifestation.

Let me also add some not-so-disconnected thougts, the first one was Alan Watts mentioning how it is amazing that we need not know how the body works to live, just like we can use a machine not designed by us, this must point that the intelligence of the universe is infinitely higher than ours.

The second was a quotation from a neuroscientist my teacher used on his class of pyschogenesis vs. neurogensis of mental illnesses, this scientist observed how memory was not in the neuron itself, but in the relation between neurons. And his overall conclusion was that the idea of the biological presenting a deterministic, reductionist understanding of life is also old, since with modern research we look at it and all we find is more mysteries. But I need to get these quotations from my teacher, I'll add them here later on.

Anyway guys, these are just my sincere doubts, sorry if they are dumb or shallow, but that's what I can't understand right now.

[sm78]

Yes consciousness can be mapped into/reduced to biology and neurology, and experience (even out of body, ghost seeing and such stuff) can be explained at the level of the brain. Hasn't the hatha yogi's and tantrik's done it already with all the centers in spine and brain? What neuroscience are trying to do is just a modern effort of the same, maybe a much more sophisticated effort by the look of it.

But the whole consciousness thing is still chicken before eggs or egg before chicken question. What we call objective reality which science can test is still a subjective experience, but a collective one - can it in any way contradict another subjective experience at another level, just because it is not collective?

Finally, body, nerves, cells is consciousness ;)

But most importantly if science can redefine our existential questions, answer them more effectively at the expense of contradicting or destroying our cherished "spiritual" ideals - I will be fine. Everybody should train themselves to be fine for that eventuality, otherwise you are just carrying dead weight of dogma.

[sm78]

this scientist observed how memory was not in the neuron itself, but in the relation between neurons.

Interesting and makes sense. A Buddhist will be more happy, but nonetheless.

[Mana]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo,

I'm not sure that your analogy is correct as to light and darkness toward materialists and spiritualists; There is light and darkness in both materialism and spiritualism. To see this as a black and white affair is a somewhat dual view, an easy state of thought to slide into yet not a very productive one.

I should stipulate that our heart and lungs get more use than our brains, that our brains are driven afterwards, by prana which starts by entering our body as breath. So from the mind we can detach a little sometimes and it does us no harm at all, au contraire :)

The view of neuro science is founded heavily in physical theory, based in extremely complexed models derived from maths and not biological material; as we are often lead to believe. It is interesting, as sm78 has already heighlighted, we have tantric models of the neuro endocrine system which have been derived from inner reflection, which are to my mind, much more advanced than the western model, which is still only just realising the wisdom of this ancient science of thought and feeling.

We must be careful when we speak of "our" memory's as neuro epigenetic would suggest that memory's are transferred somehow between generations via some as yet unexplained processes. So the traditional material view that science holds is now crumbling failing.
Yes it is a fine line, a fine line between the concious act and the subconscious deed.

If we do not respect the material nature of our body's we can not expect to have a balanced mind either as all is interconnected as one. A calm steady mind is reflected upon the physical body in ways which are extremely good for the biological body of both the practitioner and those that they interact social.

Again it is all about the balance.

There is no problem with having doubts, they keep us in check somewhat, this is the perfect place to voice them.

I wish you well Pietro, I hope that your doubt subsides to reveal new and greater glories. Some times the tide washes up the most beautiful realisations.


praNAma

mana

[Adhvagat]

Yes consciousness can be mapped into/reduced to biology and neurology, and experience (even out of body, ghost seeing and such stuff) can be explained at the level of the brain. Hasn't the hatha yogi's and tantrik's done it already with all the centers in spine and brain? What neuroscience are trying to do is just a modern effort of the same, maybe a much more sophisticated effort by the look of it.

But the whole consciousness thing is still chicken before eggs or egg before chicken question. What we call objective reality which science can test is still a subjective experience, but a collective one - can it in any way contradict another subjective experience at another level, just because it is not collective?

Finally, body, nerves, cells is consciousness ;)

But most importantly if science can redefine our existential questions, answer them more effectively at the expense of contradicting or destroying our cherished "spiritual" ideals - I will be fine. Everybody should train themselves to be fine for that eventuality, otherwise you are just carrying dead weight of dogma.

SM, what do you say about the events that contradicts consciousness as contained in the biological body? I'm not posing this question trying to disprove any biological approach, but I think these unusual events must be taken into account, like dreaming aboutthe future (even if it's your next day - it happens constantly with me), premonitory dreams or near-death and out of body experiences when people report they witnessed what they could never witness with their body.

Chicken/eggs indeed and isn't the great problem the very terms we use to define what's matter and what's spiritual? If we are pure consciousness (spiritual) witnessing matter, what's the difference between consciousness and matter? They are both interacting directly! As Alan Watts observe "there's no such thing as matter", if matter, looking very closely is nothing but hollow particles pretending to be something in a supra-binary code/combination, is that really matter? That's maya! It's not as solid as it seems to be when we contrast it with the spirit, the subtle. The concept of prakrti as a whole is much more advanced concept and encompasses both subtle and gross aspects of nature.

Regarding your last paragraph, why should science destroy cherished spiritual ideals, specially those very valuable from the metaphysics of Hinduism, those are extremely valid psychological observations about our nature, so why not build on top of it.

This to me seems like the hybris that held back both science and religion (in the sense of self-realization), one trying to destroy another. Why not one help one another? To me it seems the moral boogeyman aspect of religion is what is not necessary anymore but Hinduism is much more than this even though it still suffers from it, like every other religious line.

And this hybris works both ways, so called rational minded scientists ignore the blatant occurence of unusual events that cannot be explained by a model of consciousness that is completely contained within the biological while spiritualists try to deny and denigrate matter as something they are not. Both are ignorant stances, they are just flowing in opposite directions.


Interesting and makes sense. A Buddhist will be more happy, but nonetheless.

Why do you say so? Don't you think this goes in line with Hinduism?


Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo,

I'm not sure that your analogy is correct as to light and darkness toward materialists and spiritualists; There is light and darkness in both materialism and spiritualism. To see this as a black and white affair is a somewhat dual view, an easy state of thought to slide into yet not a very productive one.

I should stipulate that our heart and lungs get more use than our brains, that our brains are driven afterwards, by prana which starts by entering our body as breath. So from the mind we can detach a little sometimes and it does us no harm at all, au contraire :)

The view of neuro science is founded heavily in physical theory, based in extremely complexed models derived from maths and not biological material; as we are often lead to believe. It is interesting, as sm78 has already heighlighted, we have tantric models of the neuro endocrine system which have been derived from inner reflection, which are to my mind, much more advanced than the western model, which is still only just realising the wisdom of this ancient science of thought and feeling.

We must be careful when we speak of "our" memory's as neuro epigenetic would suggest that memory's are transferred somehow between generations via some as yet unexplained processes. So the traditional material view that science holds is now crumbling failing.
Yes it is a fine line, a fine line between the concious act and the subconscious deed.

If we do not respect the material nature of our body's we can not expect to have a balanced mind either as all is interconnected as one. A calm steady mind is reflected upon the physical body in ways which are extremely good for the biological body of both the practitioner and those that they interact social.

Again it is all about the balance.

There is no problem with having doubts, they keep us in check somewhat, this is the perfect place to voice them.

I wish you well Pietro, I hope that your doubt subsides to reveal new and greater glories. Some times the tide washes up the most beautiful realisations.


praNAma

mana

Mana, I was giving an example of enantiodromia, of the need for people to grab each end of a spectrum when discussing things, the need for the world to be black and white. That's why we see endless silly fights between materialists and spiritualists, when they are arguing about the same thing, which is existence itself.

This issue of belonging, does my mind belong to me? Perhaps just as much as my body. While this speck of consciousness is experiencing it, perhaps I can say so.

Consciousness, unconsciousness, even analyzing the whole of the psychic life, I still cannot stop questioning: Awareness is above these! Which is pure being that transcends these two aspects.

However, unconsciousness poses a great dillema (in my view) to awareness, because we cannot recall our direct experience of it, it's like an advaitic non-experience where we fuse into a whole and when our awareness returns to the ego, we recall certain events of this former state.

[smaranam]

Namaste

Of course PrakRti and Purusha go hand-in-hand and cannot be seperately viewed. Sanatan Dharma never denies prakRti. It advocates getting rid of vikAr (flaws) and vyAdhi.

What it says is that PrakRti is totally dependant on paramAtmA. Only paramAtmA, BhagvAn, GOD, is Absolutely Independant.
When the-products-of-prakRti think they are independant that is the illusion.

Brain is the medium for paramAtmA to facilitate sentience in us. If brain is removed, why should paramAtmA simply hang out in the broken body ? To make it dance ?
It does not prove that brain/nervous system is the be-all end-all - as in examples given above like intuition given by Supersoul (paramAtmA).

PrakRti comes in layers : internal potency of paramAtmA, external potency of paramAtmA (creative energy), in-between sUkshma (subtle) prakRti
and sthUla (gross) prakRti.

