PDA

View Full Version : Pak textbooks foster hatred of Hindus



wundermonk
10 November 2011, 01:06 AM
Story here (http://www.deccanherald.com/content/203533/pakistan-schools-teach-hindu-hatred.html).


"Pakistan and Social Studies textbooks are rife with negative comments regarding India and Great Britain, but Hindus are often singled out for particular criticism in texts and in interview responses," said the report.

"Although an unbiased review of history would show that Hindus and Muslims enjoyed centuries of harmonious co-existence, Hindus are repeatedly described as extremists and eternal enemies of Islam. Hindu culture and society are portrayed as unjust and cruel, while Islam is portrayed as just and peaceful," USCIRF said in its report.


Dont these Pakis realize that their ancestors were once Hindus?

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion." Quran 2:256 was abrogated by "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way." Quran 9:5.

Another beautiful and peaceful Quranic verse 9:29:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

ohhcuppycakee
10 November 2011, 08:41 AM
Those verses were talking about a broken treaty between the Muslims and the pagan Arabs. You do know that, right?

wundermonk
10 November 2011, 08:50 AM
Firstly, shame on you for not attempting to address the *original* intent of the OP - that of Paki hatred of Hinduism.

Secondly, why does there need to be any treaty between Muslims and non-Muslims? What would be the contents of this treaty? What would pagan Arabs have to do to break this treaty?

Thirdly, the Hadiths state that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. Do you support it?

Fourthly, what exactly is wrong about Paganism or idolatry or polytheism or Darwinism or any other "isms" out there? Why is only Mohammedanism the true ism out there?

yajvan
10 November 2011, 07:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

The greatest enemy to hindu's and/or sanātana dharma and the family of man ( society as a whole) is ignorance. This is the king of the territory, all else may be his landlords that deliver the grief to others.

praṇām

ohhcuppycakee
10 November 2011, 09:54 PM
Firstly, shame on you for not attempting to address the *original* intent of the OP - that of Paki hatred of Hinduism.

Secondly, why does there need to be any treaty between Muslims and non-Muslims? What would be the contents of this treaty? What would pagan Arabs have to do to break this treaty?

Thirdly, the Hadiths state that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. Do you support it?

Fourthly, what exactly is wrong about Paganism or idolatry or polytheism or Darwinism or any other "isms" out there? Why is only Mohammedanism the true ism out there?

I was replying to what you said.

To fully understand the conflict...I would suggest you read this:
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/28.htm
This site is one of the best out there if you want to actually know what Islam teaches.

About ahadith, I am not of the opinion that ahadith is perfect. Ahadith can be very flawed as it was passed from person to person much like the game telphone and I am not willing to refer to anything other than the Qur'an when it comes to a matter so serious as that.

sankar
11 November 2011, 12:02 AM
Firstly, shame on you for not attempting to address the *original* intent of the OP - that of Paki hatred of Hinduism.


actually why it is necessary? she is not a pakistani to address to that, she is a muslim, so she disagreed only to where a muslim should respond.

wundermonk
11 November 2011, 12:14 AM
actually why it is necessary? she is not a pakistani to address to that, she is a muslim, so she disagreed only to where a muslim should respond.

You are right...that is why Indian Muslims, Paki Muslims, Australian Muslims, UK Muslims, etc. hate Jews and Israel even though they have never been to Palestine or Israel or were even born in the Middle East or have even met a Jew...Gotcha. Makes a lot of sense now.

sankar
11 November 2011, 01:04 AM
You are right...that is why Indian Muslims, Paki Muslims, Australian Muslims, UK Muslims, etc. hate Jews and Israel even though they have never been to Palestine or Israel or were even born in the Middle East or have even met a Jew...Gotcha. Makes a lot of sense now.

so whats the difference between the two? I dont support generalisation, Personally have met muslims who feels(though only few) sorry for islamic invasion of indian sub-continent and all those brutal activities, and how do you know ohhcupycakee hates all the jews? . I dont have any respect for quran or islam, but to hate muslims as a whole is worst to do.

wundermonk
11 November 2011, 01:26 AM
so whats the difference between the two? I dont support generalisation, Personally have met muslims who feels(though only few) sorry for islamic invasion of indian sub-continent and all those brutal activities, and how do you know ohhcupycakee hates all the jews? . I dont have any respect for quran or islam, but to hate muslims as a whole is worst to do.

Nice of those Muslims to commisserate with Hindus, no? One wonders whether they took to the streets in 1947 protesting *against* the two nation theory.

My father had an Indian Muslim colleague. He asked him "Ghani [his name]...what will you guys do when the Muslim population in Tamil Nadu increases?". Ghani, without batting an eyelid said, "We will fight for a separate country".

Talk about moderate Muslims is meaningless if these moderates are impotent to make any meaningful changes within Muslim society.

So, here is the question for pseudo-secular Hindus and "moderate" Muslims. Was the partition in 1947 wrong, and are you willing to *do* something to reverse it? If not, are you at least willing to be an honest spokesperson for the minorities in Pakistan? After all werent these minorities all Hindu at some point in the past? Or like Arundathi Roy, Mahesh Bhatt, Prannoy Roy, Barkha Dutt, et al., do you want the fate of J&K to be decided based on a plebiscite?

devotee
11 November 2011, 04:20 AM
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion." Quran 2:256 was abrogated by "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way." Quran 9:5.

Another beautiful and peaceful Quranic verse 9:29:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Dear WM,

The Q'uran says that the verses should not be interpreted in isloation to suit someone's petty interests. It also says that all verses should not be translated and understood literally alone.

So, it is better to let Muslims decide what they understand by those verses. Let's not thrust our biased opinion on a Muslim.

OM

charitra
11 November 2011, 01:47 PM
If one watches Pak national TV and read the urdu newspapers,one realizes there are no tolerant muslims in Pakistan after decades ofbrainwashing yielding (un) desirable effect on people. In general you don’t seeany articles published on religious tolerance in any of those dozens of muslimlands. But day in and day out they show how the rest of the world is (allegedly) persecuting the muslims. Recently there was a huge nation-wide celebration when governor Taseer was killed by his bodyguard, just because the former was preaching religious tolerance. Media were siding the devout muslim who followed his book (andkilled !!).The judge who convicted the murderer had fled Pakistan last month afterdelivering the judgement, can you believe it? When hindus and Christians are routinely massacred in Pakistan there wont be a blip in media radar. One politician will issue a small statement; the TVs don’t beam the scenes over and over (unlike here and in India) and the viewers don’t call in to condemn the incident.

Here in USA when we cite this ubiquitous apathy, then the muslims brush aside saying that ‘we live in US, so lets worry about the attitudes of our (nonmuslim) people (toward muslims)here, lots happen outside’. However the same (American muslims) will jump in and start criticizing Israel, china, Russia and India so forth even if oneaberrant incident, in which a muslim is hurt, happens there. One is free toconduct a prospective study if one has time and will on this later observationof mine. Unlike Hindu, Buddhist and Christian lands, muslim lands are make huge pockets of persecution. The remedy is to make constitutions secular in all nations all over the planet, and a bill must be introduced in UN to this effect. Instead, ironically muslim lands are now introducing bills to curtail freedom of speech across board in all nations. Unbelievable.

nitinsharma
12 November 2011, 02:29 AM
pagan
How dare you even utter the word "Pagan",ha?????Thanks to your kind,such people no longer exist.And all the secular love on this topic is enough to make me puke.


I read your signature and found this:
Whether you are Muslim, Hindu, or Sikh...Our God is the same; our heart is one. Why do you consider yourself different...?

There,there,this is the major flaw in whatever little understanding of religion you have.OUR GOD is not same.Our HEART is definitely not the same,infact it dose not have a single strand of DNA in common.Any hindu who feels otherwise can start a parallel forum.
Suggestions:
Politically-correct(and therefore always wrong) hindus.
Hindus lacking self-respect.


BTW,Quote of the day:
A people not convinced of their uniqueness and value will perish.

WHERE THE HECK IS YOUR ______ PRIDE?????

Spiritualseeker
12 November 2011, 11:55 AM
Namaste all,



I was replying to what you said.

To fully understand the conflict...I would suggest you read this:
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/28.htm
This site is one of the best out there if you want to actually know what Islam teaches.

About ahadith, I am not of the opinion that ahadith is perfect. Ahadith can be very flawed as it was passed from person to person much like the game telphone and I am not willing to refer to anything other than the Qur'an when it comes to a matter so serious as that.


Oh no here we go again, another muslim claiming they don't trust hadith. occ if you do not trust hadith then stop doing your five daily prayers. The methods in which muslims perform their prayers in its detail five times a day does not come from the Qur'an, but from the hadith. The Qur'an mentions ruku, prostration, etc.. but it does not go into details of how the prayer is perform. In order to follow this then you have to accept the hadith. If you don't trust hadith, then stop doing the prayers the way you were taught.

I see that you posted a link to a Shia Muslim website. As you are a follower of the so called Ahluh Bayt of Muhammad ibn abdullah, then you must have come across your own Shia hadith?

Concerning your claims that the ayaat about Jihad were against those that broke covenants, this is a true statement on your part concerning that particular ayah. However, there are other ayaat of the Quran in Surah Muhammad and Surah 9 and Surah 2 that speak about Jihad not only in defense and against those that break covenants, but also to fight OFFENSIVELY against nations around in order to raise the name of Allah uppermost. That is why Muhammad wanted jews and christians expelled from the peninsula, and wanted war with romans and persians. He also spoke of Islam conquering everywhere. The entire world is Islamic in the eyes of Muhammads prophecy.

Even Imam Ali, who is the leader of Ahluh bayt after Muhammad was a great murderer. This supposed Leader of the Faithful murdered people because they began worshipping him. This is authenticated not only by Sunnis, but also the followers of Ahluh bayt (in ALL Shia sects). What inspired him to do so? Ayaat from the Qur'an concerning killing apostates and those that are polytheist.

Modern Muslim trickery concerning not trusting hadith and so on will not work against a people who truly study the history of Islam. Just like one cannot be tricked who know the history and formation of Christianity.

Om Tryambakam Yajamahe
Sugandhim Pushtivardhanam
Urvarukamiva Bandhanan
Mrityor Mukshiya Maamritat

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 12:27 PM
Namaste all,
Oh no here we go again, another muslim claiming they don't trust hadith. occ if you do not trust hadith then stop doing your five daily prayers. The methods in which muslims perform their prayers in its detail five times a day does not come from the Qur'an, but from the hadith. The Qur'an mentions ruku, prostration, etc.. but it does not go into details of how the prayer is perform. In order to follow this then you have to accept the hadith. If you don't trust hadith, then stop doing the prayers the way you were taught.

I see that you posted a link to a Shia Muslim website. As you are a follower of the so called Ahluh Bayt of Muhammad ibn abdullah, then you must have come across your own Shia hadith?

Concerning your claims that the ayaat about Jihad were against those that broke covenants, this is a true statement on your part concerning that particular ayah. However, there are other ayaat of the Quran in Surah Muhammad and Surah 9 and Surah 2 that speak about Jihad not only in defense and against those that break covenants, but also to fight OFFENSIVELY against nations around in order to raise the name of Allah uppermost. That is why Muhammad wanted jews and christians expelled from the peninsula, and wanted war with romans and persians. He also spoke of Islam conquering everywhere. The entire world is Islamic in the eyes of Muhammads prophecy.

Even Imam Ali, who is the leader of Ahluh bayt after Muhammad was a great murderer. This supposed Leader of the Faithful murdered people because they began worshipping him. This is authenticated not only by Sunnis, but also the followers of Ahluh bayt (in ALL Shia sects). What inspired him to do so? Ayaat from the Qur'an concerning killing apostates and those that are polytheist.

Modern Muslim trickery concerning not trusting hadith and so on will not work against a people who truly study the history of Islam. Just like one cannot be tricked who know the history and formation of Christianity.

Om Tryambakam Yajamahe
Sugandhim Pushtivardhanam
Urvarukamiva Bandhanan
Mrityor Mukshiya Maamritat

Thanks, and anyways, I do not pray five times a day, I pray three times a day. Regardless of ahadith, the tradition of the salah would have been passed down anyways.

I lean towards more Shi'a than Sunni. Anyways, Shi'a ahadith are very different from that of Sunnis in a couple of ways. For example, Shi'a never threw out their weak or fabricated ahadith automatically so each hadith has to be scrutinized.

