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wundermonk
20 November 2011, 05:38 AM
Story here (http://www.wfpl.org/2011/11/01/williams-beshear-worships-false-gods/).

OK. So, we Indians are narrow minded because most of us are uneducated, malnourished and poor inhabitants of the IIIrd world. But such classy comments from a person aspiring to a gubernatorial position in the USA makes me want to reassess the definition of narrow mindedness and broad mindedness.


Republican gubernatorial candidate David Williams ratcheted up criticism of Democratic incumbent Steve Beshear for participating in a Hindu religious ceremony, accusing the governor of worshipping “false gods.”

The state Senate President slammed Behsear on Tuesday for being involved in “polytheistic situations” during a groundbreaking last week, where he joined community leaders in a Hindu service to celebrate the opening of new Indian-owned company.

After the speech, Williams, R-Burkesville, said he wasn’t being critical of those who are Hindu and that he would allow a Hindu priest to give the invocation on the floor of the state Senate. But he said he “wouldn’t pray with them. … You wouldn’t see people there putting dots on their forehead and participating, incense and prayers to false gods. And that’s what he’s done.”

According to the newspaper, Williams also criticized the governor for the Department of Education advising an Eastern Kentucky high school against having organized prayer before football games.

Adhvagat
20 November 2011, 05:54 AM
I'd pay a ticket to see this guy explaining (or trying to) why the Hindu divinities are false and the Christian divinities are real.

:rolleyes:

Spiritualseeker
20 November 2011, 08:28 AM
Namaste,

Everything from Jesus dying for our sins, dying on the cross, ressurecting in 3 days, raising the dead, riding to town on a donkey, eating the body of christ, drinking the blood of christ, and so on all came from pre-existing myths concerning Osiris, Dionysis, Bacchus, Mithras, and a host of other 'false' deities. America is doomed with the Republican influence, yet I hear many around me sing praise to these thieves.

Om Namah Sivaya

Eastern Mind
20 November 2011, 09:07 AM
Vannakkam: I'm just incredibly grateful all the time that these guys don't have a majority of the people with them. There are enough moderates who still believe in religious and other freedoms that when a guy like Williams comes open and public about his real extremist views, he's basically writing his own ticket for the train to the place of former politicians.

There are places (Arab world, Malaysia, states in Africa) where the ultra conservative do hold a majority. I can't imagine being a minority in such a place. I would be packing my bags.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
20 November 2011, 10:15 AM
Stupid is as stupid does with these people. They are not taken seriously and never even get to the debates. There's no reason to get into an uproar about them. They have no clout and are just spouting stupidity. Educated and/or honest hardworking Americans don't pay any attention to this drivel. Most Americans care about the economy, getting by day to day, and not losing their jobs and homes. What some yokel thinks about Hindu divinities is the furthest thing from most Americans' minds.

UniversalLove
20 November 2011, 10:18 AM
I disagree strongly with him on the Hindu Gods being false, but I don't think his intolerance of them has anything to do with his religion in and of itself. I think it has more to do with how he interprets his religion and what he gets out of it. Someone can follow the Christian religion (or any other certain religion) and still be accepting of different religions and cultures.

There are several analogies people use. Suppose you are a teacher and you give your students a literary work of some sort (like a poem or book). All of them will have different interpretations of what it means in one way or another.

Let's take Christianity, for example, since we're talking about it. Yes, there are several places in the Bible talking about violence, "false gods/idols", salvation, hell, etc. But is Christianity necessarily all about those things? It depends on how you see it.

Personally, when I read the Bible, I like to read about Jesus portrayed in the Gospels. I especially like to read about how he healed people, taught about living a life practicing values like mercy, kindness, righteousness, etc., and how he spent time with people who were oppressed and considered "sinners" in his society.

(And, by the way, whether or not the story of Jesus was fabricated and stolen from myths and other religions does NOT matter to me at all.)

After I read about these things and meditate on them, I find opportunities in my life where I can put them into practice.

So, for me, the "Christian life" is all about loving everyone without exception.

If there are Christians who focus mainly on the "salvation" aspect, why can't there be Christians who focus on the teachings of sincere love, kindness, service, etc.?

It all depends on personal interpretation and what you decide to do as a result from learning from your religion. All of us can be instruments of kindness or of hatred and intolerance.

Friend from the West
20 November 2011, 12:22 PM
Hari Om,

I am grateful that do not think this is majority view and this country of U.S.A., with all of its imperfections, still has real protections for religious freedom written into its governances.

Om Shanti.

FFTW

sanjaya
20 November 2011, 08:29 PM
Story here (http://www.wfpl.org/2011/11/01/williams-beshear-worships-false-gods/).

OK. So, we Indians are narrow minded because most of us are uneducated, malnourished and poor inhabitants of the IIIrd world. But such classy comments from a person aspiring to a gubernatorial position in the USA makes me want to reassess the definition of narrow mindedness and broad mindedness.

Yeah, well, this just goes to show that protestations of secularism notwithstanding, America is indeed a Christian nation. Christianity is the de facto state religion, and currently Hinduism isn't given the same respect as Christianity. I have to love how this person equivocates by saying that he "wasn’t being critical of those who are Hindu." In church he hears all about how the heathen Hindus need to be converted. In public he poorly attempts to temper his beliefs by saying that it's acceptable for Hindus to respect Hinduism, as long as Christians don't. This reminds me of certan Islamic theocracies where other religions are allowed to exist; non-Muslims can convert to Islam, but the reverse may never happen (not that I'm out to convert anyone to Hinduism). Essentially he admits his belief that Christianity ought to be the only religion that exists, and that he is gracious enough to tolerate us.