PrakRti Herself, the source of created Universe, is what we call the unmanifest (but is about to manifest OR has the potential to manifest). She has a source, and that is paramAtmA , Uttam Purush (Purushottam) You-Know-WHO.

JivAtmA are that rarefied form of highest [avyakta] prakRti seen thru' kAraN sharIr (causal body) at its max efficiency (on Anandmay kosha), that interacts with paramAtmA, Supersoul. There is a thin layer of jiva prakRti in her purest form around the innermost core of paramAtmA.

Not all scientists are atheists and not all spiritual people turn their back on science and scientists.

There are no boogeymen in Sanatan Dharma.

On the contrary, real spiritual life thrives only and only on Pure Love, object of which can be none other than paramAtmA.

Because the jivAtmA loves paramAtmA they feel oneness with Him, see Him in the mirror, and see Him everywhere, all by His grace.
For this reason, the jivAtmA is the raremost/lightest layer of prakRti to sing the duet with Him. That is the purpose of her existence. When eyes are four...

So, Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjOEUluBjY) rather than think too much of neuroscience.

praNAm

[Mana]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo


Enantiodromia is typically experienced in conjunction with symptoms associated with acute neurosis, and often foreshadows a rebirth of the personality.Is it not the auto justification of this state, which keeps one confined within these limits. Acceptance of ones complete irrelevance allows for freedom from these confines; thus freedom from saMskAra.

Do we not seek to escape the cycle of rebirth?


praNAma

mana

AUM

[kallol]

The little that I understood, I will try to put up here.

The fact that during we are unaware of the body hapenning during deep focus, sleep, unconsciousness, etc point to the fact that there is something beyond the body. This enty, when it remains attached to body, interacts with external medium through the brains and thereafter through the body.
This entity is, as we know, is the mind. Just like a driver - driving the car or a kid using the computer, this mind is using the body.

Driver interacts with the outside world through accelerator, clutch, brake, light, wiper, etc., but does not know how they work inside. If driver is not there the car is useless.

The kid interacts through the monitor and keyboard. He does not understand what is going on in the CPU.

Similarly the mind is what translates the processing of the brain into something tangible and there by it takes decisions through iterative processing and finally acts through the action organs.

Just like the characteristics of the car is defined by its driver (not all cars, even of same model, behave similarly on roads). Simialrly the chracteristics of a body is defined by the mind. Put different minds in the same body, the body will act differently.

That is why a strong stress in Hinduism is on upliftment of the MIND. This is majorly to utilize the body system and subsystems better and more aligned to the higher nature.

Love and best wishes

[Adhvagat]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo

Is it not the auto justification of this state, which keeps one confined within these limits. Acceptance of ones complete irrelevance allows for freedom from these confines; thus freedom from saMskAra.

Do we not seek to escape the cycle of rebirth?


praNAma

mana

AUM

Enantiodromia is actually the natural state of the world. Life turns to death, joy turns to sorrow, light turns to darkness and so on. A positive state is bound to flow to a negative one and vice versa.


The little that I understood, I will try to put up here.

The fact that during we are unaware of the body hapenning during deep focus, sleep, unconsciousness, etc point to the fact that there is something beyond the body. This enty, when it remains attached to body, interacts with external medium through the brains and thereafter through the body.
This entity is, as we know, is the mind. Just like a driver - driving the car or a kid using the computer, this mind is using the body.

Driver interacts with the outside world through accelerator, clutch, brake, light, wiper, etc., but does not know how they work inside. If driver is not there the car is useless.

The kid interacts through the monitor and keyboard. He does not understand what is going on in the CPU.

Similarly the mind is what translates the processing of the brain into something tangible and there by it takes decisions through iterative processing and finally acts through the action organs.

Just like the characteristics of the car is defined by its driver (not all cars, even of same model, behave similarly on roads). Simialrly the chracteristics of a body is defined by the mind. Put different minds in the same body, the body will act differently.

That is why a strong stress in Hinduism is on upliftment of the MIND. This is majorly to utilize the body system and subsystems better and more aligned to the higher nature.

Love and best wishes

An important point in this matter is the psychosomatic nature of diseases. I'm a little appalled people do not realize how much their ailments are based on their very states of mind.

Considering a person is not exposed to unnecessary environmental influences and is a decent healthy being, there's no reason for many of diseases people develop, cancer being the most expressive of the examples.

It's also funny how Ayurveda already dealt extensively with the nature of the disease as an energetic imbalance that starts in the mind. That brings me to a point that SM touched in his first post. Hinduism should be looked upon as a great resource for understanding of life, even in this day and age of modern science, because western science is turning more and more towards understandings that were already offered in the ancient past but due to the inherent hybris that came with western science (and the western mindset that can't understand the eastern mindset correctly) they are only accepting or seeing more clearly now what the East had offered a long time ago.


But most importantly if science can redefine our existential questions, answer them more effectively at the expense of contradicting or destroying our cherished "spiritual" ideals - I will be fine. Everybody should train themselves to be fine for that eventuality, otherwise you are just carrying dead weight of dogma.

So in a more direct answer to SM now, I don't think it's reasonable to expect science to destroy cherished "spiritual" ideals, specially when western science is having great insights by looking at the East with a new perspective.

Since you mentioned the chakras, I'll post part of a C.A. Meier book where he discusses the localization of consciousness in our body and utilizes the observation of the chakras for a case study. C.A. Meier was a swiss psychitriast who advanced the works of Jung after its passing.

It's a very interesting read, so here it goes: www.unidadezero.com/pub/doc/consciousness

[kallol]

Much of the diseases (particularly the so called executive diseaeses), as you pointed out, are out of the unaligned body and mind.

Ofcourse just like not all cars of same model, do have same physical charateristics, all humans also have unique characteristics. Some are weak in stomach, some in knee, some in memory, etc.

The misuse of the body, wrecks the weak points. In trying to react to those regular nonfunctionig and through the usage of artificial means (allopathic treatments), the parts sometimes become malignant.

Yes you are right, we are yet to achieve the kind of knowledge the ancestors had about the body and mind relations.

We have only started to rediscover again.

Love and best wishes

[Mana]

Enantiodromia is actually the natural state of the world. Life turns to death, joy turns to sorrow, light turns to darkness and so on. A positive state is bound to flow to a negative one and vice versa.

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo,

Relative position is the key here.

From your perspective your statement may be true, but it is not true from my perspective.

Dynamic yet relative is the state of all, nothing moves outside of bhramaNa; moving in harmony with that dynamic crates a relative stillness. From my perspective all is still.

I have my sea legs! ;)

Does Life turn to death, or is that the ego? joy and sorrow are of the emotional imagination; the ego reacts to Karma.

Absence of direct light is shadow; absence of all reflected light is near impossible. What of heat? Any body radiating heat is actually emitting light.

We shall just have assume that we differ in perspective on this matter.

I do completely agree with you concerning our health and the nervous system.

praNAma

mana

[devotee]

Namaste Pietro, Mana, Kallol and Smaranam,

Good discussion. I have a question here which can guide us towards some more insights :

Our Consciousness which identifies itself different from every other thing around us shows up as "i" within this body-mind entity ... does it own the consciousness of all organs and cells within this body ... does it rule over the consciousness of all the organs ? Is there only one consciousness which is apparently owned by this "i" or there are many consciousnesses of different organs and the cells ?

OM

[wundermonk]

Is there only one consciousness which is apparently owned by this "i" or there are many consciousnesses of different organs and the cells ?

Namaste devotee:

The Nyaya Darshana contends with this question. The Nyaya offers the following argument to support its position that there is only one consciousness.

If there were MORE than one consciousness [for instance, different organs having their own independent consciousness] we ought to be aware of different sensations simultaneously. For instance, when I am drinking tea in the cold weather, I ought to be simultaneously aware of the taste and the weather.

The Nyaya claims this is not so. The Nyaya says that we only perceive things one at a time, albeit, this perception switches across different senses at lighting speed.

The analogy provided is that of a nail being driven through a bunch of pages. Only one page gets pierced at any time.

Although I do think science may have the answers to these questions on a later date...or maybe not.

[devotee]

Namaste WM,



The Nyaya Darshana contends with this question. The Nyaya offers the following argument to support its position that there is only one consciousness.

If there were MORE than one consciousness [for instance, different organs having their own independent consciousness] we ought to be aware of different sensations simultaneously. For instance, when I am drinking tea in the cold weather, I ought to be simultaneously aware of the taste and the weather.

The Nyaya claims this is not so. The Nyaya says that we only perceive things one at a time, albeit, this perception switches across different senses at lighting speed.

The analogy provided is that of a nail being driven through a bunch of pages. Only one page gets pierced at any time.

Although I do think science may have the answers to these questions on a later date...or maybe not.

That is what is to be thought deeply. Is there only one cogniser here who comes up as "i" in us ? What about the white blood cells ... how do they identify the foreign elements in the body if they have no power to cognise ? Why is this "i" not aware of it ... how is that cognizance without any help from the "i" ? Similarly, why the "i" is not aware of how the heart, lungs or kidneys etc function ? These organs keep doing their duty without waiting for any signal from "i" ?