When you come across an open-minded and liberal Muslim who stands for peace and tolerance, you claim they are wrong according to their religion. It seems you actually want Muslims to be radicalized to prove your own biases. You'd much rather have me yelling "kill the infidels" than promoting peace and tolerance. Why is that?

Spiritualseeker
12 November 2011, 12:39 PM
Thanks, and anyways, I do not pray five times a day, I pray three times a day.

And this comes from hadith too. This relates back to Ibn Abbas concerning combining Salat by Muhammad. This is why many Shia do it this way.


Regardless of ahadith, the tradition of the salah would have been passed down anyways.

Exactly, that is what hadith is. It is oral transmission of what they heard. That is why you do your salat the way you do. You are only denying that which is most obvious, but it is obscured due to people trying to find fault with their old tradition.


I lean towards more Shi'a than Sunni.

And how do both get their source of knowledge? They both get it from hadith. Yes their hadith differ, but they get it from this source. How else would you know that Muhammad conveyed to the Ummah that Ali was the rightful successor? How else would the Shia have such a strong emphasis on 4:33 ? The Hadith which in this case is Shia hadith. Other wise the Qur'an is a bit vague for us to reach conclusions. Such as the verse concerning Aisha and Hafsa. If it were not for hadith, we would not know what these verses were talking about.


Anyways, Shi'a ahadith are very different from that of Sunnis in a couple of ways. For example, Shi'a never threw out their weak or fabricated ahadith automatically so each hadith has to be scrutinized.

Yes, I understand this, this is why Sunnis criticize Al-Kafi. So the Shia hadith do hold some weight for you? We can start from there, the Shia are not free from zealousness and hate as I mentioned Ali murdering those who worshipped him as Allah.


When you come across an open-minded and liberal Muslim who stands for peace and tolerance, you claim they are wrong according to their religion. It seems you actually want Muslims to be radicalized to prove your own biases. You'd much rather have me yelling "kill the infidels" than promoting peace and tolerance. Why is that?

Not at all, but you make statements to try to make Islam as some tolerant religion and that muslims just don't understand the true meaning of the Qur'an. I am just pointing out facts here. That may seem arrogant, but when you know many of the ayaat their history and the ahadith that explain it, then you understand these things. In that view I could not claim that Islam is this peace loving God's greatest gift to Earth type of thing. I also speak up times when Christians try to act like their path is so amazing and life saving. When you research the history you realize it comes from paganism. You realize oh the devil was a mythical tale that has changed throughout time depending on the culture, until it is made into some being that supposedly exist running around telling people naughty things. History shows the root of many of these things. When we get to the root we see that the world has been lied to by these super power religions that have spread the most 'fitnah'.


Om Shreem Kleem Namah Shivaya

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 12:47 PM
And this comes from hadith too. This relates back to Ibn Abbas concerning combining Salat by Muhammad. This is why many Shia do it this way.



Exactly, that is what hadith is. It is oral transmission of what they heard. That is why you do your salat the way you do. You are only denying that which is most obvious, but it is obscured due to people trying to find fault with their old tradition.



And how do both get their source of knowledge? They both get it from hadith. Yes their hadith differ, but they get it from this source. How else would you know that Muhammad conveyed to the Ummah that Ali was the rightful successor? How else would the Shia have such a strong emphasis on 4:33 ? The Hadith which in this case is Shia hadith. Other wise the Qur'an is a bit vague for us to reach conclusions. Such as the verse concerning Aisha and Hafsa. If it were not for hadith, we would not know what these verses were talking about.



Yes, I understand this, this is why Sunnis criticize Al-Kafi. So the Shia hadith do hold some weight for you? We can start from there, the Shia are not free from zealousness and hate as I mentioned Ali murdering those who worshipped him as Allah.



Not at all, but you make statements to try to make Islam as some tolerant religion and that muslims just don't understand the true meaning of the Qur'an. I am just pointing out facts here. That may seem arrogant, but when you know many of the ayaat their history and the ahadith that explain it, then you understand these things. In that view I could not claim that Islam is this peace loving God's greatest gift to Earth type of thing. I also speak up times when Christians try to act like their path is so amazing and life saving. When you research the history you realize it comes from paganism. You realize oh the devil was a mythical tale that has changed throughout time depending on the culture, until it is made into some being that supposedly exist running around telling people naughty things. History shows the root of many of these things. When we get to the root we see that the world has been lied to by these super power religions that have spread the most 'fitnah'.


Om Shreem Kleem Namah Shivaya

What exactly is your mission? What opinions are you trying to persuade me to have...?

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 12:57 PM
When you come across an open-minded and liberal Muslim who stands for peace and tolerance, you claim they are wrong according to their religion. It seems you actually want Muslims to be radicalized to prove your own biases. You'd much rather have me yelling "kill the infidels" than promoting peace and tolerance. Why is that?

Speaking for myself, I would *love* if more Muslims came forward and reinterpreted their religion to suit modernity and 21st century. But unfortunately, the majority of your co-religionists dont seem to have the inclination or incentive to do so.

One reason why I think this is so is because the Islamic tradition - Quran + Hadiths seem downright mercenary towards non-Muslims.

It appears to me that you dont seem to place a lot of importance on the Hadiths. [I dont know if the hadith where Mohammed instructs death for apostasy is a Shia or a Sunni hadith]. Yet, I couldnt get a clear response from you. So, let me ask you again. Are you against the death penalty for apostasy? Please answer yes or no instead of giving some vague response that you dont believe in the authenticity of some Hadiths. I am asking specifically about the one related to apostasy.

Let us put aside the hadiths for the moment.

Since you state you want to promote peace and tolerance, let me have your views on secularism vs Shariah.

What are your thoughts on Quran 9:29


Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

I am more interested in the relevance of this verse in modern times. For instance, if I find myself in the same country you are in and the Muslims are in a majority, would I have to pay jizyah?

HDF routinely goes through phases where some of us debate hotly with Abrahamics. Part of the reason for this is the history of India/Hinduism - both have suffered greatly under the fanaticism of the Abrahamic faiths. Yet another part of the problem is that the Muslims/Xians who proclaim they are liberal and tolerant seem completely impotent in making any meaningful change to the way in which their religion is being hijacked by the fundies.

We will definitely thank you MORE if instead of pointing out to us that the Quran, when rightly interpreted, is actually a treatise of peace and tolerance, you do your part in making Islamic countries secular. That would be the ultimate gift you could bestow on us non-Muslims.

To start with, you could state that religion should *not* for the basis of nationhood. That is, we should not have Islamic republics or Hindu republics or Xian republics or Jewish republics, etc., etc. Would you agree?

Non-Muslims should be free to settle in Mecca or Medina or Karbala. Yes?

There are verses in the Quran where Allah took special pains to slaughter homosexuals in Lot's village - just because they were homosexuals. Ahmedinejad famously said in a speech in NY that Iran didnt have homosexuals. There are Muftis who routinely state that homosexuality should be punished by death. You are against this barbaric practice, yes?

Spiritualseeker
12 November 2011, 12:59 PM
What exactly is your mission? What opinions are you trying to persuade me to have...?

None whatsoever, it is more of a clarification. You are free to believe whatever you wish. There is a conversation about Paki textbooks that are causing hate of Hindus. Many of the justifications come from the Qur'an. This is a serious issue that is still happening even though we are far past the dark ages. Therefore if someone starts trying to make a defense of the Qur'an that it does not justify the many murders going on in the world, then I feel the need to state something so that others can have an understanding. I am for all coming together in peace, but some things I wish not to be silent about, when the history is well known and the roots of these problems are exposed. Perhaps it is a flaw of mine to speak up.


Om Shreem Kleem Namah Shivaya

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 01:17 PM
So, let me ask you again. Are you against the death penalty for apostasy? Please answer yes or no instead of giving some vague response that you dont believe in the authenticity of some Hadiths. I am asking specifically about the one related to apostasy.
Yes, I am against death penalty for apostasy.


Since you state you want to promote peace and tolerance, let me have your views on secularism vs Shariah.

What are your thoughts on Quran 9:29

I am more interested in the relevance of this verse in modern times. For instance, if I find myself in the same country you are in and the Muslims are in a majority, would I have to pay jizyah?

Personally, I am a bit indifferent to the idea of jizyah (I haven't really thought about it much at all, to be honest), but I will share some knowledge on this topic that you might think is interesting. If a person pays jizyah, they do not have to fight in any battles or wars (while Muslims would have to).


To start with, you could state that religion should *not* for the basis of nationhood. That is, we should not have Islamic republics or Hindu republics or Xian republics or Jewish republics, etc., etc. Would you agree?

Yes, I definitely agree.


Non-Muslims should be free to settle in Mecca or Medina or Karbala. Yes?

I don't see why not.


There are verses in the Quran where Allah took special pains to slaughter homosexuals in Lot's village - just because they were homosexuals. Would you like to defend these actions of Allah?

I'll have to actually read this story in the Qur'an to give you a proper answer.

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 01:25 PM
Personally, I am a bit indifferent to the idea of jizyah (I haven't really thought about it much at all, to be honest), but I will share some knowledge on this topic that you might think is interesting. If a person pays jizyah, they do not have to fight in any battles or wars (while Muslims would have to).

My dear OCC...indifference wont suffice I am afraid. You ought to stop seeing the world through Quranic eyes. Life isnt all about fighting and battling, etc., etc. What was true of 7th century Arabia is not valid in the 21st century. In your previous post you said you want to promote peace and tolerance...and now you state that by paying Jizyah one doesnt have to battle! What sort of ideals are these?!

You will of course be indifferent whether I have to pay a special tax or not because you are unaffected. But the concept of Jizyah flies in the face of 21st century ideals of morality and ethics that one set of people, purely based on what is their perception of the Divine, are effectively treated as 2nd class citizens.

Jizyah also goes against the latest addition to your signature - the quote from the Bhagvad Gita which says that the sage should treat everybody equally!

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 01:38 PM
My dear OCC...indifference wont suffice I am afraid. You ought to stop seeing the world through Quranic eyes. Life isnt all about fighting and battling, etc., etc. What was true of 7th century Arabia is not valid in the 21st century. In your previous post you said you want to promote peace and tolerance...and now you state that by paying Jizyah one doesnt have to battle! What sort of ideals are these?!

You will of course be indifferent whether I have to pay a special tax or not because you are unaffected. But the concept of Jizyah flies in the face of 21st century ideals of morality and ethics that one set of people, purely based on what is their perception of the Divine, are effectively treated as 2nd class citizens.

Jizyah also goes against the latest addition to your signature - the quote from the Bhagvad Gita which says that the sage should treat everybody equally!

You may believe my religion is flawed, horrible, violent, etc...but please, remember, there are flaws in your own religion as well. Every religion out there treats non-adherents differently; this is a well-known fact, is it not? For example, in Hinduism, I am not even in the caste system, I am below it, is this not true?

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 01:44 PM
Hindu society and India have recognized the flaws of birth-based caste system. There are no verses in Sruti texts that explicitly state varna is by birth. Please look through endless discussions/threads we have had on HDF on this issue.

Most importantly, India is governed by secular laws. Those who were earlier harmed by birth-based caste system are provide affirmative treatment in government jobs.

Whether you are within the caste system or not, why do you care? If you were to become a citizen of India, you dont have to pay one extra paise of tax than I have to.

Can you really not bring yourself to saying that the Jizyah concept if wrong?

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 01:52 PM
Hindu society and India have recognized the flaws of birth-based caste system. There are no verses in Sruti texts that explicitly state varna is by birth. Please look through endless discussions/threads we have had on HDF on this issue.

Most importantly, India is governed by secular laws. Those who were earlier harmed by birth-based caste system are provide affirmative treatment in government jobs.

Whether you are within the caste system or not, why do you care? If you were to become a citizen of India, you dont have to pay one extra paise of tax than I have to.

I guess you can compare that of sruti and smriti to that of Qur'an and ahadith, huh? This idea of caste based on birth has shaped certainly Hindu society, nonetheless.

"Accordingly, those who are of pleasant conduct here -- the prospect is, indeed, that they will enter a pleasant womb, either the womb of a Brahman, or the womb of a Kshatriya, or the womb of a Vaisya. But those who are of a stinking conduct here -- the prospect is, indeed, that they will enter a stinking womb of a dog, or the womb of a swine, or the womb of an outcast." - Chandogya Upanishad, 5.10.8

Why do I care if it doesn't affect me? Why do you care about an extra tax if it doesn't even affect you?