This is largely the fault of Indians, particularly Indian Americans, for our gross apathy. Indians comprise about the same percentage of the American population as Jews. Somehow Judaism has ingrained itself into the culture to the point where it would be political suicide for any public official to criticize it, but the same is not true of Hinduism. Indian Americans are economically and intellectually as well-to-do as Jews. It's time we start amassing political power to the point where our religion cannot be criticized by anyone without dire consequences. The ADL would have slapped this guy with a lawsuit and made him politically unviable. It's terribly unfortunate that Hindu Americans don't have equivalent political clout, especially given that we have the money and education to obtain it.

sm78
21 November 2011, 01:06 AM
This is largely the fault of Indians, particularly Indian Americans, for our gross apathy. Indians comprise about the same percentage of the American population as Jews. Somehow Judaism has ingrained itself into the culture to the point where it would be political suicide for any public official to criticize it, but the same is not true of Hinduism. Indian Americans are economically and intellectually as well-to-do as Jews. It's time we start amassing political power to the point where our religion cannot be criticized by anyone without dire consequences. The ADL would have slapped this guy with a lawsuit and made him politically unviable. It's terribly unfortunate that Hindu Americans don't have equivalent political clout, especially given that we have the money and education to obtain it.

Yes, this was a serious example of an undercurrent of intolerance that some people might have, and conceptually his views are no different from an Ayotollah of Iran as you have pointed. Indians in America indeed need to build up the due polictical clout in a society dominated by judeo-christian lobby. What is the aftermath of his remarks? Has anybody protested? Anyone thinking of lawsuits, defamation etc?

wundermonk
21 November 2011, 08:45 AM
Hi sm78:

To be fair, he was lambasted by other Christian Ameicans (?) themselves.

The whole story just goes to show that bigotry is not an exclusive possession of one race/religion. Likewise, there are level headed fair-minded persons who condemn such bigotry in all races/religions.

Full story on that here (http://www.dailypioneer.com/sunday-edition/agenda/2011-08-28-14-47-54/21615-penniless-in-pennsylvania.html).


Praying to false Gods

A Republican politician has got the goat of America’s Hindu community with his uncharitable references to their faith in the run-up to the just-concluded Kentucky gubernatorial race. The target of Republican challenger David Williams may have been incumbent Democrat Steve Beshear, but he made some disparaging comments about the Hindu faith that has angered members of the community.

State Senate president Williams, who failed in his bid to dislodge Beshear, lambasted the Governor for participating in a Hindu prayer ceremony days ahead of the election, remarking that the Governor was worshipping “false Gods”. The Governor was attending a bhoomi puja ceremony at a plant being set up by an Indian company in Elizabeth town, Kentucky with the promise of creating 250 jobs.

“I don’t participate in Hindu prayers. I don’t participate in Muslim prayers. I don't do that. To get down and get involved and participate in prayers to these polytheistic situations, where you have these Hindu gods that they are praying to, doesn’t appear to me to be in line with what a Governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky ought to be doing,” Williams commented and sought to ridicule Governor Beshear for wearing “a Hindu dot on his forehead” and sitting cross-legged without shoes as the Hindu priests chanted prayers.

The Washington-based Hindu American Foundation fired off a statement, with its managing director Suhag Shukla saying: “If he’s essentially made a call to Hindus in Kentucky that his hope is that they find Jesus Christ, that is just absolutely unacceptable, and he owes Hindus not only in Kentucky but in the United States and around the world an apology.” Shukla conveyed to Williams that his comments were “deeply offensive to Hindus” and that they had received emails and phone calls of solidarity from many other Christians who disagree with the Senator’s comments.

The American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin (AAPI) also slammed Williams for his “intolerant remarks directed toward Hindus”. “We are shocked in this day and age of pluralism and tolerance, that such a backward mentality exists in such a highly-elected official anywhere in America,” commented AAPI president Dr Sunita Kanumury. “There is no room for such intolerance and bigotry in our nation, especially by an elected official who is supposed to represent everyone of all races and religions. We call on David Williams to fully apologise for his comments and offer a full retraction on his website.”

NayaSurya
21 November 2011, 09:38 AM
Etown is a place I call home for most of my adult life and being here I can fill in some of the story not often covered.

Williams is a true barbarian.

He went to Louisville one year ago and called for the entire school system to be dismantled.

This is the sort of Ann Coulter-esque things this man says and does.

Steve Beshear, Beloved to all, was re-elected with a landslide victory over this pompous man.

Every single one of those kentucky folks that voted Beshear, spoke in one big giant voice to say that Williams was wrong and that Beshear did nothing wrong when he respected the Hindu ceremony. It was very wonderful to see the polls close and he be once again victorious. A small victory for humanity.

Jainarayan
21 November 2011, 09:44 AM
America is indeed a Christian nation. Christianity is the de facto state religion

That is not true at all. It is a nation largely of Christians, but in no way is there any state religion in the US. The Constitution prohibits it in the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Neither was the US founded on "Christian principles" as many like to claim. Many of the founding fathers and framers of the Constitution did indeed hold religious beliefs, but they took great pains to keep religion out of civil law. The US is a wholly secular nation in civil law. References to "In God We Trust" are simply a nod to religious tradition, and do not mention any particular God, nor is swearing on a bible in courts or at public functions mandatory. It can be declined. Look up any Supreme Court case dealing with religious freedoms.