Again, this "i" doesn't remain in the body always. It disappears when a person goes into deep sleep ? Where does it disappear ? ... and where from it arises again in the morning ? If "i" is everything what takes care of bodily functions when a person goes into Coma and there is no trace of "i" in the person ?

OM

[Mana]

Namaste devotee, All

Conciousness is one, but it is also a field. Bound by AkAza tattva, the white blood cells are impelled to act by the existence of the foreign elements. This happens deep within the boundary between prakRiti and puruSa, constrained by both kAla and kalA tattvas. mAyA would have us believe that they are separate entities, when all along they are us, both you and I.

We can see in the patterns created by x-ray crystallography, that each cell is inextricably linked by self similarity. Even at this level arises the familiar question, who is the doer?

Is this sadAsiva tattva, or I-ness in Thisness?

It is interesting to note that the element which forms the chemical base of life; along with the electrons of the electromagnetic field in which it is contained, is phosphorus; which by the process of luminescence, in a round about way reflects light.

You can't but help admire the beauty of the mechanics within which we are suspended.

praNAma

mana

[Adhvagat]

Namaste Pietro, Mana, Kallol and Smaranam,

Good discussion. I have a question here which can guide us towards some more insights :

Our Consciousness which identifies itself different from every other thing around us shows up as "i" within this body-mind entity ... does it own the consciousness of all organs and cells within this body ... does it rule over the consciousness of all the organs ? Is there only one consciousness which is apparently owned by this "i" or there are many consciousnesses of different organs and the cells ?

OM

I tend to the theory that a consciousness rules over all those other consciousness, every cell being a little separate from us to a certain extent (I'm not aware of every and each of my cells, I just control them).


Namaste devotee:

The Nyaya Darshana contends with this question. The Nyaya offers the following argument to support its position that there is only one consciousness.

If there were MORE than one consciousness [for instance, different organs having their own independent consciousness] we ought to be aware of different sensations simultaneously. For instance, when I am drinking tea in the cold weather, I ought to be simultaneously aware of the taste and the weather.

The Nyaya claims this is not so. The Nyaya says that we only perceive things one at a time, albeit, this perception switches across different senses at lighting speed.

The analogy provided is that of a nail being driven through a bunch of pages. Only one page gets pierced at any time.

Although I do think science may have the answers to these questions on a later date...or maybe not.

While I agree with the concept of our ego (focused but limited consciousness) being the only one when we are awake, notice how being awake is tiresome. It takes effort to focus consciousness like this and we need to get strength out of diving into the indifferentiation once again.

We can only perceive one thing at once (just like our eyes can only see perfectly one single spot) because of the limitation of that focused awareness.

That doesn't mean that a cell that can disconnect from my body and live on its own (for a certain amount of time), a cell that I'm not fully aware of, a whole complex machine that makes up for this big machine I'm in, isn't a separated consciousness.

I'm more with SM on this field, every cell, nerve, organ is consciousness.

What puts it all together? I tend to have more of a poetic view on this matter. I see a similarity between the way the solar system works and how our body complex works.

The sun is the original self, too much energy, but in our current position we cannot live it solely, it just arranges the whole of the system (our body, in this case) together and gives life to it. The Earth is our ego, is what is acceptable to us, all that is liveable and all that we can do in this life. Every other planet are there in an arrangement, because without them the orbits would not work, they would be our organs, fundamental to this current situation but we are not fully aware of them.

Perhaps gravity is nothing more than sheer desire. :)

[kallol]

Namaste Pietro, Mana, Kallol and Smaranam,

Good discussion. I have a question here which can guide us towards some more insights :

Our Consciousness which identifies itself different from every other thing around us shows up as "i" within this body-mind entity ... does it own the consciousness of all organs and cells within this body ... does it rule over the consciousness of all the organs ? Is there only one consciousness which is apparently owned by this "i" or there are many consciousnesses of different organs and the cells ?

OM

Dear Devoteeji,

Similar was my query when I put up the thread "Exploring I". Though my initial questions led to some diversion, the intention was put up in post 13.

I did some analysis after considering how the whole system is working right from Supreme Lord to the lowest ones.

If we study the system, I do not know your "I", or a plant's "I", or a cow's "I", etc. But we know for sure that each one has his own "I".

Next we see that we are all working towards the higher level or layers of the system.

Like the space for universe, universe for stars, stars for planets, planets for plants, plants for animals and final for human. then again human for society, society for country, country for world. This world full of Minds is working towards the cycle of creation. All layers are working towards the upper layer without knowing.

Each layer has characteristics and has Mind which is the culmination of the minds of the lower layer.

The supreme Lord's mind is the culmination of all minds.

Now the Body has Organs, then cells. The cells are working towards organs (without knowing) and organ towards body (again without knowing). Neither the higher layer is aware of how the lower layers are working. There are firewalls around each layers.

Thus if the Body "I" leaves, the purpose of lower layers are lost and they perish too.

The body and mind is influenced by the lower layers. Thus as Onkara pointed out, food has a lot influence on the built up of the mind.

Good topic for more discussions.

Love and best wishes

[smaranam]

Namaste Pietro, Mana, Kallol and Smaranam,

Good discussion. I have a question here which can guide us towards some more insights :

Our Consciousness which identifies itself different from every other thing around us shows up as "i" within this body-mind entity ... does it own the consciousness of all organs and cells within this body ... does it rule over the consciousness of all the organs ? Is there only one consciousness which is apparently owned by this "i" or there are many consciousnesses of different organs and the cells ?

OM

Namaste Devoteeji

One thing is for certain : "we" have a lot to learn from those cells, tissues, organs and body-systems (respiratory, cardiovascular etc.)

THEY can teach us how to surrender to the Supreme Lord rather than go on our own silly independent ventures.

"We" also have a lot to learn from our fingers who put food into the mouth so that the stomach is not hungry (serving VaishvAnara), rather than trying to get food for themselves.

THEY know how to march in step (perhaps because they are not smart), but WE do not know how to march in step with the Supreme Lord as we are "smart" so we "act smart".

We think we are independent, they don't.

WE the souls, jiva prakRti, jivAtmA, being the higher praKRti of the Supreme, and inherit from both Hladini and YogamAyA, misuse our independence. At least the lower prakRti is mechanical, automated and does not know any better.

To answer your question : The cells do not have any "i" as they are jad-prakRti (lower nature) and insentient, they are pre-programmed with if-then-else.
If virus attacks
reproduce white blood cells
fight

Jiva-prakRti, on the other hand, is the higher nature of the Lord, so sentience is given as a gift. Actual brain cells, neurons are lower prakRti, what makes it tick is the higher praKRti, and what makes both lower and higher PrakRti tick is paramAtmA.

"Not a blade of grass can move without Your Will O Lord"

_/\_

[smaranam]

To add...

We can say that the jiva PrakRti (higher nature of the Supreme), is like the end user input to the system. (Like mouse clicks and adding data). The user knows how to get results for only certain things - add info, move, walk etc.

S/He does not know how the entire system (of hardware and software) works - THAT is designed by the computer scientist-cum-innovator-cum-system-architect-cum-developer.

Ishvara paramah KRshNa
sacchidAnanda vigraha
anAdirAdir govindam
sarva kAraNa kAraNam
...
govindam Adi purusham tam aham bhajAmi ~

_/\_

P.S. Genetic engineering can only manage to get a copy of the jada prakRti (lower nature). A qualified jiva entering into it is an act of Providence.

[devotee]

Namaste Mana, Pietro, Kallol and Smaranam,



Conciousness is one, but it is also a field. Bound by AkAza tattva, the white blood cells are impelled to act by the existence of the foreign elements. This happens deep within the boundary between prakRiti and puruSa, constrained by both kAla and kalA tattvas. mAyA would have us believe that they are separate entities, when all along they are us, both you and I.

Dear Mana, I am unable to understand what you want to say. Let's forget about jargons of specific philosophies for a moment & try to explain first with the common words known to us. Your proposition is assuming presence of Prakriti, Purusha, KAla and KAla Tattva existing as separate entities ... it is not clear what is their specific role and how ?

Dear Pietro, you said :


I tend to the theory that a consciousness rules over all those other consciousness, every cell being a little separate from us to a certain extent (I'm not aware of every and each of my cells, I just control them).

Do you intend to say that there are infinite number of consciousnesses and there some "higher level of consciousnesses" which can control the "lower ones" ? This may be true in certain circumstances. However, do you really control all cells in the body ? I don't think it is possible ... unless you are a perfect Yogi. Please think over it again and offer your views again.

Dear Kallol,

Your post, imho, is the best response in this thread. Good thinking !! :)


Next we see that we are all working towards the higher level or layers of the system.


Like the space for universe, universe for stars, stars for planets, planets for plants, plants for animals and final for human. then again human for society, society for country, country for world. This world full of Minds is working towards the cycle of creation. All layers are working towards the upper layer without knowing.