Do you believe the caste system is wrong?

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 02:08 PM
There is a difference between caste and varna system. The Varna system applies to *everyone*. The caste system probably applies only to Indians. The Chandogya text you quote refers to varna, as far as I am concerned. It is simply stating that by good actions, based on gunas [sattva, rajas and tamas] and appropriate birth will occur in the next life. The varna of the parent womb that is referred to need not coincide with the "caste" of the womb.

Birth-based caste system [which is effectively what caste system was about] is wrong. i.e. a person born of a Shudra "caste" is not automatically a Shudra.

People use the caste system these days to find suitable matrimonial alliances for themselves, etc. It forms no role in government/public policy except affirmative action for historically disadvantaged group.

Now, can I have you state something about Jizyah and its relevance in modern day Islamic societies?

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 02:10 PM
There is a difference between caste and varna system. The Varna system applies to *everyone*. The caste system probably applies only to Indians. The Chandogya text you quote refers to varna, as far as I am concerned. It is simply stating that by good actions, based on gunas [sattva, rajas and tamas] and appropriate birth will occur in the next life. The womb it refers to in many cases will not coincide with the "caste" of the womb.

Birth-based caste system [which is effectively what caste system was about] is wrong. i.e. a person born of a Shudra "caste" is not automatically a Shudra.

People use the caste system these days to find suitable matrimonial alliances for themselves, etc. It forms no role in government/public policy except affirmative action for historically disadvantaged group.

Now, can I have you state something about Jizyah and its relevance in modern day Islamic societies?

So what exactly would my varna be...? What is yours?

Do you agree with caste system? (You still haven't answered this yet.)

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 02:14 PM
[COLOR="Black"]
So what exactly would my varna be...? What is yours?

Varna is based on gunas. Chpt 18 of the BG deals with this. Could you take the trouble of going through it?

As I see it, the gunas of a person change from time to time. Based on gunas, so do the varna. I have probably been a Brahmin, Vaishya, Kshatriya and Shudra at different stages in my life. Same for you.


Do you agree with caste system? (You still haven't answered this yet.)

Of course I dont. I answered it here:


Birth-based caste system [which is effectively what caste system was about] is wrong. i.e. a person born of a Shudra "caste" is not automatically a Shudra.

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 02:16 PM
Varna is based on gunas. Chpt 18 of the BG deals with this. Could you take the trouble of going through it?

As I see it, the gunas of a person change from time to time. Based on gunas, so do the varna. I have probably been a Brahmin, Vaishya, Kshatriya and Shudra at different stages in my life. Same for you.


What do you think I am now?

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 02:24 PM
What do you think I am now?

Nah...why should I judge you? You are smart enough to do your homework yourself by reading BG chpt 18. It is for each person to see for herself. Remember, Hinduism is a process of self-discovery...no need to get my approval of something.

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 02:37 PM
Nah...why should I judge you? You are smart enough to do your homework yourself by reading BG chpt 18. It is for each person to see for herself. Remember, Hinduism is a process of self-discovery...no need to get my approval of something.

I just asked you since I thought you would know this stuff better!

Random question: were you born into a Hindu family or did you convert? And what sect do you follow?

wundermonk
12 November 2011, 02:51 PM
Helloooo...anybody home?

The gunas [Sattva, Rajas and Tamas] have deep symbology. How these gunas interact with each other determines one's Varna. It is not possible for me to judge your Varna, not because I dont know what these gunas stand for, but because I dont know your gunas! No one probably knows *your* gunas except you! Is this really that difficult to grasp?

OCC...what was your intention on joining HDF?

Regarding your questioning about my biography - you shouldnt bother about my *personal* details.

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 03:12 PM
Helloooo...anybody home?

The gunas [Sattva, Rajas and Tamas] have deep symbology. How these gunas interact with each other determines one's Varna. It is not possible for me to judge your Varna, not because I dont know what these gunas stand for, but because I dont know your gunas! No one probably knows *your* gunas except you! Is this really that difficult to grasp?

OCC...what was your intention on joining HDF?

Regarding your questioning about my biography - you shouldnt bother about my *personal* details.

I just wanted to learn more about Hinduism. I am intensely interested in religion in general. I am on a few Sikh, Christian, Buddhist, and Baha'i forums as well.

Eastern Mind
12 November 2011, 04:11 PM
I just wanted to learn more about Hinduism. I am intensely interested in religion in general. I am on a few Sikh, Christian, Buddhist, and Baha'i forums as well.

Vannakkam ohhcuppycake: It is really hard for people to tell the intentions of others. I too visit other sites, exploring religion hither thither. People often pose as questioners when they have another purpose ... to use the answers they get to belittle of smirk on about those answers. I've seen Mormons questioned about polygamy, Muslims questioned about the actions of their prophet, and all kinds of other things.

There is subtle trolling and then there is legitimate seeking. Sometimes its hard to distinguish between the two, and the subtle troll knows this information.

Here we welcome all legitimate seeking, at least that's my personal stance. But when the question is such that it is hoping for an argument, or to catch the person they're asking in a contradiction, then its just 'foolin' around' and no moderator on any decent forum wants any part of it.

I am not suggesting you're either ... just sitting back reading and watching for the most part.

Aum Namasivaya

ohhcuppycakee
12 November 2011, 05:13 PM
Vannakkam ohhcuppycake: It is really hard for people to tell the intentions of others. I too visit other sites, exploring religion hither thither. People often pose as questioners when they have another purpose ... to use the answers they get to belittle of smirk on about those answers. I've seen Mormons questioned about polygamy, Muslims questioned about the actions of their prophet, and all kinds of other things.

There is subtle trolling and then there is legitimate seeking. Sometimes its hard to distinguish between the two, and the subtle troll knows this information.

Here we welcome all legitimate seeking, at least that's my personal stance. But when the question is such that it is hoping for an argument, or to catch the person they're asking in a contradiction, then its just 'foolin' around' and no moderator on any decent forum wants any part of it.

I am not suggesting you're either ... just sitting back reading and watching for the most part.

Aum Namasivaya

Yeah, I understand. We get a lot of trolls on shiachat.com. :/ Don't worry though, I'm not a troll, haha. I've mainly been lurking on here and not posting since I don't know too much about Hinduism, but inevitably I end up replying to someone about Islam.

Spiritualseeker
12 November 2011, 07:55 PM
Namaste,

ohhcuppycake, do you think Imam Ali was justified in killing those who worshiped him?

Om Namah Shivaya

bp789
13 November 2011, 12:26 AM
Yeah, I understand. We get a lot of trolls on shiachat.com. :/ Don't worry though, I'm not a troll, haha. I've mainly been lurking on here and not posting since I don't know too much about Hinduism, but inevitably I end up replying to someone about Islam.

Random question ohhcuppycake, but are you an Ismaili Shia Muslim (ie follow the Aga Khan)?

Eastern Mind
13 November 2011, 05:06 AM
Vannakkam: Isn't the Aga Khan leader of the Ismaili sect? The Ammadhiyas?

Aum Namasivaya

wundermonk
13 November 2011, 07:22 AM
Hello EM:

Pakis doesnt just preach hatred of Hindus. They also preach hatred of Ahmadiyas.

Here (http://www.thepersecution.org/archive/pl_xpass.html) is the passport application form of Pakistan. If one is a Muslim, one has to sign the following:


DECLARATION IN CASE OF MUSLIMS

I .............................. S/O.............................. Aged................. .Years, adult Muslim, Resident of..................................................................... hereby solemnly declare that :-

(i) I am Muslim and believe in the absolute and unqualified finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) the last of the prophets.
(ii) I do not recognise any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognise such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim.
(iii) I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani to be an imposter nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to the Lahori or Qadiani group to be Non-Muslim.


Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynunOMEtUmg) is another beautiful video, this time from Indonesia. The preacher is preaching the beautiful oneness and unity within Islam and how Ahmadiyas and others are all Muslims bowing down in unison towards the Kaaba in Mecca.

nitinsharma
13 November 2011, 07:44 AM
In a few years time,the way things are going,they might as well edit the innocent line:"in case of muslims".

P.S:Anyone else here thinking of dedicating a thread to interview OCC???Looks like its got the potential to be hugely entertaining.

Spiritualseeker
13 November 2011, 08:59 AM
Namaste,

It does not seem that OCC wants to respond concerning Imam Ali murdering those who worshiped him. That is fine, but I just want to highlight something here. A lot of people such as the Shia claim that the terrorist who misinterpret the Qur'an are Sunnis and followers of the path of Muawiyah and Yazid. However, both Shia and Sunni agree that a group of people began worshiping Ali as Allah. When Imam Ali found out about this he ordered a ditch to be dug and fire placed in it. He threw these people into the fire. The people he was killing were just as crazy when they claimed, "Look Ali punishes with fire, therefore he must be Allah". Ibn Abbas was not happy about this incident only because Ali used fire. Ibn Abbas claims that he heard Muhammad say that only Allah punishes with fire. So in Ibn Abbas eyes it was okay to murder them, just not with the use of fire. Imam Ali is one of the greatest Imams according to Sunni and Shia. Shia place him on the rank of divinely ordained by Allah to lead the Ummah after Muhammad. Once again we see a heroic Islamic figure who murders a people simply because they began worshiping him. Then it is claimed that the Qur'an is misinterpreted by us, yet the forefathers of Islam who were quite respected amongst muslims are justifying murder.

Who is right? The great Imam Ali who is divinely ordained as an Imam and PURIFIED from sins (as according to the verse of the cloak)? or modern day reinterpretations of this religion that was passed down by criminals such as Ali?


Om Namah Shivaya

ohhcuppycakee
13 November 2011, 09:37 AM
Namaste,

ohhcuppycake, do you think Imam Ali was justified in killing those who worshiped him?

Om Namah Shivaya

I don't know when this interview turned into an interview about my beliefs, but I'm not interested. I think you only want to learn about my beliefs so you can criticize them...? What do you want me to say in the end? Hinduism is the only true religion? Abrahamic faiths are flawed and violent? Islam is evil?

ohhcuppycakee
13 November 2011, 09:38 AM
Random question ohhcuppycake, but are you an Ismaili Shia Muslim (ie follow the Aga Khan)?

No, I am not an Ismaili. What made you think that?

ohhcuppycakee
13 November 2011, 09:39 AM
Vannakkam: Isn't the Aga Khan leader of the Ismaili sect? The Ammadhiyas?

Aum Namasivaya

Aga Khan is the 49th imam of the Nizari Ismailis.

Eastern Mind
13 November 2011, 10:05 AM
No, I am an Ismaili. What made you think that?

Vannakkam: Not that it matters, but now I'm more confused. Someone asked it you are an Ismaili, and you said, "No, I am an Ismaili." What gives?

Shall go look at wiki, I guess. :)

Aum Namasivaya

Spiritualseeker
13 November 2011, 10:11 AM
I don't know when this interview turned into an interview about my beliefs, but I'm not interested. I think you only want to learn about my beliefs so you can criticize them...? What do you want me to say in the end? Hinduism is the only true religion? Abrahamic faiths are flawed and violent? Islam is evil?

No problem, I will not ask you any more questions. Its just that you wanted to explain the Ayat away as if the entire Muslim world from its history of oppression was just based on misinterpretations. So since you provided a Shia website, I decided to mention of Imam Ali's murders, since he after all is the Leader of the Faithful. I apologize if I offended you.

Om Namah Shivaya

ohhcuppycakee
13 November 2011, 10:28 AM
Vannakkam: Not that it matters, but now I'm more confused. Someone asked it you are an Ismaili, and you said, "No, I am an Ismaili." What gives?

Shall go look at wiki, I guess. :)

Aum Namasivaya


Oops. I meant to say not, lol.

devotee
13 November 2011, 10:37 AM
I don't know when this interview turned into an interview about my beliefs, but I'm not interested. I think you only want to learn about my beliefs so you can criticize them...? What do you want me to say in the end? Hinduism is the only true religion? Abrahamic faiths are flawed and violent? Islam is evil?