Spiritualseeker
21 November 2011, 10:10 AM
Namaste,


(And, by the way, whether or not the story of Jesus was fabricated and stolen from myths and other religions does NOT matter to me at all.)



Namaste,

I do not mind that it was taken, but the Gnostics are more true to this origin. That is why Greek and Persian pagan mystics were allowed to be initiated into Gnosticism and Gnostics were allowed to be initiated in Persian and Greek mystery traditions. The reason why I mention it is because many Christians believe that their religion is unique and the only true religion. They love to talk about their monotheism and claim superiority over other paths. The reality is the most ancient of 'jews' worshiped multiple gods including a wife of their supreme god. The god that they worshiped came from Canaanite tribal deity. Eventually later people in this area decided to worship this tribal deity at the exclusion of others to show the superiority of their tribal deity. This is where the wrathful ignoramus deity of Judaism was born. The Gnostics themselves saw this deity as a lesser deity and even considered him evil. Later we know Christianity was birthed from other pagan mystery traditions. Its original intent was good. It was to initiate people into Brahman if you ask me. Though they called it other names, the aim was the same. But it got lost when unorthodox took root and thus a literal view of Christ and the bible was taken. Again the old ignorant deity was taken as an object of worship and then oppression rose. It is great to see Christians that are loving and this should be commended, but we can acknowledge that when Christians boast about their way, they usually have no idea about the roots of their religion.

To me I feel it is important to learn the histories of religions. Then you can see that things are not so dull. Take Satan for an example. He originally was a tester that their deity created in order to test his creation. Satan was not bad until later episodes of the bible where he is said to be cast out of heaven. Then this devil formed horns as there were pagan deities such as Pan (who was a nature deity with horns) in order to politically control people by taking away worship of 'false' deities. We see that this Satan evolved over time. Still to this day people are fearful of Satan, yet if they knew history they would see that Satan is empty and does not truly exist. What fear can come across our mind from a non-existent creature?

Grateful I am for this Dharma, I wish I could only be true to my words to express my gratitude.
Om Namah Sivaya

punkrainbow
15 December 2011, 10:41 PM
If we look past the heated culture-war stuff for a moment I think it's possible to have an interesting theological discussion about levels of 'falsity'. In one sense, all our concepts about 'God' (gods) are limited by culture and conditioned by language and may contain some elements that are objectively 'false'. This is just as likely with Christian conceptions as with Hindu ones. What this guy lacks is a sense of religious humility about 'his' vision of God.

Kali Bhakta
24 April 2012, 12:50 AM
Yeah, well, this just goes to show that protestations of secularism notwithstanding, America is indeed a Christian nation. Christianity is the de facto state religion, and currently Hinduism isn't given the same respect as Christianity.

It no more proves that America is a Christian nation than Richard Dawkins and a whole lot of his cronies harrassing the pope when he came to England proves that the U.K is militantly Atheist...And Christianity isn't technically the state religion because the consitution states otherwise.

America's most destructive elements are down to Capitalism anyway. It makes no sense for us to tar all Christians with the same brush, I'm a Shakta but I've heard Hindu's say things that I would never want people to think represented me and my worldview at all...

Blessings of the Divine Mother,
William.

Vitani
24 April 2012, 01:45 PM
People like this are all over. I very much doubt this person has any iota of a clue of what Hinduism teaches.

Have any of you ever heard of Bertrand Russell? He was a critic of Christianity and wrote a book called, "Why I am not a Christian." He once was quoted as saying, "The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves, and the wise always so full of doubts." And sadly, this is so true for people like that, who hold on to an ideology and shun all others, thinking they know it all.

Kali Bhakta
26 April 2012, 07:44 AM
^Unfortunately I often think that people like Russell and certainly Richard Dawkins who claim to be "critical thinkers" fall into fanaticism in a similar way but via pseudo-skepticism rather than religious zealotry.

Blessings of the Divine Mother,
William.

sanjaya
26 April 2012, 09:04 AM
It no more proves that America is a Christian nation than Richard Dawkins and a whole lot of his cronies harrassing the pope when he came to England proves that the U.K is militantly Atheist...And Christianity isn't technically the state religion because the consitution states otherwise.

America's most destructive elements are down to Capitalism anyway. It makes no sense for us to tar all Christians with the same brush, I'm a Shakta but I've heard Hindu's say things that I would never want people to think represented me and my worldview at all...

Blessings of the Divine Mother,
William.

William, I wish I could believe that this person doesn't represent the majority (or at least largest minority) of America. But I think the extent of Rick Santorum's success in the primaries/caucuses shows that these sorts of views are shared by many people in this country. I don't recall the specific figure, but I do know that over 30% of Americans identify themselves as evangelical. They may not live by the moral standards required of them, but one defining characteristic of all evangelicals is that they believe non-Christians, including Hindus, are going to hell unless we convert to Christianity. Christianity may not be the state religion, but it is the largest religion by far and is the assumed religion of all Americans. I genuinely believe the day may come when Indian Americans are actually expelled from this country for failing to convert to Christianity.