That is very good insight. However, do you agree that though the individual consciousnesses are working in sync towards serving the higher layer of consciousness without even knowing each other or why they are doing it at all .... but there must be "something" which must be aware of & guiding all these ... otherwise "this happening" is simply impossible ? What is that ? Where is it located ? I mean what is the answer to this question :


Thus if the Body "I" leaves, the purpose of lower layers are lost and they perish too.

You have proposed that the lower layers are unaware of the higher layer for which they are working & also the higher layer is unaware that there are lower layers working for it. Now when the body of "i" dies ... who tells the organs and the cells that their purpose is over ? Or if there is some other agency managing all these ... how does it know ... where does it lie ?

You have not answered this question. Will you try answering this :


Again, this "i" doesn't remain in the body always. It disappears when a person goes into deep sleep ? Where does it disappear ? ... and where from it arises again in the morning ? If "i" is everything what takes care of bodily functions when a person goes into Coma and there is no trace of "i" in the person ?

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Smaranam,



To answer your question : The cells do not have any "i" as they are jad-prakRti (lower nature) and insentient, they are pre-programmed with if-then-else.
If virus attacks
reproduce white blood cells
fight

I think there is some difficulty here. If the cells don't have their own "i" then how can identify the virus different from themselves ? For cognising anything which is different from my "self" ... there has to be an 'i" of my own. The cells may be programmed but that doesn't make them bereft of an "i". ... we too are programmed in many ways ... we exhibit certain pre-programmed tendencies in given situations which we call "instinct". A Dog is trained in the "If ... else ..." situations and does exactly the way it is trained but it still has its "i". In fact, in order to identify that "an if clause has occurred positively" ... there must be an inbuilt consciousness.


Jiva-prakRti, on the other hand, is the higher nature of the Lord, so sentience is given as a gift. Actual brain cells, neurons are lower prakRti, what makes it tick is the higher praKRti, and what makes both lower and higher PrakRti tick is paramAtmA.

You have relied on use of jargons for explaining things which doesn't explain things. How are lower and higher prakritis different from each other ? What are their specific characteristics ? How it helps the cells to function within the body without any instructions from the 'i" which claims to own the body-mind ?


We can say that the jiva PrakRti (higher nature of the Supreme), is like the end user input to the system. (Like mouse clicks and adding data). The user knows how to get results for only certain things - add info, move, walk etc.

S/He does not know how the entire system (of hardware and software) works - THAT is designed by the computer scientist-cum-innovator-cum-system-architect-cum-developer.

Making God responsible for everything we don't understand is a simplistic way of understanding things, imho. I don't say that 'God' is not the ultimate cause ... but here we have to understand how God works. Does God tell the cells that a virus has attacked and be ready to attack ? Does God tell the cells the location of the virus too if it itself doesn't recognise the virus & its location ? That would be a little too much workload for God seeing the infinite number of activities at infinite number of places by infinite number of agents taking place every moment. I don't think this is what God said in Bhagwad Gita :

"Na Kartrittvam na karmANi lokasya srijati prabhuh, na karma-phala sanyogam svabhAvastu pravartate"

OM

[kallol]

Dear Devoteeji,

The questions are deep. I had done some analysis on these. However the analysis are subject to further discussion. However I should thank you first for bringing up these topics.

Please allow me to put forward my analysis.




Dear Kallol,

Your post, imho, is the best response in this thread. Good thinking !! :)


Next we see that we are all working towards the higher level or layers of the system.



That is very good insight. However, do you agree that though the individual consciousnesses are working in sync towards serving the higher layer of consciousness without even knowing each other or why they are doing it at all .... but there must be "something" which must be aware of & guiding all these ... otherwise "this happening" is simply impossible ? What is that ? Where is it located ? I mean what is the answer to this question :



I start from the point that in Advaitic philosophy, the knowledge of brahman is accepted as God. So there is no separate God as such.

If we understand the total system - what (is universe), why (is universe), how (does universe happen ) and when (does universe happen) then possibly we might be able to extend the same theory to all layers and levels of this system.

As a system, which is self sustained through the all permeating consciousness, which is the "driving force" for the system to manifest and unmanifest through various forms - it moves from permanent phase to temporary phases constantly like the waves of the ocean.

Now does the water molecules in the wave know why it is moving up or moving down or behaving the way it is ? In micro sense NO. But in macro sense we from outside see that the molecules are acting under gravity. It moves up but pulled back by gravity to the permanent level. Again it moves up. This goes on.

Extrapolate to all field - this same phenomenon of permanence to temporary to permanence happens - gravity, magnetism, electromagnetism, electricity, satya yuga to kali yuga to satya yuga, manifestation to unmanifestation, life to death to life, etc. - this phenomenon goes on.

So can I say that there is SOMEONE ? Or should I say that the whole system down to the basics is following the same rule ?

Can I say that the RULE is located somewhere ? Again if you analyse, only at the human level we have Learn, Sense, Plan, React and to some extent Know. The lower levels will have either React (non living beings) or Sense & React (plants), Learn, sense react & little or no plan (animals). Our body cells are mostly in second part i.e. sense & react. So they do not know what they do but they do to sustain, preserve or restore normal conditions. However if the body condition demands them over doing their part, they do but in turn damages the higher level.




You have proposed that the lower layers are unaware of the higher layer for which they are working & also the higher layer is unaware that there are lower layers working for it. Now when the body of "i" dies ... who tells the organs and the cells that their purpose is over ? Or if there is some other agency managing all these ... how does it know ... where does it lie ?



The body components do not die immediately. Say a power plant is producing power for a city. Then suddenly the city is not there. The power requirement becomes zero. So automatically when the load becomes zero, the plant stops once the capacitance or storage systems are full. This is an automatic process where the demand is created by higher layers to which the lower layer serves. If it serves badly, the corrective measures come in picture.



You have not answered this question. Will you try answering this :

Again, this "i" doesn't remain in the body always. It disappears when a person goes into deep sleep ? Where does it disappear ? ... and where from it arises again in the morning ? If "i" is everything what takes care of bodily functions when a person goes into Coma and there is no trace of "i" in the person ?
OM

"I" am there in dreams, in sleep, in unconsciousness, in coma, in meditation, grossly focused in something (book, TV, chess, gossip, etc). Yes it is not fully there in the body. But again the "I" is the reflection of consciousness through our mind. And it is the mind which is responsible for transmitting the consciousness throughout the body. It is the mind which moves in and out of body. If the body is functioning then the mind is there in the body however percentage it might be, otherwise the body will not act to external or internal stimuli. In Coma, it is the least. There is a threshold limit beyond which the mind does not come back. Where does it go ? Not sure but it is the world of our mind - dreams, thoughts, no thoughts, no dreams, etc.

Love and best wishes

[smaranam]

Namaste Smaranam,

I think there is some difficulty here. If the cells don't have their own "i" then how can identify the virus different from themselves ? For cognising anything which is different from my "self" ... there has to be an 'i" of my own. The cells may be programmed but that doesn't make them bereft of an "i". ... we too are programmed in many ways ... we exhibit certain pre-programmed tendencies in given situations which we call "instinct". A Dog is trained in the "If ... else ..." situations and does exactly the way it is trained but it still has its "i". In fact, in order to identify that "an if clause has occurred positively" ... there must be an inbuilt consciousness.

Namaste

Thanks for your inputs and taking the time to give us this exercise. Shall try to answer as much as possible.

Does the computer program or compiler have consciousness ? It can parse an "IF" clause. Then why did we ever bother with Artificial Intelligence ? That would imply simple text editor or payroll system has consciousness, the hardware chip has consciousness acc. to this.

The dog's or our involuntary reflex actions are pre-programmed in the lower reptilian brain area. That is not instinct, it is reflex. Instinct or hunch to take route A versus B when there is no logical reason processed, is given to jivAtmA (small i) by paramAtmA - Supersoul from within the heart. It happens all the time. "I don't know what made me turn into that lane but there lay my solution/it saved my life" - This is higher than subjective decision-support which is in turn higher than reflex and not pre-programmed.

Also, why does a cell taken out of the body stop functioning whereas an amoeba (which is one cell) lives out its life and reincarnates ? Because the jivAtmA-paramAtmA resides with amoeba - the organism, not with a cell removed in a test tube.


How are lower and higher prakritis different from each other ? What are their specific characteristics ? How it helps the cells to function within the body without any instructions from the 'i" which claims to own the body-mind ?

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.
BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.
BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

Instructions like "pot is hot, remove hand" are put on auto-pilot, pre-programmed by YogamAyA (avyakta prakRti) as devotional service to paramAtmA.


Making God responsible for everything we don't understand is a simplistic way of understanding things, imho. I don't say that 'God' is not the ultimate cause ... but here we have to understand how God works.

In the meantime we can adore Him and get to know His transcendental qualities (outside the mechanics of His material creation).
Most devotees would rather protect whatever little bhAv they attained by His grace and not let it turn into a shadow-bhAv. Others are free to pursue how YogamAyA keeps the world going.