It is not that. SS was a Muslim before & I think quite a knowledgeable one. :)

OM

ohhcuppycakee
13 November 2011, 10:42 AM
It is not that. SS was a Muslim before & I think quite a knowledgeable one. :)

OM

Really? Interesting.

sankar
13 November 2011, 10:50 AM
Nice of those Muslims to commisserate with Hindus, no? One wonders whether they took to the streets in 1947 protesting *against* the two nation theory.

My father had an Indian Muslim colleague. He asked him "Ghani [his name]...what will you guys do when the Muslim population in Tamil Nadu increases?". Ghani, without batting an eyelid said, "We will fight for a separate country".

Talk about moderate Muslims is meaningless if these moderates are impotent to make any meaningful changes within Muslim society.

So, here is the question for pseudo-secular Hindus and "moderate" Muslims. Was the partition in 1947 wrong, and are you willing to *do* something to reverse it? If not, are you at least willing to be an honest spokesperson for the minorities in Pakistan? After all werent these minorities all Hindu at some point in the past? Or like Arundathi Roy, Mahesh Bhatt, Prannoy Roy, Barkha Dutt, et al., do you want the fate of J&K to be decided based on a plebiscite?
wundermonk, Occ is only a teenage girl, and she might have liked certain aspects of islam, so she chosen it. There are many things which are not perfect, for eg: political parties, still we all vote for them. Unless she justifies the spread of islam or those cruel verses, she deserves respect from all of us.

And you were so quick to rate me as a pseudo-secularist, im perfectly aware of the situation where muslims go majority, but the blame goes to interpretation of verses in the holy book and islam missionaries who act according to command of international agencies. Yes, we should act, but hate in our hearts can be avoided.

wundermonk
13 November 2011, 11:30 AM
So, here is the question for pseudo-secular Hindus and "moderate" Muslims. Was the partition in 1947 wrong, and are you willing to *do* something to reverse it? If not, are you at least willing to be an honest spokesperson for the minorities in Pakistan? After all werent these minorities all Hindu at some point in the past? Or like Arundathi Roy, Mahesh Bhatt, Prannoy Roy, Barkha Dutt, et al., do you want the fate of J&K to be decided based on a plebiscite?


wundermonk, Occ is only a teenage girl, and she might have liked certain aspects of islam, so she chosen it. There are many things which are not perfect, for eg: political parties, still we all vote for them. Unless she justifies the spread of islam or those cruel verses, she deserves respect from all of us.

And you were so quick to rate me as a pseudo-secularist, im perfectly aware of the situation where muslims go majority, but the blame goes to interpretation of verses in the holy book and islam missionaries who act according to command of international agencies.

Sankar: I do take extra care in my choice of words while posting and I did *not* label you a P-Sec. Reread my writing that you quoted please.

Whether you are a P-Sec or not is not my immediate concern.

The larger issue is that even after five pages of back and forth, OCC has chosen *not* to address the initial content of the OP - that of fundamentalism in the name of Islam in Pakistan. Your saying that she is *not* Pakistani and shouldnt be asked to defend this is a weak response. The concept in Islam that trumps nationalism is the concept of the ummah which is trans-national. Do you ever worry that Muslims in India cannot bring themselves to sing Vande Mataram yet will bow down to the muezzin call for prayer that blares 5 times a day in Arabic, a language that these Muslims probably dont even understand?

I dont know if she is a teenager or not. If she is a teenager, dont you find it a bit frightening and alarming, to say the least, that she says that payment of Jaziya by non-Muslims in an Islamic state ruled by Shariah guarantees them the obligation to desist from fighting [one wonders fighting for what?] when other Muslims have to fight? When I probed her on this issue, she then goes onto quote a Chandogya text in an attempt to "get back" and regain the moral high ground?

She still has not addressed the Jaziya issue and I doubt if she will because having already disowned the Hadiths, she will now have to disown the Quran itself.

This exchange reminds me of a television telecast many years ago - some time in 1996 or 1997 I think. Charu Sharma [an Indian TV cricket commentator] was interviewing Bangladeshi kids during the break of a cricket match between India and Pakistan being played somewhere in Bangladesh. He asked the kid [~7/8 years old is my guess] who he was supporting. Without batting an eyelid the kid said Pakistan. The reason he gave was bone-chilling. He said he supported them because Pakistan was an Islamic country.

Can you imagine a 7 year old who probably doesnt know how the world works for the most part knows enough to say that Pakistan is an Islamic country and just because of that he supports it?

That, right there, is the intellectual foundation of terrorism. It is to India's greatest ill-luck that P-Secs [not you personally, unless you wish to be identified as on] are unable to bring themselves to see this nonsense that goes on in the name of so-called "tolerance" and "secularism" in India. As far as I can see, tolerance and giving respect to others seems to be a one-way street.

ohhcuppycakee
13 November 2011, 12:13 PM
The larger issue is that even after five pages of back and forth, OCC has chosen *not* to address the initial content of the OP - that of fundamentalism in the name of Islam in Pakistan. Your saying that she is *not* Pakistani and shouldnt be asked to defend this is a weak response. The concept in Islam that trumps nationalism is the concept of the ummah which is trans-national. Do you ever worry that Muslims in India cannot bring themselves to sing Vande Mataram yet will bow down to the muezzin call for prayer that blares 5 times a day in Arabic, a language that these Muslims probably dont even understand?

There's nothing to address. I am not Pakistani and thus, do not know much about things going on in Pakistan. As for the idea of the ummah, the is an Islamic concept, but it is not implemented because people will always love their culture and nationality more than their religion. Do you not agree with this? Pakistanis have always loved their culture more. There's a reason most of them refuse to marry outside of their nationality, and it is certainly not an Islamic one.


I dont know if she is a teenager or not. If she is a teenager, dont you find it a bit frightening and alarming, to say the least, that she says that payment of Jaziya by non-Muslims in an Islamic state ruled by Shariah guarantees them the obligation to desist from fighting [one wonders fighting for what?] when other Muslims have to fight? When I probed her on this issue, she then goes onto quote a Chandogya text in an attempt to "get back" and regain the moral high ground?

Every country has a military. Sometimes people are drafted (like in US people were drafted for Vietnam). This isn't a foreign concept.

I was trying to make the point that all religions treat non-adherents differently when I mentioned that I am below the caste system in Hinduism.

sankar
13 November 2011, 11:35 PM
There's nothing to address. I am not Pakistani and thus, do not know much about things going on in Pakistan. As for the idea of the ummah, the is an Islamic concept, but it is not implemented because people will always love their culture and nationality more than their religion. Do you not agree with this? Pakistanis have always loved their culture more. There's a reason most of them refuse to marry outside of their nationality, and it is certainly not an Islamic one.



Every country has a military. Sometimes people are drafted (like in US people were drafted for Vietnam). This isn't a foreign concept.

I was trying to make the point that all religions treat non-adherents differently when I mentioned that I am below the caste system in Hinduism.

Incorrect, let me ask you, cakee.... isnt this policy against islam? to my understanding a muslim should love 'allah' than anything else, to love him is to regard his commandments and religion as primary. An exameple for such incidents - Fatwa issued against 'Vande Mataram' - Times Of India. (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-11-03/india/28108890_1_national-song-patriotic-song-islam)

The same is the reason why missionaries primary target is india, india is the home of dharmic faiths, to win converts from india is to destroy dharmic religions for ever. According to islamic doctrine, to spread islam is a duty of every muslim, so they would probably go against their nation if it does anything good to their faith.


Being a resident of india, i have seen in muslim populated areas they burn crackers when pakistan defeats india in cricket matches.

And your statement on pakistan is also incorrect, is intercaste marriage between couples sharing same culture ever possible in pakistan? it is the best example that they value their religion than culture, of cource they love their culture, but it is only second. If culture and nation was primary to them, india-pakistan partition would never been happened.

devotee
14 November 2011, 12:09 AM
Namaste Sankar,

Muslim and Pakis are not same. The birth of Pakistan was based on hatred against India. This hatred against India is the Opium which has kept this nation in one piece ... it has become like heroine to a drug-addict. Pakistan's survival will be at stake if they throw away this hate potion being distributed to each and every Pakistani.

What I was saying that a Pakistani and Muslims should not bee seen the same. It is the Pakistanis who have earned such a bad name fore Islam & no one else. Most of the terrorists organisation owe their birth to their hate-filled mother the Pakistan. They have lost almost even basic necessities for a dignified human survival in their society ... but they just can't get over it. Such is their plight. Q'uran has been misused to further their diabolic designs against India.

However, I have also found some Muslims in my life who have been very very kind when I badly needed it. I have been in Afghanistan for quite a few years and let me tell you that we can never match their hospitality. Once I was a guest of one of high official of Afghanistan. When we met for lunch, I was overwhelmed to see that there was everything vegetarian on the dining table ... I could see that my host was finding it difficult to eat the vegan food ... but he made all efforts to make me feel at home. Once I was in Kolkata late at night with my friends when we were studying in college. On the way to Kolkata, we met one Muslim family & became good friends ... the children started calling as MAmA (mother's brother). The train got delayed and we reached Kolkata at nearly 11:00 pm. Our one of friends had one known person in BaDa BaZAr & he said that we should go there & stay at night. However, the Muslim friend suggested that it was late night and he didn't expect that anyone would open door so easily... he offered us to go and take rest at his house. But we were reluctant and decided to go to BaDa BAZar. The Muslim friend insisted that he alongwith his family will accompany us to see that we get the shelter there otherwise he would take us his home, as we were new to this city and this city was not very safe at night. Somehow, the known person refused to recognise my friend at this late hour at night and didn't open the door. Our Muslim friend assured us that we needed not to worry and took all of us to his house. Let me tell you that he kept us in a manner as if he was our real brother or his wife was our real sister ... his wife herself cooked vegetarian food for us.

These are not stray incidents ... there are even more in my own life. So, let's not brand all Muslims with the paintbrush of same feeling of hatred ... most of them are actually innocent souls and are victims of dangerous political designs of the Mullahs who use them for their own vested interests in the name of Islam.

OM

sankar
14 November 2011, 03:16 AM
Namaste Sankar,

Muslim and Pakis are not same. The birth of Pakistan was based on hatred against India. This hatred against India is the Opium which has kept this nation in one piece ... it has become like heroine to a drug-addict. Pakistan's survival will be at stake if they throw away this hate potion being distributed to each and every Pakistani.

What I was saying that a Pakistani and Muslims should not bee seen the same. It is the Pakistanis who have earned such a bad name fore Islam & no one else. Most of the terrorists organisation owe their birth to their hate-filled mother the Pakistan. They have lost almost even basic necessities for a dignified human survival in their society ... but they just can't get over it. Such is their plight. Q'uran has been misused to further their diabolic designs against India.

However, I have also found some Muslims in my life who have been very very kind when I badly needed it. I have been in Afghanistan for quite a few years and let me tell you that we can never match their hospitality. Once I was a guest of one of high official of Afghanistan. When we met for lunch, I was overwhelmed to see that there was everything vegetarian on the dining table ... I could see that my host was finding it difficult to eat the vegan food ... but he made all efforts to make me feel at home. Once I was in Kolkata late at night with my friends when we were studying in college. On the way to Kolkata, we met one Muslim family & became good friends ... the children started calling as MAmA (mother's brother). The train got delayed and we reached Kolkata at nearly 11:00 pm. Our one of friends had one known person in BaDa BaZAr & he said that we should go there & stay at night. However, the Muslim friend suggested that it was late night and he didn't expect that anyone would open door so easily... he offered us to go and take rest at his house. But we were reluctant and decided to go to BaDa BAZar. The Muslim friend insisted that he alongwith his family will accompany us to see that we get the shelter there otherwise he would take us his home, as we were new to this city and this city was not very safe at night. Somehow, the known person refused to recognise my friend at this late hour at night and didn't open the door. Our Muslim friend assured us that we needed not to worry and took all of us to his house. Let me tell you that he kept us in a manner as if he was our real brother or his wife was our real sister ... his wife herself cooked vegetarian food for us.

These are not stray incidents ... there are even more in my own life. So, let's not brand all Muslims with the paintbrush of same feeling of hatred ... most of them are actually innocent souls and are victims of dangerous political designs of the Mullahs who use them for their own vested interests in the name of Islam.

OM
dear devotee, did not mean to brand every muslim to be bad(check my previous posts), but could not agree with Occ's statement that muslims generally love culture and nation than faith, thats not what we see around us for decades.

nitinsharma
14 November 2011, 06:57 AM
I don't know when this interview turned into an interview about my beliefs, but I'm not interested. I think you only want to learn about my beliefs so you can criticize them...? What do you want me to say in the end? Hinduism is the only true religion? Abrahamic faiths are flawed and violent? Islam is evil?