With full respect, I disagree with your statement that Christianity is not to blame. On the contrary, Christianity, the Bible, and the teachings of the gospels, are specifically to blame for the belief among Christians that Hindus are going to hell and must be converted (which invariably leads to hatred of Hindus). I will freely admit that there is a large number of good people in America who are Christian. But mind you: they are good people because they are bad Christians. They ignore Christianity's teachings on hell and conversion. The Bible teaches that we must be converted, that we are going to hell unless we comply with missionaries' teachings, and that the gods we worshiped centuries before Christians existed are false. I've read the whole thing, I have a pretty good idea what Christianity says about all of these things. You want to ignore Paul and the other apostles and stick to the teachings of Jesus? Good luck, the four gospels are largely redundant and comprise a small fraction of the whole Bible, and even they contain certain material that we Hindus would find offensive.

Many, including a few Hindu saints, refer to the Sermon on the Mount and point to the good teachings of Christianity. To this I would respond that even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Case in point: Hitler was a vegetarian and didn't smoke (or if you prefer, pick some other bad guy, and I can point to things he said that were true). Just because the Sermon on the Mount contains teachings that agree with Hinduism doesn't mean that Christianity is a good religion.

People like this politician are evil because they are Christians. Christianity is a fundamentally evil religion whose true adherants would have our culture destroyed. This doesn't mean we should bear ill will towards liberal Christians who eschew they more terrible teachings of their religion (and fortunately these people comprise the bulk of Christendom). But we should understand that being a good person and a good Christian are mutually exclusive. Good people who are Christians are good people precisely because they are bad Christians. The good teachings of Hinduism are fundamentally at odds with the evil teachings of Christianity. Christianity is a religion without redeeming merit, and is something to be avoided.

Jainarayan
26 April 2012, 09:59 AM
But I think the extent of Rick Santorum's success in the primaries/caucuses shows that these sorts of views are shared by many people in this country.

Rick who? Keep up with the times and stop spreading fear-mongering.

The Fate of Rick Santorum's Delegates - ABC News (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/04/the-fate-of-rick-santorums-delegates/&sa=U&ei=SVSZT6W-LqLE2gXzopG0Bw&ved=0CC0QFjAE&sig2=_hCxiqczo8s3x2BQ6lKuWQ&usg=AFQjCNGrvevrELWP-u9Op3tvbWyWiGlmqg)
Apr 10, 2012 ... Now that Rick Santorum is out of the race, what happens to his delegates?
Santorum has 285 delegates, according to the latest ABC News ...
abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/.../the-fate-of-rick-santorums-delegates/ -

Kali Bhakta
26 April 2012, 07:10 PM
TouchedbytheLord has summed things up with his link. If things were as Sanjaya says they were then I cannot see how this would have happened. And not all the conservative, Christian politicians are like him, Ron Paul is a Baptist and has happily assiocated with Hindu voters amongst others. Besides, many American Protestants belong to liberal organizations. And most of America's worst problems are down to Capitalism, its huge contribution to the ecological crisis for example, its corporate greed and the fact that gender and family structure there are being totally destroyed is all down to secularism not Christianity.

I will not accept that Chrisitianity not recognizing the salvation of non-members makes it an 'evil' religion. Besides, many of the greatest Christians have recognized that the eternal hell in the Bible is symbolic of lower states or that its length is merely perpetual/indefinite, Thomas Aquinas was amongst the latter who held this view I believe. Anyway, judging all Christian doctrine by the state of American Evangelism is a pure copout. Compare the similarities between the doctrines of Shankara and Meister Eckhart and try telling me that there is little to nothing of worth in Orthodox Christianity.

Blessings of the Divine Mother,
William.

Seeker123
27 April 2012, 02:30 PM
Compare the similarities between the doctrines of Shankara and Meister Eckhart and try telling me that there is little to nothing of worth in Orthodox Christianity.

Blessings of the Divine Mother,
William.

While I dont disagree with other parts of your post your quote above made me google Eckhart. This is what I found. You still see him as Orthodox Christianity?

he (Eckhart) was tried for heresy in the final years of his life. We do know that he disappeared from the public arena before the papal verdict, and is suspected by some of continuing his ministry in anonymity.

On 13 February 1327, he stated in his protest, which was read publicly, that he had always detested everything wrong, and should anything of the kind be found in his writings, he now retracts. Of the further progress of the case there is no information, except that Pope John XXII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XXII) issued a bull (In agro dominico), 27 March 1329, in which a series of statements from Eckhart is characterized as heretical; another as suspected of heresy (the bull is given complete in ALKG, ii. 636–640). At the close, it is stated that Eckhart recanted before his death everything which he had falsely taught, by subjecting himself and his writing to the decision of the Apostolic See (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_See).

In 1328, the general chapter of the order at Toulouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse) decided to proceed against preachers who "endeavor to preach subtle things which not only do (not) advance morals, but easily lead the people into error". Eckhart's disciples were admonished to be more cautious, but nevertheless they cherished the memory of their master.

Kali Bhakta
28 April 2012, 08:37 AM
Esotericism transcends exoterism so the fact that Eckhart was trialed doesn't matter. The exoteric dimension doesn't have to comprehend the more esoteric, not that these two terms can be applied easily to Christian doctrine) Al-Hallaj was also killed for heresy he's still revered as a great Sufi. Many Catholic intellectuals have high respect for Eckhart regardless and I don't think the church looks on him too negatively now.

Seeker123
30 April 2012, 01:53 PM
I don't think the church looks on him too negatively now.