Does God tell the cells that a virus has attacked and be ready to attack ? Does God tell the cells the location of the virus too if it itself doesn't recognise the virus & its location ? That would be a little too much workload for God seeing the infinite number of activities at infinite number of places by infinite number of agents taking place every moment. I don't think this is what God said in Bhagwad Gita :

"Na Kartrittvam na karmANi lokasya srijati prabhuh, na karma-phala sanyogam svabhAvastu pravartate"

Right ! He doesn't do all this, His external potency/PrakRti (DurgA) does it for Him. She pulls the strings : "Hey, attack. I want 10 zillion white blood cells by dawn" Although prakRti manifests as cells, She (the avyakta) holds the strings, not the individual cells. This is my understanding anyway.

BG 5.14: The embodied spirit, master of the city of his body, does not create activities, nor does he induce people to act, nor does he create the fruits of action. All this is enacted by the modes of material nature.

So, the little "i" has a choice - to associate with external potency and get deluded as being the doer OR to associate with internal potency of Bhagvan and stay in His sAnidhya ...


mhAro ri Giridhara GopA ~la~ dUsarA na ko ~ ~ yA~
chanchal nayan komal charaN komal hRday walene chit loot liyA...

_/\_

[devotee]

Namaste Smarnam,

Thanks for your input. I respect your views. :)

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Kallol,

That is a good explanation. Let me tell you how I see it :

The Consciousness is what anything, everything or nothing is. The layers of Consciousness that you mention can be thought of as a spectrum of Almost total ignorance to Pure Consciousness in infinite shades. The whole of the manifest or the unmanifest world or anything beyond that too comes within this infinite bandwidth. It can be assumed like a massive infinite Ocean with its water molecules vibrating at infinite different frequencies ( though it is not an exact replica of the Reality … but it helps for our purpose) … and so you have hot boiling water at some place, cool soothing water at some other place, frozen ice at some places … water vapour at some places, silent peaceful sea at some place … rising waves in some pther places ... etc. etc. This Ocean is the Consciousness … so it is everywhere (like Sarvagataha/omnipresent Self) … the vibration gives rise to waves but the waves have only temporary existence … they arise and then merge back into the vast ocean of consciousness.

Now, this whole Ocean of Consciousness in its vibratory mode makes a Great Intelligent System. In reality, this Ocean doesn't change at all ever but there are relative transient ephemeral happenings within the relative existence of world in the Ocean. The small waves, big waves, ripples, hot water, cold water, water-vapour etc. follow rules of the Nature (Prakriti) of the Ocean.

This whole "creation" of body-mind-ego entity is like a wave on the Infinite Ocean of Consciousness. The rules of the Nature of Ocean that apply to the transient, short-lived world of waves is available everywhere and it is followed without any exception in the world of so-called Jada (the part of the spectrum of consciousness towards extreme ignorance). On this bandwidth of "almost total ignorance", there is no flouting of rules and either there is no owner or there is only transient ownership … there is no question of arising of Karmas and Karma-phalas and carrying of these SamskArs. Every action is for the Great system and as per the rules of the great system.

Problem arises when "i" comes into picture. The arising of "i" brings up the issue of ownership of action and the results arising due to those actions. This "i" arises in any subsystem of the Great System to fulfil the task required to be done for the Great System. This "i" has no real existence & it is not permanent. The infinite subsystems within the One Infinite Great System are actually individualised Conditioned Consciousnesses. The Conditioned Consciousnesses are also of infinite types depending upon at what point of the spectrum of the Infinite Consciousness they are. On one extreme side there is maximum ignorance & delusion and on the other side of the spectrum there is pure awareness. On both the extremes … there is peace. The almost fully ignorant sub-systems work exactly as per the Universal Rules for the Great system as they can't think on their own. They are programmed by the Great System and work exactly as programmed. On this part of the bandwidth come the material world, vegetable world and very small living things, As we move along the spectrum to the other side, the awareness increases and we start getting animals of higher intellect who can think on their own … they have their "i" strong, stronger and very-very strong in different species as they own the doership of their thoughts and actions and also (as mind) carry their samskArs arising out of their actions even after death of their bodies due their strong attachment to their individuality.

I had asked this question :


You have proposed that the lower layers are unaware of the higher layer for which they are working & also the higher layer is unaware that there are lower layers working for it. Now when the body of "i" dies ... who tells the organs and the cells that their purpose is over ? Or if there is some other agency managing all these ... how does it know ... where does it lie ?

The answer is that the awareness is everywhere and doesn't come from anywhere else. The Rules and the events which expect an action by any unit of conditioned consciousness are known to every unit of conditioned consciousness which are at the "Ignorance" side of the spectrum i.e. which is free of the "i' having AhamkAr of doership. So, as soon as an event related to its field of activity happens, it becomes available to the unit …. as the Consciousness is omnipresent. The Omnipresent all-knowing consciousness makes it available to the unit where an action is required. These units have no choice as far as their actions are concerned … they work exactly as per the programme of the system.

I asked this question :


Again, this "i" doesn't remain in the body always. It disappears when a person goes into deep sleep ? Where does it disappear ? ... and where from it arises again in the morning ? If "i" is everything what takes care of bodily functions when a person goes into Coma and there is no trace of "i" in the person ?

As I told above, this "i" has no permanent existence. It arises from the Consciousness and merges back into the consciousness. Its apparent "birth" is due to the specific samskArs (impressions carried by mind) & prevailing external situation which decide the birth of a specific phenomenon … for this phenomenon to happen, this apparent "i" takes birth. This "i" has no permanent character of its own … it changes its character depending on changes in thoughts, physical and mental conditions within the body etc. In deep sleep the mind drops its hold on to its SamskArs & gunas without which "i" cannot survive & therefore, "i" goes back into Consciousness. On waking up mind grasps its samskArs & gunas and "i" arises from the Consciousness again. Similar to this happens when the body is in Coma.

The change in physio-psycho conditions can sometimes give rise to different "i"s within the same body-mind at different points of time. That is how a person goes mad or has multiple 'i"s in "Multiple Personality Disorder". This proves the impermanent nature of 'i".

What does it say to me ?

My "i" which is in this body-mind aggregate is unique and may never be born again. The samskArs gathered by my mind during this life will give rise to an "i" fit to undergo the events as per the SamskArs and the prevailing circumstances where the entity is born again according to the Rules of the Great System … but as due to change in SamskArs and the circumstances ... there will be a need of a different "i" and a new "i" will be born.

OM

[kallol]

Very good understanding & analysis Devoteeji from philosophy PoV.

One point I would like clarification. As mind is what brings the continuity between the life, death and life along with the karmaphals, can the mind be without the "I" ? Does it mean the mind is not in consciousness or there is no consciousness in mind ?

[devotee]

As mind is what brings the continuity between the life, death and life along with the karmaphals, can the mind be without the "I" ? Does it mean the mind is not in consciousness or there is no consciousness in mind ?

"i" arises in mind but it is not that mind cannot exist without "i". When you are in deep sleep, "i" vanishes but mind is still there otherwise "i" which slept won't arise again on waking up. Mind makes the continuity possible.

Mind is nothing but Consciousness turned outward (looking away from Itself) ... turned inward (looking towards Itself) the Consciousness is Self. So, mind and consciousness cannot be separated. In fact, we can't see anything separate from Consciousness ... as everything comes from Consciousness alone. In essence everything is simply consciousness.

OM

[kallol]

"i" arises in mind but it is not that mind cannot exist without "i". When you are in deep sleep, "i" vanishes but mind is still there otherwise "i" which slept won't arise again on waking up. Mind makes the continuity possible.

Mind is nothing but Consciousness turned outward (looking away from Itself) ... turned inward (looking towards Itself) the Consciousness is Self. So, mind and consciousness cannot be separated. In fact, we can't see anything separate from Consciousness ... as everything comes from Consciousness alone. In essence everything is simply consciousness.

OM


Thanks for clarifying Devoteeji.

Any and all entities felt, perceived, changing, etc have the essential part which is consciousness. It is the common thread which runs across everything. It is what makes the entities exist in the forms they are. Everything arises out of consciousness only.

Now should I say that these entities are consciousness or should I say consciousness enabled entities ?

Though it is sure that entities cannot be seperated from consciousness.

If I say my body is consciousness then the definition of consciousness takes a beating - which is unchangeable, attributeless, timeless, etc.

So how should we see the entites (al all levels) - as a system where the consciouness is an essential part or as (atribute full and changing) consciousness only ?

[devotee]

Namaste Kallol,



Any and all entities felt, perceived, changing, etc have the essential part which is consciousness. It is the common thread which runs across everything. It is what makes the entities exist in the forms they are. Everything arises out of consciousness only.

Now should I say that these entities are consciousness or should I say consciousness enabled entities ?

Though it is sure that entities cannot be seperated from consciousness.

If I say my body is consciousness then the definition of consciousness takes a beating - which is unchangeable, attributeless, timeless, etc.