Hmm.....she's not that stupid people.

ohhcuppycakee
14 November 2011, 08:23 AM
Incorrect, let me ask you, cakee.... isnt this policy against islam? to my understanding a muslim should love 'allah' than anything else, to love him is to regard his commandments and religion as primary. An exameple for such incidents - Fatwa issued against 'Vande Mataram' - Times Of India. (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-11-03/india/28108890_1_national-song-patriotic-song-islam)

The same is the reason why missionaries primary target is india, india is the home of dharmic faiths, to win converts from india is to destroy dharmic religions for ever. According to islamic doctrine, to spread islam is a duty of every muslim, so they would probably go against their nation if it does anything good to their faith.


Being a resident of india, i have seen in muslim populated areas they burn crackers when pakistan defeats india in cricket matches.

And your statement on pakistan is also incorrect, is intercaste marriage between couples sharing same culture ever possible in pakistan? it is the best example that they value their religion than culture, of cource they love their culture, but it is only second. If culture and nation was primary to them, india-pakistan partition would never been happened.

I just read the English translation for Vande Mataram. I don't know why any scholar would issue a fatwa against it. It is just talking about Mother India, right? I don't put any stock in fatwas, personally. I want to research Islam myself, not just read what someone else thinks. Do you know what I mean?

In Pakistan, maybe it is not, but when you see Pakistanis move to Western countries it's a bit different. I've met quite a few people in Hindu-Muslim, Muslim-Baha'i, etc marriages. I think with a lot of the people though, all they care about is being Muslim in name only, not actually practicing. Again, I think they just see it as being an extension of being Pakistani.

sankar
14 November 2011, 10:31 AM
I just read the English translation for Vande Mataram. I don't know why any scholar would issue a fatwa against it. It is just talking about Mother India, right? I don't put any stock in fatwas, personally. I want to research Islam myself, not just read what someone else thinks. Do you know what I mean?
vande means to bow, mataram means mother. They cant bow before anyone except allah, their explanation is that allah condemns it.

“We did not send the Messenger before you without revealing to him: ‘none has the right to be worshipped except I, therefore worship Me.’” - Holy Quran

I dont think this quran verse would necessarily mean what those islamic scholars say, but if they translates in such manner, no way we can disprove them. Have heard from muslims that quran can be interpreted in many ways, but if people begins to make such translations how would there be any peace in a society?

Im not sure what exactly you mean, cakee..... im very weak in that :D



In Pakistan, maybe it is not, but when you see Pakistanis move to Western countries it's a bit different. I've met quite a few people in Hindu-Muslim, Muslim-Baha'i, etc marriages. I think with a lot of the people though, all they care about is being Muslim in name only, not actually practicing.
same for hindus, but its not anyone's fault.

Again, I think they just see it as being an extension of being Pakistani.
thanks for the information, cakee ... i did not know how the situation in the US is ....

Good luck for your researches ....

Satyaban
16 November 2011, 01:20 AM
Firstly, shame on you for not attempting to address the *original* intent of the OP - that of Paki hatred of Hinduism.

Secondly, why does there need to be any treaty between Muslims and non-Muslims? What would be the contents of this treaty? What would pagan Arabs have to do to break this treaty?

Thirdly, the Hadiths state that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. Do you support it?

Fourthly, what exactly is wrong about Paganism or idolatry or polytheism or Darwinism or any other "isms" out there? Why is only Mohammedanism the true ism out there?

Namaste
Shouldn't we treat Cakee with more love than we are at Muslim sites. Shouldn't we be gentle and loving to a guest as in our home.

I expect she does believe her religion is the truth. I have learned that every religion is "valid" and to be respected whether mine is respected or not, don't misunderstand me I am not saying Cakee does not respect our faith, the truth can be said in many different words and wear many different styles of clothes.

I became a member of a Shia Muslim web site to learn, as Cakee has, and to spread understanding, as I hope Cakee has. At this site I have met Muslims who I consider friends who I respect and I believe they reciprocate. On the flip side I have also be called the vilest of names and accused of all manner of practices but I soldier on and try to be the change I wish for the world.

I don't wish to paint anyone into a corner so let's exercise patience.

Om shanti shanti
Satyaban

wundermonk
16 November 2011, 02:50 AM
Hi Satyaban:

Didnt know you post here also...Nice to meet you here!

As regards OCC, I have developed a soft spot for her now. But the essential points I have made in this thread are still valid. Perhaps I will use *less harsh* words to her. She at least seems to be a bit more open minded than other Xians/Muslims who come on here.

Satyaban
16 November 2011, 03:20 AM
Wundermonk

I haven't been here in a while. I answered the sister's call for help. I appreciate your "softening".

As I said she very well may believe her religion has exclusivity of the truth, that is a hallmark of the abrahamic religions, it is unfortunate but we must accept it.

Spiritualseeker
16 November 2011, 09:22 AM
Namaste,


Firstly, shame on you for not attempting to address the *original* intent of the OP - that of Paki hatred of Hinduism.

There is no doubt that the fuel that the Pakistani government and people use to demonize hinduism comes a lot from the Qur'an and the Sunnah.



Secondly, why does there need to be any treaty between Muslims and non-Muslims? What would be the contents of this treaty? What would pagan Arabs have to do to break this treaty?

This is a strange aspect of Islam. Muslims would make covenants with pagans and jews in order to grow in strength and numbers. When covenants were up or broken they fought them and murdered them everywhere. Now once Islam became a power in itself, such as the rulership of Muhammad, there was offensive Jihad. Offensive Jihad is to fight against the Mushrikin (polytheist which can include ahluh kitab-people of the book). This comes from this ayah:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. 9:29 http://quran.com/9

So if the Muslim army goes to a land that was previously ruled by ahluh kitab (people of the book) then they are given 3 options. 1) Fight and be fought against by the muslims. 2) Accept Islam and thus your blood and wealth will be safe. 3) Pay Jizya a tax with the feeling of being subdued. Now you wont be equal in citizenship (Because a believer in Islamic monotheism has more rights), but you are not fought.

Now let us speak about Hindus and other people that are not included amongst the Jews and christians. They are given two options. 1) Convert to Islam and be safe or 2) Fight and be fought.

Now 'thankfully' in modern times this has been twisted a little bit. The Taliban which means 'the Students' are students of the Deobandi school of thought. They are somewhat strict in terms of monotheism, but they still have elements of Sufism in them. This is not the very eccentric Sufism that has brought love and compassion to the world, as you know the Taliban and Deobandi can be fierce oppressors of Shia, hindus, and others. Anyways without getting too far off topic, they decided to make an exception for the non-jews and non-christian. This is based on the Hanafi school of Jurisprudence where they get their knowledge of jurisprudence. If it were not for their exception then there probably would probably be a 'cleansing' of Afghanistan from the 'polytheist'.

The main point is that offensive Jihad is crime against humanity and it is supported by both Sunni and Shia. The Shia have a different way of viewing this however. They accept offensive Jihad, but they claim that you need an Imam over the muslims (Sunnis agree when it comes to 'offensive jihad'), but to Shia the Imam is divinely ordained by Allah. They come out of the household of Muhammad. So since their 12th Imam (the Mahdi) hasn't really been present (they think he is alive but is similar to their view of Jesus that he is concealed from us till the right time). So therefore Shias would not be able to commit offensive Jihad just yet until their Imam appears out of his thousand year concealment.






Thirdly, the Hadiths state that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. Do you support it?
Not just hadith, but also the Qur'an:

Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment; 16:106 http://quran.com/16

Both Shia and Sunni scholars have agreed upon death for those who change their religion from Islam based on this ayah along with ahadith.

Ali himself who both Sunnis and Shia respect and is a relative to Muhammad killed those who ended up worshiping him and also killed a group of muslims that converted back to christianity. Not even the Divinely Appointed Ruler that Ali was could hide away from his murderous views based on the Qur'an and what he witnessed from Muhammad.



Fourthly, what exactly is wrong about Paganism or idolatry or polytheism or Darwinism or any other "isms" out there? Why is only Mohammedanism the true ism out there?

Jihad literally is the struggle to raise Allah's name uppermost. It is raised uppermost by spreading Islam across the globe, which of course causes an Islamic Imperialism. Muhammads ambitious view was that the whole world will be ruled by Islam one day.


Om Namah Shivaya

Satyaban
17 November 2011, 08:45 PM
[quote=Spiritualseeker;74851]Namaste all,

Oh no here we go again, another Muslim claimingthey don't trust hadith. occif you do not trust hadith then stop doing yourfive daily prayers. The methods in which Muslims perform their prayers in itsdetail five times a day does not come from the Qur'an, but from the hadith. TheQur'an mentions ruku, prostration, etc.. but it does not go into details of howthe prayer is perform. In order to follow this then you have to accept thehadith. If you don’t trust hadith, then stop doing the prayers the way you weretaught.

I see that you posted a link to a Shia Muslimwebsite. As you are a follower of the so called Ahluh Bayt of Muhammad ibnabdullah, then you must have come across your own Shia hadith?

Oh nohere we go again is right. This woman is being treated by some as I am on theweb site she has cited. As I have said before I have been called names that Iwon’t repeat besides a pagan and idol worshipper but the worst is when theyattempt to tell me of my own faith, as I see happening here and not in aconstructive manner. Can we hold her to account for the actions of otherMuslims, I don’t think so. Should we treat her faith with respect, I know so.Should we treat her with respect, I think so she has done nothing to lose it.

Thesenine beliefs I put into practice, far from perfectly, everyday.

1. Ibelieve in the divinity of the Vedas, the world’s most ancient scripture, andvenerate the Agamas as equally revealed. These primordial hymns are God's wordand the bedrock of Sanätana Dharma, the eternal religion which has neitherbeginning nor end.

2. Ibelieve in a one, all-pervasive Supreme Being who is both immanent andtranscendent, both Creator and Unmanifest Reality.

3. Ibelieve that the universe undergoes endless cycles of creation, preservationand dissolution.

4. Ibelieve in karma, the law of cause and effect by which each individual createshis own destiny by his thoughts, words and deeds.

5. Ibelieve that the soul reincarnates, evolving through many births until allkarmas have been resolved, and moksha, spiritual knowledge and liberation fromthe cycle of rebirth, is attained. Not a single soul will be eternally deprivedof this destiny.

6. Ibelieve that divine beings exist in unseen worlds and that temple worship,rituals, sacraments as well as personal devotionals create a communion withthese devas and Gods.

7. Ibelieve that a spiritually awakened master, or satguru, is essential to knowthe Transcendent Absolute, as are personal discipline, good conduct,purification, pilgrimage, self-inquiry and meditation.

8. Ibelieve that all life is sacred, to be loved and revered, and therefore practiceahimsa, "noninjury?'

9. Ibelieve that no particular religion teaches the only way to salvation above allothers, but that all genuine religious paths are facets of God's Pure Love andLight, deserving tolerance and understanding.

Iwould very much appreciate knowledgeable correction on where I misapply thesebeliefs.

Peace

Satyaban
17 November 2011, 09:17 PM
Namaste all,




Oh no here we go again, another muslim claiming they don't trust hadith. occ if you do not trust hadith then stop doing your five daily prayers. The methods in which muslims perform their prayers in its detail five times a day does not come from the Qur'an, but from the hadith. The Qur'an mentions ruku, prostration, etc.. but it does not go into details of how the prayer is perform. In order to follow this then you have to accept the hadith. If you don't trust hadith, then stop doing the prayers the way you were taught.

I see that you posted a link to a Shia Muslim website. As you are a follower of the so called Ahluh Bayt of Muhammad ibn abdullah, then you must have come across your own Shia hadith?

Concerning your claims that the ayaat about Jihad were against those that broke covenants, this is a true statement on your part concerning that particular ayah. However, there are other ayaat of the Quran in Surah Muhammad and Surah 9 and Surah 2 that speak about Jihad not only in defense and against those that break covenants, but also to fight OFFENSIVELY against nations around in order to raise the name of Allah uppermost. That is why Muhammad wanted jews and christians expelled from the peninsula, and wanted war with romans and persians. He also spoke of Islam conquering everywhere. The entire world is Islamic in the eyes of Muhammads prophecy.