You claimed in your last post that Meister Eckhart was orthodox Christianity. I showed you evidence that orthodox Christianity was not only against him but punished him as well.

Now you are stating the present day Church accepts him. Since you equate Eckhart to Sankara do you mean to say that the following Advaitic ideas are accepted by mainstream Christianity today?

I am God
I am sinless
There is one God, who is formless and everyone can discover that they are God.

MahaHrada
30 April 2012, 02:32 PM
It no more proves that America is a Christian nation than Richard Dawkins and a whole lot of his cronies harrassing the pope when he came to England proves that the U.K is militantly Atheist...And Christianity isn't technically the state religion because the consitution states otherwise.

America's most destructive elements are down to Capitalism anyway. It makes no sense for us to tar all Christians with the same brush, I'm a Shakta but I've heard Hindu's say things that I would never want people to think represented me and my worldview at all...

curses of Mother Mary
William.

A supporter of the pope the epitome of evil and an apologist of jesus christ, a enemy of Dawkins, and at the same time a shakta devoted to Kali, that will not work out. Kali is a warrior she loves garlands of freshly chopped off heads of enemys of Hindu dharma, These prophets of the black dharmas like eckhart, al hallaj et alia she likes to eat for breakfast.

Believer
01 May 2012, 10:41 AM
Namaste,

.......... And most of America's worst problems are down to Capitalism, its huge contribution to the ecological crisis for example, its corporate greed and the fact that gender and family structure there are being totally destroyed is all down to secularism not Christianity.
While we are out bashing the US, why not increase the laundry list to include attempting to dominate the world through its pop culture, KFC, McDonald's and Starbucks. Why not also add its vile ways of propping up greedy banks around the world during the 2008 financial meltdown. Why not call it the devil incarnate, but still ask for its security blanket. For those not in know, we are in the middle of the Presidential election season and people with solutions to all of America's problems are welcome to run for the office and fix everything. Every kid thinks he knows it all and when he turns 40 and looks back, he invariably says, 'how could I have been that dumb?' I wish some generation will break the cycle and acknowledge being dumb first and then grow smart later on in life.


Kali is a warrior she loves garlands of freshly chopped off heads of enemys of Hindu dharma, These prophets of the black dharmas like eckhart, al hallaj et alia she likes to eat for breakfast.
KaliMaa says: Crack, Snapple, Yum, Yum. Me wants more Xitian heads for breakfast. ;)

Pranam.

Kali Bhakta
01 May 2012, 09:58 PM
"You claimed in your last post that Meister Eckhart was orthodox Christianity. I showed you evidence that orthodox Christianity was not only against him but punished him as well."

My comment about esotericism transcending exoterism already debunks your argument here. Many Gaudiya Vaishnavas's don't comphrehend Advaita but they are still both part of Hinduism. This is the simpler, more coherent explaination, your argument falls apart.

"A supporter of the pope the epitome of evil and an apologist of jesus christ, a enemy of Dawkins, and at the same time a shakta devoted to Kali, that will not work out. Kali is a warrior she loves garlands of freshly chopped off heads of enemys of Hindu dharma, These prophets of the black dharmas like eckhart, al hallaj et alia she likes to eat for breakfast."

I'm not much of a supporter of the pope actually since I'm not fond of Vatican 2 but I still don't think that this excuses Dawkin's behaviour. Being an 'enemy of Dawkins' is incompatible with being a Shakta? Wow, now I'm confused!

MahaHrada
02 May 2012, 06:50 AM
"Being an 'enemy of Dawkins' is incompatible with being a Shakta? Wow, now I'm confused!

I agree you must obviously be confused when you think that a supporter of the vatican, catholicism and islam, opposed to critics of these ideologies, can be at same time a shakta, people like Dawkins are a weapon in the hand of kali, since they debunk the irrational, oppresssive and sometimes outright evil ideologies of Islam and Christianity. So rational people like Dawkins or Harris are powerful allies in ther war against adharma. The sole reason for devi to appear in her ugra avatar is to destroy the asuras the enemies of dharma in a war and the sword in her hand and that of the Kalki avatara is indeed meant to be a sword of knowledge also, which is able to cut clean through evil customs and irrational doctrines.

Seeker123
02 May 2012, 02:53 PM
"You claimed in your last post that Meister Eckhart was orthodox Christianity. I showed you evidence that orthodox Christianity was not only against him but punished him as well."

My comment about esotericism transcending exoterism already debunks your argument here. Many Gaudiya Vaishnavas's don't comphrehend Advaita but they are still both part of Hinduism. This is the simpler, more coherent explaination, your argument falls apart.


Sankara was no esoteric. He was and has always been considered as an orthodox Hindu. If this was in Christianity Sankara would have had to hide around and recant his sayings instead of freely traveling the length and breadth of India winning intellectual arguments based on his interpretation of Vedas, gaining respect/following and establishing mutts. The beauty of Hinduism is people who follow Advaita, Vishistadvaita, and Dvaita and a host of other philosophies can coexist peacefully. Again all 3 are widely respected as Acharyas not esoteric individuals.

So esotericism has transcended exoteric in Christianity already? I would love to see a mainstream Christian Padre's face when you say "I am sinless; I am God........"

cuddledkitty
07 May 2012, 08:42 PM
According to Republicans, Turkey is a theocracy ruled by Islamic terrorist and war must be declared upon them.......
According to reality and common sense Turkey is a secular country and ha led military strikes against terrorist activities constantly

According to Republicans Cuba is the greatest threat to the world. ironically after Fidel Castro condemned their behavior.............
According to reality Cuba has as little power as a ant has against my brothers 16 inch long boot.