So how should we see the entites (al all levels) - as a system where the consciouness is an essential part or as (atribute full and changing) consciousness only ?

Actually, the Reality i.e. the Self is conveniently called as Consciousness. The Self in its third state is mass of Pure Consciousness. In the first two states, i.e. the Visva state and Taijasa state Consciousness manifests in multitude of various objects which are seemingly different from Consciousness ... these can be apparently Conscious or unconscious. The questions asked by you is from Visva state where Self is not just Pure Consciousness but has its various names, forms and attributes. (Please refer MAndukya Upanishad)

How does Consciousness create this world of multitude ? This is the nature of Self/Consciousness to create things apparently different from Itself in its vibratory mode. The vibration of Consciousness should not be seen like vibration of any "thing" ... it is something like thought waves being generated in the Ocean of Consciousness. These thoughts have the power of creating things (made of Consciousness as material and by Consciousness as its cause) as imagined in the thought. I will give you an example of a dream. The dreamer has only one Consciousness (if he had more than one ... he would be subject to multiple cognitions at the same time of the same thing which is not the case). The 'i' is an foolproof indicator of Consciousness. The dreamer has an "i" which is dreaming. In the dream there are many people, trees, animals, houses, Sun, Moon etc. ... each behaving in its own way ... even contrary to what the dreamer would like. The whole dream is created by Consciousness of the dreamer as material and also as the cause. However, every man in the dream has its own "i" ... every animal in the dream has its own "separate" "i' ... everything in the dream behaves without bothering to know what the dreamer wants. The man within the dream is created by Consciousness of the dreamer and also behaves as Conscious of the things within the dream ... The same Consciousness acts as the Cogniser (as the dreamer's Consciousness) and also as an object of Cognition.

Unchanging, attributeless, peaceful and blissful state is the fourth state of Self which is named as "TurIya". This is the untainted reality. On this Ocean of Untainted Reality the first three states appear and disappear like dreams due to vibrations in the Self ... these states are like objects of the dream of the dreamer. It is impossible to describe exactly how Self works in all the three states while still maintaining its Original state unchanged due to our mental limitations to understand things. There is no word which can express it as there is nothing in this world which can be compared with It ... in fact, we can't even imagine anything which is exactly as the Self. The Self is to be realised ... but it can't be expressed exactly as It is, even by enlightened beings who realise it.

OM

[kallol]

Thanks Devoteeji for the explanation. You have said it earlier also. I remember clearly. On your encouragement, I have taken up understanding the upanishads. Started with Mundaka (completed once). Still long way to go.

But the confusion is still there. I believe, I need more education and analysis. With my limited analytical capabilities, I am not able to reach that point, where consciousness and matter (unmanifested and manifested) become one and same.

However it is a journey and I some way to go.

Thanks for all the opportunities for sharing and learning.

[devotee]

I am not able to reach that point, where consciousness and matter (unmanifested and manifested) become one and same.


It needs very deep thinking and questioning everything that we take for granted. I may suggest you an exercise which if you have not already done, can give you more insights :

Take three substances. Sodium, Chlorine and two big pieces of Sodium Chloride, say 1000 gm each. Now answer these questions :

a) What is the essence of all the three ? Is it different for each of them ?
b) If the essence is the same, why they exhibit completely different properties just because the arrangement of the same substances is a little different ?
c) Let's call one piece of Sodium Chloride as "A" and the other as "B". Do they have consciousness within them ? If the distance between the two is 1 m, they exert a force F (say). Once the distance between the two is halved, the force reduces to 1/4 th of F. Now, if both the pieces of Sodium Chloride are devoid of Consciousness ... who keeps track of change in the distance between the two pieces and adjusts the forces with mathematical accuracy ?

d) Let's agree that the two pieces have their unique consciousnesses. Now, we break one piece into two halves. What happens to the consciousness ? How does one consciousness get divided into two different pieces with different "i"s ?

e) Who knows that Sodium is sodium and it should behave as sodium ? Or Chlorine is Chlorine and it should behave as Chlorine ? Where from the attributes of Sodium and Chlorine come to aggregates of the same constituents in different ways when the constituents have totally different properties ?

How does Sodium atom know that it has to lose one electron to get a stable configuration or Chlorine atom knows that it has to gain one electron to get stable configuration ? How does a Chlorine atom identify a Sodium atom even though they don't exactly never touch each other ? When Na reacts with Cl it forms NaCl. Now, neither Na nor Cl has any property which is seen in NaCl. Where from these properties come into NaCl when the parent atoms have no such characteristics ? Where does the properties of Na and Cl vanish when both Na and Cl are present in one molecule of NaCl ? When we break NaCl ... how the properties are restored into the resulting child atoms ?

Where is the consciousness which not only monitors all these actions happenings within the universe and makes sure that the results of the actions
is exactly as per the prescribed rules ? Who knows the rules, where do the rules lie and what makes sure that the results are according to rules ? Where is the Consciousness ensuring all these happenings ?

OM

[Adhvagat]

It needs very deep thinking and questioning everything that we take for granted. I may suggest you an exercise which if you have not already done, can give you more insights :

Take three substances. Sodium, Chlorine and two big pieces of Sodium Chloride, say 1000 gm each. Now answer these questions :

a) What is the essence of all the three ? Is it different for each of them ?
b) If the essence is the same, why they exhibit completely different properties just because the arrangement of the same substances is a little different ?
c) Let's call one piece of Sodium Chloride as "A" and the other as "B". Do they have consciousness within them ? If the distance between the two is 1 m, they exert a force F (say). Once the distance between the two is halved, the force reduces to 1/4 th of F. Now, if both the pieces of Sodium Chloride are devoid of Consciousness ... who keeps track of change in the distance between the two pieces and adjusts the forces with mathematical accuracy ?

d) Let's agree that the two pieces have their unique consciousnesses. Now, we break one piece into two halves. What happens to the consciousness ? How does one consciousness get divided into two different pieces with different "i"s ?

e) Who knows that Sodium is sodium and it should behave as sodium ? Or Chlorine is Chlorine and it should behave as Chlorine ? Where from the attributes of Sodium and Chlorine come to aggregates of the same constituents in different ways when the constituents have totally different properties ?

How does Sodium atom know that it has to lose one electron to get a stable configuration or Chlorine atom knows that it has to gain one electron to get stable configuration ? How does a Chlorine atom identify a Sodium atom even though they don't exactly never touch each other ? When Na reacts with Cl it forms NaCl. Now, neither Na nor Cl has any property which is seen in NaCl. Where from these properties come into NaCl when the parent atoms have no such characteristics ? Where does the properties of Na and Cl vanish when both Na and Cl are present in one molecule of NaCl ? When we break NaCl ... how the properties are restored into the resulting child atoms ?

Where is the consciousness which not only monitors all these actions happenings within the universe and makes sure that the results of the actions
is exactly as per the prescribed rules ? Who knows the rules, where do the rules lie and what makes sure that the results are according to rules ? Where is the Consciousness ensuring all these happenings ?

OM

Wow! You make me love chemistry... A subject I only passed in high school because I cheated. :)

If I dare to answer this question: "Where is the Consciousness ensuring all these happenings?", well I'd say everywhere. Consciousness is not in the elements per se, but it's guiding these elements according to their arrangements i.e. intelligence is an inherent part of nature. So we can conclude that consciousness is OUTSIDE of it, meaning it's not contained within those elements alone yet it's also INSIDE since it animates them. Very paradoxal and fascinating.

[kallol]

Thanks Devoteeji,

For the analogy. I should envy your way of looking at the universe.

At the present stage, I am not able to segregate consciousness from the matter (manifested, unmanifested and beyond). Neither I am able to perceive consciousness getting converted at various states.

However I could analyse and assimilate the following :

1. It is consciousness enabled universe - which we also call Brahman.

2. The whole phenomemnon is swinging from permanent phase to temporary and back

3. This swinging between permanent to temporary to permanent has percolated at all levels, layers to manifest as the different forces both physical and mental (matter and subtle matter). All move from one equilibrium to another. Then there are external stimulii to change the state. Then search is for another equilibrium.

4. These forces lead to the behavioural patters of the elements and elementals. This includes all living and non living entities.

5. It is an automated and highly fuzzy system which works under the higher level rules.

The knowledge of the whole system along with how it functions is, what is called God knowledge or God realisation.

I see from science (both present and future) PoV. As of now I am able to explain and perceive most happenings, so the mind is stabilised. As and when I face a happening, I am not able to explain, I will again try to move to next equillibrium zone. That time has not yet come.

However I am following the discourses on the Upanishads at present. It might confornt me with some challenges. Waiting for that.

Again thanks for all encouragement and guidance.

[Mana]

Wow! You make me love chemistry... A subject I only passed in high school because I cheated. :)

If I dare to answer this question: "Where is the Consciousness ensuring all these happenings?", well I'd say everywhere. Consciousness is not in the elements per se, but it's guiding these elements according to their arrangements i.e. intelligence is an inherent part of nature. So we can conclude that consciousness is OUTSIDE of it, meaning it's not contained within those elements alone yet it's also INSIDE since it animates them. Very paradoxal and fascinating.