Even Imam Ali, who is the leader of Ahluh bayt after Muhammad was a great murderer. This supposed Leader of the Faithful murdered people because they began worshipping him. This is authenticated not only by Sunnis, but also the followers of Ahluh bayt (in ALL Shia sects). What inspired him to do so? Ayaat from the Qur'an concerning killing apostates and those that are polytheist.

Modern Muslim trickery concerning not trusting hadith and so on will not work against a people who truly study the history of Islam. Just like one cannot be tricked who know the history and formation of Christianity.

Om Tryambakam Yajamahe
Sugandhim Pushtivardhanam
Urvarukamiva Bandhanan
Mrityor Mukshiya Maamritat


Oh nohere we go again is right. This woman is being treated by some as I am on theweb site she has cited. As I have said before I have been called names that Iwon’t repeat besides a pagan and idol worshipper but the worst is when theyattempt to tell me of my own faith, as I see happening here and not in aconstructive manner. Can we hold her to account for the actions of otherMuslims, I don’t think so. Should we treat her faith with respect, I know so.Should we treat her with respect, I think so she has done nothing to lose it.

Thesenine beliefs I put into practice, far from perfectly, everyday.

1. Ibelieve in the divinity of the Vedas, the world’s most ancient scripture, andvenerate the Agamas as equally revealed. These primordial hymns are God's wordand the bedrock of Sanätana Dharma, the eternal religion which has neitherbeginning nor end.

2. Ibelieve in a one, all-pervasive Supreme Being who is both immanent andtranscendent, both Creator and Unmanifest Reality.

3. Ibelieve that the universe undergoes endless cycles of creation, preservationand dissolution.

4. Ibelieve in karma, the law of cause and effect by which each individual createshis own destiny by his thoughts, words and deeds.

5. Ibelieve that the soul reincarnates, evolving through many births until allkarmas have been resolved, and moksha, spiritual knowledge and liberation fromthe cycle of rebirth, is attained. Not a single soul will be eternally deprivedof this destiny.

6. Ibelieve that divine beings exist in unseen worlds and that temple worship,rituals, sacraments as well as personal devotionals create a communion withthese devas and Gods.

7. Ibelieve that a spiritually awakened master, or satguru, is essential to knowthe Transcendent Absolute, as are personal discipline, good conduct,purification, pilgrimage, self-inquiry and meditation.

8. Ibelieve that all life is sacred, to be loved and revered, and therefore practiceahimsa, "noninjury?'

9. Ibelieve that no particular religion teaches the only way to salvation above allothers, but that all genuine religious paths are facets of God's Pure Love andLight, deserving tolerance and understanding.

Iwould very much appreciate knowledgeable correction on where I misapply these beliefs.

Peace

Satyaban
17 November 2011, 09:35 PM
My every attempy to correct the two above posts results in failure. I click to edit the post but am not allowed to save my changes, nor can I delete them.
I make corrections in my word processor but when I paste it I wind up runin words.

I give up.

Spiritualseeker
18 November 2011, 09:24 AM
Namaste,


Oh nohere we go again is right. This woman is being treated by some as I am on theweb site she has cited. As I have said before I have been called names that Iwon’t repeat besides a pagan and idol worshipper but the worst is when theyattempt to tell me of my own faith, as I see happening here and not in aconstructive manner. Can we hold her to account for the actions of otherMuslims, I don’t think so. Should we treat her faith with respect, I know so.Should we treat her with respect, I think so she has done nothing to lose it

I am not trying to tell her what her belief is. We all are individuals and many people within religions choose views that are unique to themselves. I encourage ohhcuppycake to continue having these views if she so wishes. I am only pointing out about some of the major figures whom she admires. I mentioned Imam Ali, because she gave us a link to a shia site. I cannot hold her accountable for Imam Ali's terrorism, but I can point out so that people can know. Just because she has her views that do not conform with the terrorism of Muhammad and Ali, doesn't mean I should remain silent. It is not attack against her. I am speaking about Islam. I am also speaking of the major figures that many muslims look up to and admire while at the same time thinking that Muhammad and Ali were not murderers.

Why does these views occur? Quite frankly it is due to ignorance concerning these figures. I can go to a lecture at the Islamic center here and they can tell me how Muhammad was peaceful and how good Islam is. I can commend the congregation for being tolerant, but at the same time I know from experience of learning about Islam that this is not the case. Many Shia claim that the terrorist are 'wahabis' (by this they mean the Salafi sect, but call them Wahabi as an insult because one salafi teacher was Muhammad ibn abdul wahab who supposedly revived Islamic monotheism in Arabia). Now we can all rest and say 'yea just the wahabis', but when I look at even the Shia imams in particular Imam Ali (who is the greatest of the 12 imams), then I see that he is also a terrorist. If im a president and some people begin to worship me and I have them murdered by throwing them into a pit of fire, the world will brand me terrorist. If a group of Muslims converts back to Christianity and I execute them, I will be branded a terrorist. If I take homosexuals and cause a wall of cement to fall upon them to crush them to death, I am going to be branded a terrorist. With that said, I am just pointing out that Muhammad and Ali are a terrorist.

People like to scoff at things that others point out about the Qur'an and Muhammad in a way to deny it. I am glad they are peace loving, but if we are talking about grave issues in which people are being murdered due to following in the foot steps of Muhammad and Imam Ali, then I want to correct this so that other people who read these post don't start thinking, 'oh just the terrorist have misinterpreted" Then they go convert to Islam read about the verse concerning beating ones wife and then try to explain it away in order to justify it. "Oh its just a light hit with a feather!" "Oh you cant leave a mark on your wife when you beat them, yes Islam is peace and give women much rights, its just the terrorist that don't understand"

Perhaps it is arrogance or a bitterness that I point these things out, but I don't want people to experience Islam as I did and be sucked in to such blind, dry, 6th century ideology.

Om Namah Shivaya

Satyaban
19 November 2011, 09:05 AM
Namaste

I think I understand where you are coming from although I have not had your experience with Islam.. Because of that I am not one to offer advice and perhaps I am not qualified to offer anyone advice. However I know a bit about myself and when I hold bitterness in my heart nothing good comes of it so I stress keeping The Nine Hindu Beliefs in front of me along with what I have learned. One thing I do know is that bitterness and hate are feeling that are fed by ego, they are not fact and will pass.

Spiritualseeker
19 November 2011, 11:02 AM
Namaste,

Thank you, I will take your words into my inquiry.


Om Namo Bhagavati Rudraya

charitra
19 November 2011, 11:08 AM
I LIVED in central Iran in a big city for a few years in nineties and witnessed its social life first hand. People live in fear. They are jealous of our freedom , we can travel abroad or leave when we please. People were stoned to death, hanged from bridges in public view, the bodies were left in public view for all to see for a couple of days. Freedom of speech unheard of (watch the (msnbc) news thats making a buzz since yesterday, on Pakistan’s ban of some 1500 words on internet, texting etc.). Man and woman interaction is viewed with suspicion and public flogging was the norm. Jealous men get rid of their wives with false accusations of adultery and see them off to the gallows. Unmarried girls are not supposed to be killed as virgins according to religion; a sepah pasdaar (religious police) first rapes them and only then the hanging takes place. Two different types of judiciary runs in parallel, one similar to what we all know. The other is a completely Islamized one, being superior of the two and functions with a stern finality headed by clerics. Clerics will have their own law enforcement agency with sepah and basij wings ensuring implementation of ‘purity’ in the society. Minorities (Zorashstrians, Bahaiis, Jews and Christians) live in fear; they are jailed or hanged on false charges of spying and drugs. All opponents of regime become drug pushers, spies and simply antiislamists. Same sex relationship and apostasy clearly means death.

Westerners are lured into this faith by disclosing halftruths and, women turn easier victims to this fatal attraction. The teaching inmosques is to attract a nonmuslim into relationship and convert her to Islam with a promise of marriage. The divorce is as easy as uttering the word divorce thrice, other than paying the agreed amount at the time of marriage, leaving not much room for any legal battle over the alimony or kids. Only a cleric can head family courts. Those nonmuslim women who want to marry a muslim must not undergo Islamic marriage for their own safety and must refuse to convert. Remember, the argument is always same: Oh, its just a formality, sign a paper to convert and then sign a contract of marriage, no big deal, all this only to please the family or else the marriage will be viewed as illegal. Women, ironically, always fall for this trap without any exception. Polygamy is religion sanctioned and mind you opposing it is seriously illegal. If wife opposes for a second wife go divorce her. The key is about honoring and paying the severance package agreed upon at the time of wedding, no litigation allowed. Most clerics themselves have multiple wives. They used to encourage us (hindus), ’just get circumcised and get a wife’. Getting a wife is easy. Father’s decision is final in matrimonial alliances; literally one can buy a wife, more money the merrier. Clerics refuse marrying a girl without father's permission regardless of age, on the other hand (young) age is no bar, any child bride can be given away. Girls who refuse marriage (on the day of marriage agreeing is required) will be threatened by parents and brothers, beaten and even branded as of ‘low character’. Terror is the key. Carnal desires of men are quite comfortablysatiated by the all accommodative faith. We are talking about a land where women are allowed to go to college and work. I cant imagine the fate in other lands where women aren’t even allowed these freedoms.

Crime, as we all know, happens everywhere. But the problem here is it is supervised by a cleric. Its not cultural aberrations we are talking about here, its the constitution. Every word Spiritual seeker says is true, the 6th century cruel manual is followed to the last word in ISLAMIC republics (and Islamic ghettoes in innonislamic countries). He studied the scriptures and I witnessed it happening in the street.Those of you challenging us are inadvertently helping the crime to perpetuate and go uncorrected. Calling this hate speech tantamounts to opposing human rights. Namaste.

Satyaban
19 November 2011, 03:01 PM
Namaste charitra

I believe every word you said but fail to see the relationship to text books in Pakistan. Can you help me out by explaining the relationship.

I have not read a translation of any Pakistani text books but would not be surprised if they are not accurate in history or use racist stories in reading and language class because it is institutionalized. I do not doubt for a minute it is much worse in the mandrasses who I understand are supported by KSA money. But I don't know what we can do about it does anyone else?

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 07:22 PM
I LIVED in central Iran in a big city for a few years in nineties and witnessed its social life first hand. People live in fear. They are jealous of our freedom , we can travel abroad or leave when we please. People were stoned to death, hanged from bridges in public view, the bodies were left in public view for all to see for a couple of days. Freedom of speech unheard of (watch the (msnbc) news thats making a buzz since yesterday, on Pakistan’s ban of some 1500 words on internet, texting etc.). Man and woman interaction is viewed with suspicion and public flogging was the norm. Jealous men get rid of their wives with false accusations of adultery and see them off to the gallows. Unmarried girls are not supposed to be killed as virgins according to religion; a sepah pasdaar (religious police) first rapes them and only then the hanging takes place. Two different types of judiciary runs in parallel, one similar to what we all know. The other is a completely Islamized one, being superior of the two and functions with a stern finality headed by clerics. Clerics will have their own law enforcement agency with sepah and basij wings ensuring implementation of ‘purity’ in the society. Minorities (Zorashstrians, Bahaiis, Jews and Christians) live in fear; they are jailed or hanged on false charges of spying and drugs. All opponents of regime become drug pushers, spies and simply antiislamists. Same sex relationship and apostasy clearly means death.

I wouldn't use Iran as the best example of an Islamic republic. Honestly, I wouldn't use anything. No such thing as what would be considered the proper Islamic republic (though I don't agree with theocracies to begin with). As for the death sentence for homosexuality and apostasy, this is not found in the Qur'an.