According to republicans they are Christians and wish to see children compete with Chinese education system and provide for people...........
According to reality Republicans say that government should not pay for school and parents should atleast loan their kids 15,000$ a year to help go to school and all medical care by government is wrong and its best to let the weak die.

Do i need to continue?

Fact stands Republicans are terrorists and have always used violent threats and ideals leading to the MOST wars in USA history and according to my native Country Republicans are deemed "The Anarchist Plutocratic party". According to Japan they are the rulers of oppression, and i am a conservative. Never worry about a fool my friend :)

sanjaya
22 May 2012, 01:25 AM
Rick who? Keep up with the times and stop spreading fear-mongering.

The Fate of Rick Santorum's Delegates - ABC News (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/04/the-fate-of-rick-santorums-delegates/&sa=U&ei=SVSZT6W-LqLE2gXzopG0Bw&ved=0CC0QFjAE&sig2=_hCxiqczo8s3x2BQ6lKuWQ&usg=AFQjCNGrvevrELWP-u9Op3tvbWyWiGlmqg)
Apr 10, 2012 ... Now that Rick Santorum is out of the race, what happens to his delegates?
Santorum has 285 delegates, according to the latest ABC News ...
abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/.../the-fate-of-rick-santorums-delegates/ -

I think I may have failed to communicate my point. The odds were always against Rick Santorum, but the extent of his campaigns success is cause for Hindus to most certainly be fearful. A Republican contender needs 1144 votes to win the nomination, which I take to mean that there are 2288 delegates available. Santorum won 253, which is slightly over 10% of the Republican vote. Assuming that a random sample of Republicans went to the polls and that half the country is Republican (an ironclad assumption given the nation's polarization), that means a full 5% of the population wanted Santorum to win. 5% of the nation thinks it's more important for Hindus to convert to Christianity than for the economy to improve. There are over 200 million registered voters in America, which means we have about 10 million Americans who hold this view. Smaller percentages have accomplished worse deeds than the forced conversion of Hindus. In 1932 there were fewer than 12,000 members in the German Nazi party. And yes, the comparison between evangelical Christians and Nazis was intentional. I've had honest enough conversations wiht evangelicals to know that they really would kill off Hindus who refused to convert under slightly different circumstances.

I understand your aversion to militant action based on fear, and militant action is not what I suggest. But it's only "fear-mongering" if the fear is illegitimate. Consider the beliefs of these people for a moment. We're talking about people who believe that my cousin's five year old is going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity because she raised him Hindu (as though being raised Hindu is less than ideal). Have you ever accidentally touched a candle flame when doing aarti to God? It's an extremely painful sensation, one for which God saw fit to give us a reflex to escape without our hands even sending a signal to our brains. This is because fire is incredibly detrimental to our flesh, and to even experience it for a few seconds is horrendous. Yet an eternity of this is what the Christian god would have in store for every Hindu child, if this god existed. And for that reason alone I am thankful he does not. So yes, I reiterate my earlier statement that Christianity is a religion without any redeeming merit. It is outright evil. No, not pure evil, and perhaps that is what makes it truly insidious. If Christianity taught nothing about forgiveness or care for the poor it could be easily dismissed along with Nazism. But beause it teaches these things it plants the seed of doubt in your mind. It makes you wonder what is going to happen if it's true, and causes you to ponder the possibility that you might go to the Christian hell when you die. The best lies are mostly true, and we do indeed see some truth in the Bible. Once again I will say that this religion is evil and ought to be avoided.


TouchedbytheLord has summed things up with his link. If things were as Sanjaya says they were then I cannot see how this would have happened. And not all the conservative, Christian politicians are like him, Ron Paul is a Baptist and has happily assiocated with Hindu voters amongst others. Besides, many American Protestants belong to liberal organizations. And most of America's worst problems are down to Capitalism, its huge contribution to the ecological crisis for example, its corporate greed and the fact that gender and family structure there are being totally destroyed is all down to secularism not Christianity.

I will not accept that Chrisitianity not recognizing the salvation of non-members makes it an 'evil' religion. Besides, many of the greatest Christians have recognized that the eternal hell in the Bible is symbolic of lower states or that its length is merely perpetual/indefinite, Thomas Aquinas was amongst the latter who held this view I believe. Anyway, judging all Christian doctrine by the state of American Evangelism is a pure copout. Compare the similarities between the doctrines of Shankara and Meister Eckhart and try telling me that there is little to nothing of worth in Orthodox Christianity.

Blessings of the Divine Mother,
William.

If you say so, I haven't read him. What I will point out is that however the Christian chooses to rationalize belief in hell, the fact is that he believes Hindus are going there. You cannot get away from the idea that belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation without rejecting the Bible. Case in point: the very liberal Christianity you alluded to. What separates liberal Christians from other Christians is that they reject parts of the Bible as being true. They support things like being gay, sex before marriage, creationism, and various other things that are taught in the Bible. Now I agree with you that liberal Christians are better than other Christians. But this means that being a good person is antithetical to being a good Christian. Liberal Christians are good because they reject part of the Bible. And this is my point: the Bible teaches evil.