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo, All

Nice summation, I like to think of a termite mound in all its splendour to remember how intelligence can be spread about the field in nature. How do these tiny creatures know how to act to build a Cathedral with air conditioning, ventilation and to grow a fungus as food, in the perfect conditions they have thus created.

It is as if the plan exists before construction, as If time herself were folding back to allow the creation of something which might already be.

Amazing nature. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld07xdqnytk)


praNAma

mana

[devotee]

If I dare to answer this question: "Where is the Consciousness ensuring all these happenings?", well I'd say everywhere. Consciousness is not in the elements per se, but it's guiding these elements according to their arrangements i.e. intelligence is an inherent part of nature. So we can conclude that consciousness is OUTSIDE of it, meaning it's not contained within those elements alone yet it's also INSIDE since it animates them. Very paradoxal and fascinating.

In fact, if you deeply analyse "everywhere" it can only mean that inside and outside of everything is Consciousness alone i.e. everything including space is made up of Consciousness alone ... that is what the Upanishads say. Because if there is anything except Consciousness then within that constituent of the matter (which is not-consciousness), the Consciousness is not available which violates our postulation that Consciousness is everywhere. Got it ?

OM

[Adhvagat]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo, All

Nice summation, I like to think of a termite mound in all its splendour to remember how intelligence can be spread about the field in nature. How do these tiny creatures know how to act to build a Cathedral with air conditioning, ventilation and to grow a fungus as food, in the perfect conditions they have thus created.

It is as if the plan exists before construction, as If time herself were folding back to allow the creation of something which might already be.

Amazing nature. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld07xdqnytk)


praNAma

mana

Jung theorized about what drives the animals of nature to do what they are supposed to do (their dharma). And he thought that the butterfly that spreads pollen must be motivated by a very beautiful meaning of its actions.

The same that we feel with the big events of our lives, when we get married or when we seek sincerely spiritual life. These archetypes (which can be understood as big collective reservoirs of meaning - thus intelligence) are behind every big move in life, for every creature, from small to cosmic (most probably).

So yes, this would add to the view that life on the whole is intelligence/consciousness.


In fact, if you deeply analyse "everywhere" it can only mean that inside and outside of everything is Consciousness alone i.e. everything including space is made up of Consciousness alone ... that is what the Upanishads say. Because if there is anything except Consciousness then within that constituent of the matter (which is not-consciousness), the Consciousness is not available which violates our postulation that Consciousness is everywhere. Got it ?

OM

So the view that consciousness is not in "matter" itself (or that matter is not synonymous with consciousness) is just a limited view based on our inability to see consciousness itself? Even though we can clearly observe the effects of its workings.

[kallol]

In fact, if you deeply analyse "everywhere" it can only mean that inside and outside of everything is Consciousness alone i.e. everything including space is made up of Consciousness alone ... that is what the Upanishads say. Because if there is anything except Consciousness then within that constituent of the matter (which is not-consciousness), the Consciousness is not available which violates our postulation that Consciousness is everywhere. Got it ?

OM

Dear Devoteeji,

If I see the nature, I see a electromagnetic field having charged and neutral particles, where the particles behave differently due to their own charges and the electomagnetic environment. The charges being altered due to the different collisions, environmental effects, etc.

Now in this scenario, I see that there are particles though electromagnetism is filling the whole environment.

I see the particles enabled by electromagnetic environment are behaving the way they should.

I see the electromagnectism is inside and outside the particles. It is also filling up the whole space.

This I see is true at all subtle and gross levels.

I see this phenomenon at all levels right from the basics to the ultimate system.

[smaranam]

Namaste


everything including space is made up of Consciousness alone ... that is what the Upanishads say.

This is fine.


Because if there is anything except Consciousness then within that constituent of the matter (which is not-consciousness), the Consciousness is not available which violates our postulation that Consciousness is everywhere.

OM

I thought the question was "does each molecule - either organic or inorganic - have its own "i" " OR does each cell have its own "i"

My understanding is, that it does not. The consciousness that pervades each molecule is the Brahman Universal Consciousness - VishNu, or VishNu's energy.

Matter may evolve or age, but it (jad prakRti) does not incarnate like jiva-prakRti. Granite or wood does not incarnate. No token-ID.

However, jiva-bhUta (amoeba, bacteria, virus and up) have their own "i" owing to JIva prakRti, in addition to all-pervading paramAtmA - Kshirodakshayi VishNu,
This jiva-prakRti is an atomic, infinitesimal energy of the infinite VishNu. Jiva-prakRti does incarnate, taking up one body after another.

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.
BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.
BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

This "i" is not the false-ego, which is part of the lower [material] prakRti. This "i" sleeps in the Supersoul (paramAtmA) in
a) deepsleep (shushupti), and in
b) turIya-samadhi for those who wish for liberation into the Supreme.

This "i" in its pure state free of abhimAn and vices, remains as the basis of one's svarUp for those who maintain their relationship with VishNu (for a relationship you need two).

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

[devotee]

If I see the nature, I see a electromagnetic field having charged and neutral particles, where the particles behave differently due to their own charges and the electomagnetic environment. The charges being altered due to the different collisions, environmental effects, etc.

Now in this scenario, I see that there are particles though electromagnetism is filling the whole environment.

I see the particles enabled by electromagnetic environment are behaving the way they should.

I see the electromagnectism is inside and outside the particles. It is also filling up the whole space.

This I see is true at all subtle and gross levels.

I see this phenomenon at all levels right from the basics to the ultimate system.

Electromagnetic fields are not everywhere. Is it there within the protons, electrons or quarks ? What I am saying is that Consciousness is everywhere. The quarks know what they have to do. So, the consciousness must be readily available to the quarks. Let's assume that we are able to break quarks ... and we get something ... then that something also will "know" its role quite well as we have seen in molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles and quarks and anti-quarks. So, you keep breaking the last "thing" and you are sure to get Consciousness there too. And if the Consciousness is everywhere inside the last thing too ... then what is the thing actually made up of ? You have got nothing except layers of consciousness on breaking the particles & finally too you are going to get that (otherwise the rules of universe can't be followed) ... does it not imply that the whole thing is made up of Consciousness alone ? This applies to energy too. The rules are not only known to the matter but energy and electromagnetic fields too.

To prove this hypothesis, you should assume that there is a point in a thing where there is no consciousness. If that is the case then no rules of the nature will be followed beyond that point by whatever happens to be after that point (whether another particle, energy, electromagnetic field or whatever) as there will be no knowledge of rules after that point ... which scientifically and logically seems to be incorrect. Rules of nature are followed in nature without fail.

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Smaranam,



I thought the question was "does each molecule - either organic or inorganic - have its own "i" " OR does each cell have its own "i"

My understanding is, that it does not. The consciousness that pervades each molecule is the Brahman Universal Consciousness - VishNu, or VishNu's energy.

Matter may evolve or age, but it (jad prakRti) does not incarnate like jiva-prakRti. Granite or wood does not incarnate. No token-ID.

However, jiva-bhUta (amoeba, bacteria, virus and up) have their own "i" owing to JIva prakRti, in addition to all-pervading paramAtmA - Kshirodakshayi VishNu,
This jiva-prakRti is an atomic, infinitesimal energy of the infinite VishNu. Jiva-prakRti does incarnate, taking up one body after another.

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.
BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.
BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

This "i" is not the false-ego, which is part of the lower [material] prakRti. This "i" sleeps in the Supersoul (paramAtmA) in
a) deepsleep (shushupti), and in
b) turIya-samadhi for those who wish for liberation into the Supreme.

This "i" in its pure state free of abhimAn and vices, remains as the basis of one's svarUp for those who maintain their relationship with VishNu (for a relationship you need two).


Yes, each molecule, atom, quark or even anti-quark must have an "i". How ? I have already given this example in my earlier post. However, please see it again :

Take two big pieces of stone. Their masses are m1 and m2 (say). They are separated by a distance "d". In this condition they are exerting a force "F" on each other. This is the Universal Law of Gravitation. Now, if we reduce the distance between the two stones to d/2 then the two pieces start exerting force equal to "F/4" on each other.

For being able to exert any force on the other stone and to be able to adjust the force according to the change in distance there should be either a third agency which should not only monitor all these phenomena but also regulate the forces exerted as per the mathematical formula or it must be done by the stones themselves. However, lets assume that there is no third agency (Lord Krishna says that He doesn't interfere in the actions in this world). So, the Stones themselves must be aware of these things :

a) What is their own masses
b) What is the mass of the other stone
c) What is the distance at which the other stone is
d) For knowing that there is "another" stone away from it, each stone must have an independent "i" of its own.

Otherwise it is impossible for one stone to exert force on the other stone and also adjust the same when the distance is changed. As we know that it happens, the above must be true.