Westerners are lured into this faith by disclosing halftruths and, women turn easier victims to this fatal attraction. The teaching inmosques is to attract a nonmuslim into relationship and convert her to Islam with a promise of marriage. The divorce is as easy as uttering the word divorce thrice, other than paying the agreed amount at the time of marriage, leaving not much room for any legal battle over the alimony or kids. Only a cleric can head family courts. Those nonmuslim women who want to marry a muslim must not undergo Islamic marriage for their own safety and must refuse to convert. Remember, the argument is always same: Oh, its just a formality, sign a paper to convert and then sign a contract of marriage, no big deal, all this only to please the family or else the marriage will be viewed as illegal. Women, ironically, always fall for this trap without any exception. Polygamy is religion sanctioned and mind you opposing it is seriously illegal. If wife opposes for a second wife go divorce her. The key is about honoring and paying the severance package agreed upon at the time of wedding, no litigation allowed. Most clerics themselves have multiple wives. They used to encourage us (hindus), ’just get circumcised and get a wife’. Getting a wife is easy. Father’s decision is final in matrimonial alliances; literally one can buy a wife, more money the merrier. Clerics refuse marrying a girl without father's permission regardless of age, on the other hand (young) age is no bar, any child bride can be given away. Girls who refuse marriage (on the day of marriage agreeing is required) will be threatened by parents and brothers, beaten and even branded as of ‘low character’. Terror is the key. Carnal desires of men are quite comfortablysatiated by the all accommodative faith. We are talking about a land where women are allowed to go to college and work. I cant imagine the fate in other lands where women aren’t even allowed these freedoms.

The teachings in mosques? I would really like to know what mosques you have been to. As my myself, I converted for no man. I did later get engaged, but he converted to Islam after I did. Divorce is practiced like that in Sunni Islam, as for Shi'a Islam, there must be witnesses when a divorce takes place and it's not as simple as that. As for polygamy, women can ask for a monogamy clause in her marriage contract. If he takes a second wife, it is easy for the woman to divorce. Polygamy is rarely practiced in the Western world. I have yet to come across it in the Muslim community here. At the mosques I go to, they always teach that we must obey the law of the land. Marriage against the will of the bride is absolutely haram in Islam. You do see this happen though, but let us remember that it happens in much of South Asia, regardless of religion. As for child marriages, again, Muslims should abide by the law of the land and that is what taught. Child marriages must be eradicated.

devotee
19 November 2011, 08:47 PM
As my myself, I converted for no man. I did later get engaged, but he converted to Islam after I did.

You converted to Islam ? I thought you were born a Muslim. I feel compassion towards you. I am saying this because I have read Q'uran and I have lived with Muslims for sufficient time. They camouflage a lot of things when they try to convince you to convert but in practice, it is very-very different in their world. Imo, the good Muslims are good not because of Q'uran and Ahadith. They are good in spite of these.

OM

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 09:38 PM
You converted to Islam ? I thought you were born a Muslim. I feel compassion towards you. I am saying this because I have read Q'uran and I have lived with Muslims for sufficient time. They camouflage a lot of things when they try to convince you to convert but in practice, it is very-very different in their world. Imo, the good Muslims are good not because of Q'uran and Ahadith. They are good in spite of these.

OM

Yes, I converted to Islam. I was Christian before, but had some pretty unorthodox beliefs. I will say this...There is a difference between personal religion and organized religion, if they makes any sense. By the way, I learned about Islam through reading the Qur'an myself, not by talking to Muslims. I only knew one Muslim at the time and he had no idea about his religion. I found pure monotheism and the structure I craved in Islam. Islam helped me become close to God and cure my existential depression. Just gonna say this. Incredibly religious, and I mean in the sense they are very strict, people tend to all be narrow-minded. Strict Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus...seem to all be insufferable and narrow-minded. I'm on Hindu, Christian, Sikh, and Muslim forums and basically, you all are all crazy!!! I go on here..."Muslims are horrible." I go on Christian forums..."Muslims are horrible. Hindus are crazy." I go on Sikh forums..."Hindus and Muslims are horrible!"...And on Muslim forums..."Christians are horrible!!" You are all crazy. I swear, it almost makes me hate all religion. All hypocrisy. People claim to believe so strongly in God and the virtues their religion teaches, but can't even show simple respect and kindness.

devotee
19 November 2011, 09:49 PM
Yes, I converted to Islam. I was Christian before, but had some pretty unorthodox beliefs. I will say this...There is a difference between personal religion and organized religion, if they makes any sense. By the way, I learned about Islam through reading the Qur'an myself, not by talking to Muslims. I only knew one Muslim at the time and he had no idea about his religion. I found pure monotheism and the structure I craved in Islam. Islam helped me become close to God and cure my existential depression. Just gonna say this. Incredibly religious, and I mean in the sense they are very strict, people tend to all be narrow-minded. Strict Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus...seem to all be insufferable and narrow-minded. I'm on Hindu, Christian, Sikh, and Muslim forums and basically, you all are all crazy!!! I go on here..."Muslims are horrible." I go on Christian forums..."Muslims are horrible. Hindus are crazy." I go on Sikh forums..."Hindus and Muslims are horrible!"...And on Muslim forums..."Christians are horrible!!" You are all crazy. I swear, it almost makes me hate all religion. All hypocrisy. People claim to believe so strongly in God and the virtues their religion teaches, but can't even show simple respect and kindness.

Sorry, if I hurt you with my words. Please keep one thing in mind ... Hindus never ask you to convert, so I have no such incentive to misguide you. I don't hate Muslims but you will realise what I am saying one day ... InsAllAh. :)

OM

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 09:55 PM
Sorry, if I hurt you with my words. Please keep one thing in mind ... Hindus never ask you to convert, so I have no such incentive to misguide you. I don't hate Muslims but you will realise what I am saying one day ... InsAllAh. :)

OM

No, I think not. I am proud to say I hold no hatred in my heart for others, no matter how much ignorance and narrow-mindedness is out there. And I never will. I work hard not to generalize, not to hate. (Makes me think of a Bible quote. "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you, and persecute you.") My heart is pure, but I can't say that about many of you. You're just as insufferable as the people you despise.

devotee
19 November 2011, 10:03 PM
My heart is pure

I can feel it in your posts.


but I can't say that about many of you.

No one can say anything about any one. We don't know even ourselves & therefore any claim to know "others" is false.


You're just as insufferable as the people you despise.

I am sorry. BTW, I don't despise Muslims, I feel compassion for them. May be I am totally wrong. You (including any Muslim) are free to have your own opinion about me. :(

OM

Spiritualseeker
19 November 2011, 10:03 PM
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. Surah 4 ayah 34

Not from hadith, but from the Qur'an. Even if we take the Book itself there is many things we have to explain away.

Om Namah Sivaya

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 10:07 PM
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. Surah 4 ayah 34

Not from hadith, but from the Qur'an.

Om Namah Sivaya

Oh, so I should just stop being Muslim now...? Spare me please.

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 10:09 PM
I can feel it in your posts.

No one can say anything about any one. We don't know even ourselves & therefore any claim to know "others" is false.

I am sorry. BTW, I don't despise Muslims, I feel compassion for them. May be I am totally wrong. You (including any Muslim) are free to have your own opinion about me. :(

OM

Compassion...? I think that's even worse...I think I'd rather have someone hate me with all their heart and soul than condescendingly feel sorry for me.

Spiritualseeker
19 November 2011, 10:14 PM
Namaste,

No you can be Muslim, but if you think people are demonizing Muslims, then I think you are mistaken. You mentioned that killing homosexuals is not in the Qur'an (even though the Qur'an mentions Allaah killing the people of Lot). So straight from the Qur'an itself which is 'perfect', we have this verse on hitting women. We should accept it because it comes from the perfect book.

Om Namah Sivaya

devotee
19 November 2011, 10:17 PM
Compassion...? I think that's even worse...I think I'd rather have someone hate me with all their heart and soul than condescendingly feel sorry for me.

Please forget whatever I said and forgive me. :)

OM

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 10:19 PM
Please forget whatever I said and forgive me. :)

OM

I hold no ill feelings towards you, no worries! I am not that sort of person.

ohhcuppycakee
19 November 2011, 10:23 PM
Namaste,

No you can be Muslim, but if you think people are demonizing Muslims, then I think you are mistaken. You mentioned that killing homosexuals is not in the Qur'an (even though the Qur'an mentions Allaah killing the people of Lot). So straight from the Qur'an itself which is 'perfect', we have this verse on hitting women. We should accept it because it comes from the perfect book.

Om Namah Sivaya

If my religion is horrible and has errors, so does yours. When your religion is absolutely perfect and has no problems, then you can start to judge mine! Reminds me of yet another verse...First cast out the beam out of your own eye and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye. I have no interest in talking to you. So please, just spare me.
:)

charitra
20 November 2011, 12:27 AM
At first I thought I should nt answer you, but I didn’t wantyou to feel ignored.
Everything that happens in any ISLAMIC republic is happening because of what is written in the texts not in spite ofwhats written in them. Since I am told by ALL Iranians so, I believed so, how dare they contest the sacred book; unless youchoose to say it is a great case of global misinterpretation of the texts. For me Mohammed’s personal life was enough of a treat, hence I didn’t bother to go any further (reading wise). BTW Ididnt have to go to a mosque, it came to my home. For, everyregular TV channel kept beaming the mullahs’ sermons round the clock, mostly a direct telecast from Qom mosque (know what it is?).

Below are some out of the context examples preaching how a muslim can beat his wife,again if you think they are misinterpreting the texts, you can argue with the scholars instead, go ahead watch the footage. If you don’tlike a theocratic state then by default youare not a good muslim, only a theocratic state followsthe prophet’s preaching correctly, all other lands are kuffr by the same token. US and India by thosestandards are kaffir lands, not ideal for muslims. Finally there are many good Iranians living a life ofhardship there, all self inflicted, thanks to mohammed. Why the majority cant remove theocracy? Any ideas?As I said elsewhere, it is appropriate for you to argue with your coreligionists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Ali Sina,Taslima Nasreen (google) etc. who are currently living as refugees in Christian and hindu lands.

Some more info you haven’t heard of would merit mention here: Temporary contract marriages (nikah mutah). A mullah performs a short termmarriage with the contract explicitly spelling both the beginning date and end date of marriage. The man andwoman must settle for a ‘prenuptial amount’ before entering the contract. Themarriage automatically becomes null and void after the said date. It can run a few hours to few months. All within the shia faith fold. Rich men make frequent trips to big towns.

The issues Iamtouching upon here are whats practiced on a daily basis in the street (in perfect conformity to thereligion). I am not bringing up some obscure rare verse thats lying in a remote corner of a large book,which is currently not practiced. Now about following the book. Where would you stop can I ask?Wearing a scarf- should it be left to choice or should even hindu and Christian women wear them, as is enforced in Iran (shia) and Saudi (sunni)lands? Why the majority cant overpower the miniscule minority muslims who are (allegedly) the baddies there, anyideas? So by deduction, it is force and not compassion that is the name of the game then, agree? Please don’tmake this debate hilarious by saying, ‘oh, no that wont happen here (in usa)’. Freedom of all citizens is defended here, we all know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do&feature=fvwrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do&feature=fvwrel)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9cAa6SP79M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPSN_92v2w&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfPSN_92v2w&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Wp3Eam5FX58 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Wp3Eam5FX58)



I wouldn't use Iran as the best example of an Islamic republic. Honestly, I wouldn't use anything. No such thing as what would be considered the proper Islamic republic (though I don't agree with theocracies to begin with). As for the death sentence for homosexuality and apostasy, this is not found in the Qur'an.
The teachings in mosques? I would really like to know what mosques you have been to. As my myself, I converted for no man. I did later get engaged, but he converted to Islam after I did. Divorce is practiced like that in Sunni Islam, as for Shi'a Islam, there must be witnesses when a divorce takes place and it's not as simple as that. As for polygamy, women can ask for a monogamy clause in her marriage contract. If he takes a second wife, it is easy for the woman to divorce. Polygamy is rarely practiced in the Western world. I have yet to come across it in the Muslim community here. At the mosques I go to, they always teach that we must obey the law of the land. Marriage against the will of the bride is absolutely haram in Islam. You do see this happen though, but let us remember that it happens in much of South Asia, regardless of religion. As for child marriages, again, Muslims should abide by the law of the land and that is what taught. Child marriages must be eradicated.

wundermonk
20 November 2011, 12:47 AM
Dear OCC:

You are having a tough time here because even though you proclaim Islam is not at fault, other posters here are able to provide direct quotations from your books:

(a)Allah's slaughtering of homosexuals.
(b)Imam Ali's slaughtering of those who worshipped him.
(c)Mohammed's sanctioning of killing apostates.

Now, when faced with these facts [which are taken from your own books] to set the record straight, you have three options:

(1)reinterpret these verses in a metaphorical sense, if possible.
(2)claim that these are extrapolations.
(3)acknowledge that morality is subjective and that the Quran/Hadiths do not have truths that are valid for all of humankind for all times to come. In essence you would have to acknowledge here that the Quran is a document that contains stuff describing 7th century Arabia and these are no longer relevant in the 21st century.