I know the two of you don't want to believe that all Christians are demons. And I grant that many, perhaps even most evangelical Christians aren't bad people. But I dare any of you to sit down with an evangelical Christian, get him to stick his finger in the fire, and then have him tell you with a straight face that a Hindu child is going to the eternal fire of hell for his devotion to Bhagavan. I know a few evangelicals who could do this; but most probably couldn't. I think most of them know at some level that the Bible teaches evil. The supposed word of God disagrees with their personal conscience, and still they are asked to accept these words on paper over what their own minds tell them.

But despite all that they keep paying tithes to their church, saying hallelujah when the pastor says that there is no salvation outside of Christ, and funding missionaries to go to India, effectively steal children from their parents, convert them to Christianity, and send them back to sow familial discord. And they call this "family values!" What do you call a religion that causes good people to do evil more often than it causes them to do good? I don't know about you, but I will never believe the lie that there is anything good about Christianity.

sanjaya
30 May 2012, 09:08 PM
To anyone who still believes that Christians in America do not have any intention to oppress Hindus, here's an interesting story from today's news:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/30/us/tennessee-mosque-controversy/index.html

Now, I have no love for Islam, and from an academic point of view I would agree with the lawyer's assertion that it is a political force rather than a religion. But take heed, Islamophobia is easily redirected towards Hindus. After all, who can tell the difference between all those brown people?

Make no mistake: evangelical Christians would quickly deny Hindu Americans our rights as citizens, and we should use our political power to oppose Christianity to whatever extent we can.

Jainarayan
31 May 2012, 09:36 AM
we should use our political power to oppose Christianity to whatever extent we can.

Get out and vote. Put forth a referendum to change the zoning and notification ordinances. Start petitions. There's your political power. Use it. Stop the Chicken Little "the sky is falling" hyperbole and self-victimization.

A massive Hindu temple and community center is being built right in central NJ without so much as a whimper against it from the local communities. If "Islamophobia is easily redirected towards Hindus" do something pro-active instead of pissing and moaning about it.

Btw... that's the Bible Belt in that story. They don't like blacks, Jews, Catholics, gays, Asians, Hindus, Muslims or anyone who is not a white Baptist. Don't feel specially persecuted as a Hindu. The rest of the US doesn't care. Only in 1964 did it become legal for an interracial couple to marry in the south. Is it changing? Yes, slowly but surely, though not fast enough.

We have Sikhs, Muslims, Hassidic Jews, Hindus and east Asians here, with almost no one noticing each other. There has yet to be a news story of any member of one of those groups being harassed or injured. Look up a physician in any directory, or go into any hospital and what do you find? Indian physicians. Apparently they're respected enough by white America to have thriving practices.

sanjaya
03 June 2012, 02:55 AM
Get out and vote. Put forth a referendum to change the zoning and notification ordinances. Start petitions. There's your political power. Use it. Stop the Chicken Little "the sky is falling" hyperbole and self-victimization.

A massive Hindu temple and community center is being built right in central NJ without so much as a whimper against it from the local communities. If "Islamophobia is easily redirected towards Hindus" do something pro-active instead of pissing and moaning about it.

If you've read my other posts on this topic in various threads, you'll find that this is my consistent message. I have no argument with the statement that Hindu Americans should vote against the Christian agenda. As for the Hindu temple being built in NJ, I'm glad to hear that Hinduism thrives in one of the less Christian areas of the country. But as you say, the primary opposition to Hinduism is in the Southeast of America. Last I checked, I as a born American have the same right to religious freedom in any state, and should not be discriminated against on account of being Indian or Hindu. Does it not trouble you that I would encounter more opposition in the Southeastern United States for the free practice of my religion than I would in New Jersey?


Btw... that's the Bible Belt in that story. They don't like blacks, Jews, Catholics, gays, Asians, Hindus, Muslims or anyone who is not a white Baptist. Don't feel specially persecuted as a Hindu. The rest of the US doesn't care. Only in 1964 did it become legal for an interracial couple to marry in the south. Is it changing? Yes, slowly but surely, though not fast enough.

I'm not sure this lines up with my own experiences. I've spent time in the deep south, and with the exception of people in rural areas, evangelical Christians are not racist. While I hate evangelical Christians, I'm not going to misrepresent their beliefs; I freely admit that they've gotten over their discrimination of people based on race. They would have no problem with Asians or blacks as long as they are Christian. And the success of Rick Santorum among this demographic indicates that they have little problem with Catholics. Likewise, you'll be hard pressed to find outright discrimination of Jews. After all, these are the people who have to return to Israel in order for Jesus to be able to return and wipe out all the Hindus (on a sidenote, I find it humorous that India equally supports Israel due to our common enmity with Muslims, not that I disagree with this position).


We have Sikhs, Muslims, Hassidic Jews, Hindus and east Asians here, with almost no one noticing each other. There has yet to be a news story of any member of one of those groups being harassed or injured. Look up a physician in any directory, or go into any hospital and what do you find? Indian physicians. Apparently they're respected enough by white America to have thriving practices.