OM

[Adhvagat]

Devotee, agreeing with you one could still argue that while molecules maintain a certain level of "i"-ness, they don't show the same willpower than more developed beings, since more developed beings exercise some type of rulership over a certain complex of molecules (bodies).

What do you have to say about that?

[devotee]

Devotee, agreeing with you one could still argue that while molecules maintain a certain level of "i"-ness, they don't show the same willpower than more developed beings, since more developed beings exercise some type of rulership over a certain complex of molecules (bodies).


Having an "i" doesn't mean that it should have freedom to act or to have a willpower. The willpower comes as you move along the Conscious World spectrum bandwidth towards Pure Consciousness. The matter/energy are at the extreme Ignorance side of the Conscious World Spectrum ... they are simply aware of rules and how to follow the rules. They have no willpower and freewill. As you move towards the Pure Consciousness along the spectrum, your willpower becomes strong, stronger ... finally it becomes so much strong that whatever you will becomes a reality. That is what happens in cases of Yogis who attain Siddhis.

OM

[kallol]

Electromagnetic fields are not everywhere. Is it there within the protons, electrons or quarks ? What I am saying is that Consciousness is everywhere. The quarks know what they have to do. So, the consciousness must be readily available to the quarks. Let's assume that we are able to break quarks ... and we get something ... then that something also will "know" its role quite well as we have seen in molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles and quarks and anti-quarks. So, you keep breaking the last "thing" and you are sure to get Consciousness there too. And if the Consciousness is everywhere inside the last thing too ... then what is the thing actually made up of ? You have got nothing except layers of consciousness on breaking the particles & finally too you are going to get that (otherwise the rules of universe can't be followed) ... does it not imply that the whole thing is made up of Consciousness alone ? This applies to energy too. The rules are not only known to the matter but energy and electromagnetic fields too.

To prove this hypothesis, you should assume that there is a point in a thing where there is no consciousness. If that is the case then no rules of the nature will be followed beyond that point by whatever happens to be after that point (whether another particle, energy, electromagnetic field or whatever) as there will be no knowledge of rules after that point ... which scientifically and logically seems to be incorrect. Rules of nature are followed in nature without fail.

OM


I think I have not been able to put it across properly.

Say there is an electromagnetic field in which the particles are there with charges or no charges.

Confine the envelop to this field for study and analogy. Now try to take the electromagnetism as the consciousness and the particles as the matter. Rest remains same.

This is how I see the Brahman.

[Mana]

Namaste Kallol, All

If conciousness exists in the electromagnetic field, it is surly just a shape or pattern, formed of it but not actualy it; vibrations, their resonance; harmony and discord.

As a wave is to the sea.

With this concept in mind we can explain many phenomena, pertaining to the patterns and synchronicity of life; yet Brahman who makes these patterns is not made from them. He is the bounds and the limits within which they are confined, the limits which are needed, in order to manifest.

The sea without the earth and the force of attraction would be a gas cloud in space; The sea would also be perfectly still without the Sun and Moon to stir her.

These limits are boundaries, to my mind fractal in nature; Infinite, O.

How can we describe the infinite which has no bounds? Only by ascribing to it bounds, that our mortal body's might imitate, very briefly, his nature.

AUM ...

Is it the resonance; the vibration of OM within this field, that creates the perception that is you and I?


praNAma

mana


Aum shrim hrim klim glaum gam
ganapataye vara varada sarva
janamme vashamanaya svaha

[kallol]

I think we are getting to no where when we are trying to mix higher level with lower levels.

Forget about consciousness for the time being and try to understand an electromagnetic field with charged and neutral particles in form of gas, liquid or solid, or atoms, etc.

"Now in this scenario, I see that there are particles though electromagnetism is filling the whole environment.

I see the particles enabled by electromagnetic environment are behaving the way they should.

I see the electromagnectism is inside and outside the particles. It is also filling up the whole space. I see both are in same space"

With this analogy let us expand to the higher levels. This I see is true at all subtle and gross levels.

Now the difference is that we, being outside the electromagnetic space, can differentiate the electromagnetic field and the particles. But from particle PoV, they become part and parcel of the whole system. Without electromagnetic field, they lose their properties (related to electromagnetism) and become unknown of that field.

Similar is in our case. We being part and parcel of the Brahman where conciousness is all pervading, will never be able to understand consciousness with our limited senses (only programed to understand gross matter)

All matter is playing in the consciousness field with the rule of permanence to temporary to permanence - swinging from one end to another perpetually.

This is my understanding.

[devotee]

I think I have not been able to put it across properly.

Say there is an electromagnetic field in which the particles are there with charges or no charges.

Confine the envelop to this field for study and analogy. Now try to take the electromagnetism as the consciousness and the particles as the matter. Rest remains same.

This is how I see the Brahman.

I have understood your proposition. I am trying to make you see beyond that. Please look into the particles. What is there inside ? Whatever is there in the particles, how is it behaving as per the laws of nature unless there is Consciousness too ?

The gross matter behaves as per Laws of nature because there is Consciousness around it. OK. Within the Gross objects, there are molecules and they behave as per the laws applicable to them ... so within the gross object there is Consciousness. Within the molecules there are atoms. The atoms behave in the manner they should do inside the molecules which are inside the gross objects. So Consciousness must be there too inside the molecules surrounding the atoms. Within the atoms the Protons, Neutrons and Electrons which make these atoms behave as per the laws applicable to the. So, there is consciousness inside the atoms surrounding the sub-atomic particles. Break the Neutron, proton and electron ... you get quarks and anti-quarks ... they behave exactly as per the laws applicable to them. We have not been able to go beyond these particles ... but analogy suggests that ... anything whatever we find at any level would certainly behave as per the laws applicable to that "thing".

What I am trying to say that all the matter even at the core deep inside them behave as per the laws of nature. So, Consciousness must be there inside the particles too. How is it that ? We really don't know. However, if everything including space is made of consciousness as the Upanishads suggest ... then everything is easy to explain.

OM

[kallol]

Dear Devoteeji,

I am also saying the same thing. However deeper you go, you have the consciousness pervading all. That is what I said as layers.

The only difference point I wanted to make is that though consciuosness (eletromagnetism in analogy) pervades all space, there can be particles / matter in that space which are enabled by the consciousness (electromagnetism in analogy).

This is true for all layers right from unmanifested matter to subtle matter to gross matter.

This is consciousness enabled brahman. Without consciousness, it does not exist, as we are (and all are) a part of the brahman.

I see all part of Brahman which is the supersystem. This supersystem is enabled by consciousness, which is all pervading. This supersystem fluctuates between permanent state to non permanent state, again enabled by consciousness. This is a perpetual cycle which has no start or end. We exist as a system and not as component. The higher state of brahman is the consciousness (paraprakriti) and the lower state is the matter principle (aparaprakriti). The definitions and characteristics are also different. Whereas body-mind complex is aparaprakriti, the life (consciousness) due to which the aparaprakriti exist is paraprakriti.

Through this understanding I am able to simulate the manifestation and unmanifestation of the universe comfortably.

Again I find in Upanishad, mention about universe originating out of consciousness. Now whether I should take the literal meaning out of it or the understanding of the fact that Universe can only be born if and only if Consciusness is there. I take the second one (as of now)

Again as I said, I am able to grasp till this point. Learning never stops and as I mentioned, I will again start moving when this state of equillibrium is disturbed.

[smaranam]

Namaste

Thank you Devoteeji, and everyone on this thread.

Whichever way one looks at it, we all seem to agree upto a certain point.

Fractals, Supersystem of recursive sub-systems, prakRti-recursive-svabhAv

It is just that my definition of "having an i " implied choice, hence it was a bit different from yours. Acc. to you the ownership of pulling another object by gravity lies on the object that is pulling, be it a quark, moon, star or galaxy even if the property of pulling is delegated by Adi Purush. After all, DurgA manifests as the quark on His order.

Whatever way you look at it - it is svabhAv (nature) of prakRti (nature) we are looking at. It is the svabhAv of prakRti of Adi Purush (God, Tam aham bhajAmi). It is the nature of His nature for "nature" to behave the way it does.

The pure-jiva is not really a part of this recursive sub-system, but outside of it, in BhagvAn's transcendental abode.

The jiva embodied in manushya deha (human form) is NOT FOLLOWING HER SVABHAV if she thinks this is it, i am the owner, i am the brain, i am the doer, and hence the embodiment.

That is why i said we have a lot to learn from the cells, tissues, organs, body-systems. THEY are following their svabhAv (nature).

_______

[COLOR="SeaGreen"]So then, what about the virtual systems we make that very crudely mimick God's systems ? Each software program, each module, each function, each instruction down to each machine-level instruction has an "i" ? Can a function say "I refuse to work" ? If it does, the fault lies with the programmer or implementer, or a virus that entered the system, not the function itself !

Just as we create virtual intelligent systems and simulations, so is this whole Universe MahA-VishNu's dream ! We have to write a program, and make numerous corrections. MahaVishNu only has to glance at prakRti, think a thought, dream a dream - and it is implemented : tathAstu !

_/\_