It appears that you are unwilling to do any of these but are keen on showing us how terrible Hinduism is.

Let me ask you for a favour. You say that you are a member of other Muslim forums. Could you please start a thread on such forums asking your fellow Muslims what their opinions are on freedom of religion and most importantly, separation of mosque and state? You seem to believe in freedom of religion [although I could be wrong] but many [I guess majority - although I would be happy to be pleasantly surprised and proven wrong on this] of your co-religionists may not. In their eyes, Hinduism is the worst of religions because we Hindus are "polytheists" and commit shirk [assigning partners to Allah]. May I request you to champion the cause of liberal progressive ideals in Islamic forums instead of trying to portray a benign picture of Islam here on HDF? Once you do so, please provide a link here. I would love to see you take on the extremists within Islam.

India's own personal experience with Islam has been nothing short of gruesome and hence I think we are right in questioning those who claim this is an aberration in an otherwise spotless track record of Islam.

ohhcuppycakee
20 November 2011, 01:20 AM
At first I thought I should nt answer you, but I didn’t wantyou to feel ignored.
Everything that happens in any ISLAMIC republic is happening because of what is written in the texts not in spite ofwhats written in them. Since I am told by ALL Iranians so, I believed so, how dare they contest the sacred book; unless youchoose to say it is a great case of global misinterpretation of the texts. For me Mohammed’s personal life was enough of a treat, hence I didn’t bother to go any further (reading wise). BTW Ididnt have to go to a mosque, it came to my home. For, everyregular TV channel kept beaming the mullahs’ sermons round the clock, mostly a direct telecast from Qom mosque (know what it is?).

I'm sorry, but the interpretations of scholars are not infallible, though some ignorant people believe so. Many of them are power hungry. I wouldn't be surprised if scholars pushed this idea of an Islamic state for their own desires...!


Below are some out of the context examples preaching how a muslim can beat his wife,again if you think they are misinterpreting the texts, you can argue with the scholars instead, go ahead watch the footage. If you don’tlike a theocratic state then by default youare not a good muslim, only a theocratic state followsthe prophet’s preaching correctly, all other lands are kuffr by the same token. US and India by thosestandards are kaffir lands, not ideal for muslims. Finally there are many good Iranians living a life ofhardship there, all self inflicted, thanks to mohammed. Why the majority cant remove theocracy? Any ideas?As I said elsewhere, it is appropriate for you to argue with your coreligionists like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Ali Sina,Taslima Nasreen (google) etc. who are currently living as refugees in Christian and hindu lands.

Hahaha. I don't others idea of other's ideas of what a good Muslim is dictate how I act and what my beliefs are. I am only answerable to God, not them, after all.


Some more info you haven’t heard of would merit mention here: Temporary contract marriages (nikah mutah). A mullah performs a short termmarriage with the contract explicitly spelling both the beginning date and end date of marriage. The man andwoman must settle for a ‘prenuptial amount’ before entering the contract. Themarriage automatically becomes null and void after the said date. It can run a few hours to few months. All within the shia faith fold. Rich men make frequent trips to big towns.

Lol. Yes, I have certainly heard of nikah mutah. Mutah can be abused just like permanent marriage can. And sadly, it is abused far too often. It is very good for people who want to get married and keep from fornicating, but cannot afford a regular marriage. There are also other people who contract mutah (and do nothing sexually, you can specify that) so they can get to know the person they are engaged to and hang out together alone without their family. I know a few girls that have done this for this reason, and so have I.


The issues Iamtouching upon here are whats practiced on a daily basis in the street (in perfect conformity to thereligion). I am not bringing up some obscure rare verse thats lying in a remote corner of a large book,which is currently not practiced. Now about following the book. Where would you stop can I ask?Wearing a scarf- should it be left to choice or should even hindu and Christian women wear them, as is enforced in Iran (shia) and Saudi (sunni)lands? Why the majority cant overpower the miniscule minority muslims who are (allegedly) the baddies there, anyideas? So by deduction, it is force and not compassion that is the name of the game then, agree? Please don’tmake this debate hilarious by saying, ‘oh, no that wont happen here (in usa)’. Freedom of all citizens is defended here, we all know.

I already told you I do not agree with theocracies. I believe a woman's wardrobe should be her business and her business alone.

ohhcuppycakee
20 November 2011, 01:29 AM
It appears that you are unwilling to do any of these but are keen on showing us how terrible Hinduism is.

I have no problem with Hinduism and I know you know that. If I did I probably wouldn't read the Bhagavad Gita regularly or post on this forum. There are many aspects of Hinduism that I have great respect for. I mentioned people that are non-Hindu being below the caste system to demonstrate that almost all religions out there treat non-adherents differently.


Let me ask you for a favour. You say that you are a member of other Muslim forums. Could you please start a thread on such forums asking your fellow Muslims what their opinions are on freedom of religion and most importantly, separation of mosque and state? You seem to believe in freedom of religion [although I could be wrong] but many [I guess majority - although I would be happy to be pleasantly surprised and proven wrong on this] of your co-religionists may not. In their eyes, Hinduism is the worst of religions because we Hindus are "polytheists" and commit shirk [assigning partners to Allah]. May I request you to champion the cause of liberal progressive ideals in Islamic forums instead of trying to portray a benign picture of Islam here on HDF? Once you do so, please provide a link here. I would love to see you take on the extremists within Islam.

The type of people that like to post on religious forums, are generally not the type of people that are willing to listen to anyone. I'm learning this right now posting on this site. I feel like everything goes through one ear and out the other. :( Maybe I am not articulate enough. I do believe in freedom of religion! How many times do I have to say this...?

ohhcuppycakee
20 November 2011, 01:36 AM
I don't think I'm going to post here anymore. Nothing I say matters anyways. God bless

wundermonk
20 November 2011, 02:09 AM
I don't think I'm going to post here anymore.

Take this in the right spirit - I frankly feel that would be good too.

The chasm between Hinduism and Abrahamic religions is simply too vast.

Hinduism has no belief in Adam/Eve, messiahs, prophets, progressive revelation and death penalty for apostasy. Hinduism doesnt believe there is only one way/means to attain Moksha.

There is no common meeting ground between Hinduism and Islam.

Spiritualseeker
20 November 2011, 08:06 AM
Namaste,


If my religion is horrible and has errors, so does yours. When your religion is absolutely perfect and has no problems, then you can start to judge mine! Reminds me of yet another verse...First cast out the beam out of your own eye and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye. I have no interest in talking to you. So please, just spare me.

No one is converting you to another religion. You think that people are just thinking bad of muslims. All we are doing is showing proof from the book that you revere. It seems like you want to ignore these things. This is a big ball of contradiction within you. You want to be a 'moderate', so you want to put your head in the sand when it comes to all these verses that cast a bad light on Islam. Then you wonder why people are mentioning Iran and other nations that have a big Islamic influence and thus they have oppression. When we point that you you state its not in the Qur'an. Then we show you and you run away. I am quite content with my path and I do not need to call people to it, but it seems you are not quite certain about yours.



I don't think I'm going to post here anymore. Nothing I say matters anyways. God bless
This is probably, because you cannot accept what is in your Book and thus you run around in circles trying to convince people that Islam is peace.


Om Namah Sivaya

NayaSurya
20 November 2011, 10:29 AM
Cuppee cakes, I crochet a hat and named it after you many weeks ago. Lately I crochet tiny cuppee cakes that are hollow inside and the lid is the top of cupcake then I crochet tiny mice puppets with pink ears, pink tales and shiny green eyes to place inside these cute pink icing cupee cakes. Then I tell the xtians at the holiday craft show that it was because of Oh Cuppee Cakes!

Had to tell you this before I go further.

Cuppeecakes, each one of us was born in a box of our culture and religion which is given to us by our parents. This box can become damaged when we come into contact with Beings which are further along in the journey in this incarnation.

Many many years ago, my box was shattered by exposure to good Asian families living beside us on military base.

So I am here to gently warn you, as I have many curious ones coming to forum of different beliefs...please...understand no one mean you harm...but by being here you may become altered from the peace you have found for yourself.

This very much remind me of my beautiful Beloved daughter whom wakes up in the middle of the night when she hear our kirtan and say "I am not tired" and I have to place her back inside bed. Because she really is tired and it's not healthy for her to be up late on school night.

It was my fault you see, by playing this music she was disturbed...and by being here I do fear this also cause you sadness.

I do not see islam as even a religion as it controls people, the way they dress...and think. Can not question it. Just as other cults...such as jehova witness any religion you can not question can not think for yourself..or choose your own clothes...or leave your home without male escort, or even want to leave the religion itself!

I would die before I allow a child in my home to fall victim to such a cult.

But, all of these comments and observation about islam does not matter with you, as I can not change your path and I would never try.

With all my heart I wish you well Beloved.

But, with all my heart I do know SD as one of the final destinations and I deeply am concerned about any whom wander in here so deeply entrenched within that earlier step would become irrevocably altered by your exposure here.


Just as the child and the mother are the same...you and others here are also.

But, as much as we are the same, we are also different as the mother has been on the path far longer.

This is why wiser portion teach the newer ones.

The average first grade student is a student...but would never place him in Algebra class as this would very greatly disturb him...so as much as he is the same...he is also different in his ability to understand deeper concepts.

Does not make the first grade child dumber than Senior. It make him first grader and we should allow that one to be in the place meant for him.

With love,

Lanie<3

first grade student of SD

sankar
20 November 2011, 11:29 AM
My heart is pure

and full of courage :), it makes you stay here after being a target for a few. Happy to find you not generalizing us, and enjoying here.

yajvan
20 November 2011, 12:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



Hinduism has no belief in Adam/Eve, messiahs, prophets
I do not wish to take your words out of context and want to assure you this is case with this offering.

From a ~ hindu~ point of view we can see the relevence of adam and eve. It is symbolizm for śiva and śakti - pure Being and energy. And for prophets we have many and call them saints, ṛṣi-s or muni's. And for messiah's - it is considered a liberator , some like to say a chosen one. We associate it with the Christian view , yet for me I see otherwise. To be liberated is to leave behind ignorance, moha and dullness. What does the guru bring ? liberation. So, pending one's frame of reference these words are just other forms of our own
sanātana dharma.

Yet for me it not so much the words, but the actions one subscribes to. Does one's actions bear friut and uphold evolution ? Does it increase and work within the life supporting goals of nature or does it tear it down ? Is one's actions driven to more seperateness or does it find unity in the mist of diversity ?

praṇām

Satyaban
21 November 2011, 11:52 AM
How Do Saivites Regard Other Faiths?

Religious beliefs are manifold and different. Saivites, understanding the strength ofthis diversity, wholeheartedly respect and encourage all who believe in God.They honor the fact that Truth is one, paths are many. Aum.

Bhashya

Since the inner intent of all religions is to bind man back to God, Saivite Hindusseek not to interfere with anyone's faith or practice. We believe that there is no exclusive path, no one way for all. Saivites profoundly know that God Sivais the same Supreme Being in whom peoples of all faiths find solace, peace and liberation. Nonetheless, we realize that all religions are not the same. Each has its unique beliefs, practices, goals and paths of attainment, and the doctrines of one often conflict with those of another. Even this should never be cause for religious tension or intolerance. Saivites respect all religious traditions and the people within them. They know that good citizens and stable societies are created from groups of religious people. Saivite leaders support and participate in ecumenical gatherings with all religions. Still, Saivites defend their faith, proceed contentedly with their practices and avoid the enchantment of other ways, be they ancient or modern. The Vedas explain, "Let us have concord with our own people, and concord with people who are strangers to us. Ashvins, create between us and the strangers a unity of hearts."Aum Namah Sivaya.
Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

I am embarrassed by how this woman is being treated. Some of you are no better than some Muslims in the way you treat people. This thread started out as something quite different from what it is now. Why gang up on this woman? You all have reminded me why I stayed away. This is disgusting.

Satyaban
21 November 2011, 12:13 PM
Wundermonk

"Let me ask you for a favour. You say that you are a member of other Muslim forums. Could you please start a thread on such forums asking your fellow Muslims what their opinions are on freedom of religion and most importantly, separation of mosque and state?"

Why don't you start the thread yourself?

There is knowledge that comes from books that can be recited like a parrot but if it is not know to the heart it is only academic.