No doubt you are aware that after 9/11, Sikhs were the targets of violence due to misidentification as Muslims. Rajan Zed's historic Hindu prayer in the U.S. Senate was, just a few years ago, interrupted by evangelical Christians uttering imprecations against "idol" worshippers. I could easily reference Google to find cases of evangelicals opposing the construction of Hindu temples. I'm glad that you have never experienced discrimination by your fellow American citizens for being a Hindu, but there are those in this country who have experienced it. As for Indian physicians, the presence of Indians in professional fields says almost nothing about the views of the general public. The scientific community has always been more oblivious to race and religion than the rest of the world. I don't know much about medicine. I do know about my own field though; the Indian astrophysicist Subramanyan Chandrasekhar held a prestigious position at the University of Chicago at a time when Jim Crow laws prevented him from teaching classes (apparently the locals didn't discriminate between blacks and Indians). Yet by the logic you espouse, his recruitment as a professor of physics in the mid-twentieth century indicates that Americans had already gotten over race-based discrimination. Or to use a more timely example, the election of a black President in America does not seem to quell vilification of him among conservative Christians on account of his race. My guess is that Indian physicians thrive in America because they are good doctors, not because evangelicals have any love for Hindus.

Jainarayan
03 June 2012, 03:32 PM
Namaste.

I think we're on the same page, on the whole.


If you've read my other posts on this topic in various threads, you'll find that this is my consistent message. I have no argument with the statement that Hindu Americans should vote against the Christian agenda. As for the Hindu temple being built in NJ, I'm glad to hear that Hinduism thrives in one of the less Christian areas of the country. But as you say, the primary opposition to Hinduism is in the Southeast of America. Last I checked, I as a born American have the same right to religious freedom in any state, and should not be discriminated against on account of being Indian or Hindu. Does it not trouble you that I would encounter more opposition in the Southeastern United States for the free practice of my religion than I would in New Jersey?

It certainly does bother me. It bothers me that there is prejudice and ignorance of every stripe in the southeast and southern US. Florida produces not only concentrated orange juice... it produces concentrated stupidity. They can't even vote properly! I think you know what I mean. ;)

One of the reasons I would not live anywhere else in the US except the NE or the west coast is because they are blue states. Say what one will about NJ and the Jersey jokes, and how corrupt our state gov't has been, and what a nanny state it is (wait, there's a positive about NJ in here somewhere :D) but NJ, NY, CT, VT, MA are very liberal. Overwhelmingly live and let live. Oh yes, we have our share of morons like those who attacked Sikhs after 9/11. That was an abomination. I'm not saying this is a utopia. You wouldn't catch this white-boy walking through Newark, or Harlem or the Lower East Side of NYC after dark.


I'm not sure this lines up with my own experiences. I've spent time in the deep south, and with the exception of people in rural areas, evangelical Christians are not racist. While I hate evangelical Christians, I'm not going to misrepresent their beliefs; I freely admit that they've gotten over their discrimination of people based on race. They would have no problem with Asians or blacks as long as they are Christian.

I'm certainly glad to hear about the racial non-issue. Thanks for pointing that out. But I wonder which is worse... you're "less than human" if you're non-white, or "less than human" if you're non-Christian (I know "less than human" is kind of melodramatic). It seems we have to choose where these people are concerned. That's not acceptable, but I fear it's going to be a long time before these prejudices themselves are marginalized.


And the success of Rick Santorum among this demographic indicates that they have little problem with Catholics. Likewise, you'll be hard pressed to find outright discrimination of Jews. After all, these are the people who have to return to Israel in order for Jesus to be able to return and wipe out all the Hindus (on a sidenote, I find it humorous that India equally supports Israel due to our common enmity with Muslims, not that I disagree with this position).

Yeah, Catholics have made in-roads in the south and southeast. I don't know if you are old enough to remember the fear that swept the US when JFK was the first Catholic to run for president. They thought he was a puppet for the Vatican. [edit: I just saw your age... you probably don't know of the reactions to JFK and his run for the presidency; I was only 7 at the time).


No doubt you are aware that after 9/11, Sikhs were the targets of violence due to misidentification as Muslims. Rajan Zed's historic Hindu prayer in the U.S. Senate was, just a few years ago, interrupted by evangelical Christians uttering imprecations against "idol" worshippers. I could easily reference Google to find cases of evangelicals opposing the construction of Hindu temples. I'm glad that you have never experienced discrimination by your fellow American citizens for being a Hindu, but there are those in this country who have experienced it.

The Senate prayer is what I was referring to elsewhere. But if I recall correctly he was soundly chastised and mocked for his intolerance. I could be wrong though.

I've never faced discrimination for my religion but I've faced it for another reason... one that touches my life as much as anything having to do with religion. It's probably the main reason why I abandoned all forms of Christianity.


As for Indian physicians, the presence of Indians in professional fields says almost nothing about the views of the general public. The scientific community has always been more oblivious to race and religion than the rest of the world.

Agreed. But what I mean is that with the prevalence and success of Indian professionals, especially doctors, says something about how they are viewed and accepted. But again, that's in this area.


Yet by the logic you espouse, his recruitment as a professor of physics in the mid-twentieth century indicates that Americans had already gotten over race-based discrimination.

No, no... if I gave that impression I apologize. I am all too aware of all kinds of discrimination that was prevalent in the US in the 20th century, and even into the 21st.


My guess is that Indian physicians thrive in America because they are good doctors, not because evangelicals have any love for Hindus.

Fortunately we don't have very many evangelicals in this area of the country. If we do, they keep a low profile, given what I said before about the area being a concentration of blues state.

As for the rest of the country, the joke and irony is on the evangelicals, having to swallow their prejudice if they are going to Indian doctors. And I love irony.